ti history?

[racer5]

Can anyone help me clear this up? Serotta says in its history that in 1993 "it introduces the first double-butted titanium frameset, the Legend Ti." I first thought that meant Serotta was the first company to offer double-butted ti. But maybe all it means is Serotta first offered its own double-butted ti frame in 1993. Because I thought that Merlin was selling the double-butted Extralight in 1992, a frame designed by Rob V over at Seven. Was Serotta making ti frames (butted or not) in '92? Not clear on their website history. Who can help this aspiring ti historian? Thanks!

[Dr. Doofus]

does it matter?

my dad wears ties

he likes em

[SoCalSteve]

Maybe an email to James or Ben at Serotta would clear it all up for you. Or, Tom Kellogg (who is a frequent poster on this Forum) could help as well.

Good luck and Happy New Years to you,

Steve

PS: Welcome to the Forum (I see that this is your first posting).

[Ti Designs]

Can anyone help me clear this up? Serotta says in its history that in 1993 "it introduces the first double-butted titanium frameset, the Legend Ti." I first thought that meant Serotta was the first company to offer double-butted ti. But maybe all it means is Serotta first offered its own double-butted ti frame in 1993. Because I thought that Merlin was selling the double-butted Extralight in 1992, a frame designed by Rob V over at Seven. Was Serotta making ti frames (butted or not) in '92? Not clear on their website history. Who can help this aspiring ti historian? Thanks!


That would be a Legend Ti, serial # 54L-0001, I sold that frame!!! You are correct, the Merlin Extralight was out for almost a year at that point. I think we're talking about the difference between internal and external butting here. Rob Vandermark was very interested in the new Serotta Ti bike. The S-bend chainstays didn't show the ripples that the Merlins had at the bends that year. Ben had a little talk at my shop later that year to let people know about the bike line. Rob showed up, sat in the back, and when the tubing sample was passed around he pulled out his digital calipers and started taking notes. But I'm sure Ben has taken the Seven factory tour wearing the glasses with the nose...

[PsyDoc]

I bought a Merlin Extralight that arrived at "Two Wheeler Dealer" in Brea, CA in April/May of 1992. The Extralight did not have the "ripple" in the chainstays that were oh so obvious in the 1991 Extralights. I also recall seeing a Serotta Legend Ti frame being unpacked at Sportmart(?), but I cannot recall when. Though I know it was after I had been riding my Extralight for a few months...maybe some time around August/September. The one thing I recall about the Legend, which the mechanic let me hold, was the flaring of the seat tube. What caught my eye was that just where the transition went from smaller-to-larger there was a distinct uniform line that suggested, to me at least, that they were two separate tubes that were welded together to make that transition. I have never seen that line since on a Legend ti frame.

[David Kirk]

I can't really reflect the timing of stuff done by Serotta compared to anyone else. I can give a few details though.

There were never any tapered tubes that were made up from sections welded together..........not even prototypes. The early swaging process did leave a definate transition mark so that is most likely what you saw PsyDoc.

The "S" bending of the chainstays was and still is ripple free. It was a marvel to many other builders then as it is now. Many still can't make a ripple free bend. If they saw how simple it was to do it they would have been shocked. In fact we didn't even have to hide the equipment when other builders visited because no one would ever have thought that tool was the secret. One of the cool Serotta features was the tapered chain and seatstays. It's taken over 10 years for most folks to catch up to this. The mechanical reasons for the tapered tube are well known but some other Ti builders said it didn't actually apply to Ti for some reason. I know the reason that they thought it unimportant. It was because they couldn't do it.

The Serotta main tubes were tapered (swaged) as well as butted (change in wall thickness). I think no one would dispute that Serotta was the only one to have this feature. Again the process to do this was very simple in concept but very fussy to actually do. At first there was a high reject rate. As the process was refined the reject rate became very low. Many didn't believe that the Serotta tubes were actually butted........they thought that Serotta's "butting" was actually just the change in diameter (tapering). I can tell you with 100% certainty that the tubes were both butted and swaged.

When Merlin or anyone else made butted tubes I really don't recall. It wasn't the focus at the time.

That's about all I remember or at least all I can share.

Happy New Year!

Dave

[Tom Kellogg]

Merlin started producing butted Ti frames (Extralights) in '91. The first butted frames were prototyped in '90. The idea at the time was that they were to be the Lemond Titanium frames. Lemond would have an exclusive on then for a few years. Merlin had been working with Bob and Greg ever since I designed and painted, and Merlin built the Team Z titanium frames the year before. In the end, Merlin never came to an agreement with Bob. As I recall, he felt that the cost of the frames was just too high. So Merlin introduced them as Extralights, and the rest is history.

Although Rob headed up the "Extralight" project, it was one of Merlin's founders, Gwyn Jones, who developed the idea, wrote the necessary spreadsheet formulas and gave the marching instructions for the project. He never got credit because he felt that it would be better for Merlin if some of the mid level people got more credit. He was always the silent guiding guy behind the scenes. Without him, Merlin never would have existed, grown, or survived. Gwyn has gone on to other things, but many of us would be in a very different place if it were not for him.

Chain stay ripples; Boy, those were ugly, wern't they? David, you are right about Rob and the ripples. Until he went to that little get together, he told the Merlin top brass that the ripples were impossible to get rid of. Well, you know how that goes. We actually got rid of them pretty quickly once the project head was shown that it was possible.

Titanium butting; Merlin started butting using outsourced centerless grinding. Works great, although the outsourcing did cause some inconsistancies at times. That technique, while perfectly valid, is not up to the current requirements of ultrathin tube walls. Now that Merlin is starting to use some 6/4 tubing, they are getting tube walls down to tissue paper range and centerless grinding no longer cuts it (so to speak). Over the years since the Extralight was first produced, there have been any number of butting techniques used from DOM and centerless grinding to hydroforming and chem-milling. It all works. The different trechniques do have different effects on grain structure, but honestly, I don't see it as an issue since we don't see titanium frames breaking apart all over the place.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL! DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE :no:

[davids]

Every time I start getting blase about this little forum, we get a thread like this! First-person technology history from Serotta and Merlin, and a "I-saw-it-happen" anecdote from another insider!

Guys, thanks so much for sharing. And I'll second Mr. Kellogg's wishes - HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!

[SoCalSteve]

This is an amazing forum!

Thanks to one and all for all the great contributions and to Ben and Co. for keeping it alive and well.

Steve

[CNY rider]

The posts above mark this as the best forum for cycling discussion on the web, bar none.

Reminds me of an idea I forwarded to James when the survey came out on improving Open House: Send personal invites to Messrs. Sachs, Kirk, Kellogg, White, Barry and Pegoretti. Let them have a roundtable cycling forum with Ben, go for rides with us bike hounds, and take questions during the forum. Anyone think that kind of thing could ever work?

BTW, I should add I had a great time at Open House W/E, and this is not a gripe in any way, just an idea I had to make it even better. :banana:

[slowgoing]

Thanks to all of the contributors for taking the time to provide this snapshot in time. Most of us would have had no idea without your effort.

My vote for thread of the year.

[Serpico]

...

Reminds me of an idea I forwarded to James when the survey came out on improving Open House: Send personal invites to Messrs. Sachs, Kirk, Kellogg, White, Barry and Pegoretti. Let them have a roundtable cycling forum with Ben, go for rides with us bike hounds, and take questions during the forum. Anyone think that kind of thing could ever work?

...

uhh, no.

Serotta is a business that makes its money selling bicycle frames--there's no reason to invite others in the same business (even if they're not technically competitors).

It's interesting to think--the sheer amount bikeworld gravitas boggles the mind--of such a gathering, but under the Serotta banner it makes no sense, business-wise.

This forum, as part of the internet, is a sort of 'bottom-up' experiment in people organizing themselves. Turns out that the people who appreciate Serottas also appreciate the work of Dave Kirk, Richard Sachs, Dario Pegoretti, Curt Goodrich, Kirk Pacenti, Sacha White, Mike Zanconato, Tom Kellogg and several other builders--so we congregate here. It says much for Serotta's confidence that they allow it to happen, but again--this is individuals coming together on their own--not Serotta organized.

For Serotta to organize a 'top-down' event organized by the company makes no business sense. Serotta has a lot of name recognition--it might not be as powerful with the big dogs here, but if you went to another, less experienced forum and mentioned the builders above and Serotta, Serotta would have close to 100% name recognition--not so with the others. What this means is that for someone looking for a "custom" or "handbuilt" frame, Serotta is easy to find, the cats above you gotta know where to look--for Serotta to change this dynamic, especially at an official gathering would make no sense. You also have to figure that 99% of Serotta owners don't peruse this forum. Saying "We're glad you like our product, and check out these other cool builders" is not a way to shore up your customer base.

Perhaps you'd be interested in NAHBS (http://www.handmadebicycleshow.com/index.lasso?ad=2), a convention/show with many of the above mentioned builders, but not under the aegis of any particular company. Trade show might be the analogy.

I think it's important to understand this website is a part of Serotta (therefore potential customers might be lurking, ie this place self-moderates pretty well--you'll notice this website doesn't have the goofball threads or trolls that other forums do), while at the same time recognizing that this forum doesn't necessarily represent the thinking of Serotta "management"--it's the users that direct the way things happen here, and I think we're all incredibly grateful to Ben and Co. for the amount of latitude they allow us :beer: SEROTTA :beer:

Having said that, I think that Serotta--in its handling of this forum--should be mindful of the amount of "street credibility" and legitimacy in the cycling community, that the above mentioned builders confer on the company--just by their presence here. No doubt, Serotta is a hugely repected company that can stand on it's own, but the nod of approval by such luminaries in the field speaks volumes.

Yes, this forum and many of its members originated from the Hypermedia "Phorums", but if the above mentioned builders didn't respect Serotta they surely would have gone elsewhere (and there's always bikefanclub.com).

As a potential buyer (of a Serotta) I was pretty impressed by the cyclerati that post here--and I would guess others are as well. As I've stated before, this forum, its openness, it's self-moderation, etc was one of the main reasons I chose my Serotta Concours. Companies like MOOTs and Seven, who both make fantastic products btw, either have closed forums or kool-aid forums--the openness of this forum is a great selling point for saavy consumers.

And no, I'm hardly the starstruck type--trust me (I grew up listening to punk rock, the concept of celebrity has always been anathema to me--but expertise and mastery should always be respected), seeing cats like DBRK and the folks mentioned above--well I figured Serotta was the custom Ti folks to go with--figured they had to be pretty confident if they let people freely discuss, critique, compliment their products on a forum they hosted and openly link to.

What am I saying? I just want Serotta to know that the openness of this forum, and the breadth of knowledge and experience of the posters, is a big selling point. Rather than tolerate the framebuilders that congregate here--APPRECIATE it (I think Serotta does appreciate it), and it IS good for your business. If this had been a closed forum, a kool-aid forum, I would not be a Serotta owner today.

Yes the forum is beneficial to other builders--but they're customers aren't the same as Serotta's, and Serotta benefits just as much by the participation of the posters above. It isn't a one-way street when it comes to the benefits of the participants--all benefit from each others' participation.

Of course people shouldn't be doing business or hawking their wares here, but that's just common courtesy--the cats above have too much class to even be told that. The builders mentioned above build Serotta up, and Serotta builds them up. Not competitors. Vertical or horizontal alignment, I forget the type--but these folks have a different market than Serotta, and likewise Serotta is in a different market than them.

I'm sad to see the CSI go, but I'm glad--it wasn't Serotta's business model and was holding them back--for what they wanted to do, and how they wanted to be perceived. Now our favorite bike company--the custom, multi-material competition frame specialist, as well as the steel artisans we respect and revere--are no longer competitors.

Sorry for the long-winded rant, I'm just a newbie here and mainly listen.


disclaimer: all the above is simply imho, bro :beer: cheers


Yo SEROTTA>> love my brand new Concours, thanks for the excellent forum :banana: :D

[dave thompson]

Serpico: Great post!

[Smiley]

deleted

[Ahneida Ride]

Excellent Post. One of the best ever. :beer:

My sentiments exactly. I too purchased a Serotta precisely due to the
openness of this forum. ;)

[CNY rider]

Thanks for your obviously well thought out and well expressed post.

Maybe this will have to stay in the realm of fantasy. Business sense has never been high on my list of strong points. :beer:

[Serpico]

...

[Sandy]

Not quite as insightful as your initial post. :)



Sandy