Dufour and framebuilding

[siena01]

Like many of you, I am interested in GOOD (Do we have a definition yet?)watches ... especially those of the vintage manual type.

This interest has lead me to follow up on the recent Philippe Dufour references on this message board by doing a bit of reading on the man and his creations.

So how does this relate to bicycles? Check out the quote below that I found in an interview with PD. I think his explanation of the fabrication of a watch case (and violin) is very interesting and perhaps akin to the philosophies of "custom" framebuilders like E-R, Dario, TK, Kirk, etc.

Here's Dufour's quote:

"Now, they make a case with a CNC machine with, I don't know, four, five, six, seven axes. No problem, you know? It's perfect but it's dead, the material is dead. And they don't understand why and I say, "Listen, it's very simple." If you make a violin with a CNC machine ok? You take a piece of wood, you program your machine, bzzz, bzzz, bzzz, it's done. Ok? You make another cover, you put the cover, you stick it, you glue it. Your violin is perfect, but peculiar, he will never sound. It's dead! Because you didn't respect the vein of the wood. And you use only one wood, but in violin you have three or four different wood, must be a reason, you know? It's not just because it's nice to look at. A watch is like that, and the most important thing is the case."

[e-RICHIE]

here's a complete interview.
draw your own conclusions.
http://www.europastar.com/europastar/magazine/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000476650

[Len J]

here's a complete interview.
draw your own conclusions.
http://www.europastar.com/europastar/magazine/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000476650


Willie Henderson.

There are still craftsmen in the world....thank God. They remind us that the journey is at least as important as the destination, that the learning is as valuable as the tangible product, that investing oneself is the ultimate gift.

Len

[davids]

This quote resonated for me:

I follow the most traditional paths of watchmaking, but without the least nostalgia.

Remind you of anyone we know?

[e-RICHIE]

Willie Henderson.

There are still craftsmen in the world....thank God. They remind us that the journey is at least as important as the destination, that the learning is as valuable as the tangible product, that investing oneself is the ultimate gift.

Len


agreed - a certain pal bro' forumite sent me this to read:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743266358/102-7432224-2820961?v=glance&n=283155

[Catulle]

I think Dufour is a great guy, a wonderful craftsman, his work is outstanding, and you won´t find a better person with whom to chat over a beer (except Paris Hilton, of course).

However, please note that he outsources his cases as well as dials and some other parts. I don't think this detracts any value or merit from his watches, but to me it means that there are no absolutes.

Good is whatever makes you feel good.

:banana:

[Samster]

However, please note that he outsources his cases as well as dials and some other parts. I don't think this detracts any value or merit from his watches, but to me it means that there are no absolutes.

He also seems to use Gyromax balance wheels (Patek patented, though probably expired by now) among others... But whether he fashions these by his own hand on license, or outsources I wouldn't know. Off topic, but interesting to note that there are supposedly drag and aerodynamic issues involving the balance wheel of a watch. They are nice watches to look at. At those prices, they'd better be.

--sam

[David Kirk]

One of my personal favorites -

"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure." -- Albert Einstein

Dave

[YO!!!]

I awake and rewind my 100 year old Vacheron Constantin pocket watch.

No batteries required, just timely devotion.

[Grant McLean]

My taste runs a little more racy...

1960's Heuer manual chronographs, baby!!

http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/heuer/articles/carrera_article/heuer_carrera_article.html

-gee

[Fixed]

bro I thought I was doing good with a hamilton ventura cheers :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

bro I thought I was doing good with a hamilton ventura cheers :beer:


define "doing good" imho bro cheers.

[Fixed]

bro gift from my boss after i saved his life .cheers :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

bro gift from my boss after i saved his life .cheers :beer:




what - you destroyed the negatives imho?

[Fixed]

bro bossman had blood clot in his leg I saw the fax from his gen pra. and called my team mate a vascular surgeon he had the boss come in right them said he could have died if I had not got him to see my bro, .boss has been my pal ever since. I get wed a.m. off for group hill rides and a 150 hrs a year off for vac. and I get to ride my bike for my job sweet .i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[spiderlake]

bro I thought I was doing good with a hamilton ventura cheers :beer:

The Ventura is one fine watch! Elegant and refined but very distinct. It makes a statement.

Great minds must think alike! My "everyday" watch is a Hamilton Chrono (Model 8800) that is about 20 years old. My "hittin' the town" watch is a Maurice LaCroix Chrono Globe.

I have never seen another Hamilton like mine and went for the Maurice LaCroix because it was unique compared to all the Rolexes and Breitlings being sported here in Grand Rapids. No offense meant to Rolex and Breitling owners. FINE watches but they are just really really popular in this neck of the woods. Kinda like that song you really like until you start hearing it every five minutes on the radio.

[Grant McLean]

define "doing good" imho bro cheers.

that depends on your taste....

[djg]

Here's Dufour's quote:

"Now, they make a case with a CNC machine with, I don't know, four, five, six, seven axes. No problem, you know? It's perfect but it's dead, the material is dead. And they don't understand why and I say, "Listen, it's very simple." If you make a violin with a CNC machine ok? You take a piece of wood, you program your machine, bzzz, bzzz, bzzz, it's done. Ok? You make another cover, you put the cover, you stick it, you glue it. Your violin is perfect, but peculiar, he will never sound. It's dead! Because you didn't respect the vein of the wood. And you use only one wood, but in violin you have three or four different wood, must be a reason, you know? It's not just because it's nice to look at. A watch is like that, and the most important thing is the case."

I like the idea of a true manufacture and I don't mean to disparage the work that's going on here, but the analogy to violin making seems strained at best. A violin maker's highly variable response to heterogeneity in a piece of spruce (and from board to board)--and the importance of that response in getting towards something that will do what a violin is supposed to do--seems to me very, very different from whatever variability there might be in Dufour's construction (supposing he does it), or even finishing of a case.

Trying to reduce something beautiful and complex to a simple technical description may miss the point--most likely there's no technical description that actually does the job in any case (while a description that described all the right things might be sort of spectacular for those who could understand it). But trying to explain something complex by cheap retreats to magical language doesn't do much for me either. So maybe it's not so much like a violin?

[siena01]

djg,

I hear what you are saying and frankly I agree with the premise of your ideology. However, I also feel like I did Dufour a bit of a disservice by only pasting in that one segment of the interview. He in no way implied that he makes his own cases and there was a reason he made the watchmaking/violin analogy. These were his statements prior to the quote I posted earlier:

"The difficulty we have now, I would say, you can make the nicest movement and very often you don't find the right person to do the case. Because they don't know anymore how to do it. Because in a watch, in a repeater, the case has two purpose. The first purpose is to protect the movement and to hold the movement and hold the dial and hands. A normal watch is like that. Now a repeater is different because you have this first purpose, plus another purpose is to amplify the sound. It's like a violin.

And now I say, I always fight with casemakers and I tell them "I want a case made like last century. You know? Respecting the size of the vein of the gold, and the way it's done, the way it's spread and so on." And they say, "Well, we don't have the tools we don't have the people anymore."

[e-RICHIE]

snipped:
And they say, "Well, we don't have the tools we don't have the people anymore."


therein lies the rub. in another interview, this text appears:

"I go to extremes in life to do the best I can. In today’s modern movement, born with the 'renaissance’ of the mechanical watch, even in the best of these movements, everything is designed to be made on a machine. Please understand me when I say that even if the hand of man has its role to play, the architecture itself of the movement, like the design of its component parts, is created with machine manufacturing in mind. However, a machine is incapable of making bridges with rounded corners as are done by hand in my atelier."

despite the fact that watches, as well as bicycle frames, are
not made of wood, the metal does speak to you and tells you
what it will be. you can tame it to an extent, but that's it. if
you don't work with your hands, this analogy may be lost on you.

[Redturbo]

For my pal Allen :beer:

http://www.elishewitzknives.com/Watches.asp