Ser notta?

[Andrewlcox]

Is this a Serotta or a Ser notta?

The rear brake bridge looks wrong as well as gussets in the BB area?

http://bit.ly/1awPQ0V

I hope the link works. eBay newly listed as Ti frame.

Andy

[csm]

Straight chain stays and the rear drop outs don't look right....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[TPetsch]

That's no Serotta I've ever seen.

Serial number on the dropout is the instant giveaway.

[Ken Robb]

If we had a serial number we would know what it is. The HT extension looks Serotta-like. I agree that it lacks the later style rear drop outs. Serotta made a ti "Classique" that did not have Colorado Concept Tubing but I can't remember if the chainstays on that model were straight. That info might be in the Serotta catalogs we have posted on this site.
Oops! Did I miss a serial number on a chainstay/dropout?

Well maybe the decals are Serotta---------or maybe not.

[pbarry]

Looks like a solid seller that bought it second hand. Ask some questions. Still a fair deal at opening price, even if someone went to a lot of trouble to polish a Litepeed to look like a a Legend, and apply OEM decals.

[rwsaunders]

Follow the dropouts Grasshopper...

[Cat3roadracer]

The dropouts do not even look up to the quality of a Litespeed.

[Ken Robb]

My Litespeed had the serial number under the BB. The Winwood fork was a cheapie sold through a chain that was bought out by Performance Bike in California. It might be an ok deal if the price was cheap enough because there are some nice components on it.

[Andrewlcox]

The reply from the seller,

There is no number under the crank. I checked under the bottom bracket. There is a black plastic wire guide there. I found the number 1487 stamped by the rear derailleur hanger. I think it is a 2000 Serotta Saratoga titanium.

The dropouts don't look good at all.

I informed him it didn't look like a Serotta and suggested he remove the listing or at least don't call it a Serotta.

Andy

[don compton]

I wonder how long before it won't matter whether it's fake or not?

[Andrewlcox]

Seller says its a Saratoga Ti made by Serotta. I've never seen one and agree the quality doesn't match what I know to be a Serotta.

What do you know about Saratoga Ti bikes?

Andy

[rwsaunders]

This might explain the confusion...looks like a Ukrainian built Serotta from 2000...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/printthread.php?t=8062

[zennmotion]

Maybe a Diamondback or Mongoose Pro or something else made by TST- they used to do polished frames. If that's the case, it's a decent though unremarkable frame, certainly not Serotta quality.

[Andrewlcox]

My Grandpa told me I should learn something new everyday. Today is one of those days.

Andy

sellers reply,

You are mistaken. I have it confirmed from Serotta. I sent them the number on the hanger and pictures of the bike. It is a Serotta Saratoga. You need to do more research before you send an email like this.

Here is the email. Feel free to call her.

--------------------
Hi Josh,



This is most certainly a Serotta built Saratoga Ti. Are there any additional letters or numbers near the serial number? Unfortunately I am having a hard time finding any additional information on the frame.



Cheers,



Lindsey Gratton

Customer Service

(518)584-8100 x104

[cachagua]

Maybe the offshoring has been going on for longer than we thought.

[cachagua]

I will note that the last time I was in contact with Serotta customer service, they said they'd repaint my frame for $1500 plus shipping.

I didn't believe that either.

[bigreen505]

There are a few things about this that jump out to me:

This might explain the confusion...looks like a Ukrainian built Serotta from 2000...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/printthread.php?t=8062

Serotta, proudly hand made in Saratoga New York, uses the name "Saratoga" on a Ukrainian bike?


Maybe a Diamondback or Mongoose Pro or something else made by TST- they used to do polished frames. If that's the case, it's a decent though unremarkable frame, certainly not Serotta quality.

While you are right about the polish and "decent though unremarkable" comment, TST frames of that vintage have a chainstay bridge just behind the BB.


Cheers,



Lindsey Gratton

Customer Service

(518)584-8100 x104

Is anyone else surprised that amid all the layoffs, they still have someone working customer service?

We still haven't answered the OP's question "Serotta or Ser notta," but I have to vote for Ser notta, regardless of whether or not Ben put his name on the bike (isn't there a thread here somewhere about bad business decisions?), a Serotta it is notta.

[dave thompson]

The seller is mistaken when he calls it a 'Serotta'. It's a Saratoga, built by Serotta, just like a Serotta-built Ti Schwinn Paramount isn't a Serotta.

A Saratoga was built by Serotta to someone else' geometry and specifications.

[Ahneida Ride]

Is this a Serotta or a Ser notta?

Andy

Ser notta ? ouch ! :eek::):rolleyes:;):hello::p

[majl]

The seller is mistaken when he calls it a 'Serotta'. It's a Saratoga, built by Serotta, just like a Serotta-built Ti Schwinn Paramount isn't a Serotta.

A Saratoga was built by Serotta to someone else' geometry and specifications.
If the arrangement between City Cycle and Serotta was for Serotta to produce a run of frames with a specified geometry, and Serotta gets to keep their name on the downtube, how is this not a Serotta? Isn't that what a custom builder does - build frames to suit their customer's specs?

In the older thread that was linked, ClayM, the forum member who posted about the relationship between Serotta and City Cycle, is likely Clay Mankin, former owner of City Cycle who sadly passed away from a heart attack while riding his bike on Skyline Blvd in late 2005. I was new to the Bay Area cycling scene when this happened, but remember seeing many of the local cycling message boards mourn the loss of a local cycing icon. ClayM would certainly have known the story behind the Saratoga frame.

Look at this piece from the velonews "letters to the editor" section and see who the first comment was from:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/11/mailbag/fridays-mailbag-remembering-clay-mankin_9174

[jpw]

I will note that the last time I was in contact with Serotta customer service, they said they'd repaint my frame for $1500 plus shipping.

I didn't believe that either.

Serotta just announced a much better deal for repainting. Check it out.

[jpw]

The seller is mistaken when he calls it a 'Serotta'. It's a Saratoga, built by Serotta, just like a Serotta-built Ti Schwinn Paramount isn't a Serotta.

A Saratoga was built by Serotta to someone else' geometry and specifications.

and white label building is back on their agenda. what goes around comes around.

[Andrewlcox]

So according to ClayM

ClayM 04-28-2005 01:53 PM
Saratoga Ti

In 1999, City Cycle and Serotta together developed the Saratoga frame geometry for a steel frame to be made in Saratoga Springs. Around the same time, Ben was approached by a titanium fabrication company in Ukraine named Viktoria. The ti frames, highly polished, were nice but supply wasn't reliable and there may have been some QC issues. I think Serotta imported the Ti Saratoga in 2000 only. end quote

It looks like this bike wasn't built by Serotta in Saratoga It was imported from the Ukraine from a company named Viktoria. Then IMO the only thing Serotta about that bike is the decal.

I'll ask Ben on Facebook and see if he responds.

[pdmtong]

I recall seeing these frames at city cycle and asking clay about them. Much more affordable to me at the time than the $10k ottrott on the other stand

Apparently building contracted runs of frames for shops or fitters is part of the rebirth plan. Saratoga re-dux

[Seramount]

...just like a Serotta-built Ti Schwinn Paramount isn't a Serotta.

ok, a Ukranian-made frame isn't considered a Serotta. that's a fair assessment.

but a Serotta-made Paramount isn't a Serotta...?

'splain, Lucy...

[dave thompson]

ok, a Ukranian-made frame isn't considered a Serotta. that's a fair assessment.

but a Serotta-made Paramount isn't a Serotta...?

'splain, Lucy...

Serotta built the Paramounts for Schwinn, to fill Schwinn's specifications regarding the tubing used and the geometry. Serotta was merely a contractor.

[dave thompson]

If the arrangement between City Cycle and Serotta was for Serotta to produce a run of frames with a specified geometry, and Serotta gets to keep their name on the downtube, how is this not a Serotta? Isn't that what a custom builder does - build frames to suit their customer's specs?

In the older thread that was linked, ClayM, the forum member who posted about the relationship between Serotta and City Cycle, is likely Clay Mankin, former owner of City Cycle who sadly passed away from a heart attack while riding his bike on Skyline Blvd in late 2005. I was new to the Bay Area cycling scene when this happened, but remember seeing many of the local cycling message boards mourn the loss of a local cycing icon. ClayM would certainly have known the story behind the Saratoga frame.

Look at this piece from the velonews "letters to the editor" section and see who the first comment was from:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/11/mailbag/fridays-mailbag-remembering-clay-mankin_9174

IIRC, the Serotta built Saratoga didn't have Serotta branding. The downtube decal said Saratoga. Even the serial numbering system was different than Serotta.

[54ny77]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSAJ0l4OBHM

[Andrewlcox]

All,

I chatted with Ben on Facebook and here is what he had to say.

HI Andrew. It's not a Serotta and we would have never shipped it out with Serotta graphics. For a very brief time we imported some frames (a small quantity) from a company in Russia and we labelled them Saratoga. The quality was inconsistent as was the service, hence the brief relationship.

I think I may update the seller.

Do you think that's a bad idea? Am I being too passionate about the brand Serotta to get involved with a seller?

Andy

[dave thompson]

All,

I chatted with Ben on Facebook and here is what he had to say.

HI Andrew. It's not a Serotta and we would have never shipped it out with Serotta graphics. For a very brief time we imported some frames (a small quantity) from a company in Russia and we labelled them Saratoga. The quality was inconsistent as was the service, hence the brief relationship.

I think I may update the seller.

Do you think that's a bad idea? Am I being too passionate about the brand Serotta to get involved with a seller?

Andy

No. The seller is representing his bike as a Serotta, which it is not. From the mouth of Ben himself.

Looking at it another way, if the buyer of this bike thought he was buying a Serotta and discovered it really wasn't, it potentially could open a mildly expensive can of worms for the seller if he had to refund the buyers money. You are saving the seller money by giving him factual and important info. You're really helping him.

[Dude]

I used to have a Saratoga. The bike on eBay is a Saratoga. The ti Saratoga frames Serotta imported, the steel ones, sold at City Cycle and a few other stores were made in Saratoga springs.

A ti Saratoga was confusing because it was sold by by Serotta but not built by them. The seller was probably one of those confused individuals.

[Andrewlcox]

The seller replied and said he has learned so much about his bike since listing it on ebay. I wasn't the only one who contacted him. Apparently 2 others had contacted him as well and sent him links and information about his bike.

He has since changed the listing to reflect the fact that his bike was built in Russia and imported for Serotta.

Andy

[oliver1850]

I'd seen and bid on steel Saratogas before, guess I will avoid the Ti ones.

[Paint]

looks more like a "russian Ti" that serotta had built off site. The only reason why i suggest that, is due to the highly polished ti. These were not offered for very long, and i do believe they were saratogas.