What do you look for in a custom?

[sales guy]

I am curious what everyone is looking for in a custom?

The reason I ask is there are a ton of builders now. With NAHBS going, everyone is getting into it. Paint, badges, braze-ons, all the usual questions.

[MattTuck]

So, I'm guessing that we'll soon be seeing some posts in the classified section as you try to sell some stuff?

[br995]

Such an open-ended question, is this even answerable?

Are you asking what we want our custom bike to have? What we want from a builder? Why we choose one builder over another? Which part of a custom bike is the most important?

I'm not sure what you're looking to hear.

[Joachim]

It has to be a custom carbon builder, since steel is too heavy to race and I need a tall head tube. Ti is way too soft, maybe suitable for old guys, but not if you ride fast. Also, vertically compliant and laterally stiff. Builder that also does awesome paint, but definitely not a version of white, since only retired folks have time to clean that.

[sales guy]

Matt, I found the forum looking for LeMond info(google search). My first posting. It had the most complete info I could find but I need better images so the painter(Joe Bell) can get the frame correct. And I want to make sure on the components so I can get the bike absolutely correct.

Do I have stuff I don't use, sure, don't we all??? But that's not the reason I am here.

The question I had was more for my curiousity. I have had customs built before-Ritchey, Cyfac, Rivendell, Waterford, Serotta and others. And have helped many people get some customs. I am asking cause I have gone to NAHBS and seen tons and tons of bikes and sometimes, honestly, I wonder why some companies have a 7, 10, 13 yr wait when they, to me, look like nothing amazing. I know that may be a bit hurtful to those buyers and builders. But, some people are probably thinking, why the hell have I been wanting a Lemond from 1989!!!

[MattTuck]

Fair enough. Wouldn't be the first time a new member asks a series of questions (generic or not) to get their post count up, for the sole purpose of access to the classifieds.

As far as your question, if you view the custom buying experience as 'experiential', then I'd look for the builder who is going to give you the best experience... that usually means share of time, explaining details, ability to ask questions, iterate the design and collaborate on the frame.

If you're looking for just a 'tool', then you're probably more concerned with budget, quality of the build and short waitlist.

If you're looking for a piece of 'art', you're going to be more concerned with the execution, details and finish.

These are not mutually exclusive, but are the three big 'buckets' that I tend to think about.

[54ny77]

Liquidity other than frame deposits.

[sales guy]

Matt, I haven't read anything rules wise on anything. Actually, haven't headed to the classifieds yet. Been busy with these posts and the kids today. Ugh. I am posting and being polite like I always would be(no need to be told not to swear and stuff).

I personally would love a Sachs frame. Why? I hear they are amazing rides. Would I wait 10 years? Hell no! I want to ride it now! Which is why I kind of asked the question. What are people looking at that makes a builder take 7+ years on a build other than it is a one person operation and they are just busy.

I could see if the buyer was a pain and kept changing their mind. Or asked for a custom head badge or super detailed paint. But then I have seen stock older Salsa Ala Carte frames with the jalapenos painted on them that didn't take forever.

My customs have all taken upwards of a 4 months. Just depended on the frame and where and all that jazz. My Cyfac came from France. I ended up buying another frame from them and I haven't built it yet since I haven't figured out what I want on it and all.

I just find it odd. You know?

[Charles M]

what type of frame do you want...?

Without that basic decision made, this could be pages of useless info that doesnt relate to the road/ mountain/ cross/ steel/ ti/ carbon/ touring/ rain/ comfort/ race bike you're after...

[John H.]

1st thing I look for is the builder.
Does the material, joining method and style mesh with what I like and need?
Is his/her experience level and reputation something that I am comfortable with?
Can he/she translate what I want into a finished product? Some builders are very good at construction but not so good at translating or "getting it".
There is more to frame building than being able to make a nice looking frame.
My most recent experience with a custom frame is with Kent Eriksen. In May he made me a custom oversized tubed road frame with an oversized steerer/tapered fork.
When I ordered this bike my priorities were:
1.) Custom fit- I had been riding production bikes for several years. A 54cm is smaller than I like, and a 56cm is larger than I like.
2.) Comfort- the production bikes that I had been riding were too stiff. This is a genuine problem with production carbon frames. Everything is lighter, bigger and stiffer. At some point it translates into reduced comfort, chatteriness, noise, etc.
3.) Stiffness- sounds funny since #2 was comfort. But I did not want my ti bike to be a noodle. I wanted it stiff enough to descend well at high speed, corner with confidence, and respond when I jump on it.
The was accomplished by using 1" chainstays, a 1.5" toptube and 1.675" downtube, and a 44mm headtube for a tapered steerer fork.
He totally nailed it for me on this.
4.) User friendliness. Production frames are getting so high tech that sometimes they don't work as well as the older stuff. Things that bug me are internal cables, integrated headsets and BB30/PF30 bottom brackets.
Internal cables- great if you are running DI2- but no way that they work as well for mechanical shifting. Pain to set up, and increased friction means the shifting is not as good.
Integrated headsets- they make stack too low (in many cases, for sure in my case), and they get creaky and blow through bearings. I wanted a press-in King headset.
BB- same thing. BB30 tends to eat bearings and creak. Even with high end metal frames. I had a Ti mtb with a PF30 bb that I eventually sold because I could not get the creaking to stop. A threaded bb is quiet and smooth. I wanted a threaded King bb too.
5.) Aesthetics- I wanted the bike to look a certain way. Builder was able to nail that for me as well.
This will be my template for any future custom frames. I may get a custom carbon if I feel like a builder can make me one with the right amount of stiffness.

[sales guy]

Hey Charles. You know me. Same name as on FB.

I wasn't really looking for something so much as I have been pestered a bunch lately by people and it got me thinking, why and what? And then I asked a local builder/painter if they could do a paint job real quick, and he said, no, not for 13 years!!!!!!! I was like what the F!?

So that got me on the topic. After I posted about my LeMonds I am trying to get back to original.

Hey!, what ever happened with the job thing? Do I still need to send you the shoes?

Mike

[rnhood]

I think people looking for a custom bike want a special paint job, or perhaps a bike no one else has - kind of an individuality thing. Maybe they think buying a standard off the shelf frame is just not special enough for them. Some may need geometry not found on the standard frames available, although these are in the minority. Most frames can accommodate given the various components available and adjustability. Some may want a hand glued or welded frame for merely the "made in USA" decal and exemplary quality of construction. I'm sure there are several other reasons a custom built frame is needed. But I think the vast majority, of which I am one, will be perfectly happy on a good performing off the shelf bike, of which there are many on the market today. In general a custom will not be a better performing bike, just a different looking bike.

[sales guy]

I can understand the issues of fit. But again, this builder told me he couldn't even do a paint job for 13 years! I was seriously blown away at his wait time. I just needed a simple spray and clear. Nothing special and he was like can't do it. I'm not mad about it or anything, it just got me wondering why? and what are people asking for that are making these wait times in the double digits.

[Wisco]

Do you click with the builder (Assuming one-person show)? The rest is just details.

Seriously though, do you instant feel like you can and will entrust your multi-$$$ purchase with the person? If you don't walk away and keep looking. A custom frame is a luxury for most, so it has to appeal to you emotionally and that human connection to the builder is the first test.

Good luck

[FlashUNC]

As others have mentioned above, it's a confluence of a variety of factors, notably queue time, builder experience/specialty and preferred material and construction methods.

In my recent case, I had grown up watching LeMond win Tours on some beautiful lugged steel frames (and later some carbon stuff as well). After a decade plus of riding carbon, I started to get the steel itch again, and inquired with Della Santa about his queue time and bikes and philosophy (go fast road bikes, forget everything else). Ended up chatting for about a half hour and had a good feel for what he could build, and he got a sense what I was looking for. The heavens didn't open or anything, but I got the sense he'd be the right guy for the job. I mean, if he's good enough to LeMond, I figure he can put a frame under my fat butt.
Some snail mail exchanged with a fit form, and I was in queue and had a bike a few months later. I couldn't have been happier with the experience.

Experiences will vary widely from builder to builder. Just gotta find the right guy for you. It isn't as if we're lacking for choice these days.

[sales guy]

FlashUNC, that's kind of my point. Della Santa was a few months. Granted he is not as "popular" as the Vanilla, SpeedWagen, Sachs, IR, TP, Breadwinner and others right now. But again, double digit waits is insane even to sneak a simple paint job in. I don't know how people aren't pulling the plug and saying no thanks. I would love to have that issue of course with any product, but WOW!

[FlashUNC]

FlashUNC, that's kind of my point. Della Santa was a few months. Granted he is not as "popular" as the Vanilla, SpeedWagen, Sachs, IR, TP, Breadwinner and others right now. But again, double digit waits is insane even to sneak a simple paint job in. I don't know how people aren't pulling the plug and saying no thanks. I would love to have that issue of course with any product, but WOW!

Some of these guys have folks willing to wait and it's simple math at a certain point. If it takes x hours for someone to make something to the standard the client has come to them to produce, and there are only 24 hours in a day, and only one or two guys involved in the process, that queue sheet can fill up pretty quickly.

If Roland had come back to me and said "Look, I've got 15 bikes in queue, and you won't be getting anything until 2015." I don't know what my answer would have been. But he and the guys working in his shop are turning out about 30-35 bikes a year -- by his estimation -- and had mine done actually a little ahead of schedule. Ended up being delivered on time because the painter was a bit held up.

If people want, say, a Vanilla that badly, they seem to be willing to wait. I'm not, but I can understand -- especially for what is a luxury good -- plunking down a deposit until its your turn in line if that's what you have your heart set on and nothing else will do. I was lucky enough to get exactly what I wanted in a relatively short time.

[buddybikes]

Great short video on why just posted: http://vimeo.com/67816101

Yes I am biased, my carbon/ti is about to be cut and welded.

[sales guy]

Flash,

I am surprised Roland is only do that many?! I figured it was more.

[John H.]

So do you want a frame?
Want a pain job?
Want a paint job from a Holy Grail builder?
I am still unclear?
Many people could do your paint job in a reasonable time frame and for a reasonable price.
If that builder/painter quoted you 13 years it is not because he has 13 years worth of orders on the books.
It sounds like you don't need Joe Bell for this paint job. You could get it done quickly from Circle A, Russ Pickett or someone like that.

FlashUNC, that's kind of my point. Della Santa was a few months. Granted he is not as "popular" as the Vanilla, SpeedWagen, Sachs, IR, TP, Breadwinner and others right now. But again, double digit waits is insane even to sneak a simple paint job in. I don't know how people aren't pulling the plug and saying no thanks. I would love to have that issue of course with any product, but WOW!

[FlashUNC]

Flash,

I am surprised Roland is only do that many?! I figured it was more.

I got the sense he builds what he builds, and doesn't fiddle with what he doesn't want to do, and has managed to get to that level after several decades of hard work.

Told me point blank if I wanted fender or rack mounts to go somewhere else. If I wanted a 1 1/8 headtube, SAXMAX or other types of tubing, or vertical dropouts, etc etc. He does what he wants and what makes him happy and that's all.

If he's got a client list that keeps him in enough orders to keep him busy and his expenses covered, I don't think he needs to churn out bikes nor does he particularly want to.

Really an enviable position, imo. Do what you love on your own terms.

[sales guy]

John H.

I was looking for a local builder who could have done a fast paint job for a customer/friend. This builder said he was booked for 13 years. Which I am not mad by. Just super surprised as I didn't think his work was so overwhelming that I would wait 13 years.

Which led to the question of what do people want in a custom frame.

It was a conversation starter really. And since there are a ton of people on here, with custom and what not, I figured I would ask.
I'm personally not looking for a new frame. Well, not really. I have one in mind but they won't sell it to me do to me being in the US. Europe company and they are worried about insurance issues. So I have something in mind but can't get it.

So I was just wondering why and what people are waiting for.

[fuzzalow]

Roland is a great guy, one of the most effortless and funny conversationalists I have ever spoken to in the bike business.

I'm not sure it is fair to a builder to approach them to ask for what amounts to a have done a fast paint job for a customer/friend. Most builders care passionately about what they do and asking for something that is presented to them as perfunctory may not set their world alight. 13 years is pretty clear.

As far as why custom? As many answers to that as there are builders, clients and bikes.

[cnighbor1]

What do you look for in a custom? A frame builder whose name I can't begin to pronounce!!

[sales guy]

There are tons of those out there!

[pbarry]

I feel I got ripped off reading this far. :rolleyes:

[sales guy]

I feel I got ripped off reading this far. :rolleyes:

I am deeply sorry for your dissatisfaction in regards to this thread. Please be aware we will send you compensation in the way of Ed McMahon and your Publishers Clearing House entry. Please keep an eye out for it in the mail!

[WickedWheels]

John H.

I was looking for a local builder who could have done a fast paint job for a customer/friend. This builder said he was booked for 13 years. Which I am not mad by. Just super surprised as I didn't think his work was so overwhelming that I would wait 13 years.

Which led to the question of what do people want in a custom frame.

It was a conversation starter really. And since there are a ton of people on here, with custom and what not, I figured I would ask.
I'm personally not looking for a new frame. Well, not really. I have one in mind but they won't sell it to me do to me being in the US. Europe company and they are worried about insurance issues. So I have something in mind but can't get it.

So I was just wondering why and what people are waiting for.

Where are you located?

Personally, I would look for a connection to the builder. There are lots of great builders and great bikes. For me, as a LeMond fan like yourself, I would be looking at builders that built for the people you admired. Tom Kellogg, Craig Calfee. In my case, I went to school with Mike Zanconato and Marty Walsh, so I'd want to keep the business with the people that I know.

[sante pollastri]

So do you want a frame?
Want a pain job?
Want a paint job from a Holy Grail builder?
I am still unclear?
Many people could do your paint job in a reasonable time frame and for a reasonable price.
If that builder/painter quoted you 13 years it is not because he has 13 years worth of orders on the books.
It sounds like you don't need Joe Bell for this paint job. You could get it done quickly from Circle A, Russ Pickett or someone like that.

it's only about marketing,when people read that a builder has got a 5 years queue,they say:wow!
When people read that another builder gas a 8 years w.list,say:wowwow!!
When read 13 years queue......wow wow wow!!!
And these men take customer money 13 years before the "event".....it's a shame!

[fogrider]

walk the floor at NAHBS and talk to the builders. Don't tell them what you want, ask them what their philosophy of building bikes are. for me, I think I want someone that will be willing to tell me when my ideas are bad! I asked Paul Sadoff of rock lobster if he could build me a superlight wieght steel frame out of S3 tubing...he said sure, but he wouldn't use a full S3 tubeset and would swap out certain tubes to tune the ride.

in this business, reputation is everything so ask around...whenever I see someone on a bike from a builder I might be interested in, I try to talk to them about their experience. I have two rock lobsters...what does that tell you. but there are so many others to try too...here's a list of what I want for steel:
Mikkelsen, Della Santa, Soulcraft, Steelman, the guys on the top banner of this page...
if you really want a bike from Sasha White, how about a speedwagen? if you don't need custom, I hear they build them in batches and if you get in when they're building your size, the wait could only be months.

and why steel? with modern steel and modern parts, you can pretty much build a lightweight bike for the same weight as anything else out there today and get a great ride!

[Charles M]

Hey Charles. You know me. Same name as on FB.

I wasn't really looking for something so much as I have been pestered a bunch lately by people and it got me thinking, why and what? And then I asked a local builder/painter if they could do a paint job real quick, and he said, no, not for 13 years!!!!!!! I was like what the F!?

So that got me on the topic. After I posted about my LeMonds I am trying to get back to original.

Hey!, what ever happened with the job thing? Do I still need to send you the shoes?

Mike

LOL, I was wondering...

If you're looking to go back to original finish, just call me. I have a guy that's phenomenal at it and a couple bike makers use him to do first drafts of their stock paint and logos... Just Message me at FB.

And sure. I'll replace the Vittorias with the new ones : )