S&S Retrofitting - before and after

[eBAUMANN]

For those of you who have had your frames retrofitted with s&s couplers...

1) Did you notice any difference in the way the frame rides post-op?

2) Did your chosen surgeon express any concern about the tubing/butting being not ideal for couplers?

Folks like Bilenky seem more than happy to chop up any frame you hand em, but my cousin (studying under Carl at Vicious Cycles) communicated some concerns (based on comments from Carl) about my idea to retrofit my newly acquired Ti IF.

So, I turn to you guys...what say ye?!

[gone]

For those of you who have had your frames retrofitted with s&s couplers...

1) Did you notice any difference in the way the frame rides post-op?
Nope, not a bit. My S&S coupled frame is a Serotta CII.

2) Did your chosen surgeon express any concern about the tubing/butting being not ideal for couplers?
Not in my case because it was a steel frame. A friend asked Bilenky about coupling an Airborne Zeppelin and they said they wouldn't do it because of the ovalized downtube.

[DRZRM]

Nope, my IF ti Planet X feels unchanged to me. Bilinky did the work and was unconcerned, but that does not really answer your question. I was told not to chop a Serotta Legend because of butting, (it may have been advice from Dave Kirk here, which seemed like good advice to heed). I had never heard the same about IF ti.

[donevwil]

Had a ~62 x 62 custom touring bike retro'd by Steve Rex. Tubing is Columbus Neuron std diameter and I'm a big rider. Although frame was a bit flexy it rode well before retrofit. It did have a shimmy at about 35mph in cross or strong cross-head winds that could get un-nerving, probably should has been built with OS tubing. After retrofit the frame was noticeably stiffer (a small bit but noticeable) and the shimmy was moved up to ~45'ish and would never get out of hand. It probably saved that frameset for me. Still have it in the rafters 25 years later.

Rex is/was the go-to NorCal retrofit guy. He did initially say the he would have to evaluate the frame for suitability which I assumed meant butt length, but I never verified. My TT and DT are looonnng so they likely had very long thick sections.

[Wolfman]

I had a retrofit done to a 1998 steel IF CJ. Done by Elliott Bay Bicycles in Seattle. Nobody there even blinked an eye when I requested it.

It's been awhile since I had it done, but I honestly don't think it rides any differently. I still think it's an awesome frame.

[tv_vt]

Shipped a steel Fierte to Bilenky in April for S&S retrofit. Still waiting for it to show up. Am told the problem is with the powdercoater.

Hoping that's all it is...

[zetroc]

Shipped a steel Fierte to Bilenky in April for S&S retrofit. Still waiting for it to show up. Am told the problem is with the powdercoater.

Hoping that's all it is...

if it's the powdercoater I'm thinking of, I had a bike delayed there for a while too. it did show up and looks great, so I don't mind the delay.

[Peter B]

S&S couplings themselves will make no appreciable change to your bike's fit or handling save the +/-8 oz weight gain. Irrelevant in practical/functional terms.

Whether a particular frame is suitable has to do with the specific tube butting profile(s). Sometimes the concern is that where you will need to locate the couplers to allow boxing within checked-luggage guidelines may not be an ideal/acceptable place given specific tubing profiles and applications. In simple terms, you really don't want to hack into the thinnest part of a stressed tube to introduce a brazed, localized stress connection.

YMMV and be different than mine. So consider aligning with the maker, S&S.

http://www.sandsmachine.com/#retrofit

[tiretrax]

Whether a particular frame is suitable has to do with the specific tube butting profile(s). Sometimes the concern is that where you will need to locate the couplers to allow boxing within checked-luggage guidelines may not be an ideal/acceptable place given specific tubing profiles and applications. In simple terms, you really don't want to hack into the thinnest part of a stressed tube to introduce a brazed, localized stress connection.

+1
Bilenky feel confident about chopping anything that's (fairly) round and within the size that S&S makes (no oversized tubing). However, I spoke with numerous builders at NAHBS a few years ago, and they advised me not to retrofit my butted Ti Serotta.

[AngryScientist]

i had my Serotta chopped at Bilinkey. I actually went to the shop and talked to the guys about the bike, it's colorado concept tapered tubes. they said no problem, and the bike rides as good today as it ever did.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QL4JM-rEV1k/T16YQfQepoI/AAAAAAAAAZw/kkedklSlr2k/s640/IMG_0468.JPG

[ed510]

Nope, my IF ti Planet X feels unchanged to me. Bilinky did the work and was unconcerned, but that does not really answer your question. I was told not to chop a Serotta Legend because of butting, (it may have been advice from Dave Kirk here, which seemed like good advice to heed). I had never heard the same about IF ti.

I had my Legend Ti done by Bilenky a few months ago. They are artist and do so many they know the complexities of butted / tapered/ and shaped tubes. Easy way out on the tapered Legend Ti is to place top tube coupler way forward before the taper....it still fits in 26" sq travel box but looks funny to me. I asked they place top tube coupler as far to the rear as possible with the smallest 1.25" ti coupler. To accomplish this they machine the inside of the coupler in the rear half of the fitting. It came out beautifully and I cannot tell a difference in ride quality.

[eBAUMANN]

Whether a particular frame is suitable has to do with the specific tube butting profile(s). Sometimes the concern is that where you will need to locate the couplers to allow boxing within checked-luggage guidelines may not be an ideal/acceptable place given specific tubing profiles and applications. In simple terms, you really don't want to hack into the thinnest part of a stressed tube to introduce a brazed, localized stress connection.

This is exactly my/my cousin's concern...im not sure about the butting on my IF...is that something that can be measured/calculated accurately on a built frame? I assume so based on ed510's account about the legend...

[Pastashop]

We have a LBS that deals in tandems a lot. I spoke to owner about retrofitting a frame with couplers (a lot of the tandems he sells have those, as do some of the single frames). He said he has seen a number of retrofitted frames in for service, with problems associated with the couplers. Apparently they're largely press-fit (??) into the tube. If true, I can see how the connection would be susceptible to fretting corrosion. Am I jumping to conclusions here based on faulty info? Anyone have specific experience on that?

Another thing I'm wondering if it would be feasible to retrofit a coupling in the style of the Ritchey Breakaway?.. Anyone do that?

[gone]

We have a LBS that deals in tandems a lot. I spoke to owner about retrofitting a frame with couplers (a lot of the tandems he sells have those, as do some of the single frames). He said he has seen a number of retrofitted frames in for service, with problems associated with the couplers. Apparently they're largely press-fit (??) into the tube. If true, I can see how the connection would be susceptible to fretting corrosion. Am I jumping to conclusions here based on faulty info? Anyone have specific experience on that?

Another thing I'm wondering if it would be feasible to retrofit a coupling in the style of the Ritchey Breakaway?.. Anyone do that?
Unless the technology has changed (doubtful) I think your LBS guy is misinformed. The couplers are brazed in, not press-fit. The only exception I can think of is the obvious one: carbon.

[sandyrs]

We have a LBS that deals in tandems a lot. I spoke to owner about retrofitting a frame with couplers (a lot of the tandems he sells have those, as do some of the single frames). He said he has seen a number of retrofitted frames in for service, with problems associated with the couplers. Apparently they're largely press-fit (??) into the tube. If true, I can see how the connection would be susceptible to fretting corrosion. Am I jumping to conclusions here based on faulty info? Anyone have specific experience on that?

Another thing I'm wondering if it would be feasible to retrofit a coupling in the style of the Ritchey Breakaway?.. Anyone do that?

That's absolutely not true. At all. S&S Couplers (on steel/Ti bikes anyway) are always brazed or welded on.

I've seen non-Ritchey frames built with Breakaway attachments but I don't know if you have to have that planned from the start.

[makoti]

For those of you who have had your frames retrofitted with s&s couplers...

1) Did you notice any difference in the way the frame rides post-op?

2) Did your chosen surgeon express any concern about the tubing/butting being not ideal for couplers?

Folks like Bilenky seem more than happy to chop up any frame you hand em, but my cousin (studying under Carl at Vicious Cycles) communicated some concerns (based on comments from Carl) about my idea to retrofit my newly acquired Ti IF.

So, I turn to you guys...what say ye?!

1) Yes, but I can't explain it. I did a Colnago CT-1. It was a nice bike before the conversion. It was a great bike after. It actually was more comfortable after I had it converted.
2) Yes, because the tubing is not the same diameter all the way down the down tube, the coupler was up a bit higher than normal. Worked great, until it danced with a Saturn.
It was Bilenky. I was very happy with them.

What were his concerns?

[572cv]

For those of you who have had your frames retrofitted with s&s couplers...

1) Did you notice any difference in the way the frame rides post-op?

2) Did your chosen surgeon express any concern about the tubing/butting being not ideal for couplers?

Folks like Bilenky seem more than happy to chop up any frame you hand em, but my cousin (studying under Carl at Vicious Cycles) communicated some concerns (based on comments from Carl) about my idea to retrofit my newly acquired Ti IF.


I sent a Ti Fierte to Bilenky to be cut and refitted S&S. They promptly noted the reverse shaping on the top tube (goes from vertical to horizontal) which means it transitions through round at one point, which turns out not to be the usual point for a cut. They measured many times and mocked up to make sure the frame would fit in the S&S hardshell, before they started the job. They almost sent it back, but were clever enough to figure out how to make it work. Bilenky is not a chop shop. They are craftsmen, and proud of the product that leaves the shop. The bike handles superbly. The ti welds at the couplers match the original bike joints beautifully. It is exactly what you would expect from a quality shop with well honed skills. It's a ti frame, so no paint or anything to complicate the project. I wouldn't hesitate to send them another.
You will add the weight from the couplers to the frame weight, but travelling with your ti IF will be a real treat. Head over to the French Alps, find Maxn or Velotel, or bring his new book, and ride some of those cols on your IF. Heaven....

[unterhausen]

Bilenky has a lot of experience, and they do a lot of stuff that other people probably wouldn't out of excessive conservatism. Nothing wrong with excessive conservatism, but in the end it is excessively conservative. There are lots of frame modifications that I wouldn't do but I'm sure are probably fine.

[bicycletricycle]

bilenky did a riv custom for me. bike rode the same afterwards. they took a long time, biffed the decal application and pinstriping around lugs, actually, the paint in general was kind of crap, my friend has that bike now and the paint has a weird bubble in it. Also, communication was always a pain with them.

So i guess what i am trying to say is. retrofit into a overbuilt steel frame was fine, no impact on ride quality.

Bad experience with bilenky, wouldn't use them again.

I know lots of people have had a good experience with them so i am not saying that they are bad guys or anything.

Also, I think they have done more than anybody else.

[saab2000]

1. No, there is no appreciable difference in any ride characteristic after the coupling. I also had Bilenky remove nearly an inch of head tube extension on this CIII, so to my mind it handles better. If anything, the bike is stiffer, but that's probably in my imagination. It weighs about 8 ounces more than before.

2. There were no concerns about the bike from Bilenky, but I have heard that some bikes don't like being coupled. If this one breaks, so be it as long as it's not a catastrophic, dangerous failure.

3. The whole project took several months. I didn't like it but I was told by another customer to basically double Bilenky's estimate and work from there. That turned out to be very accurate. I did it at a time when I didn't need the bike. Plan accordingly.

4. I got one of the more expensive paint options but I think it was worth it. It is a wet paint and it's extremely well integrated and matches the F3 fork.

5. The whole job was not cheap. I don't remember how much, but with the case the the tube pads it was north of $1000 IIRC and probably by several hundred dollars. The end result is amazing however. The couplers appear to have been integrated from Serotta. Bilenky clearly did some filing on the couplers to make them conform with the swaging of the CIII Colorado Concept tubes.

I only wish I could travel more with this bike and be more at ease with the process. So far, I'm glad I did it. I wish I could get the exact same bike without the couplers.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3940/15294700607_4acca27e94_o.jpg

[schwa86]

Bilenky. Good job on shaped tubes. Reasonable job with matching a pretty complicated paint scheme. Definitely took longer and a bit of chasing to get bike back but would definitely use them again. Remains a lovely and very comfortable ride.

Only additional note, though you didn't ask. Despite lots of careful packing with tube covers etc, your bike will get knocked around. So I suppose ti (assuming unpainted) might be a good choice.

[wallymann]

1) Did you notice any difference in the way the frame rides post-op?

2) Did your chosen surgeon express any concern about the tubing/butting being not ideal for couplers?

bilenky did my RB2 retrofit. beefy tubes so no issues with the conversion. bike rode identically before/after...there was absolutely no difference in the ride. if you believe S&S data, the frame was actually stiffer post-retrofit.

http://majortaylorcycling.org/bikes/walter_bridgestone_rb2-cross.jpg

[jds108]

I had my Legend Ti done by Bilenky a few months ago. They are artist and do so many they know the complexities of butted / tapered/ and shaped tubes. Easy way out on the tapered Legend Ti is to place top tube coupler way forward before the taper....it still fits in 26" sq travel box but looks funny to me. I asked they place top tube coupler as far to the rear as possible with the smallest 1.25" ti coupler. To accomplish this they machine the inside of the coupler in the rear half of the fitting. It came out beautifully and I cannot tell a difference in ride quality.

Care to post a pic? Of the bikes in my stable, my Concours Ti is the one I'd like to get done.

[weisan]

I thought I remember a typical retrofit costs anywhere between $4-600 a few years ago, but now it's more in the $8-900+ range, is that more of demand and supply with more people asking to do retrofit, not necessarily the costs have gone up that much?

Or I remembered it wrongly.

[saab2000]

I thought I remember a typical retrofit costs anywhere between $4-600 a few years ago, but now it's more in the $8-900+ range, is that more of demand and supply with more people asking to do retrofit, not necessarily the costs have gone up that much?

Or I remembered it wrongly.

The retrofit is only part of it. Then there's the case and I got the tubing pads (worth every penny BTW) and the paint job which was a couple hundred $$$. It adds up.

[happycampyer]

I thought I remember a typical retrofit costs anywhere between $4-600 a few years ago, but now it's more in the $8-900+ range, is that more of demand and supply with more people asking to do retrofit, not necessarily the costs have gone up that much?

Or I remembered it wrongly.I think the base cost of retrofitting a steel bike is lower than a ti bike. Iirc Bilenky charges around $600 for a steel retrofit, and around $900 for a ti retrofit. If the ti frame is unpainted then there's no refinishing cost, but you still need the case, padding, connectors, etc. By the time you're done it's closer to $1,500. With a steel bike (or a ti bike that's painted), you need to touch-up/refinish the frame, so that adds some additional cost.

Moots charges $1,200 to add couplers to a new frame order (they like many other builders will not retrofit their bikes). Not sure if that includes the case or not.

[oldpotatoe]

I think the base cost of retrofitting a steel bike is lower than a ti bike. Iirc Bilenky charges around $600 for a steel retrofit, and around $900 for a ti retrofit. If the ti frame is unpainted then there's no refinishing cost, but you still need the case, padding, connectors, etc. By the time you're done it's closer to $1,500. With a steel bike (or a ti bike that's painted), you need to touch-up/refinish the frame, so that adds some additional cost.

Moots charges $1,200 to add couplers to a new frame order (they like many other builders will not retrofit their bikes). Not sure if that includes the case or not.

It does not but I have ordered more than a few S&S Moots when at Vecchio's, and a few bought Ritchey cases. Yes, not 'luggage' sized, oversized but a LOT easier to pack. And with no paint, soft side not a big deal.