Padraig on Serotta

[LegendRider]

Sensible analysis of the Serotta situation:
http://redkiteprayer.com/2013/08/serotta-beheaded/

[daker13]

Interesting. One of the things Padraig says in that article is that he doesn't think anyone would want to buy a Serotta-branded bike from a company that didn't employ Ben Serotta. I'm not a branding or marketing guy, but it got me to thinking about other companies that have fired the guy that the company was named after.

One is the high end audio company Mark Levinson. I can't remember exactly what happened, but the company Mark Levinson continues more or less successfully, and the actual guy Mark Levinson started another company under a different name.

Steve's Ice Cream used to be as big as Ben & Jerry's in some parts of New England, but I believe the owner sold the stores and started another chain called Herrell's (Steve's last name). I honestly don't know if either are still in business.

it seems counterintuitive, but eponymous businesses do seem to be able to carry on, even when the namesake is employed elsewhere.

[Smiley]

Fact is Serotta has been on life support for a long while. Funny the article does not talk about Stan Mavis's investment in the company nor does it discuss other wall streeters who put money into it.

I was around for the Chris Chance merger and the Archie Cox days. Serotta as we know it is done. Ben may not have a no compete and I hope he does not but he is too well connected not to be hired by somebody someday. Now we move on and find the heritage that Ben left behind in Kelly Bedford, Dave Kirk and Wages etc.

I wish Ben and Bill Watkins nothing but the best but when you get fired you get your keys taken from you and you get locked out of your building, my wife's knows this too well, its SOP with companies today.

[shovelhd]

I remember Steve's. They were the place to go in Harvard Square. Herrell's is still going, at least the Northampton store.

[MattTuck]

yes, I remember maybe 5 years ago, there was talk of bring Serotta and a few other 'founder brands' like Pearl Izumi, Etxeonodo, etc. under the same roof... not sure if that ever gained any traction. but it is not as if things have been all sunshine and roses until 2012.

[shovelhd]

Read the comments. I'm staying tuned.

[54ny77]

Oscar Meyer's no longer at the bologna factory, but I'm ok with that.

[LegendRider]

Bill Watkins posted this in the comments section:

You have done some good writing based on qualified forensic analysis….so, as you already know, there is surely another side to the public story being told. Stay tuned.

[FlashUNC]

Maybe I'm the cynic, but the article seems to soft-pedal what's essentially been long-standing issues with the company. It isn't as if a switch was thrown in 2012 and things went south. Ben himself has noted that at least since 2008 it's been a bumpy ride for the company.

[Jaq]

Interesting. One of the things Padraig says in that article is that he doesn't think anyone would want to buy a Serotta-branded bike from a company that didn't employ Ben Serotta. I'm not a branding or marketing guy, but it got me to thinking about other companies that have fired the guy that the company was named after.

One is the high end audio company Mark Levinson. I can't remember exactly what happened, but the company Mark Levinson continues more or less successfully, and the actual guy Mark Levinson started another company under a different name.

Steve's Ice Cream used to be as big as Ben & Jerry's in some parts of New England, but I believe the owner sold the stores and started another chain called Herrell's (Steve's last name). I honestly don't know if either are still in business.

it seems counterintuitive, but eponymous businesses do seem to be able to carry on, even when the namesake is employed elsewhere.

It's one thing to make a fortune, another thing to keep it.

[Richard]

Seems to me that the article threw a little more history into the story, but it otherwise read like a summary of the posts that were on this forum about the same subject. Generally a one sided account of a situation that probably has no unsullied good-guy to call a hero.

[Bruce K]

Motorsports safety equipment - Simpson Safery Gear

Company still going fairly well and Simpson's new company doing very well

I think in this case, at least for repeat customers, there was always a bit of a personal connection to Ben. The farther back you go (pre-carbon), the more the connection.

BK

[MattTuck]

I'd like to hear what's going on at Madfiber.... they seem to just be keeping their head down.

Will be interesting to see if Divine was a total smokescreen, or if these 3 companies actually amount to something in the end.

[Ahneida Ride]

Sensible analysis of the Serotta situation:
http://redkiteprayer.com/2013/08/serotta-beheaded/

Article fails to mention Stan and Bonnie Mavis ...
They were recent investors (2008-2010 ?) who also lost their shirts.

[cmg]

from the article "Serotta said he had no operating capital for the company" If he was still selling frames/taking orders then why the money problems? why was he having trouble deliverying ordered frames? would have thought this was the priority. or was the priority paying the CEO's salary? then it becomes robbing the employees.

[jlwdm]

Robbing employees? Somebody was needed to try to turn around a failling company.

Jeff

[pbarry]

from the article "Serotta said he had no operating capital for the company" If he was still selling frames/taking orders then why the money problems? why was he having trouble deliverying ordered frames? would have thought this was the priority. or was the priority paying the CEO's salary? then it becomes robbing the employees.

+1. They were pretty top heavy at the end. Guessing BW was getting no less than $80k and BS, probably the same. Excessive executive salary expenditure for a struggling company with 17(?) employees before the "merger". OTOH, if they both took $1 a year while Serotta got back on its feet, that would be admirable.

[flydhest]

Fender

[cfox]

This nonsense of "nobody would want a Serotta without Ben at the company" is pretty funny. Not nearly enough people wanted a Serotta while he was there. Uh duh? Ben ran the brand into the ground, plain and simple. The guy knows how to make a nice bike, but after umpteen re-orgs and capital infusions, it's clear he has no business running the business.

[Ralph]

Maybe you just can't be successful at what they were trying to do. Markets and Industries change. Companies come and go all the time. Just an Econ 101 situation.

[MattTuck]

Maybe you just can't be successful at what they were trying to do. Markets and Industries change. Companies come and go all the time. Just an Econ 101 situation.

I think there is a lot of truth in this. The people with the best insights would probably be the guys at Seven and Indy Fab. I have no idea how well those two companies are doing, but they're probably the best comps.

[OtayBW]

Fender
Interesting observation, and not without merit. However, I'll take my 1965 pre-CBS Blackface Vibrolux Reverb for tone - as well as value, panache, and collectability - any day of the week over the later Silverface equivalent models.

[cachagua]

It's not that nobody would want a bike named Serotta that Ben had nothing to do with. . . and I think the guitar analogy applies here: there will be a group of people for whom the only bike is the pre-buyout lugged steel one, and a group of people who are proud to ride $1300 Chinese-made carbon Serottas which, except for the paint, you can't tell from dozens of other bikes.

And the two groups will seethe with contempt for each other. Fistfights will break out on cancer-research fundraising rides, and ride-by shootings will make national headlines. A president will be elected on the strength of his claim that "That's the bike that tried to kill mah daddy!".

And you know, that's what we love about the humans, isn't it?

[wooly]

fender

squirotta?

[1centaur]

Fender has transitioned through multiple owners, corporate and private equity and car dealers, over the years. Meanwhile, popular music changed away from guitar-driven rock. Unlike bikes, there has not been a lot of innovation in guitars and not many major brands, so Fender and Gibson retained the brand power necessary to attract new generations of rock star wannabes (especially to Guitar Center, which sells a lot of Fender-branded product). Fender makes everything from cheap to very expensive guitars now, in factories from China to the US (plenty in Mexico).

It would be very surprising if future Serotta were ever to come close to the success of Fender, even if purists rue the loss of pre-CBS Fender.

[OtayBW]

^ And of course Leo Fender left and founded other businesses, including G&L which - to borrow from Padraig - retained Leo's DNA.

[flydhest]

me likey G & L stuff

[ultraman6970]

Because as it says there, Serotta did not have dough to be able to pay all the daily expenses to be able to produce the stuff, and if i'm not wrong this dough comes from the investors, there after why the company changed hands a few months ago to be able to get that injection of capital to be able to operate.

I imagine that the little money they had was put in the employees salaries and personnel in general? Is complicated to know exactly what went wrong and why he was out of cash to the point of selling the whole thing in a merge, I understand what you are saying that they were taking orders and stuff but as usually happens they take the money they receive and they use it to pay bills and other crap at the end probably the bank account was in zero all the time. You have holes you need to cover and you use the money that came in, so production is affected and stuff because there is no cash to operate. Sad situation.

IMO the scale of the operation was one of the problems. Serotta looked way larger that it needed to be, at the end since never seen new serottas in stores at least here, wonder if they were just going custom in the last 2 years, if thats the case well... custom shops arent as big as serotta was logistically speaking.

from the article "Serotta said he had no operating capital for the company" If he was still selling frames/taking orders then why the money problems? why was he having trouble deliverying ordered frames? would have thought this was the priority. or was the priority paying the CEO's salary? then it becomes robbing the employees.

[93legendti]

^ And of course Leo Fender left and founded other businesses, including G&L which - to borrow from Padraig - retained Leo's DNA.

Before that he was involved with Musicman, now owned by Ernie Ball.

[Chris]

This nonsense of "nobody would want a Serotta without Ben at the company" is pretty funny. Not nearly enough people wanted a Serotta while he was there. Uh duh? Ben ran the brand into the ground, plain and simple. The guy knows how to make a nice bike, but after umpteen re-orgs and capital infusions, it's clear he has no business running the business.

Yep. This is right on. Serotta has sadly failed more than it has succeeded in my estimation. The classic red and yellow steel Serotta was the first bike I ever lusted after. A wonderful bike but apparently a business side never matched up.

[Louis]

These days when I read stories like this one about BlackBerry (http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/blackberry-faces-dwindling-options-for-a-deal/?smid=pl-share) I can't help but think of Serotta.

[oldpotatoe]

Fender

Merckx

[FlashUNC]

Merckx

Amen to that one.

I'll agree with cfox. While you can't disagree with Ben's place in American framebuilding, how many Venticinque's or whatever the other anniversary model were sold, with promises they'd be put together by the master himself? I've never seen one in the wild.

Reality is the name has had no pull for a long time.

[soulspinner]

squirotta?

May infringe on Mr squirrels patent rights....

[Germany_chris]

I wonder if it even matters at this point we don't have any internal documents all we really have is the end state then our inferences of what brought the end state.

What I think all this will do is have an effect on the mans legacy and I don't think that's necessarily fair.

[MattTuck]

I wonder if it even matters at this point we don't have any internal documents all we really have is the end state then our inferences of what brought the end state.

What I think all this will do is have an effect on the mans legacy and I don't think that's necessarily fair.

Welcome back, Chris. Hope you've been well.

[Germany_chris]

Welcome back, Chris. Hope you've been well.

Thank you!

All is well :)

[Ahneida Ride]

I wonder if it even matters at this point we don't have any internal documents all we really have is the end state then our inferences of what brought the end state.

What I think all this will do is have an effect on the mans legacy and I don't think that's necessarily fair.

However we do know that for 10 years the Captain ran the ship and made
all decisions, and the ship ran around. Let's blame the enlisted personnel
and the salvage crew.

[Germany_chris]

However we do know that for 10 years the Captain ran the ship and made
all decisions, and the ship ran around. Let's blame the enlisted personnel
and the salvage crew.

Not as business man, as frame builder.

Yes, people have money and now jobs because of decisions he made and minimizing their loss isn't right either. I can't help but to thing that if the last influx of cash 10 months ago had not happened Serotta would be in the middle of bankruptcy but with a future as it stands now I don't see a future. I like to think that the business is small enough that the employees will find employment but maybe I'm reading it wrong. Establishing blame will not get the investors money back nor the employees jobs back. I don't think any blames anyone other than the man himself, that's why he makes the big bucks.

[Bob Ross]

I can't remember exactly what happened, but the company Mark Levinson continues more or less successfully, and the actual guy Mark Levinson started another company under a different name.

Three other companies, at last count. Not sure if he's a marketing genius, or the Angel Of Death who kills (or sells) every company he starts.

[sc53]

Like Smiley said, the Serotta progeny are still making great bikes and I hope they stay in business for a long time. If any of them buys a factory, we will know the end is near. :)

[Ahneida Ride]

how many Venticinque's or whatever the other anniversary model were sold, with promises they'd be put together by the master himself? I've never seen one in the wild.



Zero, Nada, Zipp, were built by Ben.

Only one that was built ....
and that one was built by the Master Himself.

[aptivaboy]

I was originally one of those who said that I would never buy a Serotta from a company without Ben's direct involvement. Over the weekend, I've read a lot, thought a bit, and changed my mind.

I was out for a day hike at the local wilderness park when a lady on a white cruiser type bike passed me. The bike was totally unsuited for the rocky trails but she was motoring by pretty fast, nonetheless. I took a look at her bike. The decal said, "Schwinn."

I'm a Paramountophile. I love 'em. However, the Schwinn label has continued in various forms since the Schwinn family sold their stake and the company left their control. Despite my personal attachment to the old Schwinn, to the company that made the first bike I ever rode as a small child (I still have it!), the company continues in some form or another. The same can happen for Serotta. The brand may not have the same panache that it once did, but it can continue producing quality products much like Schwinn.

Something else - if the Serotta employees have any hopes of remaining gainfully employed, then people have to buy their bikes so that they can pull their paychecks. Its become clear that Ben was having trouble paying his workers on time, for whatever reasons. Not buying a Serotta will only hurt them, not Ben, who is now effectively divorced from the company. If you want one and can actually have it delivered, then get one. It will have Ben's design philosophy and geometry built into it. That remains part of the bike's DNA. It won't have been personally built by Ben, but then neither was my 1990 Colorado. I'm wanting a Pronto more and more. If I can somehow swing it, I'll be content knowing that the name on the downtube is of its designer.

Bob

[fiamme red]

Despite my personal attachment to the old Schwinn, to the company that made the first bike I ever rode as a small child (I still have it!), the company continues in some form or another. The same can happen for Serotta. The brand may not have the same panache that it once did, but it can continue producing quality products much like Schwinn.Schwinn bikes are sold at Walmart now. It's hard to sink lower than that for a bicycle company.

[phcollard]

Merckx

I heard the brand is doing so-so since Eddy left the company. I was talking to a dealer in Belgium last year who used to sell a lot of Merckx bikes. When I entered the shop last time I noticed zero EM on the floor so I asked and the shop owner said "I'm not going to buy this brand anymore unless they change their vision and selling practices. Last time I had a Merckx rep in here it was like talking to a rug seller. This guy had absolutely no passion for bicycles, he just wanted to sell another product. Only marketing BS."

[MattTuck]

Schwinn bikes are sold at Walmart now. It's hard to sink lower than that for a bicycle company.

My buddy's friend used to own an upscale Asian fusion restaurant on the west coast. Very good reviews, top quality food, top quality clientele. Made a healthy living but not getting rich.

Decided to try his hand at an asian food court franchise and ended up owning 30 or so franchises, making huge amounts of money. Way way more than he could have even if he scaled up the high end concept.


moral of the story is that it may be more rewarding to serve up a high quality product to a very discerning customer base, but it doesn't always pay the best. Going for the low end of a market may not inspire a lot of people to lust after your brand, but I disagree with the notion that they are 'sinking' to a low level just because they're going after the low end consumer.

[e-RICHIE]

... but I disagree with the notion that they are 'sinking' to a low level just because they're going after the low end consumer.

This.

Many folks started riding on a Schwinn and never questioned the source, how workers were paid or treated, and went on to ride for many years. Maybe that is where the brand is now - again. Folks buy one, and become us in a decade or three. Also, the Schwinn ordeal in its day made it hard for dealers to expand into other marques. It was not unlike being indentured to the family hierarchy who not only fed the market with goods, but wanted to control a lot more than just the sale of them through local dealers. In their time, the Schwinns had a monopoly - and probably made money.

I think the saga is all about making money. As was noted earlier, if you're not making it, and for a long enough time, change comes.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Schwinn bikes are sold at Walmart now. It's hard to sink lower than that for a bicycle company.

I'll echo Matt's sentiments* and add that "Schwinn" (whoever they are now) are laughing all the way to the bank. And that as crass as it may sound, the point of being in business is to make money.

My guess (and it is just that) is that the business was funding a lifestyle that was not sustainable based on the actual revenues, and that the long term viability of the company and possibly the employee's payroll were sacrificed in order to maintain that lifestyle as long as possible.

Edit = * and eRICHIE

[fiamme red]

I'll echo Matt's sentiments* and add that "Schwinn" (whoever they are now) are laughing all the way to the bank. And that as crass as it may sound, the point of being in business is to make money.My point wasn't that Schwinn is a failing business (though the corporation that owns Schwinn, Dorel, hasn't been doing well lately (http://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2013/08/09/dorel-bike-business-down-through-first-half)), but that it is no longer producing "quality products."

[sitzmark]

Not all of buying a Serotta was about buying a bike personally made by Ben. (Speaking as a non-Serotta owner for whom Serotta was a serious contender when the time came for a custom/semi-custom).

The attraction of Serotta (for me) was the concept of an American handcrafted product. Soup to nuts, the image behind Serotta was quality and vertically integrated in America - framesets anyway.

With Schwinn (the brand, Pacific/Dorel the company), you link into Asian volume production and eventual acquisition/lumping of a brand like Cannondale into the mix. All of it eventually offshored, except for limited assembly at US locations.

The opportunities available in the Serotta price range (or lower) to support US craftsmen are "great". Not that the craftsmen currently residing at Serotta aren't producing a similar product, but the business synergies announced with the formation of DCG include offshore manufacturing/ sourcing. By its nature, I expect DCG to continually analyze profitability and efficiency and utilize resources as efficiently/cost-effectively as possible. Maybe a Serotta frameset stays "all USA" and maybe it doesn't. Not necessarily a bad thing by default if it doesn't ... just not what I'm looking for.

[Kirk Pacenti]

My point wasn't that Schwinn is a failing business (though the corporation that owns Schwinn, Dorel, hasn't been doing well lately (http://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2013/08/09/dorel-bike-business-down-through-first-half)), but that it is no longer producing "quality products."

I understood your point. But if you can't deliver that quality and keep the lights on, what have you really achieved?

The quote below from an MTBR member, though slightly OT, might be a good analogy.

"Read the book "The Goal" someday. It's about a 4 hours read, max.

What's the goal of mtbr?

To provide bike news to its readers? no.
To give readers fair reviews of new products? no.
To provide a place for mountain bikers to post questions and get answers? no.
To provide an online community for like minded cyclists? no.
To cover innovation in our wonderful sport? no.

The goal of mtbr.com is to make money. Period."

[SPOKE]

Amen to that one.

I'll agree with cfox. While you can't disagree with Ben's place in American framebuilding, how many Venticinque's or whatever the other anniversary model were sold, with promises they'd be put together by the master himself? I've never seen one in the wild.

Reality is the name has had no pull for a long time.

I tried to buy one of the La Patron....they wanted the full price up front. I offered a deposit of $4600 with balance due when the frame was ready to ship.
I do not have one......:(

[Kirk Pacenti]

Assuming a sub-$200 price point, I think it would be very difficult to surpass Schwinn's / Walmart's "quality". Here are a few more tangential (but germane) thoughts on the subject of quality (http://www.compint.com/stinkingweasels/BontragerRants/quality1.htm) that I think are worth a read.

[Joachim]

Amen to that one.

I'll agree with cfox. While you can't disagree with Ben's place in American framebuilding, how many Venticinque's or whatever the other anniversary model were sold, with promises they'd be put together by the master himself? I've never seen one in the wild.

Reality is the name has had no pull for a long time.

The VentiCinque was the "cheap" one at $5000. The LePatron was the model by Ben himself for $10 000, but that did include a factory tour, ride and a 2-night hotel stay.

http://www.bikeworldnews.com/2011/02/03/serotta-announces-two-limited-edition-bikes/

[phcollard]

I understood your point. But if you can't deliver that quality and keep the lights on, what have you really achieved?

The quote below from an MTBR member, though slightly OT, might be a good analogy.

"Read the book "The Goal" someday. It's about a 4 hours read, max.

What's the goal of mtbr?

To provide bike news to its readers? no.
To give readers fair reviews of new products? no.
To provide a place for mountain bikers to post questions and get answers? no.
To provide an online community for like minded cyclists? no.
To cover innovation in our wonderful sport? no.

The goal of mtbr.com is to make money. Period."

That's for sure a side note but I find it sad that nowadays everything is measured in terms of income, balance sheets and ROI. I know : that's capitalism. And no I don't want to move to Cuba. What about having fun, personal achievements and the community. Of course you have to pay the rent as well but is that all about money? The ultimate goal? Really? That sucks.

I would have said :
To provide bike news to its readers? yes.
To give readers fair reviews of new products? yes.
To provide a place for mountain bikers to post questions and get answers? yes.
To provide an online community for like minded cyclists? yes.
To cover innovation in our wonderful sport? yes.
To allow its owners and contributors make a decent living of the passion? yes.

[e-RICHIE]

Of course you have to pay the rent as well but is that all about money? The ultimate goal? Really? That sucks.

[/I]

With a certain amount of overhead and accumulated debt - yeah, the money is important atmo.

[professerr]

Nobody needs a bike, and certainly nobody needs a custom-ish bike for 4-10K which I suspect few would be able to distinguish in a double-blind test ride. Heck, a lot of these are hardly ridden at all. Face it, we’re talking fashion more than function here. So whether you’re a Moots or IF or Sachs or Gaulzetti or Serotta, if you don’t have your marketing shtick working for you, if you don’t have your image nailed and polished, you’re toast in this sort of business.

When I read blogs and posts about how no one will buy a Serotta without Ben Serotta involved I think I must be in some alternate reality.

No one I know wants to ride a bike with the name Serotta on it in the first place, and that has little to do with the bikes they make and everything to do with how they’ve managed the brand.

[Kirk Pacenti]

What about having fun, personal achievements and the community.

Fwiw, this is what gets me out of bed in the morning.


What Of course you have to pay the rent as well but is that all about money? The ultimate goal? Really? That sucks.

In and of itself, the money (for me) is not the motivator. But it is the primary goal, in that its what ensures that I can continue to have fun, grow through personal achievement and contribute to the community. It may suck, but that's the reality.

[FlashUNC]

I tried to buy one of the La Patron....they wanted the full price up front. I offered a deposit of $4600 with balance due when the frame was ready to ship.
I do not have one......:(

The VentiCinque was the "cheap" one at $5000. The LePatron was the model by Ben himself for $10 000, but that did include a factory tour, ride and a 2-night hotel stay.

http://www.bikeworldnews.com/2011/02/03/serotta-announces-two-limited-edition-bikes/

The mind boggles.

Do we know if any ever got built, of either model (beyond the floor demos)?

Not to drag other names into the discussion, but I inquired about another builder's anniversary bike earlier this year, and was told all I'd need to do is place a normal deposit down. I have to wonder what was going on to require full payment up front rather than just the business struggling with cash flow issues or whatever else.

Never mind that I got a fantastic bike built by a great builder at a fraction of the cost, all while supporting American boutique manufacturing.

I'm reminded of that old joke about the mattress store that loses money on every transaction. "Well, how do you make money?" "Volume!"

I get the sense the math hadn't worked for a while.

[SPOKE]

The mind boggles.

Do we know if any ever got built, of either model (beyond the floor demos)?

Not to drag other names into the discussion, but I inquired about another builder's anniversary bike earlier this year, and was told all I'd need to do is place a normal deposit down. I have to wonder what was going on to require full payment up front rather than just the business struggling with cash flow issues or whatever else.

Never mind that I got a fantastic bike built by a great builder at a fraction of the cost, all while supporting American boutique manufacturing.

I'm reminded of that old joke about the mattress store that loses money on every transaction. "Well, how do you make money?" "Volume!"

I get the sense the math hadn't worked for a while.

There was a Venticinque at the 2011 NAHBS in Richmond on display in the Serotta booth. I don't know if any others were built.

[cmg]

My guess (and it is just that) is that the business was funding a lifestyle that was not sustainable based on the actual revenues, and that the long term viability of the company and possibly the employee's payroll were sacrificed in order to maintain that lifestyle as long as possible.

Edit = * and eRICHIE

sounds like the majority of architects i've worked for. Get a large project, nice fee, principle builds himself a house 3 times the size of the current 1 hr away from the office. discover that no new commissions of that magnitude follow, begin cutting back benefits to employees (robbing them), put everyone on salary and increase hours (increase the robbery), at christmas invite workers to principles house an hour away to see what the low salaries have bought him. you wish him well and abandon ship before you sink with him. stand on the curb and wave. :) ahhhh.. good times.......

[phcollard]

Fwiw, this is what gets me out of bed in the morning.

In and of itself, the money (for me) is not the motivator. But it is the primary goal, in that its what ensures that I can continue to have fun, grow through personal achievement and contribute to the community. It may suck, but that's the reality.

Yeah! I like :) Money sucks only if its your one and only goal.

[1centaur]

I doubt money is anyone's one and only goal. If it were, they would not spend it on more than the means to grow the pile. Even greedy, single-minded, sharp-elbowed, keeping score people like having fun.

mtbr.com's (owners') goal is not to make money, it's to generate the means to have fun. The mistake is in the premise: there is not one goal for anyone, anytime.

[333halfevil]

It is so entertaining to read all the views of outsiders. Having been in the trenches of Serotta for my entire adult life I have a ton of views and comments that I'd love to share, but at this time I do not feel it is appropriate. As a long time employee, I have been on the craziness roller coaster ride for a long time. There seems to be a lot of chatter about "Ben" not being with us anymore. Fact is, ben was an admirable man to have around on a daily basis. My personal views on his business sense will be witheld, but...... The guys that actually built your dream bikes are still in Saratoga. Ben was the face of Serotta, but the employees were the true artisans that met all of your demands. Personally, all of the current happenings has killed the spirit of Serotta in the cycling community as well as at the Serotta factory as well. Nobody knows if anyone will ever see a Serotta bult by Ben or by another party; only time can tell. I have no idea what the future holds for myself, or for any of my co-workers. As for as I'm concerned; all the speculations at this point should be printed in a tabloid and used as ass wipe paper. Let's just all do what we all love to do why all this plays out; RIDE!

[oldpotatoe]

I heard the brand is doing so-so since Eddy left the company. I was talking to a dealer in Belgium last year who used to sell a lot of Merckx bikes. When I entered the shop last time I noticed zero EM on the floor so I asked and the shop owner said "I'm not going to buy this brand anymore unless they change their vision and selling practices. Last time I had a Merckx rep in here it was like talking to a rug seller. This guy had absolutely no passion for bicycles, he just wanted to sell another product. Only marketing BS."

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product2_10053_10052_555826_-1

How the great have fallen..I think Eddy got out at the right time.

[oldpotatoe]

I'll echo Matt's sentiments* and add that "Schwinn" (whoever they are now) are laughing all the way to the bank. And that as crass as it may sound, the point of being in business is to make money.

My guess (and it is just that) is that the business was funding a lifestyle that was not sustainable based on the actual revenues, and that the long term viability of the company and possibly the employee's payroll were sacrificed in order to maintain that lifestyle as long as possible.

Edit = * and eRICHIE

AND if the Walmarts of the world decided to invest in a real bicycle shop in their stores, with knowledgeable people to build and then maintain these $169 wonders..well some LBS would feel it.

[e-RICHIE]

AND if the Walmarts of the world decided to invest in a real bicycle shop in their stores, with knowledgeable people to build and then maintain these $169 wonders..well some LBS would feel it.

Peter - If you had a magic wand, could turn back time, or change something in this equation (the S brand saga included) what would it be?

[oldpotatoe]

Peter - If you had a magic wand, could turn back time, or change something in this equation (the S brand saga included) what would it be?

Well, my 'issue' with the 'S' brand is on a personal level with Ben himself so I wouldn't include any of that.

But can't turn back time. People on bikes is generally a good thing, it's not all about money. There will always be small shops with craft people and great big places where $ is the bottom line.

I'm a big believer in 'do one thing and do it well'. The guy 1/2 block away does fine with Giant.doesn't mean I'm gonna sell bikes or wheels outta boxes.

He would like to be known as a 'pro shop'...but.....

BUT I think a big part of the equation is finding out why, in certain parts of the USA, when weather isn't a factor, it isn't easier/safer to ride a bicycle.

AND the USA is a car culture, big, spread out. The bike 'can' be used as transportation but the motorized vehicle isn't ever going to go away. Too easy, too convenient, to inexpensive. Maybe if fuel was scarce(not expensive)..but if that happens, we'll have more problems than what kind of bike part to buy. It'll be more where to find ammunition.

To turn back time, since this is a 'bicycle forum', would mean to not have the oil companies and car companies and Eisenhower(highway system)create the society that we have now. I think given the circumstances, any president or congress would have made the same decisions.

[e-RICHIE]

Well, my 'issue' with the 'S' brand is on a personal level with Ben himself so I wouldn't include any of that.

But can't turn back time. People on bikes is generally a good thing, it's not all about money. There will always be small shops with craft people and great big places where $ is the bottom line.

I'm a big believer in 'do one thing and do it well'. The guy 1/2 block away does fine with Giant.doesn't mean I'm gonna sell bikes or wheels outta boxes.

He would like to be known as a 'pro shop'...but.....

BUT I think a big part of the equation is finding out why, in certain parts of the USA, when weather isn't a factor, it isn't easier/safer to ride a bicycle.

AND the USA is a car culture, big, spread out. The bike 'can' be used as transportation but the motorized vehicle isn't ever going to go away. Too easy, too convenient, to inexpensive. Maybe if fuel was scarce(not expensive)..but if that happens, we'll have more problems than what kind of bike part to buy. It'll be more where to find ammunition.

To turn back time, since this is a 'bicycle forum', would mean to not have the oil companies and car companies and Eisenhower(highway system)create the society that we have now. I think given the circumstances, any president or congress would have made the same decisions.

Ya I think everything is as it should be, as it's meant to be, and that includes lamenting about it too atmo.

[Ahneida Ride]

The VentiCinque was the "cheap" one at $5000. The LePatron was the model by Ben himself for $10 000, but that did include a factory tour, ride and a 2-night hotel stay.

http://www.bikeworldnews.com/2011/02/03/serotta-announces-two-limited-edition-bikes/

Only one was built and that would have included a tour of Kelly's shop. ;)

Anyone capable of building lugged steel has long left Serotta.

I have no idea what Serotta sold the frame for, but I suspect the customer knew Kelly Bedford built it.

[Climb01742]

Well, my 'issue' with the 'S' brand is on a personal level with Ben himself so I wouldn't include any of that.

But can't turn back time. People on bikes is generally a good thing, it's not all about money. There will always be small shops with craft people and great big places where $ is the bottom line.

I'm a big believer in 'do one thing and do it well'. The guy 1/2 block away does fine with Giant.doesn't mean I'm gonna sell bikes or wheels outta boxes.

He would like to be known as a 'pro shop'...but.....

BUT I think a big part of the equation is finding out why, in certain parts of the USA, when weather isn't a factor, it isn't easier/safer to ride a bicycle.

AND the USA is a car culture, big, spread out. The bike 'can' be used as transportation but the motorized vehicle isn't ever going to go away. Too easy, too convenient, to inexpensive. Maybe if fuel was scarce(not expensive)..but if that happens, we'll have more problems than what kind of bike part to buy. It'll be more where to find ammunition.

To turn back time, since this is a 'bicycle forum', would mean to not have the oil companies and car companies and Eisenhower(highway system)create the society that we have now. I think given the circumstances, any president or congress would have made the same decisions.

Peter makes a very good point, I think. When we wonder why more folks don't ride bikes, it's easy to look at bikes themselves and ask if bikes were somehow different, or if we could get people on different bikes, things might be better. And that may be some small part of the issue.

But the real issue is cultural. America has a car culture and a car centric infrastructure. Europe has a bike culture. And a few American cities, like Portland OR, are building one. If we built more bike cultures in more cities, I think more people would ride.

[MattTuck]

But the real issue is cultural. America has a car culture and a car centric infrastructure. Europe has a bike culture. And a few American cities, like Portland OR, are building one. If we built more bike cultures in more cities, I think more people would ride.

I tend to think that it is a matter of economics. After World War II in Italy, a bicycle was akin to a man's survival and his ability to hold down a job. It wasn't because they set out to have a bicycle culture, it was because cars and fuel were scarce and therefor expensive.

Trying to create a culture around bikes is a net positive, but don't expect large scale changes until the basic costs and benefits (utilities) of operating a car change in a significant way.

[laupsi]

Peter makes a very good point, I think. When we wonder why more folks don't ride bikes, it's easy to look at bikes themselves and ask if bikes were somehow different, or if we could get people on different bikes, things might be better. And that may be some small part of the issue.

But the real issue is cultural. America has a car culture and a car centric infrastructure. Europe has a bike culture. And a few American cities, like Portland OR, are building one. If we built more bike cultures in more cities, I think more people would ride.

take a few steps back from your perspective to view the overall. more folks on bikes today than 20 years ago. suppose you could say the same about cars but overall we're spending less on gas, not including inflation, due to retooling and current technology. who knows what tomorrow will bring, perhaps the "culture" as you put it is due for a revival?

[FlashUNC]

I tend to think that it is a matter of economics. After World War II in Italy, a bicycle was akin to a man's survival and his ability to hold down a job. It wasn't because they set out to have a bicycle culture, it was because cars and fuel were scarce and therefor expensive.

Trying to create a culture around bikes is a net positive, but don't expect large scale changes until the basic costs and benefits (utilities) of operating a car change in a significant way.

Only need to watch The Bicycle Thief to see how important bikes were in Italy post-war. It was the way to get around. If that were shot in the U.S. post-war, it woulda been called The Car Thief.

[Kirk Pacenti]

...a few American cities, like Portland OR, are building one. If we built more bike cultures in more cities, I think more people would ride.


There's some serious thread drift going on here, but I agree that the infrastructure in the US doesn't really lend itself to riding bicycles.

Because of where I live today, I ride strictly for recreation. But there was a time when I lived in a place that made it possible to commute roughly 10k miles per year. Not only was it safe, but most days it was faster than driving.

[jblande]

I tend to think that it is a matter of economics. After World War II in Italy, a bicycle was akin to a man's survival and his ability to hold down a job. It wasn't because they set out to have a bicycle culture, it was because cars and fuel were scarce and therefor expensive.


And attitudes toward taxation, collective responsibility, quality of life, public health, and so on and so on.

Spent a large chunk of my adult life studying and working in Germany, and while the postwar period is undoubtedly decisve, merely pointing to it does not capture the differences in mentality and social organization...

[Black Dog]

But the real issue is cultural. America has a car culture and a car centric infrastructure. Europe has a bike culture. And a few American cities, like Portland OR, are building one. If we built more bike cultures in more cities, I think more people would ride.

Europe has a car culture, motor bike, and bike culture. They are as obsessed by these as north Americans are obsessed by cars alone. However, they differ in one fundamental way, they do not think that any of these 3 modes of transport has more of a right to be on the roads than any other. All users are equal and resources are divided among motorized and non motorized modes. This creates a situation where moving around is very easy from walking, public transport, riding (on roads or dedicated bike paths), or even driving.

Thee are so many lessons that north Americans
need to learn.

[dekindy]

MY 2012 Malibu has an average speed calculation displayed in the instrument cluster. It translates the gridlock and frustration of driving a car in a large metro area into a number that is so low that it is hard to believe. However when I recall an old guy riding a Walmart quality bicycle SLOWLY on the sidewalk and passing me several times in rush hour traffic it is probably accurate. If not for weather and logistics, you could easily duplicate the average speed with various types of pedal driven vehicles and cure many other society problems also.

[Ralph]

If I had a bike I could use for transportation, shopping, commuting, etc, it might not look much like the bikes we "mostly" talk about on this forum. KIck stand, fenders, racks, fatter tires, built in lights, etc. Would be nice to be able to use a bike like that, and then have current bikes for fun.