Hey, All you training Guru's....

[Len J]

All this talk of Mt Washington got me thinking.

Is it possible to train for something like Mt Washington, while living and training in the Flats and the Wind?

Here is my thinking....Climbing is all about power to weight.....My weight is fine...currently 162, I can easily maintain my power while reducing my weight to 150 or so. So If I focused on power and Cardio endurance, why wouldn't I be able to be successful?

Am I smoking something? If not, what kind of training would you recommend?

I travel Monday to Friday and can do trainer rides in hotels....I live on the Eastern Shore of Maryland & only have the weekends to ride (Long rides beginning early) and spend time with family & Friend. It's the ultimate balancing act.

What Ya Think?

Len

[SoCalSteve]

You have good base training, yes? You are looking to improve yourself.

One good way is to do interval training. I found that the Chris Carmichael-Lance Armstrong book on training (not the autobiographical ones) really nails interval training.

Read that book and you will see that the human body really is a science. Oh, and the stuff he teaches in there really does work.

Good luck and Happy Holidays from a certified endurance cycling coach.

Steve

[Ti Designs]

I ain't no "guru". As far as I can tell, the title "guru" means at least $1000/hour. If I were to call myself a guru I would have to stop right hear and wait for you to PM me your credit card number...

OK, with that out of the way, yeh, you're smoking something. While pushing big gears into headwinds is a commond way for flatlanders to build power, it's very different from hill climbing - one is momentum based, the other is based on constant changes in speed. When you climb a hill it's your body fighting gravity. Your speed can change significantly with where the pedal is in the pedal stroke. On the flats in a big gear you're adding energy to a system which keeps itself steady. There are differences in technique and differences in position on the bike.

There are things you can do to change your climbing, but without any knowledge of where you are in training or anything about you I'm not going there. Besides, I still don't have your credit card number.

[Len J]

I ain't no "guru". As far as I can tell, the title "guru" means at least $1000/hour. If I were to call myself a guru I would have to stop right hear and wait for you to PM me your credit card number...

OK, with that out of the way, yeh, you're smoking something. While pushing big gears into headwinds is a commond way for flatlanders to build power, it's very different from hill climbing - one is momentum based, the other is based on constant changes in speed. When you climb a hill it's your body fighting gravity. Your speed can change significantly with where the pedal is in the pedal stroke. On the flats in a big gear you're adding energy to a system which keeps itself steady. There are differences in technique and differences in position on the bike.

There are things you can do to change your climbing, but without any knowledge of where you are in training or anything about you I'm not going there. Besides, I still don't have your credit card number.

I think I understand.......but....Isn't sustainable power, sustainable power? I'm not suggesting that I could do as well as if I was training on hills......maybe the better question is How much worse, given the same level of training.

As to where I am in training. I've been riding for 30 years or so....have a very strong Cardio base and will continue maintaining it. My favorite rides are 50 + miles at about 18.5 to 20.0 MPH, depending on headwinds/tailwinds done at primarily high zone 2 constant HR. (LT 181 BPM Most of this type of ride is done between 155 & 160 BPM)

It sounds to me like you think this is futile to even consider...am I understanding?

Len

PS Wait here is my CC #...wait, where is it? Honey, what.....it melted?

I'll get back to you TI

[Sandy]

Are you saying that if I give you Len's credit card number, then you can make me a better climber? :)




Sandy

[Sandy]

A very interesting question.


Sandy

[Argos]

While you may not be able to practice all aspects of long duration climbing, I don't think that an in-shape flatlander will do poorly. Pace yourself during the climb, train hard before the climb and I'm sure you will have tears in your eyes at the top. Afterwards you can tell us if they were from pain or joy.. :D

[Climb01742]

len, i sure ain't no training expert but my 2 cents is...a flatlander could probably train themselves to put out the required watts...but what they'd probably lack is the experience, confidence and strategies needed to actual ride so many vertical miles. MW is a mind-f*ck, above and beyond a body-f*ck. coping with that, both physically and mentally, takes experience, i think...

[Len J]

len, i sure ain't no training expert but my 2 cents is...a flatlander could probably train themselves to put out the required watts...but what they'd probably lack is the experience, confidence and strategies needed to actual ride so many vertical miles. MW is a mind-f*ck, above and beyond a body-f*ck. coping with that, both physically and mentally, takes experience, i think...

of running marathons was always my strength.

Multiple hour hard riding into the wind is as much mental as physical.....I work hard at this.

What strategies are you thinking about?

Len

[Fixed]

bro get with some bros train and ride it together there is strengh in numbers i.m.h.o. cheers you can do it :beer: merry christmas

[Serpico]

...

[Tailwinds]

bro get with some bros train and ride it together there is strengh in numbers i.m.h.o. cheers you can do it :beer: merry christmas

Ditto what Fixed said. Just go for it. Believing you can do it is the most important part of the process i.m.h.o.

[93legendti]

While you may not be able to practice all aspects of long duration climbing, I don't think that an in-shape flatlander will do poorly. Pace yourself during the climb, train hard before the climb and I'm sure you will have tears in your eyes at the top. Afterwards you can tell us if they were from pain or joy.. :D

Exactly. I live in Michigan and have 9 day trips in the Alps, 8 day trips in the Dolomites, multiple week long trips in the Rockies and numerous race training camps in Majorca. The keys to surviving and enjoying the riding on all the trips were: being in shape, riding a lot before hand and using over gearing training. Everyone is different and if you assembled 3-4 coaches they would probably give you varying programs--which could all succeed for you.

That being said, someone could have the best coach, the strictest diet and a faithful adherence to a training program and screw it all up by riding poorly on the mountain. I have ridden most of the tough climbs in the Dolomites (except the Mortirolo) and Alps and can say for certain that, except for the most gifted climbers, riding a hard mountain like a time trial or a "sprint" would be a recipe for pain. Let all the rabbits go at the bottom. You'll pass many of them later on if you ride within yourself. If you blow on a tough climb you will suffer like you have never suffered and probably never recover.

As the French coaches in Majorca said over and over again " the mountain makes the pace".

[Climb01742]

of running marathons was always my strength.

Multiple hour hard riding into the wind is as much mental as physical.....I work hard at this.

What strategies are you thinking about?

Len

len, i certainly didn't mean to question your mental toughness. that's not what i meant at all. i'll try to explain better: before MW, i thought i knew what climbing tough slopes was. so i had a certain mental picture or gameplan. but i was wrong. MW is beyond anything i'd ridden. on most climbs, there are breaks, pauses, places where the hill flattens out a bit, and you can recoup both physically and mentally. on MW there are none. you're at your limit, you come around a corner, and there is an even steeper section. you suck it up and drive ahead. then you round another corner, hoping for even 10 yards of relief, but instead you see an even steeper section. the unrelenting nature of MW was what caught me off guard. i'm not sure what cracked first...my body or my will. mentally, i'm tough; my willpower far exceeds my talent, trust me. and i thought i knew what i was in for. but until you get on that mountain, and especially until you get above the treeline, i'm not sure most of us can imagine how tough that rockpile is. i come from a running background, too, len. and in running, you can "glide" for a few hundred yards almost whenever you need to, to recover, to back off a bit. on MW, you glide and you go backwards. :D so perhaps a better thing to say is...its hard to appreciate the mental challenge of MW until you've been on the mountain. it certainly humbled me. that experience will (i hope) better prepare me for this year. that said, len, i wholeheartedly encourage you to join us! it is one h*ll of a challenge.

[Len J]

Thanks Climb:

I didn't take your comment as a question of my mental toughness.

I process out loud....I was really just commenting on your comment. When I was running marathons...the last 6 to 8 miles was all mental...especially when competing for a win......there was no gliding, rather there was constant attacking at the time when you felt like nothing but giving up......I hear you about even minor resting meaning going backward.

The purpose of the post was really to explore wheather or not I'd be wasting my time training "If I couldn't train on mountains". So far, the only professional trainer who responded seems to be saying i would be wasting my time.

Your unrelenting description is a good reminder of the nature of the beast.

Part of me want to believe.."It's only 1 1/2 hours of pain" I've done more than that with severe pain. Another part of me is thinking "What are you nuts? Yea, right, you're gonna ride a killer mountain without any mountain preperation." The funny part is, the second is more of a motivator.....yea, I'm a sick duck.

Ti is probably right...I am smoking something.

Thanks for the response Climb.

Len

[Climb01742]

len, i'd be proud to ride up that rockpile beside you. come on, man, let's do it!

[Len J]

len, i'd be proud to ride up that rockpile beside you. come on, man, let's do it!

I'm humbled......I'll let you know.

Len

[Len J]

I would really like to know what others believe about this.

Thanks

Len

[weisan]

not a guru just your pal, i seriously think it's gonna be extra tough though not impossible there's a very good reason why successful riders try to live out in places where they simulate their training in similar race conditions nothing can ever replace actual field experience i am sure there's some creative way to compensate for the lack of hills but again it's another obstacle you can do without if you are gonna take on mt.washington which in itself is tough enough to make grown men cry...but climb-0 is right...probably nothing will ever prepare anyone enough for this race it's still gonna be a shock treatment

[e-RICHIE]

i would continue to do intervals of no longer
than 90 seconds in duration (at least 10 per
ride) and also never ride below 110-120rpm.
in other words, the intervals could be done in
gears such as 39-14 / 39-16.
i find that suppleness and mile logging is way
more beneficial for climbing than riding big gears
and trying to add strength (is).

[Dr. Doofus]

dfoo is no guru

make what you will

climbing is about technique as much as fitness (as is TT, but that's another matter). you need to sustain power while sitting back on the saddle, dropping your heel, and pedaling up a 10% incline at 90rpm -- which is a different motor pattern than when you're slammed down in the drops and spinning a big gear at 100rpm on a flat road.

you can't sit up and pedal a big gear into the wind to learn this

elevating the front wheel on a trainer helps somewhat, but pedaling against the constant resistance of a trainer isn't anything like the dynamics of pedaling on the road.

so

you want to climb a mountain?

go climb moutains

if you don't learn the technique of climbing, all the fitness in the world won't help you do anything more than survive the climb.

at the big-time level, the classic examples of this were boardman and olano. they had the watt/kg ratios to be serious climbers, but never developed the technique to be comfortable on the cols. doof got to hear peter keen in '97, and he remarked that he and cb recognized they had hit a plateau -- the watts were there, but they couldn't develop a position and a pedaling technique to put those watts to use...cbs long track background had limited his overall development as a roadie....

[Len J]

dfoo is no guru

make what you will

climbing is about technique as much as fitness (as is TT, but that's another matter). you need to sustain power while sitting back on the saddle, dropping your heel, and pedaling up a 10% incline at 90rpm -- which is a different motor pattern than when you're slammed down in the drops and spinning a big gear at 100rpm on a flat road.

you can't sit up and pedal a big gear into the wind to learn this

elevating the front wheel on a trainer helps somewhat, but pedaling against the constant resistance of a trainer isn't anything like the dynamics of pedaling on the road.

so

you want to climb a mountain?

go climb moutains

if you don't learn the technique of climbing, all the fitness in the world won't help you do anything more than survive the climb.

at the big-time level, the classic examples of this were boardman and olano. they had the watt/kg ratios to be serious climbers, but never developed the technique to be comfortable on the cols. doof got to hear peter keen in '97, and he remarked that he and cb recognized they had hit a plateau -- the watts were there, but they couldn't develop a position and a pedaling technique to put those watts to use...cbs long track background had limited his overall development as a roadie....

That's interesting...........so what you're saying is technique will squeeze out the little bit extra efficiency that will get you up quicker.

Any idea if the difference is 2 % or 40%? Relativly.

Len

[Len J]

i would continue to do intervals of no longer
than 90 seconds in duration (at least 10 per
ride) and also never ride below 110-120rpm.
in other words, the intervals could be done in
gears such as 39-14 / 39-16.
i find that suppleness and mile logging is way
more beneficial for climbing than riding big gears
and trying to add strength (is).

I'm surpirsed at this.......

What kind of effort level we talking here? above LT? Just below LT?

Thanks

Len

[e-RICHIE]

I'm surpirsed at this.......

What kind of effort level we talking here? above LT? Just below LT?

Thanks

Len

i can climb - but i never train on hills. i ride
them, but i never train on them. my training
is rpm and interval based. rather than up my
gear-slash-pain level, i do my intervals on
mild inclines where i know i can get 60-90
uninterupted seconds while sprinting and
pedaling as fast i can rather than as hard as
i can. i don't/can't put in the mega hours
and miles that others can - so my 1 hour or
so per day must pay dividends. low gear,
high rpm intervals works the best for me.

[Ginger]

Len,
From one flatlander to another, the only way you'll really know is try. :)
And, with my very limited experience with mountains, I'd say what everyone says is correct: it's a different technique than riding flatlands, even somewhat hilly lands.
In Michigan, our hills aren't very long. Even when I was in New York, the hills there aren't very long really...you could perhaps power up them and recover on the downside...so you just "smack the hill" gut out the pain and be done with it...but with mountains, even if they aren't steep, sometimes there is no down. Only up. And adjusting to that "always up" type of climbing takes a real mental adjustment.
But you know what? I kindof enjoyed the "always up." And it made me determined to learn to climb better. So I'm already on my trainer getting form and base in place, my coach has a plan, and I should be in shape to go practice riding mountains in March down in NC. Should be interesting.

C'mon, join us...you know you want to!

[Dr. Doofus]

That's interesting...........so what you're saying is technique will squeeze out the little bit extra efficiency that will get you up quicker.

Any idea if the difference is 2 % or 40%? Relativly.

Len

technique makes a huge difference on a long climb

riders who aren't used to climbing tend to drop their cadence too low, mash, and create a good amount of muscle fatigue while building up acid in the bargain. also, you're trying to find a rhythm in a low-gear/high watt effort you're not used to anyway, and the "climbing" motor-units in your quads and glutes start to tire because they're not used to this, so you start getting out of the saddle to stretch your legs out a bit, and now you're getting out of rhythm and wasting energy...one negative leads to another and pretty soon you're just trying to get up the thing, forget about getting up it quickly.

its hard to quantify -- you could take a power meter and measure a rider over two months as he did the same climb each week, and then look at kjoules relative to vertical meters, or kjoules relative to watts (both ways of measuring work on a long climb). watts and vm would go up as fitness improves, natch. you would have to look at the curve of watts on one axis, kjoules on the other, to see if the rider is learning how to accomplish more work with less effort over the given duration.

but, basically, its old-school CONI truth:

you want to sprint well, do sprints

you want to climb well, do climbs

you want to time trial well, do time trials

you can't do all three at the same time

the better you become at one, the worse you become at another

[Len J]

i can climb - but i never train on hills. i ride
them, but i never train on them. my training
is rpm and interval based. rather than up my
gear-slash-pain level, i do my intervals on
mild inclines where i know i can get 60-90
uninterupted seconds while sprinting and
pedaling as fast i can rather than as hard as
i can. i don't/can't put in the mega hours
and miles that others can - so my 1 hour or
so per day must pay dividends. low gear,
high rpm intervals works the best for me.

Wonder what would happen if I mixed this with Power work?

I do the same thing in my normal training....attacking whatever inclines we have here.....which admittly aren't many, aren't long and mostly aren't steep......and I climb OK for a flatlander.

Thanks Richie

Len

[Ken Lehner]

I'm surpirsed at this.......

What kind of effort level we talking here? above LT? Just below LT?

Thanks

Len

You need to increase the power you can sustain for an hour or so. The best way to do that is to ride at about 91-105% of your sustainable hour power for 30-60 minutes total time in intervals of 10-30 minutes each, with minimal rest (~2 minutes) between intervals. Do this twice a week, increasing your power by 5-10W every two weeks, for 8-10 weeks. You can alternate this block with a short block of L5 intervals to raise your VO2Max (thus raising the ceiling on what your sustainable power can be).Here's (http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/levels.html) a good article on the various physiological effects of different training levels.

I doubt that doing such short intervals (< 90 seconds) will give you any benefit for climbing (unless you need to outsprint someone at the line).

As for riding in the wind vs. climbing: I'm not sure that your leg muscles can tell the difference (given the same position). The resistive force of a headwind is no different in nature than the resistive force of gravity: it's a force that your leg muscles (and cardio system) have to overcome.

Remember specificity: train how you will race. Same cadences, same body position, same power. I'd say that you can train climbing and TTing at the same time (it's all about how many watts you can maintain for "long" periods of time, along with correct body positioning for TTing); sprinting is a whole different animal.

In any case, you need to become fully familiar with how much power you can output for the time period you want. Go too hard to soon, and you are toast.

[Len J]

I hear ya.....and I've been there.

I did a 5 day ride in alaska a few years ago from Fairbanks to anchorage....I think we averaged 10,000+ vertical feet a day......the third and 4th day (over the alaska range I think) was incessant........I lived and trained where I live now and didn't know what to expect.

The good news....I never once walked....and never reduced my cadence below 90.

The bad news..........some of the long climbs late in the week I did at under 5 MPH.

This is a little different undertaking in that there is no cumulative effect of multiple days offset by the brutality of the climb itself and the weather above the treeline.

Thanks for the feedback.

Len

[Len J]

Thanks Ken:

Your words reflect what I intuitivly believed. (Don't know if that's good or bad LOL)

I suspect that if I train right, and as you say, am aware of my sustainable power, I should be able to finish and do as well as I can.

Good article BTW, thanks.

Len

[Dr. Doofus]

Remember specificity: train how you will race. Same cadences, same body position, same power.
.

and that's the rub

riding the hoods or the tops on level ground isn't the same body position as riding the hoods or the tops on a 7% climb

doing LT work on the flat is better than nothing, but again, if you want to climb hills better, climb a lot of hills

[Len J]

C'mon, join us...you know you want to!

MA:

Yea, I do.......but I don't want to (as climb would say) "not give it my all"

Trying to work thru both my expectations and a training plan.

Len

[Ken Lehner]

and that's the rub

riding the hoods or the tops on level ground isn't the same body position as riding the hoods or the tops on a 7% climb


Why not?

[Len J]

and that's the rub

riding the hoods or the tops on level ground isn't the same body position as riding the hoods or the tops on a 7% climb

doing LT work on the flat is better than nothing, but again, if you want to climb hills better, climb a lot of hills

How, specifically, is the position different?

I've climbed mountains, and the position doesn't "Feel" different.

Thanks

Len

[Dr. Doofus]

Why not?

because the bike is tilted up at a 7 or 10 or 13 or 20% incline.

you're sitting further back on the saddle

your glutes engage earlier

your hamstrings engage more

your heel will drop more than on flat ground

you will bend at the waist to get more glute and hamstring to get more power when under pressure


this is why you cannot train TT and climbing at the same time and expect full benefit from the work. you can get long and low and train the TT, or you can sit back and train on hills. you cannot do both at once.

its more than just watts/kg -- formulas like that ignore all the important little real-world details of riding a bike....

[93legendti]

Everyone is different. The key is riding consistently and effectively. I have used the trainer to prepare for week long trips to Majorca, a 9 day trip in the high Alps and a 8 day trip in the Dolomites. Was it the absolute best training? No. Did I suffer like a dog, as if I had never ridden a mountian? No. Did I feel my trainign helped? Absolutely.

Actually, Boardman actually climbed very well in the Dauphne. He trained for the mountains by riding his bike on a treadmill elevated to 8%. He never rode well in the TDF's mountains, but even Rominger (other than 1993) had trouble in the TDF's mountians and (lately) so have Heras, Mayo, Hamilton, Simoni and hosts of other very good-great climbers.

Grame Obree prepared for the hour record by riding on a trainer. So anything is possible. Yes, specificity is probably the best training--i.e. riding mountains to get good at riding mountains. But there are other options.

I think Ken's post has some very good info. Keep an open mind. Pick a training plan and be consistent.

[Ken Lehner]

because the bike is tilted up at a 7 or 10 or 13 or 20% incline.

you're sitting further back on the saddle

your glutes engage earlier

your hamstrings engage more

your heel will drop more than on flat ground

you will bend at the waist to get more glute and hamstring to get more power when under pressure


All of this can be done on flat ground. Especially when faced with winds like those found on the eastern shore of Maryland (I did Eagleman in 2005).

[Dr. Doofus]

Actually, Boardman actually climbed very well in the Dauphne. He trained for the mountains by riding his bike on a treadmill elevated to 8%..

yes, in 1995 he did a good dauphine, finishing 3rd. the tour was a matter of recovery...he had the engine for 1 hour to 5 days, but after that....

he also rode in too large a gear on the climbs -- that's from peter keen. they tried to get more efficiency by going to smaller gears in '96

and finally, one of you agrees...boardman rode a treadmill in the winter to help develop climbing technique...doof isn't making this crap up....

[Dr. Doofus]

All of this can be done on flat ground. Especially when faced with winds like those found on the eastern shore of Maryland (I did Eagleman in 2005).

yes

if you have a bike built with a 30 inch front wheel

[Ken Lehner]

yes

if you have a bike built with a 30 inch front wheel

So, you are saying that your body's biomechanics and physiological responses to training are affected by the direction of the force of gravity? Take someone's bike position on a 7% climb, and put that rider in the same position on a flat road, and somehow, things change in the muscles?

[Dr. Doofus]

So, you are saying that your body's biomechanics and physiological responses to training are affected by the direction of the force of gravity? Take someone's bike position on a 7% climb, and put that rider in the same position on a flat road, and somehow, things change in the muscles?

sit back on the saddle when you climb....

on a hill, you have more weight on the butt, less on the hands

this is due to, uh, gravity

on the flats, you have more weight on the hands, less on the butt

on the climbs, you sit further back because you can rest more on your butt...this does change the motor unit patterns slightly. doof supposes you could contort yourself to ride in a similar position on the flats, but then it wouldn't be the same because you'd have to contort yourself to do it....


doof started elevating his front wheel on the trainer to work on that position in 1997, after hearing keen give a presentation that focused on what he'd learned training boardman and the work they did on converting him from a TT specialist on the track to a stage racer. the same week doof heard a credible source say ferrari and cecchini advocated the same thing as a "worst case" fix -- you can't climb a hill, you're in the lab or on a trainer, elevate the damn front wheel. those guys know more than you and doof and all the idiots on the watt forum put togther....

[Dr. Doofus]

anyway

there has to be something KL and the doof can agree on

so

are lil chocolate donuts yummy, or what?

[Tom]

On flat ground, gravity pulls you down differently than it does when you're angled upward so you change your body angle to maintain the same forward and back balance, I think.

[93legendti]

http://members.aol.com/neingraham/Fitness.html#Cycling%20for%20Life

Scroll down to: "The Conconi Method of Cycling for Life"

[Ken Lehner]

anyway

there has to be something KL and the doof can agree on

so

are lil chocolate donuts yummy, or what?

How about this: the best way to train for climbing is to climb.

(I've sworn off ice cream and chocolate covered marshmallows for the next six months)

[weisan]

Len-pal, as I was out doing my lunch ride earlier, it got me thinking about a couple of things.

What do you think of the idea of finding a suitable testing ground where you can go and establish a baseline and then maybe 1/2-3/4 part way of your training, go back again and see where you are at in terms of the improvments made. In other words, you can continue to do the bulk of your training close to home but make the minimum investment in the time and the money to go and test your legs on a hillclimb. This will help you gauge your progress and give you a certain comfort level going into the mt.washington hillclimb. You will still suffer either way...but maybe suffer LESS! :D

Just a thought.