How does a framebuilder's experience translate into better frames?

[SlackMan]

I've been thinking about this question lately: How does a framebuilder's experience translate into making better frames? It seems like building a larger number of frames over a longer time doesn't necessarily translate into better framebuilding. The key element seems to be feedback about what is good and what is bad, and then revising future framebuilding based on the feedback.

For example, suppose a framebuilder starts out systematically building frames that are overbuilt and ride relatively harshly for the riders (buyers). If the framebuilder doesn't ride all of the frames, and the buyer either doesn't realize the frame is overbuilt or does not share his opinion with the framebuilder, how would the framebuilder ever get information to change his future designs? A rough parallel dates back to my grad school days when I had the following exchange with a professor: "Boy, I've been doing it this way for 25 years!" followed by my "Well, you've been doing it wrong a really long time!" No one had ever told the professor that what he was doing was wrong even though objectively it was.

An implication is that a framebuilder who solicits feedback and informed buyers willing to share that feedback could improve his designs relatively quickly. In contrast, a framebuilder who doesn't receive feedback on his frames (and doesn't ride all of them, which isn't practical anyway given size differences) could be stuck making suboptimal frames for many, many years.

I'm not saying this happens. I'm just wondering about it because I will probably be picking out a framebuilder sometime in the near term. I would appreciate any feedback about the above.

[eddief]

they keep building frames and customers keep paying $2K or more per frame...and they keep producing crap. Seems your hypothetical is based on overthinking a mostly non existent fear based reality. Why would you think anyone would build in vacuum that does not include customer feedback?

I would think knowing a crap load about geometry, the basic properties of steel or ti, and then building 25 or so frames for a bunch of diffferent folks would probably be enough. And most probably go to school or do apprenticeships where the skill and knowledge is tuned before they ever get paid to do it on their own.

[SlackMan]

...I would think knowing a crap load about geometry, the basic properties of steel or ti, and then building 25 or so frames for a bunch of diffferent folks would probably be enough. And most probably go to school or do apprenticeships where the skill and knowledge is tuned before they ever get paid to do it on their own.

Fair enough. So does that mean a framebuilder can get the bulk of experience he needs in 25 frames, which might only be one year of framebuilding. And that 20 years of experience is not necessarily hugely better than 1-2 years of experience. Again, I want to emphasize that I don't have an opinion on this--it is just a question I have been thinking about.

[RedRider]

I once interviewed a candidate who had "11 years experience" in the same position. After an indepth conversation, I realized he had one year experience repeated 11 times.
Experience should bring evolution of product and/or process.

And according to Richard Sachs;
“You can’t be a doctor after taking a surgery crash course or by reading ‘Doctors for Dummies’. These people get some tubes and a jig and they think they’re instantly a frame builder. Well, they’re not. Not until they make 500 frames and show, after a decade or two, that they hold up. Frame building, in a way, is like Latin. Nobody speaks Latin, nobody likes Latin, except for scholars.”

[eddief]

what could be hugely better about a set of tubes hooked together with flux and solder? the hugeness would probably be the difference, in most cases, between $1500 and $4000. in many cases what we all go wow about is the paint and that is usually the work of another artist all together.

on the other hand, Doug Curtiss at Curtlo has been building for 20 years and he can hook em together nicely for $900.

[fourflys]

this is how I see it...

I'm not paying a custom builder $$$$ for how pretty he or she can produce a weld or paint a frame... there are lots of people who lay down a pretty weld or a lovely pinstripe...

I'm paying for that builder's knowledge on how to take my dimensions/how I ride and translate that into the best frame for me (we should never be telling a builder to use xx.x* ht angle, we aren't the professionals)...

the statement above is why I decided to get on Richard Sach's list a few years back... Richard has been building for over 30 years and I've never heard of a bad experience with his product... Richard builds you the bike he thinks you need, and that is what I'm paying for... I would have no issues going with a Kirk/Strong/Spectrum/Rock Lobster/etc as pretty much all have stellar track records with customers...

if you're around the cycling community long enough, you'll figure out who is worth going to and who might be a gamble...

[sitzmark]

I've been thinking about this question lately: How does a framebuilder's experience translate into making better frames?

If one knows the physics of materials and structure, but also has an understanding for the "art" and creativity that yields something unique, then like a master chef (brewer, vinter, etc.) they can play in the "kitchen" with results that scream with eye-popping flavor or subtle complexity that lingers on the palate.

Cookie cutters need not apply ....

[fourflys]

And that 20 years of experience is not necessarily hugely better than 1-2 years of experience.

not even close in my opinion... no way a builder can perfect their craft in 25 frames... any builder worth their salt should be telling you their most recents frames are much better than their first frames... if they say different, I'd go elsewhere...

think about your career you have now... are you a better xxxxx than you were when you started? I'm in the medical field in the military... I'd like to think I'm a better practitioner now than when I started 20 yrs ago...

[Peter P.]

Depends how you define "better".

My initial reaction was, they learn to make fewer assembly mistakes and develop processes and tooling for quicker, more accurate assembly and results in a straighter, longer lasting frame. This internal feedback may be frames that come back broken. If a pattern develops, the builder begins to question their manufacturing and works to solve the problem.

The gist of your post seems to focus on fit and ride qualities. While framebuilders may not receive feedback from ALL customers, after some time they probably receive enough that their material and assembly methods and choices evolve. This is external feedback and is just as essential as internal feedback.

[eddief]

don't you think the variables in health care are "hugely" more huge than those required to build a bike? I am not saying there is not a body of knowledge required to be a great frame builder, but the number of variables are limited to arms, legs, torso, weight...and then the right tubes that fit those things and riding style. I guess there are two big areas of expertise - being a fitter and being a craftsman. Still not sure it is a craft that benefits a great deal after frame number 25 along with apprenticeship or mentoring or school with practicum.

not even close in my opinion... no way a builder can perfect their craft in 25 frames... any builder worth their salt should be telling you their most recents frames are much better than their first frames... if they say different, I'd go elsewhere...

think about your career you have now... are you a better xxxxx than you were when you started? I'm in the medical field in the military... I'd like to think I'm a better practitioner now than when I started 20 yrs ago...

[Peter P.]

(we should never be telling a builder to use xx.x* ht angle, we aren't the professionals)...

Well, you're gonna think I'm nuts, but that's exactly what I did.

I had a particular geometry in mind; what I had to do was find a builder who would build it.

Granted, my body dimensions aren't weird so that part wasn't going to be a problem. I figured just about any framebuilder would settle on specs the same or close to what I am already riding.

I really wanted specific dimensions with regard to head angle, fork rake, BB drop, and chainstay length.

So I DID find the builder and he had no problem agreeing to build the frame. He's been in business for years with hundreds if not thousands of frames under his belt. I expect to take delivery in a month or two. It remains to be seen whether I've designed crap or not. I'll be sure and post here once I've ridden it.

I only mention all this not to refute your assertion, but to voice the opinion that while it's quite possible for the "un-framebuilder" to design a poor frame, it's also quite possible at times that the customer has enough knowledge and bike experience to design a frame that rides competently. It's part of the framebuilder's job to recognize the difference.

P.S. I also designed the first custom frame I owned back in 1979 when I was barely out of high school and clearly lacking in cycling experience and knowledge. It was too large and too long in the top tube among other things, so I can fully understand where you're coming from.

[fourflys]

you guys should read this...

http://www.headsetpress.co.uk/features/the-goodrich-story-by-donkey-label/

[SlackMan]

...
And according to Richard Sachs;
“You can’t be a doctor after taking a surgery crash course or by reading ‘Doctors for Dummies’. These people get some tubes and a jig and they think they’re instantly a frame builder. Well, they’re not. Not until they make 500 frames and show, after a decade or two, that they hold up. Frame building, in a way, is like Latin. Nobody speaks Latin, nobody likes Latin, except for scholars.”

Interesting that you quote this because it was one of the primary quotes that started me thinking about my question. The quote seems to imply a framebuilder cannot be thought of as a master until he builds a large number of frames that have lasted a really long time.

[fourflys]

Still not sure it is a craft that benefits a great deal after frame number 25 along with apprenticeship or mentoring or school with practicum.

if all you do is build cookie-cutter frames according to a geometry chart, then I agree with you...

but if you want to be able to build a bike for a person and ONLY that person, then I think you'll need more than 25 frames to be able to determine what will work best for a certain person... and if you don't want that as a customer, there as plenty of well-built off the shelf frames to choose from that match many customs in pure build quality (might not be a pretty, but will work just as well)...


and to the other point above- I'm sure some non-builders will pick a certain geometry and be ok... I just know I know enough about bikes to know I know nothing when it comes to designing them...

think of it this way... most contractors can build a multi-million dollar mansion just fine... but it takes an experienced architect to get out of the owners what they really want the house to be and then translate that onto blueprints...

[fourflys]

Interesting that you quote this because it was one of the primary quotes that started me thinking about my question. The quote seems to imply a framebuilder cannot be thought of as a master until he builds a large number of frames that have lasted a really long time.

and Richard will be the first one to tell you his current frames are light years ahead of his first frames after he came back from England...

[eddief]

then I got a bridge for ya. He uses the same metaphor I did but me thinks goes overboard to stroke himself. Don't get me wrong. I believe he is great at what he does, is a smart business guy, and his wonderful ego is spread all over the net. Have him explain to us what the differences were between frame 25 and frame 500. This is an interesting conversation and I mean no bad mouthing of the great builders. Just question the amount of experience required to be quite good.

“You can’t be a doctor after taking a surgery crash course or by reading ‘Doctors for Dummies’. These people get some tubes and a jig and they think they’re instantly a frame builder. Well, they’re not. Not until they make 500 frames and show, after a decade or two, that they hold up. Frame building, in a way, is like Latin. Nobody speaks Latin, nobody likes Latin, except for scholars.” Goodrich is a scholar.

you guys should read this...

http://www.headsetpress.co.uk/features/the-goodrich-story-by-donkey-label/

[fourflys]

so you're saying you're not any better at your job now than then at your one year anniversary?

[eddief]

not 8 tubes. Yes I was better after a few years, but did a great job after serving a short apprenticeship. I don't think we disagree that the more experience the better, but at some point we are good enough and don't need 10000 hours. Up to each of us to decide what we need to be satisfied.

so you're saying you're not any better at your job now than then at your one year anniversary?

[fourflys]

not 8 tubes.

I guess I see a custom frame I'm paying several thousands of dollars for more than just "8 tubes"... could a builder be competent after 75 frames? Sure, but would he/she have a better understanding of the synergy of those 8 tubes after 500 frames?

for a custom, I don't want just competent...

[giverdada]

this is a great and interesting discussion, and it does seem to be boiling down to that last point about what exactly is different between frame #25 and frame #500 or #5000. what is it that happens in 10 000 hours that makes one a master. repetition that results in _____________? efficiency of _______________ (action/reaction/application of knowledge gained/etc.)? i asked one of my local mechanics about wheelbuilding and what would be different between him building one and me doing it. he said, 'maybe nothing. i might do it faster, make fewer mistakes or backtracks along the way, but we may well end up with a wheel just as true and round as each other.' i imagine we'd have quite a bit of difference, definitely in process, and likely in result, but i don't know why. i don't know what there is, specifically, that happens in the 'mastering' of anything. framebuilding is a huge multi-faceted and multi-step process wherein each component has a huge number of variables, each of which can be adjusted. i imagine that tuning each of these thought- and hand-processes would take a whole lot of instances to make efficient. that means a lot of frames built for a lot of different bodies with a lot of different measurements, lengths, angles, tubesets, butting, swaging, joint fasteners, etc. in terms of numbers of frames, i don't know, but i do know that garnering that much knowledge in and of itself would take years.

i run now better than i ever have in my life. some people say it's because the miles build up in our legs and our legs 'remember' per se. i think a lot of complex skill sets have a lot of memories to make and recall and make work in concert with one another, efficiently. this will take years. maybe 10000 hours...

[dekindy]

Have him explain to us what the differences were between frame 25 and frame 500. This is an interesting conversation.


Now that would be very interesting. Taking some early clients, explaining their dimensions, desired riding characteristics, and the resulting design, and then highlighting the differences that they would recommend if the same person came to them now. That would be two parts. First, based upon the materials and building methods available then, and also how that recommendation would be changed today using the most current materials and methods.

Also, for the builders that do multiple materials, like Carl Strong, or switched from steel to carbon, like John Slawta, those would be very interesting case studies.

[SlackMan]

Thanks, giverdada. I thought it was an interesting question. :) As a researcher who tries to publish my research and a teacher who tries to teach students skills and information, I get clear feedback on how I am doing and whether changes I make are better or worse. So additional years provide me with additional information about whether I am improving vs just maintaining quality.

My original post was simply asking how this happens for framebuilders because I could imagine that many don't ride all the frames they make, and many buyers/riders have no idea of what the optimal or perfect ride would feel like. For example, I am riding a stock frame that feels pretty nice compared to the frame I was on. If someone had "custom designed" it for me, I would think it's a success. But since I have likely not ridden the perfect frame for me, I can't know how good or bad the current stock frame is. And IF it had in fact been custom designed, I would only say it is better than what I had before...but that wouldn't really tell the framebuilder that he has hit the optimal spot for me so he couldn't know based on my feedback.

[RedRider]

not 8 tubes. Yes I was better after a few years, but did a great job after serving a short apprenticeship. I don't think we disagree that the more experience the better, but at some point we are good enough and don't need 10000 hours. Up to each of us to decide what we need to be satisfied.

It's funny that you mentioned 10,000 hours.
In the book Outliers: The Story of Success written by Malcolm Gladwell, he examines the factors that contribute to high levels of success.
Gladwell citing many examples explains the "10,000-Hour Rule", claiming that the key to success in any field is, to a large extent, a matter of practicing a specific task for a total of around 10,000 hours.

[e-RICHIE]

It's funny that you mentioned 10,000 hours.
In the book Outliers: The Story of Success written by Malcolm Gladwell, he examines the factors that contribute to high levels of success.
Gladwell citing many examples explains the "10,000-Hour Rule", claiming that the key to success in any field is, to a large extent, a matter of practicing a specific task for a total of around 10,000 hours.

And that's where I come in to this. The writer of CPG's story mined words I used over six years ago to speak to his own Malcolm Gladwell reference. They (my words) had relevance only in the conversation that occurred between the two folks representing Rapha and myself - and only made true sense in the context of the day the interview was taped, and the agenda they had for the story they were writing. Why my words were mined for today's story is something only the writer can answer.

And eddief - if you have a question for me and want to have a civil conversation without any of the characterizations or personal baggage that already have been aired earlier, let me know. I rented a mailbox in Norhfield and would be happy to exchange letters with you and clear up any of the issues that you seem to have about what's done at the bench.

[eddief]

I would like to apologize for the "ego" comment. That was a slap for no good reason...and I tried to add some balance with a more right handed and heart felt compliment. It showed a lack of respect where none was called for. I know you are at the top of the craft and I simply question how much experience is required to make a really good bike. I know that concept of really good is a fuzzy goal and think it probably can be achieved at different points on a fairly wide scale. No doubt the 500th one will be better, and you might know that, but I doubt your average customer would.

Again, I apologize to you and wish you nothing but the best.


eddief


And that's where I come in to this. The writer of CPG's story mined words I used over six years ago to speak to his own Malcolm Gladwell reference. They (my words) had relevance only in the conversation that occurred between the two folks representing Rapha and myself - and only made true sense in the context of the day the interview was taped, and the agenda they had for the story they were writing. Why my words were mined for today's story is something only the writer can answer.

And eddief - if you have a question for me and want to have a civil conversation without any of the characterizations or personal baggage that already have been aired earlier, let me know. I rented a mailbox in Norhfield and would be happy to exchange letters with you and clear up any of the issues that you seem to have about what's done at the bench.

[mister]

where the experience comes in is design and communication
i have a frame built for me from a dude that's been building since the mid 70's

i explained to him what i wanted
he knew how to design it
they built it
it's effin awesome and still my main ride after 4 or 5 years

i see bikes built by newer builders
and the craftsmanship is there...but the design makes me say wth
i know i wouldn't ride that one for very long at all

[e-RICHIE]

I would like to apologize for the "ego" comment. That was a slap for no good reason...and I tried to add some balance with a more right handed and heart felt compliment. It showed a lack of respect where none was called for. I know you are at the top of the craft and I simply question how much experience is required to make a really good bike. I know that concept of really good is a fuzzy goal and think it probably can be achieved at different points on a fairly wide scale. No doubt the 500th one will be better, and you might know that, but I doubt your average customer would.

Again, I apologize to you and wish you nothing but the best.


eddief

Here is what I wrote to eddief, and will share it here:
Thanks - accepted!

PS I made my 500th frame around 1980, so it's been a long run forward since even that unit. After a while, you develop a sense. And then the sense gets dialed in. And years later, it spreads out and more senses arrive and they get honed. It never ends. If it did, there would be no reason at all to continue.

I can't explain it. And luckily I don't have to.

Thanks again for the reach out.

[firerescuefin]

I once interviewed a candidate who had "11 years experience" in the same position. After an indepth conversation, I realized he had one year experience repeated 11 times.
Experience should bring evolution of product and/or process.

Love this quote!:cool:

[OtayBW]

It's funny that you mentioned 10,000 hours.
In the book Outliers: The Story of Success written by Malcolm Gladwell, he examines the factors that contribute to high levels of success.
Gladwell citing many examples explains the "10,000-Hour Rule", claiming that the key to success in any field is, to a large extent, a matter of practicing a specific task for a total of around 10,000 hours.

Standard deviation of 10000 'units' = 10000^0.5 = 100.
100/10000 = 1% relative error

Standard deviation of 100 'units' = 100^0.5 = 10.
10/100 = 10% error

No surprise this guy picked 10000 'tries' as his figure to get something 'right'. It's a numbers thing.

[54ny77]

i had a carbon bike that was probably the 10,000th frame of that model and size. maybe more. who knows.

oh, it was f'd up.

those damned molds.

[martl]

Well first, there is the craftsmanship with the chosen material and bonding process. I am told that it can take a few years until one can reliably produce perfect joints on a regular basis. Of course, as with all skills, some aquire them faster than others.

Then there is the geometry, and the choice of material for the given purpose of the bike. A builder very good at making bikes for racers may produce a mediocre relaxed tourer, or a bike for a very small or very large person. I agree with those that said this experience is gained from close interaction with the given target group.

[happycampyer]

i had a carbon bike that was probably the 10,000th frame of that model and size. maybe more. who knows.

oh, it was f'd up.

those damned molds.yes, but it was probably being assembled by a new, 13-yr old recruit. By the time they're 15, they're practically blind from shards of carbon in their eyes. At least Parlee gave you a new frame. The kid who f'ed up the first one probably was beaten.

[LouDeeter]

You don't know what you don't know. After 10,000 hours of building, one would think there are not a lot of things that a builder doesn't know. But, process improvement is a continuum.

[FlashUNC]

I think it does a make a difference.

When I was talking with Mr Della Santa about getting my latest frame built, I mentioned in passing the reason I was calling was a LeMond frame I had recently acquired and built up that had passed through his shop in the 80's, when he was building them on contract for Greg's nascent bike company efforts.

The first thing out of Roland's mouth after hearing I had one and ridden it was an apology, which caught me by surprise. The bike was (and is) fantastic, and to that point, one of the finest steel bikes I'd ever ridden.
I asked why he felt the need to apologize for those bikes. He said they were building close to 90 bikes a year under that contract, so 3-4 per week, and were "nothing like what I'm building now."

So I jokingly asked if I had to worry about the thing falling apart or crab walking down the road or something else over time. He said I didn't, but that he'd learned a thing or two about building bikes in the intervening 25 or so years, and what I was getting today would be a very different product from what he was making then. (Never mind that Roland already had over a decade of experience building bikes at the time he was making the LeMonds, and was an experienced builder in his own right...)

But he was right. The frame I got this Spring is -- by far -- the best steel frame I've ever ridden and blows the LeMond out of the water. You can see similar traits in how the bike handles and feels between my custom and the 80's LeMond, but the custom amplifies all the great traits, and minimizes some of the weaknesses.

Lot to be said for experience imo.

[54ny77]

yeah that was first world problems, eh?

;)

at least now i'm riding a bigbikeco. frame that is probably the 742,316th model to pop out from factory. perhaps a whole generation of family members owe their future health problems so i can ride something that is 38.6% better than the prior model's iteration.

:rolleyes:

hey flash: i'm in the cue. the #'s are goin' in to d.s. somehow, i'm not worried about his experience behind a torch.

yes, but it was probably being assembled by a new, 13-yr old recruit. By the time they're 15, they're practically blind from shards of carbon in their eyes. At least Parlee gave you a new frame. The kid who f'ed up the first one probably was beaten.

[JAGI410]

Do you think there is a point in a builders career in which they are simply going through the motions? All the focus and concentration is no longer needed and it's nearly robotic? Perhaps some of the "soul" is missing from the end product.

I've been in my line of work for 15 years and I'm good at my job, but there are certainly days when I've simply gone through the motions and put things on paper that weren't my best.

[Doug Fattic]

The 10,000 hour thing is definitely overrated as a requirement to build frames properly. One of the primary differences of experience is how long it takes to do something. And that has to do with profit more than quality. I would estimate that one of my framebuilding class students takes roughly 3 times as long to file a joint as it would take me. And they have trouble knowing what standard is good enough and more is unnecessary. Good instruction makes a huge difference. The trial and error learning curve is a lot lot longer. And some start with either inherited or acquired skills that put them much closer to the finish line when they start building frames than others.

I'm happy to show people any of my single digit frames. I had a great instructor and that was the difference. You are going to see some stylistic but not visible quality differences between then and now. Certainly what experience has taught me is how to choose the right tubing for a particular customer. And there is also a lot more knowledge (in the framebuilding community as well as in my head) about how to properly fit someone (particularly those on the ends of the bell curve) than when I started in 1975.

Building a frame is primarily about getting the brazing right (the length of time doing it while keeping it within its temperature window and getting it everywhere it should be and nowhere it shouldn't), mitering right, keeping the tubes in plane or equidistant to that plane and making the right materials and design choices. Some of my students (but certainly not all) have made frames as nice as many show frames at NAHBS on there very 1st try. They will get the brazing (no overcooking) and alignment right. It just took them a lot more hours to make. Of course they had backup if they needed it through tight spots. I'll repeat my point again. Good instruction (and inherited and acquired skills) greatly reduces the learning curve.

Painting was by far my longest learning curve. Figuring out the spray sequence and getting the muscle memory motions down so I could do the final clears in minutes took 100's of frames to get it right. And that was partly due to only partly being taught how in the first place.

[Ahneida Ride]

Kelly substituted a down tube for a seat tube in my Bedford.
Of course, this modification forced Kelly to rebuild the BB.

How did he just know that a standard seat tube was sub optimal?

Maybe 30+ years of experience, building 1000's of frames and designing
even more.

Would a nascent builder make the substitution?

It is a probability event. The more experienced the builder. the higher the
probability that the tube selection will be correct, the brazing/welding
will be solid, and the end result will be what you want. That is the bike
rides the way you want it to.

[Ahneida Ride]

Do you think there is a point in a builders career in which they are simply going through the motions?



perhaps Yes ... if you build the same style over and over again.

Definitely No ... if you are truly custom and have to meet the specific demands
of each unique customer. Expect to be challenged.

[David Kirk]

I think it's natural to want to relate the number of bikes/years a builder has been doing his thing to the quality of the end product but I think there isn't a linear and direct relationship between the two. I feel strongly that the number of bikes/years the builder has under his belt is just one of many things that should be looked at.

I've been blessed to have been given the opportunity to teach a good number of folks to build and I'd say that all of those guys could be put into one of two groups. Group 1 - the curious, Group 2 - the un-curious.

The curious folks are the ones who even over a short period of time are compelled to try different things.........different tubes, different materials, different processes, different designs, different types of bikes, different construction methods, different fitting methods......etc. and to throw out the stuff that didn't work and embrace the stuff that did. These guys tend to be fabricators at their core and they build all kinds of things and this cross over learning benefits the bikes they build. Over time this curiosity breeds a better machine. Are there a few duds and trips down the wrong roads during the process - yes. But without taking a few wrong turns how does one know they are headed the right and best way?

The non-curious folks are the ones that are not compelled to try different things. They usually are folks adverse to change and just want to buckle down and make stuff the way they were taught to and call it a day. This can be both good and bad. If they happened to be taught to build the 'best way' and they don't change anything over time they will put out bikes are that just fine. That said I've never seen a guy who was taught the 'best way' as that is certainly a moving target and what was best in 1990 will likely not be the best in 2000 and 2010.

Of the guys I've taught to build over time the majority turned out to be non-curious and these guys built as a job and not as a career and most have gone onto other things. The few that were curious have gone on to acclaim and success as builders.

--------------------------------

One other thing that relates to the above. If the builder has 5000 bikes under his belt that is no doubt something to consider but there is no guarantee that he didn't build all of them in a mediocre way if he didn't exercise curiosity along the way to find the best path. In other words if he does the same thing each and every time there is no difference between the first bike and the 5000th so the number of bikes built can't be used as an indicator of quality.

So lots of bikes/years is never a bad thing but it's not a guarantee of a good thing........it's how the builder spends his time over those bikes and years and if he is learning and striving to always make the next bike the best one he ever made.

Bench time for me.

Dave

[FlashUNC]

hey flash: i'm in the cue. the #'s are goin' in to d.s. somehow, i'm not worried about his experience behind a torch.

I've gotten the sense he knows what he's doing.

At least, that's my comfort when my fat butt is screaming downhill at 40 mph on his frame.

[54ny77]

40? sheesh, his frames are rated at 60+.

I've gotten the sense he knows what he's doing.

At least, that's my comfort when my fat butt is screaming downhill at 40 mph on his frame.

[FlashUNC]

40? sheesh, his frames are rated at 60+.

Don't have hills quite that long or steep here in the Queen City. Now when I head west to Asheville....my goal is to get the Ossobucco stays to whistle.

[fuzzalow]

^^What Dave Kirk has posted is concise and speaks precisely to the core of one of the underpinnings of the drive for excellence. And is equally applicable to virtually any endeavor or occupation. IMHO.

Many a bloke has mistakenly believed that training for something would grant them a profession. When in practice all they got out of the training was learning a procedure. This simplistic approach is perhaps good enough to get by but never good enough to be great.

[Ahneida Ride]

How does a Pilots hours in the Cockpit translate into experience?

is 5000 uneventful hours superior to 700 eventful hours ?

The elapse of time does not necessarily equate to experience.

So .... what is the definition of experience ?

[kayten]

I had 4 customs frames made by 4 different builders, plus another one coming along the way. All 4 frames have different geometries. Three of the early frames were totally my own idea of how I feel I should be on the bike.
Frame No.1 was a square steel frame. Frame No.2 was titanium sloping frame. Frame No.3 a scandium cross frame. All 3 frames were built off the net, after giving the respective builders my body dimensions plus 3 lines of feedback.
I decided to actually go for a frame fit for frame no.4. The builder eyeballed me for a good hour on the bike, and took dimensions of my anatomy. He also took photos of me on the bike. I was skeptical about the whole process, and, despite my limited knowledge, and minimal "10 years" riding experience, questioned his decision and final output. I decided to go along with his suggestions with much apprehension.
The final result was a surprising sweet ride and a bike, that was in a shipbuilding sense, "eye sweet". From a standard square frame sense, the builder downsize me by a couple of centimeters, and also lowered my saddle height. Needless to say, I was totally proven wrong and now strongly suggest that a personal bike fit with the builder is essential.
A good builder, has to be a good fitter too, and a cyclist.....IMHO

[jlwdm]

...
A good builder, has to be a good fitter too, and a cyclist.....IMHO

All good builders are not good fitters though. There are some "curious" fitters out there who are always getting better. My preference is to be fit by my fitter and then the fitter works with the builder. Although this was not true with my Spectrum.


I agree with what Dave Kirk said - in any job. I am "curious" and want to be better at my job every day. I sell real estate and every morning around 6:00 a.m. I am checking updates to make sure I know every change on a property in my market before I come in contact with anyone that day. And this "curiosity" is prevalent throughout my business.

Just hours alone will never be enough. In all fields there are people who pick up things faster and are better than others. A passion for the work does not hurt either.



Jeff

[SlackMan]

I think Dave nailed the answer to my original question. I suspected that there might be builders who do the same thing over and over again, and thus do not really improve. And the more curious types seek continuous improvement, so they must get useful feedback through experimentation and other methods.

Now, if someone could just compile a useful list of the curious and non-curious builders, I would be set. ;)

[sevencyclist]

Now, if someone could just compile a useful list of the curious and non-curious builders, I would be set. ;)

I will start:

Curious: Kirk, Della Santa

[Louis]

We need to be careful here. There are a number of way one can improve one's bike frames, some obvious on inspection, others less so. Just because year after year someone continues to produce what looks like the same frame, doesn't mean that he isn't improving the design, honing his craft.

[WickedWheels]

You know what I wonder about... How many builders are riding other bikes? Other materials? Production bikes?

The materials are getting better and so are the production bikes. Are these guys comparing their product to the likes of Giant/Trek/Specialized just to make sure that they can take some of the desirable riding characteristics of these bikes and apply it to their product?

I honestly don't know that I would be out test riding Giants if I were building bikes like Richard Sachs. I would hope that I would... just once in a while... but I would probably get snobby about it and take another steel builder's bike out for a spin instead.

[e-RICHIE]

You know what I wonder about... How many builders are riding other bikes? Other materials? Production bikes?

The materials are getting better and so are the production bikes. Are these guys comparing their product to the likes of Giant/Trek/Specialized just to make sure that they can take some of the desirable riding characteristics of these bikes and apply it to their product?

I honestly don't know that I would be out test riding Giants if I were building bikes like Richard Sachs. I would hope that I would... just once in a while... but I would probably get snobby about it and take another steel builder's bike out for a spin instead.
If you were me, you would. And I do atmo.

[WickedWheels]

If you were me, you would. And I do atmo.

awesome!