Truth and Reconcilliation

[firerescuefin]

Saw Zabel come out today.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/news/erik-zabel-admits-using-epo-cortisone-and-transfusions_297265

Not mad or surprised....but how does the UCI and powers to be think that articles like this being released sporadically...for years to come is better than taking some epicac and just vomiting it up and getting it out of the system forever...and pretty much put and end to this BS....:help:

[54ny77]

Tainted schnitzel.

[MattTuck]

Yeah, I agree. From the 90s through today, there is a presumption of guilt I think... this doesn't do much.

My recipe for dealing with the doping problem.

1. Amnesty for past offenses for those not caught yet, assuming they go the WADA and disclose their doping methodology.

2. Longer first time suspension, probably 3 years, that can be reduced to 1 year if doping techniques/personnel are described to make testing efforts more effective; and a life-time suspension for a second positive that includes working or consulting for protour teams.

3. Whistle-blower system that operates independent from UCI.

[Tony T]

Does he get to keep his Green Jerseys?

[firerescuefin]

:cool::):hello:

I'd buy it.



Yeah, I agree. From the 90s through today, there is a presumption of guilt I think... this doesn't do much.

My recipe for dealing with the doping problem.

1. Amnesty for past offenses for those not caught yet, assuming they go the WADA and disclose their doping methodology.

2. Longer first time suspension, probably 3 years, that can be reduced to 1 year if doping techniques/personnel are described to make testing efforts more effective; and a life-time suspension for a second positive that includes working or consulting for protour teams.

3. Whistle-blower system that operates independent from UCI.

[MattTuck]

:cool::):hello:

I'd buy it.

I do worry about false positives though, or unintentional positives. The story of Iljo Keisse is instructive on that. I have no idea if he was really innocent or not, but he fought tooth and nail against his suspension on principle. Makes me think that he probably didn't intend to ingest whatever supplement he tested positive for.

Stricter penalties would perhaps make riders more aware of what they're putting in their bodies. On the other hand, many of the riders are not well educated and probably have to put their trust to some extent in sponsors, coaches and doctors. Definitely no easy fix.

[54ny77]

Coming soon: Masters World Doping Tour, p/b Viagra, Amgen and Tommy Bahama.

Categories include: Open; B1 (Busted once), and B2+ (Busted 2x or more).

[cachagua]

With handicaps? Meaning, if you're that old, and that slow, you're actually given drugs to make you at least competitive?

Because, that's the only way I'll ever get 'em. . .

[harryblack]

what's funny/pathetic is Zabel is still lying... like he just quit in 2003! And didn't he get popped once before 1996?

it's not gonna change anyone's opinion of Lance person/athlete but now is he not only seven-time TdF champ, he's not quite the unique drug fiend/kingpin x # of self-righteous 'moralists' (sic) said he was.

oh, but how Erik loved to ride!

http://photos.grahamwatson.com/Exhibits/Geelong-Eyes-on-the-World/World-Champions/14071423_7NRH7R/1036636898_8z4BKdQ#!i=1036636898&k=8z4BKdQ

just like Jens Voigt-- now surely the most tumescent of all German "hard men"-- still does!

[harlond]

Stricter penalties would perhaps make riders more aware of what they're putting in their bodies. On the other hand, many of the riders are not well educated and probably have to put their trust to some extent in sponsors, coaches and doctors. Definitely no easy fix.Nothing has happened in the last 20 years that would support the notion that stricter penalties accomplish anything. If two years isn't enough, there's no reason to think three is.

[Ozrider]

Got to agree with MattTuck.
We need to have an Amnesty period, with no repercussions for anyone admitting doping during the amnesty. If they don't admit and are later proven to have doped, a lifetime ban from the sport, including any management/administration/coaching position.

Then, starting on a clean slate, anyone caught doping the first time getting a 3 or 4year suspension, and a lifetime ban if bust again.
Removing ex dopers from positions as coach / directeur sportif / manager/ team owner positions would go a long way to clean up the sport.
These days with electronics, it would not be too hard to download power meter data from the top 10 finishers in ALL Professional races, and tracking riders data. Any sudden spike or anomalies should then be investigated.
The UCI and WADA could do a lot more to prevent doping, and deal with their investigations in a much more timely manner.

[bikemoore]

I see that Mario Cipollini's name was also on the list. Have yet to see statements to the press or big news stories about his presence on this list. I think Mario's presence on this list is as big a news story as Zabel's....why the silence so far?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . or at least what I've seen so far, was a big yawn for me. Like ANY of this is a surprise any more? It would be more of a revelation if proof came forward that Zabel, alone out of the peloton, had NOT been doping.

Now there's talk of why the sanctions are not being applied EQUALLY across cycling. For me Lance is still different, and always will be, because he didn't just dope. He forced others to dope, and the vicious, vindictive, revenge-fueled bullying behavior he exhibited were far beyond anything else I've seen.

BBD

[jamesau]

...were far beyond anything else I've seen.

BBD

It seems much of the specifics of the sport's past doping transgressions remains unrevealed...

[harryblack]

Now there's talk of why the sanctions are not being applied EQUALLY across cycling. For me Lance is still different, and always will be, because he didn't just dope. He forced others to dope, and the vicious, vindictive, revenge-fueled bullying behavior he exhibited were far beyond anything else I've seen.

BBD

Please. This is a paradigm for intellectual dishonesty. Yes, he "forced" them-- OMG!!!

Exactly who "forced" everyone else, including teammates on other teams both before and after LA remains for you to answer, though I won't wait for you to do the research, nor to research/read history on any # of subjects (sports, biz, art, politics, etc) which would put Lance's d-bag-ness (on which quality we don't disagree though I believe Bill Stapleton should have had his feet held to media fire also) in a CONTEXT you're too frothing to recognize-- at to at least admit, if such postings are part of a relentlessly bullying anti-bullying "persona" and not your true beliefs.

He Forced Others...

[Dave B]

If they o an amnesty period then Armstrong wins those 7 races. Be a huge slap in the face for the UCI not to mention the law suits he is currently in would be metaphor died. "See, I actually did win those!"

[Formulasaab]

Please. This is a paradigm for intellectual dishonesty. Yes, he "forced" them-- OMG!!!

Agreed.
The riders on Lance's teams were some of the best in the world and would be or had already been welcome on other top teams. They all WANTED to be a part of his team and worked hard to get there and to stay there.

[Formulasaab]

“Basically, my selfishness was the strongest (thing).”

Now, Zabel told the German newspaper, he wants to be able “to look in the mirror again.”

Boy, that sounds familiar.

[Mark McM]

Does he get to keep his Green Jerseys?

Based on recent precedent, yes. He last won the Green Jersey in 2001. Normally, the statuate of limitations is 8 years. Sanctions can extend further back if it can be shown there was a continuous conspiracy that extended back before the statuate of limitations (as was the case with Lance Armstrong). But there is, as yet, no evidence of a continuous conspiracy in Zabel's case.

[jchasse]

Yeah, I agree. From the 90s through today, there is a presumption of guilt I think... this doesn't do much.

My recipe for dealing with the doping problem.

1. Amnesty for past offenses for those not caught yet, assuming they go the WADA and disclose their doping methodology.

2. Longer first time suspension, probably 3 years, that can be reduced to 1 year if doping techniques/personnel are described to make testing efforts more effective; and a life-time suspension for a second positive that includes working or consulting for protour teams.

3. Whistle-blower system that operates independent from UCI.

Add to this that the Directeur Sportif that the rider rides for also gets 3 yrs for first popped rider and lifetime for 2nd, and you're getting somewhere.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Based on recent precedent, yes. He last won the Green Jersey in 2001. Normally, the statuate of limitations is 8 years. Sanctions can extend further back if it can be shown there was a continuous conspiracy that extended back before the statuate of limitations (as was the case with Lance Armstrong). But there is, as yet, no evidence of a continuous conspiracy in Zabel's case.

. . he made the decision to do it on his own. Nobody forced him to. If THAT part is at least true then there could be no conspiracy.

BBD