Hand signal knowledge would be good ...

[Bruce K]

I darn near hit a cyclist today because the moron doesn't know his hand signals.

An older cyclist (so he should know his hand signals from Driver'sEd) was riding along the shoulder of a 40 mph road.

Just as I am about to pass him he raises his left arm with his upper arm horizontal and his forearm pointing skyward with index finger extended. I take thus to mean that he is about to turn right at the upcoming intersecting road on the right ( in MA that signal means "right turn"), a road I plan to turn into as well. I get to the intersection with enough clearance to make my turn without even a chance if "right hooking" this guy as he will be slowing and turning.

EXCEPT HE DOESN'T !!!!

If I had not double checked to see where he really was before turning I would gave had this guy tide into the side of my car.

On top of this, a car that was about to come out of the side street, seeing me slow down with a signal on, started up and barely missed clocking thus guy as he crossed in front of him.

So we drivers are now both left wondering what exactly he was trying to tell the surrounding traffic.

I guess the point is we all hopefully use either legal or obvious hand signals and not just assume because we made something up that drivers will know what we mean.

Rant over.

BK

[tlittlefield]

When making a turn I always just "point" my intention to the other vehicles around me. I feel that the "driving school" signal for a right hand turn can be misinterpreted as you waving hello to someone.

I have been riding for over 30 years and I find that this is the best way to communicate while on the road.

[Louis]

I'm nearly certain that just abut now on a forum somewhere on the web a cyclist is posting a rant about a driver (who might have been texting) that durn near killed him, even though he was signaling, clear as day.

[beeatnik]

No one under 30 knows hand signals...at least in California.

[Nooch]

i saw a small group (3, maybe 4) guys riding on one of my commute roads that I happened to be driving on that day. 2 or 3 guys on the right should across the street from me (so coming toward me on the correct side of the street), and one on the sidewalk, waiting at a red light. The light proceeded to turn green and they all proceed to make a left turn in front of traffic, without signaling. The one on the sidewalk rode up to the crosswalk, where he then proceeded to jump into traffic 'frogger' style and chase down his buddies.

Sometimes we don't do ourselves (on the whole) any favors...

[Seramount]

that 'old school' right turn signal needs to be retired...it was designed for motorists before the advent of electric turn signals (1938).

cyclists should just point in the direction they're going...then there's no confusion.

[Bruce K]

That would have been OK by me.

I get that some consider it antiquated (along with me - being antiquated I mean) but if you are going to use it, know what it means and Mean it.

BK

[josephr]

On top of this, a car that was about to come out of the side street, seeing me slow down with a signal on, started up and barely missed clocking thus guy as he crossed in front of him.



BK

so this 'cyclist' didn't notice your turn signal or brake lights???

kudos for using your turn signal by the way!
Joe

[biker72]

When making a turn I always just "point" my intention to the other vehicles around me. I feel that the "driving school" signal for a right hand turn can be misinterpreted as you waving hello to someone.

I have been riding for over 30 years and I find that this is the best way to communicate while on the road.

Agree 100%
Instead of "on your left when passing" I just announce "passing".
Had a guy veer to his left right in front of me thinking that's what "on your left" meant.

[liray]

The 90 degree arm signal to turn right was invented, as mentioned before the electric turn signals.
A guy driving a car (obviously sitting on the left) is unable to point in the direction that he is turning because others would not really be able to see him pointing right.

Nowadays, if you're on a bike, nothing is stopping you from pointing in the direction that you're turning. This was just the way this was explained to me.

[Kirk007]

That would have been OK by me.

I get that some consider it antiquated (along with me - being antiquated I mean) but if you are going to use it, know what it means and Mean it.

BK

I'm with you. I don't use it, preferring the more direct signal but I learned it in drivers ed in 1974 and I'm quite certain my son had to learn it for his driver's test 4 years ago, so there's little excuse.

I also agree with others that unfortunately just as high a percentage of folks on bikes are morons on the road as are car drivers.

[Mark McM]

Just as I am about to pass him he raises his left arm with his upper arm horizontal and his forearm pointing skyward with index finger extended. I take thus to mean that he is about to turn right at the upcoming intersecting road on the right ( in MA that signal means "right turn"), a road I plan to turn into as well.

I'm confused; why were you planning to pass him (before you saw him give a hand signal) if you knew you were going to be turning right immediately afterward?

[Bruce K]

Because I was going 40 to his 16 +/-

And it was a curve

BK

[MattTuck]

Agree 100%
Instead of "on your left when passing" I just announce "passing".
Had a guy veer to his left right in front of me thinking that's what "on your left" meant.

Maybe he just didn't want you to pass. You should have told him he was relegated.


as for this situation. Ride and drive defensively. My dad gave me some good advice. "assume everyone else is going to do the most stupid thing you can imagine, and prepare for that."

Although I am not a morning person, I do enjoy the part of riding early in the morning that means essentially no cars on the roads.

[cnighbor1]

Now knowing we dismiss objects coming towards us. I signal with my arm out horizontal and pointing . for left I use my left arm for right I use my right arm.
at same time I move arm a bit so it isn't dismissed

[Jaq]

No prob ranting about it... but why not post a helpful tutorial? There's gotta be a few on the web. Youtube, etc.

[sitzmark]

I'm confused; why were you planning to pass him (before you saw him give a hand signal) if you knew you were going to be turning right immediately afterward?

Hard to say not being there, but if I anticipated a turning cyclist (due to hand signal) I would have followed near an intersection. People in cars signal, then decide wrong street and keep going ... have to anticipate cyclists doing it too. Creates an awkward/dangerous situation no matter who does it.

Left arm signals are still universal in driver and motorcycle manuals ... for use in the event blinkers are/become non-functional. At least in the MA bicycle safety manual either left arm bent 90* up or right arm extended for a right turn is acceptable.

Most people in my ride groups use right-for-right arm signal, so to keep things consistent I do too. When solo I resort to all left arm signals so if I have to brake entering a sandy/gritty turn it isn't using the front brake.

[cc700]

Hard to say not being there, but if I anticipated a turning cyclist (due to hand signal) I would have followed near an intersection. People in cars signal, then decide wrong street and keep going ... have to anticipate cyclists doing it too. Creates an awkward/dangerous situation no matter who does it.

Left arm signals are still universal in driver and motorcycle manuals ... for use in the event blinkers are/become non-functional. At least in the MA bicycle safety manual either left arm bent 90* up or right arm extended for a right turn is acceptable.

Most people in my ride groups use right-for-right arm signal, so to keep things consistent I do too. When solo I resort to all left arm signals so if I have to brake entering a sandy/gritty turn it isn't using the front brake.

Sitzmark; you're absolutely correct and I agree. But, and not to be flippant, buuuuut... None of this matters. Whenever anyone is operating any type of vehicle on any public roadway, the rule is that the operator not overtake unless it can be done so safely, without crossing any other lanes of traffic. This means you don't overtake in an intersection, you don't overtake while performing a turn, you don't overtake when another vehicle is occupying the lane with imminent momentum to be unable to avoid a collision without changing their path of travel. These are universal laws and every state has them, it's the same everywhere. These laws are there for everyone's safety. If you were to have done so with the other vehicle being a car, it would have been 'cutting them off' and you would have been at fault, even if they had their turn signal on and were travelling the same speed as the bicyclist and occupying the same space as the bicyclist.

The cyclist could have signaled an orchestral conductor's time signature for all it matters. Signalling is to show intention, NOT to yield right of way. Signalling does not yield any right of way, in any situation, ever. It serves solely as a warning to you to not do anything stupid like try to overtake someone, especially if you can't do it safely. You still have to yield to his right of way because he's occupying the lane before you got there, simple as that. You can't overtake another vehicle because you think that vehicle will not be in your way once you are overtaking them, and if you do, you do it at your own peril and you're breaking the law.

Don't be mad that he was unclear. People are going to be unclear forever and always. Be mad that you didn't obey the traffic code and you caused a hazardous situation, and then be thankful that you didn't actually collide with the cyclist, because that could have ended very badly for everyone involved. It's almost always the fault of the operator that is overtaking or changing lanes or turning. I don't understand how people still have operator's licenses when they time and time again show that they can't drive.

Title 14, Chapter 89, Section 2.

Section 2. Except as herein otherwise provided, the driver of a vehicle passing another vehicle traveling in the same direction shall drive a safe distance to the left of such other vehicle and shall not return to the right until safely clear of the overtaken vehicle; and, if the way is of sufficient width for the two vehicles to pass, the driver of the leading one shall not unnecessarily obstruct the other. If it is not possible to overtake a bicycle or other vehicle at a safe distance in the same lane, the overtaking vehicle shall use all or part of an adjacent lane if it is safe to do so or wait for a safe opportunity to overtake. Except when overtaking and passing on the right is permitted, the driver of an overtaken vehicle shall give way to the right in favor of the overtaking vehicle on visible signal and shall not increase the speed of his vehicle until completely passed by the overtaking vehicle.

The driver of a vehicle may, if the roadway is free from obstruction and of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles, overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle when the vehicle overtaken is (a) making or about to make a left turn, (b) upon a one-way street, or (c) upon any roadway on which traffic is restricted to one direction of movement.

That's section 2. Like, almost the most important thing.

[vqdriver]

Signalling is to show intention, NOT to yield right of way.

i'd agree with this.
but dude. you've got to tone it down.

[ultraman6970]

My personal view of the op rant is that hand signals are just useless, even thought the rider is doing them right or not, because many riders don't know how to ride in the streets, you can know all the hand signals of the world but if the skills and common sense arent there sure the guy will be ran over anyways, so i kind'a understand the op, frustrating and as a rider is more frustrating, my advice as a conscious driver? Always let the cyclist to pass 1st because you never know what the moron (expression ok?) will do.

I see that every single day here... typical errors... there is a line to turn right for example and a line to continue straight, the rider wants to go straight and the Einstein put the bike in the turn right line and in the corner wait for the cars to figure it out that he wants to go straight, duh!. Is that hard to just move the bike to the correct line before screw up? So what the OP says doesn't surprise me at all, i live in an avenue where I see every month group rides and the guys doing dumb crap all over the place, don't want to be mean but no wonder some riders are hit sometimes you know.

As a rider I acknowledge the fact that there are some dumb ass drivers that just want to harm people, but in other cases like this as a rider I acknowledge that you have really dumb ass people riding a bike too.

[cc700]

Sorry if I offended you.
:cool:

[cc700]

I see that every single day here... typical errors... there is a line to turn right for example and a line to continue straight, the rider wants to go straight and the Einstein put the bike in the turn right line and in the corner wait for the cars to figure it out that he wants to go straight, duh!. Is that hard to just move the bike to the correct line before screw up? So what the OP says doesn't surprise me at all, i live in an avenue where I see every month group rides and the guys doing dumb crap all over the place, don't want to be mean but no wonder some riders are hit sometimes you know.

The op's original rant was to use turn signals correctly, not whatever ones you make up. It was not that they are useless, it's that they are harmful if used improperly. I agree with that actually.

However, much like you feel about "dumb ass" (it's actually one hyphenated word, if I can pull a grammar-nazi move right quick) "moron" cyclists doing illegal stuff and getting hit, the improper signalling is not as much of a mistake as the unsafe lane changing or overtaking that actually causes such accidents.

I've been left hooked before once and right hooked before once, and both times it's because the drivers didn't realize I was occupying the lane of travel. It's their fault, but the reason they didn't see was because other vehicles were either parked illegally, obscuring my lane(right hook on a poorly designed bike path) or turning left in front of me unsafely(left hook, two cars gunned it in front of me leaving the third zero time to see that I was in the intersection).

It's like a much different and much less dangerous and damaging version of blaming a rape victim for wearing sexually attractive clothing. It's the rapists' fault, not the mini-skirt.


Most cyclists don't 'get hit,' Bad Drivers Hit Cyclists.



How's that for toning it down?:)

[ultraman6970]

All cool man, sorry if you took it personal if you did ok?... Thats why I said that I acknowledge drivers that screw up, but you have consider the possibility of bad riders, because there are a lot of them moving around... together with unconsidered drivers you know. Many accidents could be avoided if the driver could have more respect for the guy riding an ultra light vehicle and consider that the guy riding it is clueless... always say... "leave the bike guy to pass or leave the motorcycle guy to pass because if something happen even if not your fault as a driver the most damage will be get by the lighter vehicle user".

As an example, i live in front of a school, drivers not even want to stop when a kid wants to cross the street...people just suck sometimes, is so easy to be more considerated in this case with kids pedestrians, you know.

[cc700]

for sure. no sympathy for people that wantonly disregard the rules or get hit while running a red, if they're not a small child.

I'm actually not angry(at all), just passionate about how this kind of thing gets conceptualized and discussed.

[oldpotatoe]

I darn near hit a cyclist today because the moron doesn't know his hand signals.

An older cyclist (so he should know his hand signals from Driver'sEd) was riding along the shoulder of a 40 mph road.

Just as I am about to pass him he raises his left arm with his upper arm horizontal and his forearm pointing skyward with index finger extended. I take thus to mean that he is about to turn right at the upcoming intersecting road on the right ( in MA that signal means "right turn"), a road I plan to turn into as well. I get to the intersection with enough clearance to make my turn without even a chance if "right hooking" this guy as he will be slowing and turning.

EXCEPT HE DOESN'T !!!!

If I had not double checked to see where he really was before turning I would gave had this guy tide into the side of my car.

On top of this, a car that was about to come out of the side street, seeing me slow down with a signal on, started up and barely missed clocking thus guy as he crossed in front of him.

So we drivers are now both left wondering what exactly he was trying to tell the surrounding traffic.

I guess the point is we all hopefully use either legal or obvious hand signals and not just assume because we made something up that drivers will know what we mean.

Rant over.

BK

Including the middle finger up as 'some' on bicycles run the red light to all those in cars, waiting at the red light.

[charliedid]

When making a turn I always just "point" my intention to the other vehicles around me. I feel that the "driving school" signal for a right hand turn can be misinterpreted as you waving hello to someone.

I have been riding for over 30 years and I find that this is the best way to communicate while on the road.

This ^

[William]

http://nymblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/hand-signals1.gif


Just sayin':)






William

[zap]

Take a toy pistol out of a back pocket and point in the direction you want to go.

That should :banana:wake up:banana: a few motorists.

[ColonelJLloyd]

The 90 degree arm signal to turn right was invented, as mentioned before the electric turn signals.
A guy driving a car (obviously sitting on the left) is unable to point in the direction that he is turning because others would not really be able to see him pointing right.

Nowadays, if you're on a bike, nothing is stopping you from pointing in the direction that you're turning. This was just the way this was explained to me.

I use this on my bike and it works well in my experience. There is still a valid reason for signaling with only your left arm; braking. All of my bikes are setup with the right lever controlling the front brake. I can steer and brake with my right and signal with my left. Just because the signals (posted by William above) are old doesn't mean they shouldn't be used.

[Seramount]

well, there's a lot in the 'delivery' of the signal...

one guy I ride with uses the 'old school' right turn signal, but he keeps his elbow near his hip, points upward with the index finger, and then wags it like you would when scolding someone.

it's completely vague and unclear...

have suggested repeatedly to just point, but he says it's 'correct' to do it his way.

[Hindmost]

Point left turn left/point right turn right is generally understood by cyclists. I use the simple forearm point not the semaphore, straight arm. Trouble is point left to auto racing enthusiasts means, "pass me here."

[GregL]

Even the New York State DMV seems to have evolved:

http://www.dmv.ny.gov/dmanual/chapter11-manual.htm#bic-oth

[Charles M]

Evolution will solve this Bruce...