Ti vs Ti and the old N+1 Rule

[laupsi]

Another thread on this forum a few days ago got me thinking about the purchase of an additional Ti Frame. A Ti Frame designed for racing.

The Serotta Pronto is very new and therefore not much has been said/written about its performance characteristics. On the other hand I have heard/read great things about the Moots RSL and I like where it is priced relatively speaking.

I have been a long time supporter and fan of Serotta frames and therefore have a loyalty sort of speak for Serotta's products. Would love some input on either frame or any other Ti frame that would scratch my new itch.

[JasonF]

I don't think you can go wrong with either a Serotta or a Moots and it looks like really good things are going on at Serotta.

Since you live in the Mid-Atlantic, also consider a trip up to Spectrum and have Tom Kellogg fit & design a ti bike with the exact characteristics you're looking for. IMHO, it's a great value proposition and Tom races so he can speak the language.

[zennmotion]

I don't think you can go wrong with either a Serotta or a Moots and it looks like really good things are going on at Serotta.

Since you live in the Mid-Atlantic, also consider a trip up to Spectrum and have Tom Kellogg fit & design a ti bike with the exact characteristics you're looking for. IMHO, it's a great value proposition and Tom races so he can speak the language.

This^ Tom can design and build just about anything, but Ti+race bike is Spectrum at it's very very best. The barn is less than 2 hours from Charm City, it would be a foolish wasted opportunity not to go visit and at least hear what he has to say. Truly world class.

[Ahneida Ride]

Moots, Bedford, Serotta, Erikson, Steve Potts, Indy Fab, Firefly ...
oh yea and Tom Kellogg of Spectrum

Serotta, Bedford and Firefly are all Phorum Sponsors.
worth a look ...

Firefly has perhaps the nicest site on the web.
Just look at the picts.

[soulspinner]

This^ Tom can design and build just about anything, but Ti+race bike is Spectrum at it's very very best. The barn is less than 2 hours from Charm City, it would be a foolish wasted opportunity not to go visit and at least hear what he has to say. Truly world class.


Tom rocks........

[beeatnik]

http://www.pelotonmagazine-digital.com/pelotonmagazine/201110?pg=130#pg130

[RedRider]

I've ridden the Pronto and give it 2 thumbs up. A few are currently being raced, with success, by top ranked amateurs. Call me if you have specific questions. The Moots is a great bike too but less aggressive. There are others that also are in that category such a K Bedford Customs, Firefly, Seven so you do have a lot of choices... have fun!

[beeatnik]

The Moots RSL is less aggressive? Seriously? Could you elaborate...

[avalonracing]

YES!
Another guy wants a Ti race bike! Bit by bit, we Ti guys will take back ground!

[RedRider]

The Moots RSL is less aggressive? Seriously? Could you elaborate...

The Moots RSL is a great bike but the Pronto is stiffer and handles like a race bike.

[Bob Ross]

Just look at the picts.


Huh... I can sort of see a bicycle there...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Serpent_stone.JPG/220px-Serpent_stone.JPG

[John H.]

Yer talking crazy stuff- Moots RSL is a full on race bike.
Geometry is quite aggressive on an RSL.
In fact an RSL was more aggressive than I wanted when I was shopping for a ti frame.
As others have mentioned, there are many good ti builders. Find one that tickles your fancy and you can get the bike of your dreams.
There is no right or wrong answer here.



The Moots RSL is a great bike but the Pronto is stiffer and handles like a race bike.

[Joachim]

The Moots RSL is a great bike but the Pronto is stiffer and handles like a race bike.

Do you sell both Moots and Serotta?

[John H.]

I agree with this- there are many great custom ti builders out there.
Pick one you like and go with it.
Serotta if you have a good fitter/shop that deal Serotta.
IF- if you are close enough.
Tom Kellogg for sure.
My experience is with Kent Eriksen.
I know what I want in terms of geometry- he is a master of figuring out what diameter and wall thickness tubes to use to give desired stiffness, handling and weight characteristics.
I wanted a light frame but solid handling. He used a 44mm headtube for a tapered fork, 1.5 in toptube, 1.675 downtube and 1" chainstays.
Bike rides like a dream- as stiff as I needed. Weighed about 3 lb. even.
He could have made a lighter frame but it would not be a stiff or handle as solid as this one.

I don't think you can go wrong with either a Serotta or a Moots and it looks like really good things are going on at Serotta.

Since you live in the Mid-Atlantic, also consider a trip up to Spectrum and have Tom Kellogg fit & design a ti bike with the exact characteristics you're looking for. IMHO, it's a great value proposition and Tom races so he can speak the language.

[beeatnik]

The Moots RSL is a great bike but the Pronto is stiffer and handles like a race bike.

Are you thinking of the Vamoots CR?

The RSL is stiffer than the Pronto at the BB (PF30 as well). It has a larger seat tube, 6-4 seat stays and a stiffer fork. The geo is also more "aggressive." It's a crit racer's bike.

RSL in a 55
Head tube: 13.5
Effective TT: 55.5
Chain Stay Length: 40.7
Head and Seat Tube Angles: 73.5

Pronto in a 55
Head tube: 13.7
Effective TT: 55.4
Chain Stay Length: 40.8
Head and Seat Tube Angles: 73.0

Gaulzetti Corsa 54 (most aggressive of all, right?)
Head tube: 13.4
TT: 54.5
Seat Tube Angle: 74

And as a baseline, CAAD10s also have 40.8 chain stay lengths and 73.5 ST angles in comparable sizes (54, 56).

The RSL can be ordered with an oversized HT and has more TT slope so theoretically a stiffer front triangle. It's also lighter than the Pronto. For an off the peg Ti race bike, there's nothing better on the market.

[John H.]

Well put.
But for what either of them costs you could get a custom ti frameset done any way you want?

Are you thinking of the Vamoots CR?

The RSL is stiffer than the Pronto at the BB (PF30 as well). It has a larger seat tube, 6-4 seat stays and a stiffer fork. The geo is also more "aggressive." It's a crit racer's bike.

RSL in a 55
Head tube: 13.5
Effective TT: 55.5
Chain Stay Length: 40.7
Head and Seat Tube Angles: 73.5

Pronto in a 55
Head tube: 13.7
Effective TT: 55.4
Chain Stay Length: 40.8
Head and Seat Tube Angles: 73.0

The RSL can be ordered with an oversized HT and has more TT slope so theoretically a stiffer front triangle. It's also lighter than the Pronto. For an off the peg Ti race bike, there's nothing better on the market.

[beeatnik]

^True.

But if you fit a stock bike, RSL is the way to go. Higher resale, prettier bike.

[John H.]

I will give you the higher resale (on the rsl)- but prettier bike? Almost any stock bike will sell for a higher percentage of what one paid for it than a custom.
If resale is important- buy a Specialized and flip it every year.
Custom bikes are pretty much a losing proposition in terms of recouping what you paid. But they are for riding, not investing.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.


^True.

But if you fit a stock bike, RSL is the way to go. Higher resale, prettier bike.

[happycampyer]

Regarding relative stiffness, without riding the two bikes back-to-back, it's impossible to say which one is stiffer. They both have an oversized, PF BB30 bottom bracket, and oversized tubes in the main triangle and chainstays. My guess is that they are very similar in terms of stiffness, and both of them are about as stiff as you are going to find in a ti bike, especially for the weight. One thing to note about front end stiffness is that the RSL now comes in two versions, the original version with a fork with a standard 1-18" steerer, and an oversized version with tapered a 1-1/8" to 1-1/2" fork. I've never had an issue with the stiffness of a fork with a standard steerer and have ridden bikes with oversized headtubes and tapered forks and found them uncomfortably harsh, but I know others who are heavier or ride more aggressively prefer the added stiffness of a tapered fork. The Pronto splits the difference, with a newly designed fork that tapers from 1-1/8" to 1-1/4". I'd be very curious to see how the Pronto rides compared to my RSL (which has a standard steerer).

Regarding relative aggressiveness of geometry/handling, as beatnik's post shows, the geometry in a medium sized frame is very similar for both (I haven't compared other sizes but I suspect they are similar), so it's not as if the handling is going to be radically different. True, the head and seat tube angles of the RSL are slightly steeper than the Pronto's, but i think the resulting trail is probably close between the two because of the different fork offsets the two companies use. In any case, there are plenty of Tour-level carbon wünderbikes with similar geometries to either of these two frames.

Aesthetically, I wasn't a fan of the 10* slope of the top tube, so I had my RSL built with less slope. I find the proportions of the Pronto to be very balanced and pleasing (the slope of the toptube isn't super aggressive, and the headtube looks just right in proportion to the other tubes, etc.). Of course, aesthetics are a very personal thing.

One advantage of the RSL and the Pronto over custom is that they can be test-ridden. I realize that's probably dependent on where one lives—I happen to be on Matt A's route with the Moots van full of bikes that fit me, and am close to Signature Cycles, which gets frequent visits from folks from the Serotta factory. Even haven test ridden the RSL before I bought one, to be honest, if I didn't have multiple bikes to ride, I probably would have sold it by now because it's truly stiffer than I really need.

[christian]

The RSL rides like a 17 lbs Merckx MX Leader. So it's got that going for it.

The Pronto probably rides almost identically and looks like a million bucks.

Tough problem to have.

[RedRider]

I would chose the Pronto over the Moots for racing. Moots makes a great bike but, in my opinion, the Pronto has a better transfer of power with a very stiff front end. That's the way it worked for me. Others might have another opinion.
You can't compare bikes from numbers. You need to ride them.
*Disclaimer. Yes I am a Serotta dealer. I have sold Moots at another shop and would certainly consider becoming a dealer if I wanted to change the lineup.

Are you thinking of the Vamoots CR?

The RSL is stiffer than the Pronto at the BB (PF30 as well). It has a larger seat tube, 6-4 seat stays and a stiffer fork. The geo is also more "aggressive." It's a crit racer's bike.

RSL in a 55
Head tube: 13.5
Effective TT: 55.5
Chain Stay Length: 40.7
Head and Seat Tube Angles: 73.5

Pronto in a 55
Head tube: 13.7
Effective TT: 55.4
Chain Stay Length: 40.8
Head and Seat Tube Angles: 73.0

Gaulzetti Corsa 54 (most aggressive of all, right?)
Head tube: 13.4
TT: 54.5
Seat Tube Angle: 74

And as a baseline, CAAD10s also have 40.8 chain stay lengths and 73.5 ST angles in comparable sizes (54, 56).

The RSL can be ordered with an oversized HT and has more TT slope so theoretically a stiffer front triangle. It's also lighter than the Pronto. For an off the peg Ti race bike, there's nothing better on the market.

[gearguywb]

I have a hard time believing the Serotta is stiffer than the RSL. Remember to compare like bikes....wheels, tires, cranks, etc.

I have a RSL road and cross. Both great race bikes. I also have a Strong Ti bike with couplers that should be here this week. Built to the RSL geometry. Should be fun to compare them.

[djg]

Tom rocks........

Indeed he does. I don't know the price comparisons, but it's about 2 hours from Balmer and the frame price includes a very extensive fit assessment from one of the best fitters anywhere, with the info feeding into frame design by a Ti frame designer who is second to none (and happens to be the same guy as the fitter), and when all's said and done the same guy -- who happens to be a truly superb painter -- will finish it. Plus he's just a great guy to deal with.

[beeatnik]

I would chose the Pronto over the Moots for racing. Moots makes a great bike but, in my opinion, the Pronto has a better transfer of power with a very stiff front end. That's the way it worked for me. Others might have another opinion.
You can't compare bikes from numbers. You need to ride them.
*Disclaimer. Yes I am a Serotta dealer. I have sold Moots at another shop and would certainly consider becoming a dealer if I wanted to change the lineup.

You suggested the RSL was not a race bike. The numbers and those who have ridden one do not support your conclusion. Now, whether you would prefer to race a Pronto that's another conversation.

[jr59]

Indeed he does. I don't know the price comparisons, but it's about 2 hours from Balmer and the frame price includes a very extensive fit assessment from one of the best fitters anywhere, with the info feeding into frame design by a Ti frame designer who is second to none (and happens to be the same guy as the fitter), and when all's said and done the same guy -- who happens to be a truly superb painter -- will finish it. Plus he's just a great guy to deal with.

I could not have said it any better. I would go as far as to say that you will not find a better person to deal with. Maybe as good, but NONE better. If you are close enough, you need to make the trip. Just to see what he says. 100% GREAT guy!

[Louis]

Huh... I can sort of see a bicycle there...


No, no, he was really thinking of the Gaels.

(I noticed the typo and almost posted the same type of thing.)

[RedRider]

You suggested the RSL was not a race bike. The numbers and those who have ridden do not support your conclusion. Now, whether you would prefer to race a Pronto that's another conversation.

There is no question the RSL is a race bike but I preferred the Pronto.

[avalonracing]

I could not have said it any better. I would go as far as to say that you will not find a better person to deal with. Maybe as good, but NONE better. If you are close enough, you need to make the trip. Just to see what he says. 100% GREAT guy!

Tom Kellogg designed my Merlin Works CR (one of the five Ti road bikes that I have owned) and it rocks. When I last checked he designs the Ti bike and then hands it off to Seven to have it built. That's a pretty nice combo.

The Merlin I have is a great race bike. It has a huge downtube for a 57.5TT bike and 1" s-bend chainstays. It is race stiff but somehow more smooth than the Legend Ti (surprising) or Litespeed Classic (not surprising) that I have owned.

TK is also a longtime racer so he knows how to design a race bike. Of course any of the names that we drop here would make a great Ti race bike it is just that Spectrum is in our neck of the woods.

[laupsi]

some great feedback, I do appreciate all these comments.

I will end up w/a size 55 frame, pretty middle of the road and through this I don't want to go custom. have two custom bikes already, can appreciate the subtle differences, (subtle because my body size/weight is very standard) and don't want to spend additional $$$ for the process. I want this to be a select and go type of transaction.

That said it will be difficult for me test ride both bikes although my LBS does sell both brands, I doubt they have or can get both models in my size at the shop. I will push for this however.

Confession, I am drawn to the Pronto because of its styling and that red paint scheme on the site is really calling my name. Also, Serotta never fails to over impress me on their quality and performance. Oh and I do believe in Ti. Not that Ti is "better" than the carbon wonderbikes sold today, it's simply different in a way I appreciate and like more. :)

[buddybikes]

If it fits then buy it, and ride it rather than analysis paralysis. Yes visual look affects our buying decision.

[djg]

Tom Kellogg designed my Merlin Works CR (one of the five Ti road bikes that I have owned) and it rocks. When I last checked he designs the Ti bike and then hands it off to Seven to have it built. That's a pretty nice combo.

The Merlin I have is a great race bike. It has a huge downtube for a 57.5TT bike and 1" s-bend chainstays. It is race stiff but somehow more smooth than the Legend Ti (surprising) or Litespeed Classic (not surprising) that I have owned.

TK is also a longtime racer so he knows how to design a race bike. Of course any of the names that we drop here would make a great Ti race bike it is just that Spectrum is in our neck of the woods.

Yes, at least with mine -- last year, he designs the bike (specs every tube, geo, braze-on), 7 gets the pipes as spec'd, cuts & mitres, and welds them, and then Tom checks everything and does the finish work. Apologies if I've missed a detail and maybe Tom can jump in and correct me. (And with the steel frames, the whole thing is done in-house, or in-barn, with Jeff Duser doing the brazing).

As for race pedigree, I think Tom built Greg Lemond's ti bikes and he's built bikes for a bunch of folks that rode them to Worlds track podiums.

The guy worked injured to get me a cross frame in time for pre-season training last year (only to have my own minor injury trash my season). He's a prince. Which is not to say that others are not also great to deal with, and great at their craft. And sorry to gush, but two thumbs up for TK.