Conversation about titanium versus carbon

[dekindy]

I am slightly acquainted with one of the racers that attends the training ride that I frequent. On a day when the racer types were not riding fast, I found myself riding alongside him and asked some questions.

Is the carbon bike, a Specialized, that you are riding the bike that replaced your Moots Vamoots?
Answer: yes. He has had it for a few seasons.

How do you like it; do you ever wish that you had kept your titanium frame? Answer: Actually, I wish that I had kept the Moots. Don't get me wrong, the Specialized carbon is a very nice bike and I like it a lot, but there was something about the Moots that is hard to define but would like it back.

Did the Moots fit better?
Answer: No, just something about that felt better.

I did not think to ask him about wheels, etc. But since he is a discerning rider feel confident he was accurate in his assessment.

What is the point? Have heard from multiple sources now that steel and titanium frames are liked by the younger generation. Mentioned to him that Serotta was targeting racers types with a new titanium bike. Don't know how he would ever find out about it or if he was interested enough to seek out information. Wondering how Serotta is going to access this market?

[verticaldoug]

Serotta is working with a couple of racers in the Northeast and having them ride the bikes.

Tom Officer is racing both a pronto and a meivici as a 50+ (60+) Master. And I've seen Zach Koop on a baby blue Pronto in White Plains Downtown Crit. I think Zach is racing as a Cat 1.

It is back to grass roots and both riders are good guys. Hopefully, the word of mouth and results will slowly spread the brand. Next step, maybe some big boned old guy can make an effort in CX.

[eddief]

Have owned 30 bikes in 10 years. As of of month ago had been convinced my 2009 Roubaix Pro was the best of the lot; both custom and off the shelf. At least 3 other carbon and many other steels included in the entire bunch.

Then I got my custom Asian ti a month ago. Have been riding it on nearly every ride (300 miles) since I built it up. Granted new bike-itis, but also a certain appreciation for how the ti rides. Yesterday I got on the Roubaix to see what my brain thought about the comparo with the ti. My brain says they are both great. Still the Roubaix seems as if its lightness and its carbon make for more direct input and just a tighter snap in the ride. On the other hand, the ti has a great springy road feel and the application of power just feels different. Not better, not worse, just different.

If you asked me to choose only one bike to keep, as of today I would choose the ti. This is after 2 years of thinking nothing could quite match the pleasure I had enjoyed riding the Roubaix. Call me fickle...all my friends do.

[HugoBear]

It's funny. I have the following 3 bikes.
Pegoretti Duende bought from Bluesea.
2008 Cervelo R3
Strong Ti

I really like all 3. What I have noticed is the material does not make much difference to me. The small things are what matters a lot to me lately. For example, the Strong could not fit me better but the old Dura Ace 7800 bottom bracket is creaking, so it irritates me. The Pegoretti is really cool and it would probably be my pick if I could only have one. The current problem is I am running a too aggressive back cassette to really do tough hills, so that is limiting. The Cervelo is the bike I use for the indoor trainer, but it was my dream bike in 2008. I like bikes that produce little noise. The pegoretti is that "buttery smooth" ride in terms of feel and sound. The Cervelo makes a racket. I think with the same components and equally tuned, there is little difference for most riders in terms of feel and performance once you get to the higher end of bikes. I am finding that the appeal of CF is diminishing for me slightly but not a ton. No really great reason why.

[KidWok]

Have heard from multiple sources now that steel and titanium frames are liked by the younger generation.

Wait...what? Could this really be true?

Tai

[Likes2ridefar]

It's funny. I have the following 3 bikes.
Pegoretti Duende bought from Bluesea.
2008 Cervelo R3
Strong Ti

I really like all 3. What I have noticed is the material does not make much difference to me. The small things are what matters a lot to me lately. For example, the Strong could not fit me better but the old Dura Ace 7800 bottom bracket is creaking, so it irritates me. The Pegoretti is really cool and it would probably be my pick if I could only have one. The current problem is I am running a too aggressive back cassette to really do tough hills, so that is limiting. The Cervelo is the bike I use for the indoor trainer, but it was my dream bike in 2008. I like bikes that produce little noise. The pegoretti is that "buttery smooth" ride in terms of feel and sound. The Cervelo makes a racket. I think with the same components and equally tuned, there is little difference for most riders in terms of feel and performance once you get to the higher end of bikes. I am finding that the appeal of CF is diminishing for me slightly but not a ton. No really great reason why.

My cervelo R5, which I think is fairly similar to your R3, is totally silent.

I love that bike. My favorite so far.

[slidey]

Every one has their own set of preferences.

I, for instance, don't find my MXL tracking well enough...maybe its a combination of the bike being slightly bigger for me along with its rather rubbish vibration dampening ability. Then there was this time when I owned a Lemond Victoire (3/2.5 Ti), what a smooth ride but what a blasted limp noodle!

My Ridley Excalibur on the other hand, boy oh boy, makes riding every mile an absolute delight...first serious road-bike I bought, and I can't bring myself to seriously consider selling it.

[John H.]

I have owned ti bikes in the 90's but I have been on high end carbon bikes for at least the last 8 years.
I recently had a nice custom ti frame made. There were multiple things that drove me back to ti.
1.) Carbon frames are getting so stiff these days. Every year it is lighter and more stiff. Got to point where I thought modern carbon bikes were to stiff and too chattery.
2.) This noise also makes the chain bounce around and the entire bike make noise.
3.) Modern carbon is going almost exclusively to pressfit bbs, internal cables and internal headsets. None of these work as well as threaded bb, pressfit headsets, and external cables.
4.) Ti builders are doing some really cool stuff with ti- more oversize tubesets, thinking out of the box a bit more.
Anyway, I got a custom Eriksen. It is 1 lb heavier than the carbon bike that it replaced. It rides great and it is quiet.

[beeatnik]

Ti is the girl you marry after dating what the kids call a "dime." Your "keeper" does not turn every head (only those of the like-minded, ie, guys with good taste). She doesn't have a perfect body. She's not the most adventurous (she's aware of boundaries). She's not the Harvard PhD (she's smarter than you, tho). Most importantly, you would never limit her with a number. She's not a 10; she's imperfectly right for you.

[buddybikes]

re: Ti is the girl you marry after dating what the kids call a "dime." Your "keeper" does not turn every head (only those of the like-minded, ie, guys with good taste). She doesn't have a perfect body. She's not the most adventurous (she's aware of boundaries). She's not the Harvard PhD (she's smarter than you, tho). Most importantly, you would never limit her with a number. She's not a 10; she's imperfectly right for you.

So what's a carbon-ti? Want to figure out who I am marrying/dating for my new firefly

[beeatnik]

re: Ti is the girl you marry after dating what the kids call a "dime." Your "keeper" does not turn every head (only those of the like-minded, ie, guys with good taste). She doesn't have a perfect body. She's not the most adventurous (she's aware of boundaries). She's not the Harvard PhD (she's smarter than you, tho). Most importantly, you would never limit her with a number. She's not a 10; she's imperfectly right for you.

So what's a carbon-ti? Want to figure out who I am marrying/dating for my new firefly

The wife on date night, wearing 5 inch heels. :eek:

[earlfoss]

As a racer with a limited budget it would make no sense to buy the Moots Vamoots CR or RSL that haunts my dreams. One crash and well you know....

Lordy they're cool. After my racing days are over I'll look towards riding something that nice.

[KidWok]

I have owned ti bikes in the 90's but I have been on high end carbon bikes for at least the last 8 years.
I recently had a nice custom ti frame made. There were multiple things that drove me back to ti.
1.) Carbon frames are getting so stiff these days. Every year it is lighter and more stiff. Got to point where I thought modern carbon bikes were to stiff and too chattery.
2.) This noise also makes the chain bounce around and the entire bike make noise.
3.) Modern carbon is going almost exclusively to pressfit bbs, internal cables and internal headsets. None of these work as well as threaded bb, pressfit headsets, and external cables.
4.) Ti builders are doing some really cool stuff with ti- more oversize tubesets, thinking out of the box a bit more.
Anyway, I got a custom Eriksen. It is 1 lb heavier than the carbon bike that it replaced. It rides great and it is quiet.

While I agree with most of the above, the arguments made are more about design than material. CF frames can be made to be very smooth and steel frame can be made to be very rigid. All bikes will make noise if there is chain slap or cable pinging. Design and proper assembly should address those issues. All those proprietary standards aren't limited to CF. Merlin and Klein both had pressed BB bearings fairly early on.

While there are some actual design limits specific to materials (Dave Kirk mentioned a few about ti and chainstays), for the most part you can get anything you want in any material these days. My main beef with CF is "carbon leprosy" where clear coat eventually starts peeling/bubbling/wearing out, but similar issues exist with steel/ti.

Tai

[jr59]

The wife on date night, wearing 5 inch heels. :eek:

Well done....:hello::hello:

[buddybikes]

re:The wife on date night, wearing 5 inch heels.

yum!!!

ps: my wife pulled away from me last Sat.

[beeatnik]

As a racer with a limited budget it would make no sense to buy the Moots Vamoots CR or RSL that haunts my dreams. One crash and well you know....

.

One crash wont even put a scratch on the finish. The bike would need to be hit by a truck to put it out of commission.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8079/8396602646_6f68df6fe8.jpg

[TPetsch]

Love the way my Ti top tube "Sings" when taped by the the rubber brake cable standoffs on rough roads.

[Chris]

As a racer on a budget, ti is the single best investment you could make in a frame. A Desalvo ti frame is $2550 or a whopping $175 more for full custom.

[John H.]

My beefs with carbon are more with what is out there in production carbon frames.
I agree that someone like Parlee could make me a sweet carbon bike with threaded bb, press-in headset, and external cables.

While I agree with most of the above, the arguments made are more about design than material. CF frames can be made to be very smooth and steel frame can be made to be very rigid. All bikes will make noise if there is chain slap or cable pinging. Design and proper assembly should address those issues. All those proprietary standards aren't limited to CF. Merlin and Klein both had pressed BB bearings fairly early on.

While there are some actual design limits specific to materials (Dave Kirk mentioned a few about ti and chainstays), for the most part you can get anything you want in any material these days. My main beef with CF is "carbon leprosy" where clear coat eventually starts peeling/bubbling/wearing out, but similar issues exist with steel/ti.

Tai

[SpokeValley]

Echoing some of the comments, my Legend Ti (that I built in May thanks to a forumite) is just a fantastic machine. It replaced my 2012 Roubaix which was a really fine bike, too.

My problem with the Roubaix was not the performance; I really didn't have any complaints. My feeling was that it didn't have any 'soul'. You know what I mean? It's indescribable...but maybe I'm just more odd than I think.

After I bought the Roubaix and put about 1k miles on it, I decided that I really wanted something more and decided the things were important: another metal frame (I was concerned about damage to the CF from whatever source), preferably Ti (I came off of steel for the Roubaix) even though I'd never ridden one (something new), and an American hand-made frame. A custom isn't in the budget yet.

Simply stated, the Legend is the best bike I've ever owned. It's damned comfortable, moves like a whipped horse when I give it the gas, is great for climbing, likes sustained momentum (it's a weird sensation; the bike likes to get to speed and stay there), and handles like on rails.

I rode a 155 mile charity ride in N. Idaho/NW Montana on Saturday and the bike performed flawlessly and I just felt great at the finish...and I did more than my share of pulling in wind and on hills.

Plus, and I think I picked this phrase up on the forum but I've adopted it, if I ever have a wreck, my bike will probably be alright when I wake up ;)

This bike has soul.

I also see SO many Spech or Trek or Dale or other big brands. There's no real distinction and it's flattering for someone to notice my bike because you know they are more knowledgable than most of the pack.

Oh, yea, on that ride, I found a guy on a '99 Legend Ti and an '06 Ottrott.

[VTCaraco]

... My feeling was that it didn't have any 'soul'. You know what I mean? It's indescribable...but maybe I'm just more odd than I think.

You captured my feelings to a T.
My stable includes a Strong and a Foresta (as well as the steel Serotta mountain bike that my bride bought me as a wedding gift some 20 odd years ago).
I love knowing that they were made by hand. Both are high-end steel, but each has it's own nuances. Absent the really special carbon, I have no real lust.

With all of that said, I think the biggest thing is purpose.
My goal isn't a fast-as-fast-can-be. I like the uniqueness SV speaks of and the more sublime ride that these frames seem to have.
Simply put, it's very personal --- and I don't know that it's fair to say that one is definitively better than another.

[beeatnik]

Bike frames dont have souls (I think I'm paraphrasing R. Sachs here), but some are more satisfying to ride than others. Ti seems to be that, satisfying.

[oldpotatoe]

As a racer with a limited budget it would make no sense to buy the Moots Vamoots CR or RSL that haunts my dreams. One crash and well you know....

Lordy they're cool. After my racing days are over I'll look towards riding something that nice.

If you kill a ti frame in a crash, I'll come visit you in the hospital, if you live.

Methinks you are confusing that $4000+, asian made carbon frame, which, in a crash, may certainly be killed.

If were to race, and I'm not, I would get a cheap frame(probably steel-like a Gunnar) that fit, Veloce components..so when ya do crash, it doesn't cost you a fortune.

These privateers, that roar around racing on a $10,000 bike...and still contest that 24th place sprint..out of 30 guys.

[Likes2ridefar]

If you kill a ti frame in a crash, I'll come visit you in the hospital, if you live.

Methinks you are confusing that $4000+, asian made carbon frame, which, in a crash, may certainly be killed.

If were to race, and I'm not, I would get a cheap frame(probably steel-like a Gunnar) that fit, Veloce components..so when ya do crash, it doesn't cost you a fortune.

These privateers, that roar around racing on a $10,000 bike...and still contest that 24th place sprint..out of 30 guys.

can't say I agree with much of this...but anyways, just an FYI, veloce would be a pretty poor choice considering most wheel services are Shimano/SRAM only.

and when did a gunnar with veloce become cheap? fully built, what, $2000+?

[oldpotatoe]

can't say I agree with much of this...but anyways, just an FYI, veloce would be a pretty poor choice considering most wheel services are Shimano/SRAM only.

and when did a gunnar with veloce become cheap? fully built, what, $2000+?

I was a cat 4, If I flat, I'm quitting anyway...no hands up, give me a wheel so I can contest the Cat 4 race.

$3000...cheap, have you looked at a 'standard' trekspecializedcannondale lately?

Just the frame-
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/race_performance/domane_6_series/2013_domane_6_9_frameset/#

[laupsi]

If were to race, and I'm not, I would get a cheap frame(probably steel-like a Gunnar) that fit, Veloce components..so when ya do crash, it doesn't cost you a fortune.

These privateers, that roar around racing on a $10,000 bike...and still contest that 24th place sprint..out of 30 guys.

opinions, opinions... let those spending the money make their own decisions.

[oldpotatoe]

opinions, opinions... let those spending the money make their own decisions.

Ya know, I do..yep, my 'opinion'.

Do I wince and say something when the gent buys the CR with EPS? Do I care what he does with it? Nope, I just care that it works.

I think some should consider the expense of crashing, if they are a privateer and race. I put a carbon Ridley together with Di2, cross bike, gent raced a rare muddy race, ripped the RD off the frame..killed frame and RD..was done for the season, could only afford one cross bike..

For the cost of the rear der..could have probably bought a used cross bike.

[Likes2ridefar]

I was a cat 4, If I flat, I'm quitting anyway...no hands up, give me a wheel so I can contest the Cat 4 race.

$3000...cheap, have you looked at a 'standard' trekspecializedcannondale lately?

Just the frame-
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/race_performance/domane_6_series/2013_domane_6_9_frameset/#

I was thinking more along the lines of a pedal force carbon frameset in a group buy for 400-500 and a sram rival group for about the same, preferably used, and some decent wheels around 200-300. About $1000 for a pretty sweet bike.

[laupsi]

Ya know, I do..yep, my 'opinion'.

Do I wince and say something when the gent buys the CR with EPS? Do I care what he does with it? Nope, I just care that it works.

I think some should consider the expense of crashing, if they are a privateer and race. I put a carbon Ridley together with Di2, cross bike, gent raced a rare muddy race, ripped the RD off the frame..killed frame and RD..was done for the season, could only afford one cross bike..

For the cost of the rear der..could have probably bought a used cross bike.

understood. my opinion; don't worry so much about crashing. ride/buy the bike that bestows that "feeling" and provides pleasure, in whatever form. if it happens to be inexpensive, double whammy!

[oldpotatoe]

I was thinking more along the lines of a pedal force carbon frameset in a group buy for 400-500 and a sram rival group for about the same, preferably used, and some decent wheels around 200-300. About $1000 for a pretty sweet bike.

I agree with that..yep, you can go 'racing' for not much $. But sometimes the 'what if' gets in the way when the results weren't that great...'what if I had those $2000 carbon wheels?'

Yep, that's the ticket. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Team-Champion-System-Carbon-racing-bike-/251307161099?pt=US_Bicycles_Frames&hash=item3a8312f60b

[Likes2ridefar]

I agree with that..yep, you can go 'racing' for not much $. But sometimes the 'what if' gets in the way when the results weren't that great...'what if I had those $2000 carbon wheels?'

Yep, that's the ticket. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Team-Champion-System-Carbon-racing-bike-/251307161099?pt=US_Bicycles_Frames&hash=item3a8312f60b

sounds like a personal problem, guess those guys are good for business. it's all about the engine.

[oldpotatoe]

sounds like a personal problem, guess those guys are good for business. it's all about the engine.

I hear ya brother.

[aatores]

I've owned two Ti frames and three or four carbon -- it seems I hold on to the Ti frames much longer than the carbon ones. I'm not sure if it's a mental thing about durability -- as if I sub-consciously feel it's time to move on from a carbon frame much sooner that Ti because it has run its course or maybe it's a resale value thing?

[bargainguy]

Not a racer, but here's my two cents worth.

A few years ago, I bought matching Madone 5.2's for me and the missus. Thought at the time, well, state of the art, right?

It was only after a few weeks that I discovered I was riding a hollow plastic log. That's the only way I can describe it. Light? Sure. Stiff? You betcha. Satisfying to ride? Nope. I felt disconnected from the road.

Sold mine (missus still has hers and loves it), got an indy fab crown jewel in steel. Then another crown jewel steel. Then finally, a crown jewel ti. I still have all three. Any of them rides better than the Madone, but I'd pick the ti as my favorite.

[Likes2ridefar]

Not a racer, but here's my two cents worth.

A few years ago, I bought matching Madone 5.2's for me and the missus. Thought at the time, well, state of the art, right?

It was only after a few weeks that I discovered I was riding a hollow plastic log. That's the only way I can describe it. Light? Sure. Stiff? You betcha. Satisfying to ride? Nope. I felt disconnected from the road.

Sold mine (missus still has hers and loves it), got an indy fab crown jewel in steel. Then another crown jewel steel. Then finally, a crown jewel ti. I still have all three. Any of them rides better than the Madone, but I'd pick the ti as my favorite.

fortunately not all carbon frames ride like that. I'd take my cervelo r5 any day over the IF...and yes I owned a crown jewel steel just a few years ago.

[R2D2]

I love the indestructible nature of Ti. Rain or shine you don't have to pamper it.

But when the road goes way up I like my BMC SLC01 with carbon rims and tubulars.

[nbl78s]

Ti is the girl you marry after dating what the kids call a "dime." Your "keeper" does not turn every head (only those of the like-minded, ie, guys with good taste). She doesn't have a perfect body. She's not the most adventurous (she's aware of boundaries). She's not the Harvard PhD (she's smarter than you, tho). Most importantly, you would never limit her with a number. She's not a 10; she's imperfectly right for you.

Very well said! Love it... I have gone back to Ti frames for road and mtn. Although I enjoyed the carbon ride and thought I was on the latest and greatest, when I blew the dust off my old Dean I realized the ride quality I had left behind.

[Pelican]

It's great to see the resurgence of titanium as a material of choice in high-end rides. I've had my Ibis Ti Road for over a decade and it still is a pleasure to take out. Having said that, I do miss a 16lb carbon rocket that was my Roubaix Pro, and am eagerly awaiting my S-Works Tarmac this week.

If I can afford it (the garage space), I'd like to keep this Ibis forever and hand it down to one of my kids.

-Hong

[irideslow8401]

One crash wont even put a scratch on the finish. The bike would need to be hit by a truck to put it out of commission.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8079/8396602646_6f68df6fe8.jpg

i'd let the truck hit me first if this babe is mine. :) Been lurking after for while but not able to afford over $2k frame

[benb]

I think smaller things besides the frame material can have way more impact on how you remember your bike..

I replaced my 2007 Serotta Concours with a BH G5 in 2011.. the fit difference (the serotta got built too big) is by far and away the most important difference. But there are small things about the bikes that really stand out in my memory...

Serotta:
- Loved how precised the BB threads were
- Hated the downtube cable adjusters that never seemed to hold
- Hated the decals falling off
- Loved the Ti durability

BH:
- Hate the integrated seatpost as it has a horrible clamp and I can't replace it since it's all proprietary (had to rebuild the clamp with better hardware to get it to hold the saddle in place!)
- Don't like that it has no microadjuster at all for the front deraiuller
- Don't like that the front deraiuller cable goes through the frame
- Love the stiffer front end (edge/enve designed the tapered fork)
- Love the zero maintenance press in ceramic BB bearings the bike shop threw in..
- Love the painted finish looks perfect after several years as opposed to the disintegrating serotta decals.

It's those little things I remember. I always remember the Giant TCR I raced in 2004 having a flexy front end, and I always remember some of my Treks creaking like crazy all the time back then too...

I raced my Serotta only in hillclimbs, the BH has never raced at all.. both are too expensive to race crits/road races for me, although I might still get to do a hillclimb.