Holy moly-for us 'industry' guys

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2013/07/12/shimano-slash-number-north-american-distributors?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook#.UeANAWTwJTQ

[Louis]

Will this affect you in any way?

[54ny77]

So Shimano serves 3 masters: Wiggle, Chain Reaction, and the rest of the world?

It sounds like they're slashing the other distributors so as to not piss off their UK sales channel, which must be ginormous.

Or am I reading that incorrectly?

[TPetsch]

This is what happens eventually when MAP pricing is ignored & gets out of control.

[mike p]

Shimano will become more expensive.

Mike

Will this affect you in any way?

[gavingould]

potentially a downer for those shops who don't have an account with Shimano America (i also hear that there is a different margin here...) and are not a Giant/Trek/KHS/Raleigh dealer. leaves only QBP and SeattleBikeSupply as distributors, so what does a shop do when both of those guys are out of stock? used to be you'd call Hawley or J&B.

does absolutely nothing to stem the tide of consumers buying from Wiggle or PBK based solely on price.

makes it harder for custom builders to get OEM stuff too i imagine, who knows what kind of terms or minimums a Shimano USA account requires...

[christian]

If Shimano America also adjusts wholesale pricing, it could help US IBDs become more competitive with off-shore dealers. That would be welcome, and is likely the intent. We'll see how it plays out.

[gavingould]

i should mention, the MAP pricing issues go way further than Shimano.

a local shop guy (small, very outspoken about industry goings-on) has a lot to say about this stuff.

[David Kirk]

Unlike!

dave

[JAGI410]

Good thing I just picked up a Campagnolo addiction.

[RedRider]

Shimano American has been making changes for the past few years. Shoes could only be purchased direct and they were the only source, with inventory, for their Pro line products.
The speculation is this move will control msrp/map pricing but the problem is that European retail is less than US wholesale. This is a problem that affects me as a dealer and I don't know how changing the distribution channel will solve it.
We'll see how this plays out regarding supply and pricing. Fewer player usually mean less competitive pricing. If you are a dealer with a QBP account it's probably a non-event.

[1centaur]

Christian opened up the right can of worms. What happens to the mark-up that the distributors who were cut used to make? What financial agreements did the distributors who were kept make? Will there be any adjustments to the European model?

If I were running Wiggle I'd not be sauntering off to tea and assuming my business model has not changed.

If what all those dealer commenters thought was going on is actually going on, then SRAM should be able to IPO at a really nice price. More irony for Ancient Spud.

BTW, no manufacturer should use distributors if they can distribute efficiently themselves. Modern logistics/shipping make that ever more possible.

[parris]

I really have to wonder what behind the scene deals went down with this. It would almost be like having to go to Ford or Chevy to buy Goodyear tires because they cut most others loose.

[EricEstlund]

Ugg

This does.me no.favors.

[davidb]

It will be interesting to see what comes of this. The availability and price from Europe is a really issue on Ultegra and above. The removal of pedals from all distributors makes me nervous. However take something away and the void will not remain long. A Campagnolo renaissance. Who knows.

[sfscott]

Somewhere in the UK, Mike at Maestro is laughing.

[Bikerist]

Somewhere in the UK, Mike at Maestro is laughing.

That's for sure.

[djg21]

Shimano American has been making changes for the past few years. Shoes could only be purchased direct and they were the only source, with inventory, for their Pro line products.
The speculation is this move will control msrp/map pricing but the problem is that European retail is less than US wholesale. This is a problem that affects me as a dealer and I don't know how changing the distribution channel will solve it.
We'll see how this plays out regarding supply and pricing. Fewer player usually mean less competitive pricing. If you are a dealer with a QBP account it's probably a non-event.

Reducing the number of distribution channels also theoretically makes it easier to detect and discipline those distributors selling into the gray market, and to enforce geographic limitations. But most gray market product makes its way to North America from Europe for the reasons you point out. I'd be curious to see what Shimano is doing in terms of European distribution.

[rando]

Speed of business will never keep pace with the fickle educated dollar but it will regulate on all fronts. Campy is doing OEM now in case the little guys missed the memo. Wet blanket about this all is when exactly did anything start getting cheaper or less technologically advanced?

The mountain climbing/camping segment of the outdoors industry bested this same problem. Majority of European brands with strong US companies on the other side of the highly sought after equipment distribution barrier. Black Diamond for instance.

[PaulE]

Trek, Giant and Specialized bought Shmano components in real bulk quantities to get the best prices and then back-doored what they didn't need for themselves to the Ribbles, PBKs and Wiggles of the UK, which is how come when you buy Shimano parts from those guys, a lot of time you get your parts in a plastic bag instead of in an OEM box. So will the fox be guarding the henhouse with the new distribution setup?

[oldpotatoe]

Will this affect you in any way?

We get free delivery every Tuesday and Thursday from J/B, they have a warehouse in Denver..need a cogset or 2, some chains? Yep, it will have an effect. They carry a lot of older stuff, 9s Deore Rders, as an example, low end stuff, that QBP doesn't carry.

In addition, lots of Campagnolo and shimano from EAI..Guess we'll be doing more biz with QBP, with better planning, probably have to carry more inventory, which is a potential expense if sales don't correspond to increased inventory.

[oldpotatoe]

Shimano American has been making changes for the past few years. Shoes could only be purchased direct and they were the only source, with inventory, for their Pro line products.
The speculation is this move will control msrp/map pricing but the problem is that European retail is less than US wholesale. This is a problem that affects me as a dealer and I don't know how changing the distribution channel will solve it.
We'll see how this plays out regarding supply and pricing. Fewer player usually mean less competitive pricing. If you are a dealer with a QBP account it's probably a non-event.

I don't see how changing US distribution will help with the deep MO discounters in Southern UK either. I think one of the problems is that some distributors, both here and in Europe, also own retail places. I think it's a bigger problem here, trying to compete with the likes of Wiggle, etc.

Planetcyclery for one and others in the US, some who are REALLY close to a major distributor, who often sell at my wholsesale, come to mind. I donno, maybe some of the US distributors own retail outfits in the UK.

Campagnolo has been making noises abot going direct, no distributors, for a while BUT the place to start with this is the manufacturers, IMHO, to control pricing.

I should also mention, because of the biz model I have, service primarily, we aren't really hurt by all the MO stuff that goes on. Yes, we build bikes that come to us as a frame and box of parts, often from that MO, UK reseller..and we build it, for a fee. We still make $, as labor is the highest margin thing we have in this LBS.

BUT if somebody has an issue(just heard about a SR RDer that is in need of warranty, from Total Cycling in Ireland(?)), gonna see it Monday and with a RD, I think from PlanetCyclery, no warranty at lest thru Campagnolo, NA.

If the group has the wrong FD, will I swap it? no.

[fuzzalow]

The only up-side I can fathom from Shimano USA's move is it makes it easier to police pricing with more direct accountability owing to a fewer number of US distributors. And the smaller number of US distributorships make the franchise more valuable which is incentive to toe the corporate line and follow Shimano USA directives to the letter.

Yet on the face of it, this strategy is myopic in ignoring the ease of global logistics for consumers to access UK & Euro markets. Perhaps those numbers of savvy customers that purchase from the EU are insignificant and also perhaps the other shoe is yet to drop in revising their EU distribution structure. And it would be well received if this were the case by the IBDs. Otherwise it is just squeezing the US IBDs for increased product, cost & margin - which paradoxically incents consumers that had not purchased from the EU to take that leap in shopping abroad. Somebody always pays.

[laupsi]

and another reason to use Campy :)

[shovelhd]

I recently ordered a couple of Di2 cables from my local IBD, a small shop, Trek dealer. The parts are only available direct from Shimano. It took two weeks. Is this going to be the standard now?

It's a tough time to be in the bike business.

[likebikes]

this whole thing is a non-issue.

remember when shimano lowered margins and changed wholesale prices just 2 years ago? http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=83138

nothing changed. same thing here. you'll still be able to buy shimano parts just as before, the sky isn't falling. this won't push more people away or towards campagnolo or sram or microshift.

[fourflys]

and another reason to use Campy :)

or SRAM... :banana:

[oldpotatoe]

I recently ordered a couple of Di2 cables from my local IBD, a small shop, Trek dealer. The parts are only available direct from Shimano. It took two weeks. Is this going to be the standard now?

It's a tough time to be in the bike business.

E tubes are available from QBP..not 2 weeks, not like shimano shoes.

And for the gent in the post above..I have been battling a Boardman for about 4 hours now..and have replaced(warrantied) 3 pair of Zipp rtn to center bar end shifters..2 rear ders..3 cogsets and it still doesn't work worth a damn. I have seen this with the guy's Father's bike, and the soln? Like the gent with red FD-shimano-

Gita has essentially dropped Pinarellos with sram for 2014..too many warranty issues so....

But nothing is going to change for the end user..there will be 'deals' in Europe but I'm sure shimano will try to reduce those as much as possible. The vast majority of shimano comes as OEM anyway, as does sram.

Us bike shops will still buy and sell cogsets, chains, ders...the stuff of service. Just have to plan ahead a little more because the J/B get it tomorrow gig is gone.

AND some distributors will be leaving the market as well. The majority of stuff they sell is shimano, they have thin margins and if no shimano..they are going to either shrink, find something else, or adios.

[fourflys]

E tubes are available from QBP..not 2 weeks, not like shimano shoes.

And for the gent in the post above..I have been battling a Boardman for about 4 hours now..and have replaced(warrantied) 3 pair of Zipp rtn to center bar end shifters..2 rear ders..3 cogsets and it still doesn't work worth a damn. I have seen this with the guy's Father's bike, and the soln? Like the gent with red FD-shimano-

Gita has essentially dropped Pinarellos with sram for 2014..too many warranty issues so....

you know I was just messing with you Peter... :D :fight:

I'm actually thinking about transitioning to Shimano or back to Campy in the future...

[shovelhd]

E tubes are available from QBP..not 2 weeks, not like shimano shoes.

These were not E-tube cables, which are stocked by most distributors like QBP. They were for 7970. Shimano only.

So my question stands for anyone willing to answer it. As Shimano moves towards a limited distributor/IBD direct model, will two weeks to receive parts be the norm? Is their online ordering system capable of next day turnaround? Do they have warehouses in each region of the country to minimize shipping time?

[oldpotatoe]

These were not E-tube cables, which are stocked by most distributors like QBP. They were for 7970. Shimano only.

So my question stands for anyone willing to answer it. As Shimano moves towards a limited distributor/IBD direct model, will two weeks to receive parts be the norm? Is their online ordering system capable of next day turnaround? Do they have warehouses in each region of the country to minimize shipping time?

Well etubes are shimano only also, but the last gen cables for 7970 and yes, QBP has discontinued that already.

If shimano is stepping up as a distributor, as they say they are, I would expect them to have better inventory. BUT 7970...is first gen Di2, and was made obsolete by Ultegra Di2. The E Tube gig is a much better design, altho I found out, kinda fragile. shimano should be blamed for making their 10s DA Di2 obsolete so quickly and completely but that's true of a lot of 7900 and soon, 6700 stuff.

[Kirk Pacenti]

No mention of SBA? ...or did I miss it?

[David Kirk]

No mention of SBA? ...or did I miss it?

I would assume it means they are axed but to be sure I'm calling SBA on Monday.

Dave

[shovelhd]

Well etubes are shimano only also, but the last gen cables for 7970 and yes, QBP has discontinued that already.

If shimano is stepping up as a distributor, as they say they are, I would expect them to have better inventory. BUT 7970...is first gen Di2, and was made obsolete by Ultegra Di2. The E Tube gig is a much better design, altho I found out, kinda fragile. shimano should be blamed for making their 10s DA Di2 obsolete so quickly and completely but that's true of a lot of 7900 and soon, 6700 stuff.

Interesting. Jenson USA and Bicycle Oufitters Indy both carry E-tubes, and they are little more than QBP front ends with a store or two.

I would expect for Shimano to carry 7970 parts at least until the three year warranty period has expired.

I have a stash of cables just in case.

[RedRider]

We worked with 5 distributors that carried Shimano products in addition to Shimano direct. We now have one, QBP, and Shimano direct.
Speedplay and Reynolds eliminated distributors in the last couple of years as well as a few other manufacturers but Shimano, the elephant in the room, could have a big impact.
They say this will take effect Jan 1014 but I doubt any of those axed will commit to any new inventory. Perhaps they'll even "dump" what they have in a 2 finger salute.

[Dude]

I'm interested to see how this plays out.

1. For everyone crying that campy will have a resurgence, this won't move the needle. Shimano and sram literally own the OEM side of the business. Every $400-1000 has either shim or sram on it. Every $1000-2000 bike has Shim/sram on it. A very high majority of $2k+ have either shim or sram on it. Campy might sell an extra, I'm taking a SWAG of 2000 kits at most. Good for campy. Those were sales that shim probably wouldn't have had anyway.

2. Whoever said that the major manufacturers buy in bulk and then back door to the euro distributors, that is just wrong. They would lose pricing/OEM agreements.

3. From Shimano's standpoint, they have made it SO much easier for them to conduct business. Hey, lets trim the fat. Our 10 largest distributors -> who pays their bills on time -> who is the most valuable partner to us -> who doesn't "loophole" cheap kits by bundling it or hiding the cost creating a headache for us?

3a. Even if these deals were "exclusivity" deals where those 6 paid gobs of money to have rights to distribute, it's still easier for shimano.

4. If shimano executes on what I'm assuming is a long term plan, things can be easier for the dealer. Shimano will have better forecasting, better QC and hopefully ramp up their customer service to support it.

5. As long as shimano maintains/grows their OEM marketshare - they need to do a better job - they can feed the rest of their business.

It will be a pain in the ass short term. The bike industry HATES change. Some shops will have to shift things around a little bit. They will have to spend more time in online catalogs trying to find a compatible, non shimano part. The customer may lose out on replacement part pricing (there will be a whole lotta FSA cranks being sold).

The flip side is that Shimano assumes they can dictate ALL the terms when they aren't able to support it. (IE some CEO read a white paper on Apple and decided "hey, lets just do it like them.")

.....and.....scene!

[FlashUNC]

I'm interested to see how this plays out.

1. For everyone crying that campy will have a resurgence, this won't move the needle. Shimano and sram literally own the OEM side of the business. Every $400-1000 has either shim or sram on it. Every $1000-2000 bike has Shim/sram on it. A very high majority of $2k+ have either shim or sram on it. Campy might sell an extra, I'm taking a SWAG of 2000 kits at most. Good for campy. Those were sales that shim probably wouldn't have had anyway.

2. Whoever said that the major manufacturers buy in bulk and then back door to the euro distributors, that is just wrong. They would lose pricing/OEM agreements.

3. From Shimano's standpoint, they have made it SO much easier for them to conduct business. Hey, lets trim the fat. Our 10 largest distributors -> who pays their bills on time -> who is the most valuable partner to us -> who doesn't "loophole" cheap kits by bundling it or hiding the cost creating a headache for us?

3a. Even if these deals were "exclusivity" deals where those 6 paid gobs of money to have rights to distribute, it's still easier for shimano.

4. If shimano executes on what I'm assuming is a long term plan, things can be easier for the dealer. Shimano will have better forecasting, better QC and hopefully ramp up their customer service to support it.

5. As long as shimano maintains/grows their OEM marketshare - they need to do a better job - they can feed the rest of their business.

It will be a pain in the ass short term. The bike industry HATES change. Some shops will have to shift things around a little bit. They will have to spend more time in online catalogs trying to find a compatible, non shimano part. The customer may lose out on replacement part pricing (there will be a whole lotta FSA cranks being sold).

The flip side is that Shimano assumes they can dictate ALL the terms when they aren't able to support it. (IE some CEO read a white paper on Apple and decided "hey, lets just do it like them.")

.....and.....scene!

Have to disagree on #2. Clearly been going on for years.

http://cyclingiq.com/2011/11/11/vertical-limit-10-years-on-the-first-cracks-appear/

[fatallightning]

Curious, I hope this slides margins up, but doubt it. Also noticed qbp had carbon ultegra and carbon DA pedals for the same price.

Interesting they're doing this now, right as Look is moving away from direct and moving to Hawley and QBP for distro.

[Drewmanchew]

Shimano has awful customer service, they make a decent product but the pricing stinks for bike shops, ebay is full of shimano products at wholesale pricing or below. These companies don't care after the product is sold to distros . If they did they would buy the product sold on line and track serial numbers , but they dont. I've spirited conversation with shimano and Look reps they both point the finger the other way, no one wants to accept blame for the product being sold to the lowest bidder. when a customer ask me whats my price and then they say well the internet has it for this... They could care less about possible warranty support, it price that wins. On the other hand I have customers who will pay more to support the shop, and value our service.

[Bantamben]

It's a shame I don't understand why here in America its so expensive to get bike parts where in the uk even whith exchange everything is like 30% less

[oldpotatoe]

I'm interested to see how this plays out.

1. For everyone crying that campy will have a resurgence, this won't move the needle. Shimano and sram literally own the OEM side of the business. Every $400-1000 has either shim or sram on it. Every $1000-2000 bike has Shim/sram on it. A very high majority of $2k+ have either shim or sram on it. Campy might sell an extra, I'm taking a SWAG of 2000 kits at most. Good for campy. Those were sales that shim probably wouldn't have had anyway.

2. Whoever said that the major manufacturers buy in bulk and then back door to the euro distributors, that is just wrong. They would lose pricing/OEM agreements.

3. From Shimano's standpoint, they have made it SO much easier for them to conduct business. Hey, lets trim the fat. Our 10 largest distributors -> who pays their bills on time -> who is the most valuable partner to us -> who doesn't "loophole" cheap kits by bundling it or hiding the cost creating a headache for us?

3a. Even if these deals were "exclusivity" deals where those 6 paid gobs of money to have rights to distribute, it's still easier for shimano.

4. If shimano executes on what I'm assuming is a long term plan, things can be easier for the dealer. Shimano will have better forecasting, better QC and hopefully ramp up their customer service to support it.

5. As long as shimano maintains/grows their OEM marketshare - they need to do a better job - they can feed the rest of their business.

It will be a pain in the ass short term. The bike industry HATES change. Some shops will have to shift things around a little bit. They will have to spend more time in online catalogs trying to find a compatible, non shimano part. The customer may lose out on replacement part pricing (there will be a whole lotta FSA cranks being sold).

The flip side is that Shimano assumes they can dictate ALL the terms when they aren't able to support it. (IE some CEO read a white paper on Apple and decided "hey, lets just do it like them.")

.....and.....scene!

All true except for number 2. Unrestricted OEM resale goes on all the time, as does 'container filling'..Container in malasia 3/4 full of shimano 'gear. shimano calls 'somebody', give you a screaming deal on 'X' to fill the container-otherwise shipping partially full is more expensive.

'X' great big OE frame maker buys 25,000 ultegra groups, resells 3000 to MO...happens all the time. 'Maybe' that will change as shimano takes better charge of their distribution but I doubt it.

The big one is a distributor that owns a retail outlet. I'm thinking some of the ones that got axed 'may' be included in this category.

For the gent right above, Bamtamben...do a little searching and you will find all the ways bike stuff gets to market thru 'alternative' distribution channels.

Called grey market. Manufacturers could fix this but they still ant to sell product. When a gent comes to the meeting with a suitcase full of euros(or Yen), and wants whatever at this price, manufacturers will sell it.

[Gummee]

Since I work for the industry's 800# gorilla, I see this affecting us at the retail level in the repair (me) end of things. I order from J&B *lots* for stuff like 'lawn furniture grade' derailleurs, etc.

If I have to order from QBP, company policy sez I gotta have $300-ish min order. That's a s--- ton of low-end stuff!

M

[oldpotatoe]

Since I work for the industry's 800# gorilla, I see this affecting us at the retail level in the repair (me) end of things. I order from J&B *lots* for stuff like 'lawn furniture grade' derailleurs, etc.

If I have to order from QBP, company policy sez I gotta have $300-ish min order. That's a s--- ton of low-end stuff!

M

All true, nice that J/B doesn't really have a minimum but even teeny shop like mine, I always have more than even the minimum for free shipping..$600. haven't paid shipping for years.

I honestly never understood how anybody could compete with QBP. They have the best or real close, prices, best fill rate, best shipping $(free), 2 day delivery. I see that some distributors will be going away because of this. I think shimano really doesn't care, as long as their bottom line improves.

[Gummee]

All true, nice that J/B doesn't really have a minimum but even teeny shop like mine, I always have more than even the minimum for free shipping..$600. haven't paid shipping for years.

I honestly never understood how anybody could compete with QBP. They have the best or real close, prices, best fill rate, best shipping $(free), 2 day delivery. I see that some distributors will be going away because of this. I think shimano really doesn't care, as long as their bottom line improves...and coincidentally, I'll bet the 'little guy' gets hosed. In this case, the 'little guy' is the end user, not us shop types. It'll be a bigger PITA for us, but in the end, things'll go on.

...and in a few years when Shimano realizes they're losing $ on having a huge shipping/receiving staff, they'll go back the other way. Some new grad will look at all those salaries and wonder 'why don't we just sell container-loads of parts to a more wholesalers and skip this IBA small order stuff?! We'll save a ton of $ and improve our margins!'

M

[oldpotatoe]

..and coincidentally, I'll bet the 'little guy' gets hosed. In this case, the 'little guy' is the end user, not us shop types. It'll be a bigger PITA for us, but in the end, things'll go on.

...and in a few years when Shimano realizes they're losing $ on having a huge shipping/receiving staff, they'll go back the other way. Some new grad will look at all those salaries and wonder 'why don't we just sell container-loads of parts to a more wholesalers and skip this IBA small order stuff?! We'll save a ton of $ and improve our margins!'

M

Well, Wayne Stetina told me once, when I asked why shimano went to a cart bearing headset, higher stack height, making a whole generation of forks obsolete.."well, we are dealing with the Japanese owners and they are going to do what they want'..not meant to be degrading aboiut the Japanese, but they are business people in the true sense of the word and 'can' be viewed as predatory..anything for biz. They thought a certain size of bearing was essential to this HS and so it had to be this stack height-get over it..buy a new fork.

They have the same view of BB30..still NO BB30, no adapters, no carbon cranks..etc...

[Kirk Pacenti]

Just got off the phone with SBA. They are meeting with Shimano today and will get back to me tomorrow.

Hopefully they [SBA] will remain a OE supplier to small builders in the US. I can't imagine Shimano USA being able to handle this in house, and as big as they are, don't imagine QBP being able to offer kits as competitively as SBA has...

[oldpotatoe]

Just got off the phone with SBA. They are meeting with Shimano today and will get back to me tomorrow.

Hopefully they [SBA] will remain a OE supplier to small builders in the US. I can't imagine Shimano USA being able to handle this in house, and as big as they are, don't imagine QBP being able to offer kits as competitively as SBA has...

Yep, most of SBAs biz is OEM, methinks. I'd love to know how shimano chose the ones they did. KHS?? Was it $ or promised $ or what. I still think it had something to do with distributors and which supplied deep discounters, either here or over there.

Seattle Bike Supply? I tried to order some other stuff from them and they were out of 50% of the stuff i needed.

[wildboar]

Does Shimano already distribute their fishing stuff this way?

[Kirk Pacenti]

Yep, most of SBAs biz is OEM, methinks. I'd love to know how shimano chose the ones they did. KHS?? Was it $ or promised $ or what. I still think it had something to do with distributors and which supplied deep discounters, either here or over there.

Seattle Bike Supply? I tried to order some other stuff from them and they were out of 50% of the stuff i needed.


KHS has a huge P&A catalog and very good fill rates. You do not have to be a KHS dealer to buy from them.

[R2D2]

Well, Wayne Stetina told me once, when I asked why shimano went to a cart bearing headset, higher stack height, making a whole generation of forks obsolete.."well, we are dealing with the Japanese owners and they are going to do what they want'..not meant to be degrading aboiut the Japanese, but they are business people in the true sense of the word and 'can' be viewed as predatory..anything for biz. They thought a certain size of bearing was essential to this HS and so it had to be this stack height-get over it..buy a new fork.

They have the same view of BB30..still NO BB30, no adapters, no carbon cranks..etc...

Interesting.
I've heard the same said of Fuji. If they can make more money down the next block they'll forget your shop in a heartbeat.

[J.Greene]

How will this affect the business being done on Amazon? I'm always surpised that I see prices very close to wholesale through the Amazon site.

[FlashUNC]

Yep, most of SBAs biz is OEM, methinks. I'd love to know how shimano chose the ones they did. KHS?? Was it $ or promised $ or what. I still think it had something to do with distributors and which supplied deep discounters, either here or over there.

Seattle Bike Supply? I tried to order some other stuff from them and they were out of 50% of the stuff i needed.

I think it was telling in the Bicycle Retailer story that the QBP chief declined to discuss how they got picked over others, dropping words like collusion and pricing as potential hazards for discussing the agreement.

Sounds like its a messy process they're undergoing.

[Dude]

Follow up to my post....
I did not know about manufacturers dumping stuff on the grey market. I worked for a very large manufacturer and never saw any of that (I guess that's why it's grey).

[oldpotatoe]

KHS has a huge P&A catalog and very good fill rates. You do not have to be a KHS dealer to buy from them.

Yep, I know that 'KHS' isn't, "KHS", the bicycles.