Can I ride Like Indurain *

[jimcav]

I shudder to think of my current numbers, but it is cool to know in 2 years I can see exactly how far off Big Mig's numbers I am:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22868823

* rhetorical, I know I can't, but it is always "nice" to see in real numbers how far you really are from your younger days' dreams.

[54ny77]

that is friggin' nuts.

he's definitely a ringer for masters worlds.... ;)

[markie]

Thanks for posting!

I like this bit:"Nevertheless, Indurain's absolute maximal and submaximal oxygen uptake and power output still compare favorably with those exhibited by active professional cyclists."

Is it true? I guess I do not know the metrics for a pro cyclist so I cannot make a judgement.

[jimcav]

Thanks for posting!

I like this bit:"Nevertheless, Indurain's absolute maximal and submaximal oxygen uptake and power output still compare favorably with those exhibited by active professional cyclists."

Is it true? I guess I do not know the metrics for a pro cyclist so I cannot make a judgement.

I was hoping some with such knowledge would chime in here--i think that much of the numbers i see/hear seem to come from disreputable dope doctors. I guess if they published the PM numbers off the top guys, it would be too easy to figure out if doping is likely.

[wasfast]

There's a table from "Training and Racing with a Powermeter" that shows watts per kilogram (w/kg) for several durations. Those values allow you to see where you fall on a scale from novice to world class.

Certainly Indurain has the basic genetics. You'll never be a pro without them. His weight is 92kg in the test which, despite his excellent power, would not bode well on climbs even with masters I suspect.

The numbers that pros can do, even the domestics, is amazing. You don't quite relate to them until you have been using a power meter for a while. Having the various SRM files that show a given rider's power for a race stage is again, amazing.

[jimcav]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11428685
Abstract
Male professional road cycling competitions last between 1 hour (e.g. the time trial in the World Championships) and 100 hours (e.g. the Tour de France). Although the final overall standings of a race are individual, it is undoubtedly a team sport. Professional road cyclists present with variable anthropometric values, but display impressive aerobic capacities [maximal power output 370 to 570 W, maximal oxygen uptake 4.4 to 6.4 L/min and power output at the onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA) 300 to 500 W]. Because of the variable anthropometric characteristics, 'specialists' have evolved within teams whose job is to perform in different terrain and racing conditions. In this respect, power outputs relative to mass exponents of 0.32 and 1 seem to be the best predictors of level ground and uphill cycling ability, respectively. However, time trial specialists have been shown to meet requirements to be top competitors in all terrain (level and uphill) and cycling conditions (individually and in a group). Based on competition heart rate measurements, time trials are raced under steady-state conditions, the shorter time trials being raced at average intensities close to OBLA (approximately 400 to 420 W), with the longer ones close to the individual lactate threshold (LT, approximately 370 to 390 W). Mass-start stages, on the other hand, are raced at low mean intensities (approximately 210 W for the flat stages, approximately 270 W for the high mountain stages), but are characterised by their intermittent nature, with cyclists spending on average 30 to 100 minutes at, and above LT, and 5 to 20 minutes at, and above OBLA.

[jimcav]

Power Output during the Tour de France.
Vogt S, Schumacher YO, Roecker K, Dickhuth HH, Schoberer U, Schmid A, Heinrich L.
SourceDepartment of Preventive and Rehabilitative Sports Medicine, University of Freiburg, Freiburg, Germany. stefan.vogt@uniklinik-freiburg.de

Abstract
The aim of this study was to evaluate the demands of riding a "Grand Tour" by monitoring both heart rate and power output in 15 professional cyclists. SRM power output profiles (SRM Trainingsystem, Jülich, Germany) were collected during 148 mass start stages during the 2005 Tour de France and analyzed to establish average power, heart rate (HR) and cadence produced in different terrain categories (flat [FLT]; semi-mountainous [SMT]; mountainous [MT]). The maximal mean power (MMP) for progressively longer durations was quantified. Average HR was similar between FLT (133 +/- 10 bpm) and SMT (134 +/- 8 bpm) but higher during MT (140 +/- 3 bpm). Average power output revealed a similar trend (FLT 218 +/- 21 W [3.1 +/- 0.3 W/kg], SMT 228 +/- 22 W [3.3 +/- 0.3 W/kg], and MT 234 +/- 13 W [3.3 +/- 0.2 W/kg]). Cadence during MT was approximately 6 - 7 rpm lower (81 +/- 15 rpm) compared to FLT or SMT. During MT stages, the MMP for 1800 sec. was highest (394 W vs. 342 W) but the MMP 15 was lower (836 W vs. 895 W) compared to FLT. The data document comprehensively the power output demands during the Tour de France.

[bikingshearer]

I do know that, back in the day, there was a fair amount written about Indurain's absolutely other-worldly VO2 max, heart rate max, resting heart rate, and heart rate recovery numbers. He had (and apparently still has) an amazing engine. He also rode a pre-cancer Lance Armstrong (who was already as strong as an ox) off his wheel in a hilly TdF stage, to Lance's amazement. Like many of the very best, he is something of a freak of nature in a way that gave him a natural advantage in a three-week long stage race.

That is not to say that that is all that got him there. Natural talent is meaningless without a lot of focused hard work, and he clearly did that. The combination of natural ability, proper training and a modicum of savvy is the winning combination. (And no, doping alone will not get it done. Doping may help the best be better, but it will never make me, for example, a TdF winner, or even a TdF participant.)

[bikingshearer]

The numbers that pros can do, even the domestics, is amazing. You don't quite relate to them until you have been using a power meter for a while. Having the various SRM files that show a given rider's power for a race stage is again, amazing.

I watched the 2012 Tour of California go up Mt. Diablo from the side of the road about three miles up. Seeing how fast a completely intact (except for a handful of attackers) went up with the look of this being just another day at the office was great way to see first hand what the numbers confirm - these are amazing athletes. All of them.

[shovelhd]

Call me a dissenter. His numbers are OK for a 62kg rider but at 92kg they are abysmal. To be competitive in Masters racing around here you need to be at or above 4.5w/kg and 5w/kg is very common. Not that ewang is a determining factor of success, because it's not, but if you're way off, it's going to be a problem.

I race with domestic pros all the time. What they have that an old fart like me doesn't have anymore is the pop, the ability to be going really hard and then just BAM hit the gas for 10 seconds and ride away. They can do it over and over and over again.

[jimcav]

Call me a dissenter. His numbers are OK for a 62kg rider but at 92kg they are abysmal. To be competitive in Masters racing around here you need to be at or above 4.5w/kg and 5w/kg is very common. Not that ewang is a determining factor of success, because it's not, but if you're way off, it's going to be a problem.

I race with domestic pros all the time. What they have that an old fart like me doesn't have anymore is the pop, the ability to be going really hard and then just BAM hit the gas for 10 seconds and ride away. They can do it over and over and over again.

not sure what the 4.5-5w/kg refers to--not ave power surely?

[rain dogs]

Someone more in the know can amend this, but with my limited understanding, the OBLA test is when your body gets to the point of 4.0 mM of lactate per litre of blood. This is when your body starts going "in the red" and your body recruits different muscle fibers to keep going (more fast twitch).

So, usually this is what a FT test is figuring out... or the famous Ferrari test (where he said the maximum of human potential (while doped) is 6.8W/kg.)

Now, Indurain is fat now, so you can't draw strong conclusions looking at W/kg, because he isn't lean. He's not 92kg of skin, bone and muscle with 5% fat. His riding weight was as low as 78kg.

He's also not training like he did then, but can still produce 369W at OBLA.

Yes, at 92kg that's a modest 4.01W/kg, but at 78kg (if he only lost the fat and didn't gain power in the process), that's 4.73W/kg (or about low Cat. 1/High Cat.2).

On Ax-3 Domaines the W/kg and Raw power up the climb which Froome did in 23'15" was (using the Ferrari method):

Froome - 6.24W/kg @ 430 Watts (very, very high)
Porte - 6.00W/kg @ 367W
Valverde - 5.95W/kg @ 362W
Quintana - 5.7W/kg @ 337W
Contador - 5.8W/kg @ 360W

Indurain's numbers aren't crazy, but for a dude who's almost 50, being able to pump out 370W at OBLA when you don't train like as a professional, is damn impressive, he's still producing more power than most of the boys, less Froome, did going up Ax-3 Domaines, but he's obviously quite heavy now, and with that weight vs his power, he couldn't even make the time cut.

[shovelhd]

not sure what the 4.5-5w/kg refers to--not ave power surely?

At FTP. Big VO2max is impressive and can win you some races but it is fleeting.

I don't buy calculated power no matter who puts their name behind it. Give me real numbers like the OP did. They speak for themselves.

[rain dogs]

...nevermind, I misunderstood what you were replying to.

[soulspinner]

Call me a dissenter. His numbers are OK for a 62kg rider but at 92kg they are abysmal. To be competitive in Masters racing around here you need to be at or above 4.5w/kg and 5w/kg is very common. Not that ewang is a determining factor of success, because it's not, but if you're way off, it's going to be a problem.

I race with domestic pros all the time. What they have that an old fart like me doesn't have anymore is the pop, the ability to be going really hard and then just BAM hit the gas for 10 seconds and ride away. They can do it over and over and over again.

He doesn't race anymore but does anyone know his weight during the 5 straight tour wins?

[rockdude]

His W/kg is not even up to the Podium 45+4 racing in Colorado. His w/kg Values at the 4-mM onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA) needs to be 4.5 or great to get on the podium. If he lost 40 pounds he could compete in the 45+ open. I suspect he just doesn't train, If he did train he would be a monster, but at his weight and these numbers, he is mid-pack 45+4.

[verticaldoug]

Reality check.

The guy gets off the couch with better numbers than most of us will ever have.
First race without training he is mid-pack. Okay, by his 3 or 4 race, he now has ridden himself into a little shape and will dish out the hurt. With all his experience, he is just going to be way more efficient in the peloton. It'll be like watching a cat playing with a mouse.

[soulspinner]

Reality check.

The guy gets off the couch with better numbers than most of us will ever have.
First race without training he is mid-pack. Okay, by his 3 or 4 race, he now has ridden himself into a little shape and will dish out the hurt. With all his experience, he is just going to be way more efficient in the peloton. It'll be like watching a cat playing with a mouse.

Yup

[shovelhd]

I race against ex-pros every week. None that were at his level but we are talking Olympians, national champions. They don't always win.

[verticaldoug]

I race against ex-pros every week. None that were at his level but we are talking Olympians, national champions. They don't always win.

No they don't always win. If you look at Big Mig's wall, you'll see 5 TDF, 2 Giro, a World Champ TT and an Olympic Gold for TT on the wall. In your book maybe he is just an ex-pro, but in my book he is still one of the legends.

[shovelhd]

I'm not dissing his past accomplishments. I am only bringing reality into the results of this "study". If he's your guy and you want to worship him for what he did in the past, go right ahead. My comments have to do with the implication that he could jump into a race tomorrow and dominate.

[pbarry]

I'm not dissing his past accomplishments. I am only bringing reality into the results of this "study". If he's your guy and you want to worship him for what he did in the past, go right ahead.

No worship here, but don't know of any top caliber ex-European pros in MA...Sorry, none of your guys have ever accomplished what Big Mig did. Why don't youse all in Central MA put up some dough and invite him for a little circuit race. You've been pounding on wattage throughout the thread. Truth comes at the line.

[shovelhd]

I don't think you comprehend a thing I wrote.

[pbarry]

No I do.;) You've got a chip on your shoulder throughout the thread cause your buddies seemingly have higher wattage than Mig does, and this seems to bother you, or something.

So pay for them to go to Spain, or bring him here and settle it on a race course. Otherwise, it's just "my brother/friend is tougher than your brother/friend" schoolyard banter.

[54ny77]

http://images.newarkadvertiser.co.uk/articles/old/150908MAT4-8.jpg

[shovelhd]

I rest my case.

[pbarry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzBgR0UoYo