Is that time for disc ?

[jerome]

Sure disc won't change our life because we care about the ride first in all case, riding !

But ... tech evolution are part of life for ever and the bring their part in enhancing our life (sometimes ... not of the time)

Is that Time ?


So if you had to go for a CX disc or road CX will it be :

Cable + Disc
or
Di2 + Disc

I mean SRAM vs Shimano for now as Shimano has made no announcement for aCable/Disc group and SRAM is not in e-Bike yet.

[oldpotatoe]

Sure disc won't change our life because we care about the ride first in all case, riding !

But ... tech evolution are part of life for ever and the bring their part in enhancing our life (sometimes ... not of the time)

Is that Time ?


So if you had to go for a CX disc or road CX will it be :

Cable + Disc
or
Di2 + Disc

I mean SRAM vs Shimano for now as Shimano has made no announcement for aCable/Disc group and SRAM is not in e-Bike yet.

Like on MTB with V brakes and MTB with discs in the muck, wet, mud, I think cross or road is the question. I can see some advantages for disc on cross(and some disadvantages-pad wear, difficulty in changing pads during race, complexity, weight, cost) but those largely don't exist on the road, muck, mire, wet, mud.


Like riding with fenders when it's dry 98% of the time, discs for that day or few where it rains, is the complexity, cost, major frame/fork changes, hubs, weight, 'worth it'? On the road?

Teeny segment use carbon rims and do huge descents...'worth it'??

There are a comin, along with the mentioned, frame, fork, hub, lever, changes. Alng with such wonderful 'innovations' like semi enclosed, hidden disc calipers, internal lines, etc..can't wait.

[Charles M]

Having been on Disc Road...

It's better braking in all conditions and particularly with Carbon wheels...

The Disc more so than Hydro Rim (Remember this isn't a Disc only thing).

Not loads more power, but SUPER smooth modulation and fantastic control. And that goes for warm dry roads as much as wet.

It's a very good move strictly relative to braking performance, just like Discs were an improvement all round on Mountainbikes regardless of trail conditions...

Yes they're MUCH MUCH better in the wet and goo, but they're better in the dry as well.

[miguel]

my favorite part about disc road in the rain is when they are both squealing at different tones.

[corky]

and the dreaded sound of brake rub to look forward to....

[tuscanyswe]

Disc for roadbikes? Not until the market stop selling wheels for calipers!

[Charles M]

and the dreaded sound of brake rub to look forward to....

How much rub sound did you get on the new system? which system and where did you ride it?

[Louis]

disc for roadbikes? Not until the market stop selling wheels for calipers!

+1

[rice rocket]

and the dreaded sound of brake rub to look forward to....

My 180mm Shimano rotors don't rub, and I bounced that front disc off rocks, trees, etc.

Are you a clydes running 203s or something? Or are you just speculating?

[redir]

Last I heard there was still a problem with fade on long road descents has that been solved. I was up at Fresh Bikes last weekend and the guy who runs that shop seems to think disk is happening fast now and will be all over the cross circuit in no time. I still have my doubts but we'll see. I could see them being very beneficial in cross but I won't be changing any time soon.

[oldpotatoe]

Having been on Disc Road...

It's better braking in all conditions and particularly with Carbon wheels...

The Disc more so than Hydro Rim (Remember this isn't a Disc only thing).

Not loads more power, but SUPER smooth modulation and fantastic control. And that goes for warm dry roads as much as wet.

It's a very good move strictly relative to braking performance, just like Discs were an improvement all round on Mountainbikes regardless of trail conditions...

Yes they're MUCH MUCH better in the wet and goo, but they're better in the dry as well.

I guess and you mentioned hydro calipers, but the teams at that Tour in France don't seem to agree. Just a bike shop putz who watches it and looks at 3-4 web sites about it, but none seem to be opting for wet calipers from sram. And at least a few rumors that a certain little sprinter decided to not use them.
Riding and descending in various dirt conditions, yep, I agree, wet discs are a BIG improvement over V brakes, but that 'improvement' much smaller on a standard road bike, on dry roads, IMHO. Not me sayin' here, but those who have taken a wet disc road bike for a 'spin'.

Still think it's a good thing for cross, still think it's in the not necessary on a enthusiast's road bike, category, considering what it's going to take to put wet discs onto a standard road frame.

But it'll happen, another thing coming from the MTB world(like tubeless and oversized headtubes/forks)..for good or ill.

My opinion here, from the trenches.

[Charles M]

It's a very easy install for a bike that's made to take em. The bleed is easier than any MTB system I've used (mostly because the levers are made with the valve right at the top).

I was in Springs with SRAM building up bike with both rim and disc Hydro last week and there were virtually zero issues.

And I've been on the road using both systems in the hills. I'm not guessing or suggesting second hand...

Not saying people wont struggle though. I know folks that complain about brake set up and running "complicated" cable sets like Nokon and Aican, so it's not like we cant find a reason to gripe about virtually everything new or existing.

[KidWok]

I'm pretty sure I won't be interested for pure road racing bikes. Somewhere between the time my Merckx Professional was built and before Di2 was released, they perfected the definition of a road bike. Most of the pertinent technological gains were already achieved. Bearings in hubs were already super high quality, fast and durable...now everything has gone to sealed bearings that often don't last as long and are usually slower. We didn't need 10 gears in the back, much less 11 (okay...I did like having one more than 8 and shifting at my fingertips...I admit it). Adding more gears only made shifting more finicky, so now we have e-shifting to fix that. We didn't need carbon rims that braked poorly to now justify new brakes that require new frames. Every year, it's 10% stiffer this, 35 grams lighter that, but the bike I feel fastest on is my flexy Merckx with SLX tubing. There aren't that many groundbreaking changes happening anymore. At one point, I laughed about how people were paying almost a dollar per saved gram...now it's probably way more than a dollar.

I view the move to disc brakes as just another attempt by the industry to force consumers to buy more. It's a time honored formula that works...people will buy it if it's newer and cooler. That's great for people like me...happy to keep riding level top tube road bikes with mechanical shifting and normal brakes. Please keep offloading them here for cheap!

Btw...did you see this review of the C59 disc? Yeah...not hydro, but they have to stiffen up the frame to support disc brakes and it kills the ride quality...no thanks.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/bikes/road/product/review-colnago-c59-disc-13-47194

Tai

[firerescuefin]

....and I look at what talented builders like Dave Kirk are doing with bikes like this:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=132316

and I think it should be my next bike.

I'm pretty sure I won't be interested for pure road racing bikes. Somewhere between the time my Merckx Professional was built and before Di2 was released, they perfected the definition of a road bike. Most of the pertinent technological gains were already achieved. Bearings in hubs were already super high quality, fast and durable...now everything has gone to sealed bearings that often don't last as long and are usually slower. We didn't need 10 gears in the back, much less 11 (okay...I did like having one more than 8 and shifting at my fingertips...I admit it). Adding more gears only made shifting more finicky, so now we have e-shifting to fix that. We didn't need carbon rims that braked poorly to now justify new brakes that require new frames. Every year, it's 10% stiffer this, 35 grams lighter that, but the bike I feel fastest on is my flexy Merckx with SLX tubing. There aren't that many groundbreaking changes happening anymore. At one point, I laughed about how people were paying almost a dollar per saved gram...now it's probably way more than a dollar.

I view the move to disc brakes as just another attempt by the industry to force consumers to buy more. It's a time honored formula that works...people will buy it if it's newer and cooler. That's great for people like me...happy to keep riding level top tube road bikes with mechanical shifting and normal brakes. Please keep offloading them here for cheap!

Btw...did you see this review of the C59 disc? Yeah...not hydro, but they have to stiffen up the frame to support disc brakes and it kills the ride quality...no thanks.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/bikes/road/product/review-colnago-c59-disc-13-47194

Tai

[oldpotatoe]

It's a very easy install for a bike that's made to take em. The bleed is easier than any MTB system I've used (mostly because the levers are made with the valve right at the top).

I was in Springs with SRAM building up bike with both rim and disc Hydro last week and there were virtually zero issues.

And I've been on the road using both systems in the hills. I'm not guessing or suggesting second hand...

Not saying people wont struggle though. I know folks that complain about brake set up and running "complicated" cable sets like Nokon and Aican, so it's not like we cant find a reason to gripe about virtually everything new or existing.

Yep, that's all I'm doing is 'griping'.

I would hope that the people from sram could set these up with 'zero issues'.

In the main test arean for new stuff, the TdF, teams have opted to not use them.

I have ridden Magura wet calipers and altho they work, modulate well, they are way, WAY too strong.

I see wet discs on road bikes very much like electronic shifting. IF mechanical shifting was vague, unreliable, inaccurate, then why not electronic to fix that(not the case, however).

If DP calipers were weak, poor, unreliable, didn't stop the bike, then sure, a new brake system BUT it's not like replacing drum brakes on cars.

You like 'em and that's great. I think they are not 'worth' the money, weight, complication.

But they will still be on road bikes, a lot of them, in 2015. Groovey, I'm quittin' anyway.

[cxboy]

Tried them, went back to my avid ultimate cantis....

[Mark McM]

I guess and you mentioned hydro calipers, but the teams at that Tour in France don't seem to agree. Just a bike shop putz who watches it and looks at 3-4 web sites about it, but none seem to be opting for wet calipers from sram. And at least a few rumors that a certain little sprinter decided to not use them.

Regarding their use in the racing peleton - do disc brakes present any additional problems with wheel interchangeability?

I'm wondering about two particular aspects:

Pad clearance and rotor offset: since disc brake pad clearance is so much smaller than rim brake pad clearance, variations in rotor offset (and width) may affect wheel interchangeability between different bikes or brands of wheels - not mention the variability of different rotor diameters. unless rotor diameters, widths and offsets are standardized (and to what precision?), neutral wheel support will be problematic.

Speed of wheel changes: I have only used disc brakes on MTBs, but I have found that wheel changes are a bit slower with disc brake wheels than with rim brake wheels. The difference is measured in seconds, but will the extra time be enough to discourage racing teams from using them in events where a slow wheel change in case of a puncture can make a difference?

[LesMiner]

I did a test ride this past weekend on a new Foundry Thresher disc brake road bike. I spent less than a hour so more time, miles, and terrain would be better. First thing I did was weigh it. The bike without pedals came in just over 20 lbs. Not a light weight by any means even though it is a full carbon frame. The wheels were real heavy, low end I believe. It was outfitted with Ultegra compact group with Shimano disc calipers. Also a Shimano 105 cassette, QBP must be be going for lower cost. The frame is set up to accomodate Di2. The bike looks good, flat black with minimal subdued markings and logos to match current fashion. MSRP is over $3500.

Geometery is relaxed to be more endurance than race. It rode as good as any other carbon frame. Stiffer frame than most. I did get a little descent in, 35 mph. No problem applying the brakes. I wanted to see if there was any chatter but there was none. I tried locking up the brakes and came to stop quickly, no skidding though. These are mechanical brakes so the braking effort is not all that different from rim brakes. I rode over some pretty choppy road surfaces, broken pavement and pot holes. No problem, the bike handled well. The tires were not at max pressure, maybe 100psi or less. So any road roughness was taken in by the tires. I went into climbs standing trying put as much force as I could to the pedals. I felt some give but I think it was mostly the tires. I was disappointed with climbing. I am not a climber by any means but I can sure tell the difference. No comparison to my lighter Scott CR1 which has Dura Ace and a lot lighter wheels. The wheels are just too heavy and it is not just the addition of the disc. There are disc brake type wheels out there that weigh 1400 grams or so.

I would have to spend a lot to bring this bike to where I would want it. It does have many good attributes but component configuration and choice are lacking, ATMO. For comparison the Ridley X-Ride is similar and at Competitive Cyclist configured with Ultegra Di2 it is just over $3500. It is also lighter, 17+ lbs with Di2.

This makes the Dave Kirk build way more attractive!

[Charles M]

I would hope that the people from sram could set these up with 'zero issues'.


I have ridden Magura wet calipers and altho they work, modulate well, they are way, WAY too strong.


The SRAM guys can set it up, but they weren't doing it. The hands on builds were tech guys from publications and nobody there struggled at all...

You only had half the system running the Magura. SRAM's set up is a built for road/cross caliper tied to a piston lever designed for the system. The modulation and force are simply a slicker design/purpose built set up. I would guess that Magura will very quickly adapt the calipers and have a quality production unit though.

Didn't know you we're quitting! That's a loss for your area.

[oldpotatoe]

The SRAM guys can set it up, but they weren't doing it. The hands on builds were tech guys from publications and nobody there struggled at all...

You only had half the system running the Magura. SRAM's set up is a built for road/cross caliper tied to a piston lever designed for the system. The modulation and force are simply a slicker design/purpose built set up. I would guess that Magura will very quickly adapt the calipers and have a quality production unit though.

Didn't know you we're quitting! That's a loss for your area.

Quitting for a lot of reasons, one of which the 'evolution' of really silly bike stuff.

I may be resurrected in a small, very small, industrial park workshop, building wheels and 'Campagnolo solo parlato qui'. But no more traditional 'bike shop', that wears you out, worn out.

[Nags&Ducs]

I just rode down the longest steepest descent that I've ever experienced on my CX Disc bike and I'm now sold on discs. No fade, no worries that I'm overheating the rims (carbon or aluminum). And I'm running Avid BB7s. Would get them on future road bikes without any qualms.

[jerome]

The last comment seems to summarize the majority thoughts.

Discs are the major evolution of cycling for a while, not electric gears.

But... how to accommodate them. Obviously they will find their place on bikes like the Roubaix or CX like frames.

Any thoughs infos on this ?

[Charles M]

Right now I know of a dozen bikes that are not nec Roubaix/cx that will sell shortly with full hydro disc.

Parlee/Alchemy/Sarto are building disc versions on the custom side as well.

[rwsaunders]

Dave Thompson recently let me try his new disc equipped custom roadie prototype...he claims that he's going to give me a deal on the whole package when he's done with it.

[oldpotatoe]

Right now I know of a dozen bikes that are not nec Roubaix/cx that will sell shortly with full hydro disc.

Parlee/Alchemy/Sarto are building disc versions on the custom side as well.

Yep, gonna happen, all internal and with the new Di2/wet hydros for 2014. I'm sure I'll see them at Interbike, for good or ill. And I'll see a cyclist sport them at the local Sunday morning Boulder World Championship for his 30 mile, twice a month, ride.

Everybody will go ohhh-ahhh and he'll still get dropped on the climbs and the descents.

Another example of pro level 'stuff', that may or may not be better for Pros, filtering down to the average enthusiast.

Like

[sparky33]

....and I look at what talented builders like Dave Kirk are doing with bikes like this:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=132316

and I think it should be my next bike.

For road riding, discs aren't worth the extra weight and necessary fork stiffness. I almost never need more stopping power on the road than rim brakes provide.

For trails and cx, discs would be worth it as the terrain frequently asks for more stopping power, and a stiffer fork is appropriate anyway. Low weight is a lower priority.

That disc Kirk is stunning.

My recent Kirk is basically the same bike but with canti brakes, probably the same size too. I went with cantis for the above reasons...the fork ride quality is big in my book. That was a good decision for me.

1697864352

[redir]

I think light weight is more important in cross then on the road but I'd still take the trade off with disk for CX. When racing to a hole shot you need to have the best stopping power as you can go faster and further to the point where braking is necessary. Also if you taco a wheel you can just stomp it back into shape and keep on going. Happened to me in a MTB race once. I took the wheel off and stomped on it to get it as straight as possible and proceeded to ride that way for months after :D

As for road I could do with out disk too. Even at 210lbs my rim brakes stop just fine.

[JayBay]

Awwwww... I miss my 999. The styling was controversial, but I always thought that design was dead sexy.