How much does weight factor into your considerations?

[Serpico]

This weight weenie stuff seems more than a bit silly (pay more for less durable components, whose weight savings would only benefit someone at 10%- body weight who is competing professionally)--BUT, I still find myself saying (to myself) "Damn, this Brooks saddle is heavy" and sometimes reading weights, on retailer websites, doing math trying to add stuff up.

So, what does your bike weigh? How much of a factor is this, in your imho bro?

At what point is considering weight reasonable, and when does it get silly?


thanks :-)



bro, some background:
I am about to be purchasing the gruppo for my new rig. I am trying to decide between record with carbon crank or chorus with alloy.

I'm leaning towards chorus with alloy because the difference between the two choices above is a bit more than half a pound--not much imho--especially when I could lose it in (body) weight so easily. Also, not sure about all that plastic.

Also, the record stuff is almost too "pimpin'" for me personally. Don't ask me why, but at this point a "record-equipped" bike seems a bit much for my needs.

[Larry]

Yes.....indeed that Brooks saddle is darn heavy.
But......it all depends on what you are using your bike for------racing, recreational, fast Saturday club rides, etc.
The big advantage of lightness happens in long hill or mountain climbs.
Yes, even one pound makes a big time difference.

But, for most of us, rider position and efficiency is more important over the long haul.......rides of 50 plus miles.
For 70% of us, losing the weight on the body is more significant than spending $5,000.00 or more to lose one and a half pounds on the bike.

My CSi with Campy 10 is about 19 and 1/2 pounds.

[Marco]

"How Much Does Weight Factor Into Your Decisions?"

Alot. I want to weigh less. "Da*n: I sure want that glass of wine but I know I just shouldn't do it." Decision Time.

[Serotta PETE]

The market is so so competitive now in regard to weight that I pretty much do not focus on weight. Best place to lose weight is in my body (and plenty to lose there).

My typical bikes weight is around 19 and maybe up to 20. Wheels and tires are what I focus on the most. I do have a friend that is ZERO body fat and he focuseson bike weight/ For me a bottle of red always wins out....

Have a good weekend. PETE

[Fixed]

bro my no carbon train-n-bike millie is about 20 pounds she used to weigh 19.5 but i took her carbon fork off and put a steel on i.m.h.o. if you weigh your bike, weight matters to you, around here and I bet it's like that where you are too it's about bragging right as to who as the lightest bike the way i see it your time is better spent ridin than bragging .a solid bike builds cofidence that carries over to your riding and racing i.m.h.o. cheers :beer: merry christmas :fight: :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

snipped quote:
For me a bottle of red always wins out....

yeah what pete-issimo writes.
RED RULES

[mikemets]

56 CIII - 20 lbs
56 Calfee - 18½ lbs
59 C50 - 16½ lbs (like a 57 as measured ctc)

[bluesea]

Everytime I come up with all kinds of great ideas for improving and lightening up my 19.5 lb nag, or building up a really light bike, I end up going for a ride and saying the hell with it. I'm happy with what I have, and it does everything I want it to do in a manner that makes me smile.

[dbrk]

[Disclaimer: You were expecting me to say otherwise?]

Never do I consider weight. I just build the bike to what I think seems sensible both in parts and cost. I think more aesthetically, to be honest. I say, how do I want this bike to ride, how do I achieve that and the look that seems to fit the frame? Weight is a very, very costly consideration to take seriously and unless you really like light, well, you never notice. Lose some of your own weight and it makes waaaaay more difference.

Oh, and red bikes go faster. When the red bike is lugged steel with a white offset headtube, yellow decals, and the tiny Chester, CT decal on the seat tube, _that_ bike goes especially faster.

Note to bluesea: Your "nag" is that light? Geez, my Nag(asawa) comes in at about 18lbs with DA9 downtube shifters. ...just jokin', of course.

dbrk

[ergott]

This weight weenie stuff seems more than a bit silly (pay more for less durable components, whose weight savings would only benefit someone at 10%- body weight who is competing professionally)--BUT, I still find myself saying (to myself) "Damn, this Brooks saddle is heavy" and sometimes reading weights, on retailer websites, doing math trying to add stuff up.

So, what does your bike weigh? How much of a factor is this, in your imho bro?

At what point is considering weight reasonable, and when does it get silly?


thanks :-)



bro, some background:
I am about to be purchasing the gruppo for my new rig. I am trying to decide between record with carbon crank or chorus with alloy.

I'm leaning towards chorus with alloy because the difference between the two choices above is a bit more than half a pound--not much imho--especially when I could lose it in (body) weight so easily. Also, not sure about all that plastic.

Also, the record stuff is almost too "pimpin'" for me personally. Don't ask me why, but at this point a "record-equipped" bike seems a bit much for my needs.


Less and less. I got my bike down to a respectable weight and have no interest in getting it any lighter. I'm too busy keeping off 10lbs since Sept. and losing another 10 over the winter. 20 off me will go a whole lot further than any weight off the bike. Heck I already lost what this bike weighs!!!

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/images/sicco_derks/giant.jpg

[andy mac]

"The big advantage of lightness happens in long hill or mountain climbs.
Yes, even one pound makes a big time difference."(quote)





ok, fess up. how much time diff does a pound or 2 really make??? statisticians please...

[eddief]

As I mentioned in a recent post, I like the Riv Rambouillet and the Steve Rex and the Specialized Sequoia and the coupled Kogswell (heavy). I have no idea what any of them weigh, but it is such a damn pleasure to get on the lighter, I know it's lighter Rex, after riding any of the other three all steel, different ages, bikes.

That said, even though I know the Rex is the weight weenie in the stable, it has its own manner, and in the end, is no more appreciated than the Rambouillet. Just different for a different day.

[Fixed]

"The big advantage of lightness happens in long hill or mountain climbs.
Yes, even one pound makes a big time difference."(quote)





ok, fess up. how much time diff does a pound or 2 really make??? statisticians please... bro I not one of those fitkit dudes but fit and comfort could be just as important on a long climb oh yeah a good set of light wheels cheers :beer: merry christmas :fight: :beer:

[Bradford]

Tie braker, but that is about it.

By the way, I've logged many thousands of miles on Brooks and I've switched over to Aliantes. Just as much comfort (actually, more for me), I don't have to worry about rain, and their not so fricken heavy.

[bluesea]

Note to bluesea: Your "nag" is that light? Geez, my Nag(asawa) comes in at about 18lbs with DA9 downtube shifters. ...just jokin', of course.

dbrk

Yep, Nag-issimo not Naga-sama :) .

I totally agree with DB about the importance of aesthetics.

Il Campionissimo used a B-17. I'll give any B-17 user a dollar if they twist a tire tube across their back.

[Ginger]

When weight trumps comfort and efficiency, that's when I think the weight weenie thing gets silly. Or when they have to add weight to a bike to make it race legal...that's just plain silly.

I had a rocket that weighed 16.5lbs (mid range weight I suppose...) ...it was nice. It was fast. It was REALLY uncomfortable.

I now have a custom Kirk that probably comes in at 19/20. I don't know, I haven't weighed it. It is nice, it is fast. It is REALLY comfortable.

Both had same rotational mass (wheels, cranks, shoes, pedals, etc.). So, I think the 20lbs I lost last winter did more for my riding than the 3 lbs difference between the bikes caused any hinderance. I suspect the 20lbs I'm working on loosing this winter will also do more for my speed than loosing more weight off the kirk.

After this 20lbs...*then* I start looking at loosing weight from the bike if I have to...but you know what?
I don't think I'll have to.
I might get lighter wheels though...maybe...maybe lighter shoes... :banana:

[djg]

"How Much Does Weight Factor Into Your Decisions?"

Alot. I want to weigh less. "Da*n: I sure want that glass of wine but I know I just shouldn't do it." Decision Time.

It's critical. If, after the morning pee, the tanita says 173 or 174, cookies are fair game. At 178, it's extra baby spinach and no dessert for Dan.

I'm not really sure what my bike weighs.

[Climb01742]

these days building up a sub-17 lbs bike without any freaky dangerous superlight bits ain't hard at all and the bike is as comfortable as anything out there (with clinchers no less). light and dangerous aren't synonomous. light and uncomfortable aren't synonomous. if you're riding a bike that weighs more than 17 lbs, you want to...which is totally cool...but climbing on a MXL and a 16 lbs frame are different experiences. i like 'em both, but they are different.

i'm not saying a light bike is any better but it sure isn't hard...or dangerous...or uncomfortable.

[Spicoli]

I can honestly say I know every gram thats on all my wheelsets, but now that you mention it I have no clue what my total bike weight is? I recently bought one of those foofy gram scales but the only thing I worry about is wheels, although I am pretty confident my ride are not anchors.

To the garage I go! Away

Another thing too though, I have resigned myself to the fact I will never be a climber so counting overall grams is not that big of a deal.

[Grant McLean]

This is possibly politically incorrect, but
My theory is that weight is all the rage becsuse it's so easy to measure.

How easy is it to define what "rides great" or "fits great", especially if
you don't really know jack about what you are doing ?

For most people, it's easier to ask "how much does it weigh?"
Next comes ..."does it look cool?"...

Nothing else can really explain why guys that are 50lbs overweight have to have uber-light
bikes with matching tires, bottle cages and handlebar tape. (no offence..)

Personally, I'm a small and light guy, and I still don't find that a few pounds
on the bike really makes much difference. Maybe if I climbed the alps
all day, i'd feel differently. I can do the 100km loop I like to ride on
my 16lb bike, and on my 20lb bike, and the time is the same.

-gee

Like my klingon friend likes to say..."less talk, more synthahol"

[e-RICHIE]

...but climbing on a MXL and a 16 lbs frame are different experiences. i like 'em both, but they are different.


we've been down this road before. an MXL is a frame
and a "16 lbs frame" is a bicycle, i would imagine. all
things being equal (parts, wheels, rider, geometry),
if the only difference is the frame's stationary weight,
are you telling me that you could feel that when you ride?

[fiamme red]

i'm not saying a light bike is any better but it sure isn't hard...or dangerous...or uncomfortable.But it is expensive.

[Fixed]

these days building up a sub-17 lbs bike without any freaky dangerous superlight bits ain't hard at all and the bike is as comfortable as anything out there (with clinchers no less). light and dangerous aren't synonomous. light and uncomfortable aren't synonomous. if you're riding a bike that weighs more than 17 lbs, you want to...which is totally cool...but climbing on a MXL and a 16 lbs frame are different experiences. i like 'em both, but they are different.

i'm not saying a light bike is any better but it sure isn't hard...or dangerous...or uncomfortable. bro I agree but what goes up has to go down cheers :beer:

[weisan]

weight and bike performance are not always synonymous...just as price and quality of bike are not always synonymous vs...no.of.bikes.owned/rode/touched/built/sold/bought/mutilated/scraped/pee-ed on and truly-knowing-what-they-are-talking-abot are not always synonymous vs....character and power of authority are not always synonymous vs ....age and wisdom are not always synonymous vs....what-I-say and what-I-do are not always synonymous....I can go on and on and on.... :rolleyes:

...but sometimes they are, in which case, the angels sing, the children clap, and we rejoice! :p

[Ray]

I can honestly say I know every gram thats on all my wheelsets, but now that you mention it I have no clue what my total bike weight is?
Yup, wheels mainly. Because I can feel it, or at least I strongly believe I can feel it. Frame, no big deal, handlebars, mine are boat anchors. Saddles - I won't sacrifice comfort, but all other things being equal, I'll take lighter here, because I can feel this when I'm out of the saddle. Not a big deal, but all thing being equal. I'm an Aliante guy these days and that's more than light enough. I love the feel of my 17ish pound Spectrum more than any of my 20-22 pound bikes these days, but I don't think it's the weight as much as the geometry and fit.

-Ray

[Peter]

My daily rider is a custom steel frame/fork. I've got 9 speed with bar ends, 26mm clinchers fenders, rear rack, and generator light. I put on a pair of panniers for my daily commute. Okay;let's ignore the loaded panniers. With the pump and seat bag it weighs 27 POUNDS!

In my racing days, this WAS my training bike, as most of my training was straight out of work. I could hang with the Cat. 3's. For some reason, when I switched to my racing bike I didn't turn into a superhero. That made me realize weight wasn't all it's crapped up to be.

Lesson #2: When I started racing, I had a top of the line racing bike. My buddy had the exact same brand; both had Campy Nuovo Record parts. He would just punish me every time we went riding. One day he let me borrow his bike to run an errand. While I had it, I checked it out closely. To my surprise, he did NOT have Campy SL pedals like I did but Japanese imitations that weighed 100 grams more. I then realized weight did not matter that much.

Lesson #3: Try this perspective-a full waterbottle weighs 2.5 pounds. While on a fierce group ride, toss your waterbottle. Does the pain go away? Weight is not that important...

[Sandy]

A bike weighs what a bike weighs.

What a bike weighs is more important in your head than on the road or trail.



Sandy

[shinomaster]

That giant must weigh..what 15lbs??!!!! ha ha that is not respectable! I can't respect you now....

Honestly, I notice weight. I only weigh 144lbs or less when I'm fit. I used to do a climb on my atlanta that was about 2 miles long. My Atlanta was an obese slug and weighed about 20lbs. When I got my Caad 4 with fancy parts that weighed 17.5lbs I noticed that I could get to the top of the same 2 mile long climb in a bigger gear and going faster with less effort. It was either the weight or the frame stiffness or geometry, or everything. Same campy neutron wheels. Same pathetic rider too. Go figure. Something made me faster. :banana:

[xcandrew]

That giant must weigh..what 15lbs??!!!! ha ha that is not respectable! I can't respect you now....


Looking at where that photo came from (right click ->properties), I found that that bike weighs 4537.5g or 10.0 lbs!

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/articles.php?ID=65

[shinomaster]

I knew 15 was too high...I was really thinking 12lbs...what a punk.

[bironi]

It is not about the bike, but we love bikes.

Byron

[shinomaster]

It is not about the bike, but we love bikes.

Byron

I have been in love with bikes since I was in 4th grade...since I was looking in BMX Action at pictures of Team Diamond Back on their Harry Larry's...Redlines etc...Not much has changed for Shinomaster..

[Climb01742]

we've been down this road before. an MXL is a frame
and a "16 lbs frame" is a bicycle, i would imagine. all
things being equal (parts, wheels, rider, geometry),
if the only difference is the frame's stationary weight,
are you telling me that you could feel that when you ride?

in many riding situations, no, the weight difference isn't noticeable. but in two situations i do believe i can feel it: climbing and an out-of-the-saddle acceleration jump. i think two statements are dead wrong: 1) weight doesn't matter at all. 2) weight matters a lot. both extremes are, IMO, silly. the truth, as always, is someplace in the middle. and greatly dependent on individual rider and how he/she rides.

for me, a 16 lbs bike doesn't compromise anything; i'm not sacrificing anything (except perhaps theoretical long-term durability, which is still open to debate) so why not a 16 lbs bike?

[Climb01742]

But it is expensive.

sometimes yes, sometimes no. most of my 16 lbs bikes have same builds: DA10, nimble wheels, deda newton or easton ec90 bars. nothing crazy light or crazy expensive there. what can get pricey is the frame. great frames cost what they cost, irrespective of their weight. (richie charges a fair amount for his frames; not that much different from other high-end frames. and worth it, i must add.) my point is: pricey and weight-weenie aren't synonomous. wonderful, expensive bikes tip the scales at all weights. and light ones come at many price points. a cervelo r3 (850 grams) is $2500. a orbea arin (900 grams) less than $2k. price and weight aren't always linked.

[Climb01742]

bro I agree but what goes up has to go down cheers :beer:

agree. the MXL is the most confidence inspiring bike i've ridden while descending. no question. but my ottrott and Z1 and vxrs aren't far behind. so i might reverse eddy merckx's famous question: for what i gain while descending, what do i sacrifice while climbing?

but all the philosophical jabbing aside, there are great bikes that weigh 20 lbs and great ones that weigh 16 lbs. each rider decides what works best for them.

[Dr. Doofus]

things doof can measure --

gunnar weighs 20lbs

ridley weighs 19 lbs

fuji cross weighs 21lbs

so what

more things doof can measure --

got 3.7 watts/kilo for 30 minutes at fdoo's tempo HR...and real tempo rides won't start until Jan...for the doof, that means something...bike weight? who gives a rat's....

[Dr. Doofus]

things doof can measure --

gunnar weighs 20lbs

ridley weighs 19 lbs

fuji cross weighs 21lbs

so what

more things doof can measure --

got 3.7 watts/kilo for 30 minutes at fdoo's tempo HR...and real tempo rides won't start until Jan...for the doof, that means something...bike weight? who gives a rat's....

[Dr. Doofus]

chimeric twin?

wha happen?

[keno]

For those who care enough to know what weight means in real world terms, here are two sites to play with:

http://www.mne.psu.edu/lamancusa/ProdDiss/Bicycle/bikecalc1.htmn (suggest picking an uphill grade, say 5%, put other items in and vary "bicycle weight" and look at calories per mile or one of the other data outputs to see effect of bicycle weight)

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm (suggest using same methodology given above and fiddle with weight; it is amazing how little, if at all, required wattage changes to maintain a speed at 5% slope with small fluctuations in weight depending upon starting points, say rider at 170 lbs and bike at 17 lbs)

Go figure.

Better yet, go to the classifieds and buy my Computrainer, which is for sale.

keno

[Fixed]

agree. the MXL is the most confidence inspiring bike i've ridden while descending. no question. but my ottrott and Z1 and vxrs aren't far behind. so i might reverse eddy merckx's famous question: for what i gain while descending, what do i sacrifice while climbing?

but all the philosophical jabbing aside, there are great bikes that weigh 20 lbs and great ones that weigh 16 lbs. each rider decides what works best for them.bro I agree, bikes aren't fast unless the rider is i.m.h.o. it's all good, merry christmas cheers :beer: :fight: :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

in many riding situations, no, the weight difference isn't noticeable. but in two situations i do believe i can feel it: climbing and an out-of-the-saddle acceleration jump. i think two statements are dead wrong: 1) weight doesn't matter at all. 2) weight matters a lot. both extremes are, IMO, silly. the truth, as always, is someplace in the middle. and greatly dependent on individual rider and how he/she rides.

for me, a 16 lbs bike doesn't compromise anything; i'm not sacrificing anything (except perhaps theoretical long-term durability, which is still open to debate) so why not a 16 lbs bike?

why not, indeed,
my point is that i don't believe that the difference between
two identical bicycles that differ only in the stationary weight
of the frame can be "felt" - unless you benchpress it.
you may never have never had/or have identical mounts,
but all mine are the same; parts, wheels, geometry. the only
difference is what tube combo i use. the weight differences
are only related to this, nothing else. over the range from the
heaviest combo to the lightest , the bicycles ride the same.

otoh, you have many bicycles and no two are alike, even if
10 of them have ksyriums and shimano 10 mounted on an
Al frame. you can indeed tell the difference, but it is not
the same as simply saying a 16 pound bicycle feels differently
than an 18 pound bicycle.

[dbrk]

for me, a 16 lbs bike doesn't compromise anything; i'm not sacrificing anything (except perhaps theoretical long-term durability, which is still open to debate) so why not a 16 lbs bike?

I've yet to own a 16lbs bike that wears fenders or carries a light or other necessities for a long, unsupported ride that might involve wet and darkness. So, in my mind, a 16lbs is filled with compromises.

I still think weight as such is not the factor it is made out to be, not so much for durability or safety (since I wish not to live longer than I am willing to assume my own notions of risk), but because I wouldn't want to take long rides with the discomforts of an unprovisioned race bike.


no cell, all by myself, it's a long or wet walk home around here,

dbrk

[1centaur]

My lightest bikes are in the mid-16s and my heaviest bikes in the high 17s, and I can tell you why I like the lighter bikes: coming up the 4% grade to my home at the end of a 70 miles ride I appreciate not pushing any more than I need to. I only have rolling hills here (Climb's territory) but they are pretty constant. I really don't care (or actually prefer) if I am on heavier bike when I get more than 2 miles of pretty flat roads, but the rest of the time it's up, down, up, down and I'm not the world's strongest rider, so lighter bikes just give me more pleasure by reducing the effort on long rides. My personal inability to feel weight differences on that kind of ride comes at about 1/2 a pound, averaging out days when I feel strong and days when I feel weak. Time is not part of my equation, only perceived effort.

[Roy E. Munson]

I'd say weight, within a given range, is almost irrelevant to the vast majority of people on this forum. To a seasoned pro, it makes a difference.

[Grant McLean]

My lightest bikes are in the mid-16s and my heaviest bikes in the high 17s, and I can tell you why I like the lighter bikes: coming up the 4% grade to my home at the end of a 70 miles ride I appreciate not pushing any more than I need to. I only have rolling hills here (Climb's territory) but they are pretty constant. I really don't care (or actually prefer) if I am on heavier bike when I get more than 2 miles of pretty flat roads, but the rest of the time it's up, down, up, down and I'm not the world's strongest rider, so lighter bikes just give me more pleasure by reducing the effort on long rides. My personal inability to feel weight differences on that kind of ride comes at about 1/2 a pound, averaging out days when I feel strong and days when I feel weak. Time is not part of my equation, only perceived effort.


On a hot day you can lose more than couple of pounds of sweat on 70 miler.

Maybe you should stop drinking water, and you would be even lighter. ;)

-gee

[ergott]

That giant must weigh..what 15lbs??!!!! ha ha that is not respectable! I can't respect you now....

Honestly, I notice weight. I only weigh 144lbs or less when I'm fit. I used to do a climb on my atlanta that was about 2 miles long. My Atlanta was an obese slug and weighed about 20lbs. When I got my Caad 4 with fancy parts that weighed 17.5lbs I noticed that I could get to the top of the same 2 mile long climb in a bigger gear and going faster with less effort. It was either the weight or the frame stiffness or geometry, or everything. Same campy neutron wheels. Same pathetic rider too. Go figure. Something made me faster. :banana:

Wouldn't you respect me more if that bike weighed 15lbs? I used the pic to point out how much I lost, that's not my bike. ;)

[Sandy]

I'd say weight, within a given range, is almost irrelevant to the vast majority of people on this forum. To a seasoned pro, it makes a difference.

I must be losing it, but I totally agree with Roy. :rolleyes:


Sandy

[ergott]

why not, indeed,
my point is that i don't believe that the difference between
two identical bicycles that differ only in the stationary weight
of the frame can be "felt" - unless you benchpress it.
you may never have never had/or have identical mounts,
but all mine are the same; parts, wheels, geometry. the only
difference is what tube combo i use. the weight differences
are only related to this, nothing else. over the range from the
heaviest combo to the lightest , the bicycles ride the same.

otoh, you have many bicycles and no two are alike, even if
10 of them have ksyriums and shimano 10 mounted on an
Al frame. you can indeed tell the difference, but it is not
the same as simply saying a 16 pound bicycle feels differently
than an 18 pound bicycle.

This is an easy one.

Ride the "light" bike on a set short course (preferably with a steep climb).
Ride the same bike with an without waterbottles full of water and see if you really notice the difference.

I always have a negative split on my rides and I owe it all to the fact that I'm carrying less and less fluids on the bike. :D

[Fixed]

I must be losing it, but I totally agree with Roy. :rolleyes:

bro i.m.h.o. that is a good dude to listen to cheers
Sandy :beer:

[toaster]

A lighter weight bicycle saves time climbing up hills for all riders with the most time savings for the rider who produces the least power. That's because the rider who produces 100 watts takes much longer to climb and savings in time are more evident. The rider who produces 400 watts saves much less time with the light weight bike because he covers the distance faster and his aerodynamic drag is greater given the relatively higher velocity.


Therefore, the stronger rider will gain better time climbing by aero wheels and aero equipment and positioning.

If you're slow, lose weight! If you're fast, get aero!!!! And, if you got money and love bikes, get both!!!!!

[e-RICHIE]

This is an easy one.

Ride the "light" bike on a set short course (preferably with a steep climb).
Ride the same bike with an without waterbottles full of water and see if you really notice the difference.

I always have a negative split on my rides and I owe it all to the fact that I'm carrying less and less fluids on the bike. :D

i was going to say this but you just did.
the only way to even this playing field is to add
the 2 bottles (stationary weight) to the exact same
bicycle. ride with them, and ride without them.
there is your 2 pound difference.
this is silly - you'd NEVER know the weight difference
unless you're dillusional.

[ergott]

i was going to say this but you just did.
the only way to even this playing field is to add
the 2 bottles (stationary weight) to the exact same
bicycle. ride with them, and ride without them.
there is your 2 pound difference.
this is silly - you'd NEVER know the weight difference
unless you're dillusional.

I am honored to have though the same way as you.
:beer:

[e-RICHIE]

I am honored to have though the same way as you.
:beer:


does that mean great minds thin alike?!

[ergott]

A lighter weight bicycle saves time climbing up hills for all riders with the most time savings for the rider who produces the least power. That's because the rider who produces 100 watts takes much longer to climb and savings in time are more evident. The rider who produces 400 watts saves much less time with the light weight bike because he covers the distance faster and his aerodynamic drag is greater given the relatively higher velocity.


Therefore, the stronger rider will gain better time climbing by aero wheels and aero equipment and positioning.

If you're slow, lose weight! If you're fast, get aero!!!! And, if you got money and love bikes, get both!!!!!

A rider putting out 100W would reep the benefits of training more than a lighter bike.

[ergott]

does that mean great minds thin alike?!
any more of this :beer: , and I'll be too :beer: drunk :beer: to ride :beer: later :beer: .
:beer:

[dirtdigger88]

this is silly - you'd NEVER know the weight difference
unless you're dillusional.

this is why the man gets so much tail. . .

My KIRK- it may weigh more than my my other road bikes- but you would never know it while riding- :no:

Jason

[Sandy]

i was going to say this but you just did.
the only way to even this playing field is to add
the 2 bottles (stationary weight) to the exact same
bicycle. ride with them, and ride without them.
there is your 2 pound difference.
this is silly - you'd NEVER know the weight difference
unless you're dillusional.

I'm dillusional and I never notice the weight difference. What does that mean? :)

Sometimes Sane Sometimes Stable Serotta Sandy

[David Kirk]

The water bottle test is one that never fails. Try it........add 2lbs to the bike and see how slow it is.

Dave

If you want to test rotating weight tape the bottles to the rims.........you'll feel that for sure.

[andy mac]

does that mean great minds thin alike?!



good comedy e-richie rich.

[e-RICHIE]

good comedy e-richie rich.


i though so too!

[Grant McLean]

does that mean great minds thin alike?!


...old fools seldom stiffer?


:banana: :banana: :banana:

-gee

[jerk]

buy the jerk's 15.8 pound time. it's really light and really awesome and you'll get lots of high-fives when you ride it.

jerk

[Climb01742]

plus you'll get to the top MUCH faster than guys riding 20 lbs bikes. :banana: :D :p :beer:

[andy mac]

yep, jump at least 2 spots in the GC. from 34,789,678 to 34,789,676.

not far to the yellow from there kids.

[shinomaster]

It's reall all about how fit you are at a given ride. If your not fit you are slow. Fit ...Fast..
I did a ride a few weeks ago after racing cross and I was climbing the fastest I had climbed all year, and I was using my more heavy wheels that I didn't think climbed very well. On that day those wheels worked great! I think the fitness is way more of an issue.

[vaxn8r]

I think it's more than just the weight alone. I had the exact same experience as Shino with my 21 lb. Atlanta. Even with ultra light wheels I could not climb with the same people I normally can on my lighter bikes.

It wasn't geometry or fit because I had position dialed in to the mm. It wasn't time on the bike. I rode all of them a lot. It wasn't wheelsets or components.

So what is it? I think it's a combination of weight and, more importantly, resilience. Something about the overall stiffness/harshness of the Atlanta in those heavy tubes transmitted every road imperfection into my feet, butt, hands, shoulders. The bike was fatiguing to ride. I don't think you can perform properly when you're being jackhammered. So there's my theory. If you don't sacrifice too many good qualities of a frame by "overbuilding" it, then weight is probably not super important.

I think that's why people love CF. All your energy can be harnessed into making it go rather than being "worked on" by the road. And for the record, even if you can produce a 20 lb bike that has all the positive qualities of a 16 lb bike, in the end it's still heavier. I'd rather carry headlights, batteries, spares, fenders than an extra 4 lbs of frame.

BTW, one of the top Serotta dealers in the US confirmed that she completely agrees with my assessment of the Atlanta. See Shino, we aren't imagining it. Ben owes us an explanation I think.

[andy mac]

It's reall all about how fit you are at a given ride. If your not fit you are slow. Fit ...Fast..
I did a ride a few weeks ago after racing cross and I was climbing the fastest I had climbed all year, and I was using my more heavy wheels that I didn't think climbed very well. On that day those wheels worked great! I think the fitness is way more of an issue.



fitness, the new black!

[Tailwinds]

So what is it? I think it's a combination of weight and, more importantly, resilience. Something about the overall stiffness/harshness of the Atlanta in those heavy tubes transmitted every road imperfection into my feet, butt, hands, shoulders. The bike was fatiguing to ride. I don't think you can perform properly when you're being jackhammered. So there's my theory. If you don't sacrifice too many good qualities of a frame by "overbuilding" it, then weight is probably not super important.


I found it interesting that when I rode up my favorite climb on my new Kirk, my time was faster than any I'd done this year. I hadn't been doing much climbing lately, so I know it wasn't my fitness. And no, I wasn't just "well-rested." I'd say I was slightly out-of-shape for climbing, even. My Litespeed Ultimate weighs about 1-2 lbs. less and has wheels that weigh about 3/4 lb. less than what I was riding on my Kirk, but the Litespeed has the "jackhammer" effect that you described. Yes, how can you be efficient when you're being beat up?!

Also, I never got the shoulder/neck pain on the Kirk that I get on the Litespeed after long rides, and my three points in space were set up the same way on both bikes.

[shinomaster]

I always thought the atlanta was Harsh riding for a steel bike.

[e-RICHIE]

I found it interesting that when I rode up my favorite climb on my new Kirk, my time was faster than any I'd done this year. My Litespeed Ultimate weighs about 1-2 lbs. less and has wheels that weigh about 3/4 lb. less than what I was riding on my Kirk, but the Litespeed has the "jackhammer" effect that you described. Yes, how can you be efficient when you're being beat up?!
bravo - attaboy. amen, bro imho.
Also, I never got the shoulder/neck pain on the Kirk that I get on the Litespeed after long rides, and my three points in space were set up the same way on both bikes.
like "weight", fit is part of the equation. a well balanced bicycle is as well. it sounds like you're lacking that gestalt thang. bananas!

[shinomaster]

It can't be the bike.. The guy who won the 35-40 cross race at Nationals last week (Vanilla boy) used to race an Atlanta, and WIN a lot of hilly races and crits on his...So clearly we are the problem

[fstrthnu]

plus you'll get to the top MUCH faster than guys riding 20 lbs bikes. :banana: :D :p :beer:

IMHO unless your riding it Bro!
Cheers!!!!!!!!

[Serpico]

cheers bro, but imho I gotta let the mt. dew and bad food go

counting grams on bottom brackets and derailleurs is silly for a dude my size--fo sho

[fstrthnu]

cheers bro, but imho I gotta let the mt. dew and bad food go

counting grams on bottom brackets and derailleurs is silly for a dude my size--fo sho

Word On. You just figured it All out Yo. IMHO Bro... IMHO.

[Dr. Doofus]

Word On. You just figured it All out Yo. IMHO Bro... IMHO.

f'rizzle my fizzle

yo serpico

try out the D-Unit's weekend program too:

Sat: AM -- 1:30 endurance
PM -- 1:30 with :35 tempo

Sun: AM -- 1:00 with 7 "stomps"
PM -- 1:30 with 3 x 10 MT

you can do it

just chill a lot off the bike

[YO!!!]

The color of one's frame is far more important than what it ways.

Bright colors create faster rigs.

RED RULES !!!!

[Dr. Doofus]

BLUE

[Tailwinds]

I'll happily ride my 1-2-pounds-heavier ORANGE bike up these mountains again -- in a little over a MONTH!!! :banana:

[rpm]

It's not about the physics. The effect is all psychological. If you think your 15 lb bike is faster than your 18 lb bike, it will be. And if you think your 20 lb bike is an anchor, it will be.

Why? Because your perception determines your effort. The same thing applies to the trivial wind-reducing effects of aero wheels.

[Fixed]

bro Ive got soul machine purple cheers :beer:

[Tailwinds]

If you think your 15 lb bike is faster than your 18 lb bike, it will be. And if you think your 20 lb bike is an anchor, it will be.

Why? Because your perception determines your effort.

Actually, I thought my heavier bike might be a little slower going up the climbs. The Kirk proved me wrong. :D

[Lost Weekend]

Yes, the PLACEBO effect. It's strong in the cycling world IMHO

[YO!!!]

Yellow for uphill...grey for decending...red on the flats !!!!

[bluesea]

What about carrying bikes up and down the stairs? Will a 16 pounder give me a quicker elasped time over my 20 pounder? Or should I invest in lighter cycling shoes? The shoes are unsprung weight right?

[Tailwinds]

My multi-purpose bike does all three to perfection! :beer:

UPHILL

DESCENDING

FLATS

[David Kirk]

OK........but seriously folks..........there was a joke about shoes. Shoes are one the easiest places to knock off a good chunk of weight that will make a difference to everyone.

Ever put on a pair of heavy hiking boots and try to sprint the 100m dash? Not so good. That's why track runners use what are nearly ballet shoes for that purpose.

Try a good pair of very light shoes and they will (as long as they fit well) rock yo world. Really they will.

Dave

[ergott]

The color of one's frame is far more important than what it ways.

Bright colors create faster rigs.

RED RULES !!!!

Actually, black is the fastest colour. It heats up the air surrounding the bike and therefore decreases your drag coefficient. Be sure to wear an all black skinsuit for full benefit.

[Ginger]

Mr. Kirk...I was thinking that those must be awfully skinny water bottles you've been tying to your wheels to check out the weight difference at different places on the bike...

Otherwise they might look like a squirrel when you're done.

[CalfeeFly]

To those who feel weight does not make it a difference you probably live in the "flatlands" or don't ride where the conditions are such you would notice the difference. When climbing hills for example it is easy to tell the difference. In climbing you are overcoming gravity. When the bike weighs more you have to overcome more gravity.

How can I prove it? Right after getting back on the road after most of 3 months in bed I was riding to rehab. The back street I was taking has one block that is very steep as opposed to plain old steep. I was riding my heaviest bike. On the back I had a rack and on it a Kryptonite NY Chain Lock. The day before I had gone up the same hill on my "heavy" Calfee with no problem at all. (I have two Calfee's.)

I got about 1/4 of a block and that was it. It was a no go. I dropped back to the street below. I took the NY Chain off of the bike and put it around my waist. I then in turn climbed the hill but not as easily as on the Calfee. (This bike is heavier.)

This provided me the answers to what is discussed over and over again.

1. It wasn't in my head.
2. Lighter performed better
3. More weight on me made a much smaller difference than on the bike.

Lastly to answer how much does weight matter to me when purchasing. I go as light as I can go without...

1. Compromising safety.
2. Compromising longevity.
3. Paying a ridiculous price for a small weight savings.

Happy Holidays! Safe riding. :bike:

[Big Dan]

I guess we got proof now.



:confused:

[vaxn8r]

It's not about the physics. The effect is all psychological. If you think your 15 lb bike is faster than your 18 lb bike, it will be. And if you think your 20 lb bike is an anchor, it will be.

Why? Because your perception determines your effort. The same thing applies to the trivial wind-reducing effects of aero wheels.
There you have it. We've been reduced to the effects of brain washing. If I'd only realized I could have been just as fast on a Sears Free Spirit with decent components and $600 paint job...I could have saved tens of thousands of dollars over the years.

I suspect Climb is somehow at fault here.

[Climb01742]

OK........but seriously folks..........there was a joke about shoes. Shoes are one the easiest places to knock off a good chunk of weight that will make a difference to everyone.

Ever put on a pair of heavy hiking boots and try to sprint the 100m dash? Not so good. That's why track runners use what are nearly ballet shoes for that purpose.

Try a good pair of very light shoes and they will (as long as they fit well) rock yo world. Really they will.

Dave

but dave, everybody knows weight is meaningless. :D

but seriously...every few months this issue comes up. and the "discussion" winds up in the same place. but as your hiking boot example points out, i think, the reality is someplace in the middle: weight matters. fit matters. design (of the boot) matters. terrain you're hiking on matters. size and strength and fitness of the hiker matters. a bunch of things matter. no one ever said weight matters MOST. but within a whole bunch of things that matter, that affect how a boot (or bike) performs, weight is in there somewhere. for some riders, it matters more. for some, less. and that ain't dillusional. unless you have dillusions of being omniscient.

[Ray]

What about carrying bikes up and down the stairs? Will a 16 pounder give me a quicker elasped time over my 20 pounder?
My around town / errand / multi-mode travel / travel bike is a Brompton folder. They recently came out with a bunch of titanium frame parts and one and two speed options (with no three-speed hub) to lighten the bikes. Nobody really cares much about what these puppies weigh in terms of riding them, but they get carried up and down lots of flights of stairs and on and off lots of trains and busses. The carrying weight for the daily commuter is the primary reason for the weight reduction, not riding speed. Mine doesn't have any of the lightweight options and, at 25 pounds or so, it's a bit of a beast to carry, but fun to ride.

-Ray

[weisan]

Did someone mentioned "Sears" earlier? Was that you Vax-pal?

I was passed on a hill yesterday by a boy...ok, ok...a young man in his early twenties and he's riding on one of these..what-they-call-it? Sears "sunday driver" ...I kid you NOT! He even had one pannier at the back of his rack...yes, it's probably fixed gear or single speed, but how much does this thing weigh, any guess anyone? ...maybe I am not in my full throttle still recovering from a bad flu two days ago...but passed up by one of these!!!??? ok, the truth of the matter is...I was riding my 20.5 Ibs lugged steel....wait a minute, I always thought it climbs better than the 17.5 magic Ti.

The most magical part of the experience is not so much that I was humbled by the vigor of youth but rather this chap was wearing nothing but just baggy shorts and a t-shirt. As for me, and for everybody I have met on the road so far, we are all wrapped up like cocoons. The temps was in the low 50s. As he passes me, I caught up and stayed with him for maybe 45 seconds, enough to pop the dumb question: Are you NOT COLD!?!? He looked back at me, between his red chubby cheeks shot back...."What do you mean? It's HOT out here!" I thought to myself: @#(*@!#*)...what nonsense kids these days and thinking of offering up the nice and warm Hincapie-Serotta USPS Masters windjacket I am wearing (thanks former Serotta@Matt!) but my own survival got the better of me :D another followup question, "Where you headin?"...an echo comes back, as I have a hard time keeping up with him on the climb, "to downtown Austin!"...Whoa! That's like another 10~15 miles ahead of him, he's goin' freeze to death! He drifted away...I think I just witnessed true greatness...Not in that boy but in this piece of heavy metal they called Sears "sunday driver"...

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2005/nov/DavidDiesing-3.jpg

[ergott]

In order of importance if you want to go fast.

1 Rider fitness
2 Rider position
3 Rider weight
4 Bicycle aerodynamics
5 Bicycle rotational weight
6 Bicycle stationary weight

Losing a pound of stationary weight off the bike is losing about .3 - .7% of the total package. If you were pedaling up a straight vertical (impossible, i know), you would be .3 - .5% faster. There is nothing wrong with a trophy light bike, but if winning your favorite club races is your goal, there are other priorities.

[Fixed]

bro weisan a great story and a cool bike your the man as always cheers merry christmas :beer: :fight: :beer:

[flydhest]

but dave, everybody knows weight is meaningless. :D

but seriously...every few months this issue comes up. and the "discussion" winds up in the same place. but as your hiking boot example points out, i think, the reality is someplace in the middle: weight matters. fit matters. design (of the boot) matters. terrain you're hiking on matters. size and strength and fitness of the hiker matters. a bunch of things matter. no one ever said weight matters MOST. but within a whole bunch of things that matter, that affect how a boot (or bike) performs, weight is in there somewhere. for some riders, it matters more. for some, less. and that ain't dillusional. unless you have dillusions of being omniscient.

Climb's point is undoubtedly true. Weight matters. It is impossible to imagine that it has literally zero effect. So many people are talking about how they "feel" about weight. If that's what matters, then fine; indeed, it was what the OP brought up. However, the discussion was going past that. Keno posted info to let you figure out how much weight matters. Climb is right, the effect is not zero. It can't be. The effect can, however, be calculated. Keno's posting does it analytically, Kirk, richie, and . . . ooh, I forgot the other person who posted it, have an experimental way of doing it. The result is that (shock and horror) climb and richie actually agree. Weight matters. It does not have a zero effect on things. Somewhere between not mattering at all and mattering completely. That "somewhere" however, is right next to nothing.

We're all entitled to our own opinions, we're not entitled to our own facts (or physics).

[dbrk]

but dave, everybody knows weight is meaningless. :D
... for some riders, it matters more. for some, less. and that ain't dillusional. unless you have dillusions of being omniscient.

Weight "matters" only if you care that it does. Of all the many considerations I take in when building a bike, the weight of a part or the frame never comes into play. My reasoning is this: It's not like I'm riding junk, so what a frame weighs is what it is supposed to; what parts weigh is what they do with respect to their function. For criteria I think about function, aesthetics, proven reliability, and purpose but never weight. Of course, if you think weight matters to you, then it does.

I'll go away again now, being the fly in the oinment just makes for a messy oinment and a dead fly.

dbrk

[Ken Lehner]

"The big advantage of lightness happens in long hill or mountain climbs.
Yes, even one pound makes a big time difference."(quote)





ok, fess up. how much time diff does a pound or 2 really make??? statisticians please...

Losing .5kg will save you :18 climbing Alpe d'Huez @250W (7%grade, 14km, 75kg bike and rider). Whoop-de-doo.

[keno]

ooh la la for guys named Ivan and Jan.

keno

[Climb01742]

Weight "matters" only if you care that it does. Of all the many considerations I take in when building a bike, the weight of a part or the frame never comes into play. My reasoning is this: It's not like I'm riding junk, so what a frame weighs is what it is supposed to; what parts weigh is what they do with respect to their function. For criteria I think about function, aesthetics, proven reliability, and purpose but never weight. Of course, if you think weight matters to you, then it does.

I'll go away again now, being the fly in the oinment just makes for a messy oinment and a dead fly.

dbrk

douglas, your post more eloquently makes my point (as does fly's): each of us has things that matter to us, for real or imagined reasons, and each of us has a glorious right to care about lugs or grams without being dismissed as "dillusional".

[e-RICHIE]

douglas, your post more eloquently makes my point (as does fly's): each of us has things that matter to us, for real or imagined reasons, and each of us has a glorious right to care about lugs or grams without being dismissed as "dillusional".

i think the reference to "...dillusional" was not
about whether weight mattered but whether
you could feel the difference in theses 2 pounds
of stationary weight using the example (two
exact bicycles - one with 2 filled bottles, one
without) mentioned.

for the record, i never posted as to whether or
not the avoirdupois mattered, only that you
cannot feel the difference if it's only 2 pounds
of stationary weight when all the other variables
are fixed cheers imho bro...

let's not turn this into a thread about what each
of us has a right to glorify nor what we have a
glorius right to care about. otay?!

[Fixed]

bro to me and I know I don't know very much it's do you want a really light bike that is cool right now and may last you 2 years and be out of date next year or one that is a little more solid and still be cool 10 years from now that is up to each one of us to decide and nobody said we could only own one bike we are all brothers i.m.h.o. cheers happy holidays :beer: :fight: :beer:

[Climb01742]

i think the reference to "...dillusional" was not
about whether weight mattered but whether
you could feel the difference in theses 2 pounds
of stationary weight using the example (two
exact bicycles - one with 2 filled bottles, one
without) mentioned.

for the record, i never posted as to whether or
not the avoirdupois mattered, only that you
cannot feel the difference if it's only 2 pounds
of stationary weight when all the other variables
are fixed cheers imho bro...

let's not turn this into a thread about what each
of us has a right to glorify nor what we have a
glorius right to care about. otay?!

you arbitarily chose 2 pounds as the "test". i never mentioned 2 pounds. i said climbing on a 16 lbs bike felt different than climbing on my mxl. so you're telling me i can't feel that difference? and you chose the word "dillisional", which is both inaccurate and dismissive, as you most always are with anyone who dares disagree with you. and i chose not to take it.

[e-RICHIE]

you arbitarily chose 2 pounds as the "test". i never mentioned 2 pounds. i said climbing on a 16 lbs bike felt different than climbing on my mxl. so you're telling me i can't feel that difference? and you chose the word "dillisional", which is both inaccurate and dismissive, as you most always are with anyone who dares disagree with you. and i chose not to take it.



my post:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=150965&postcount=41
was conciliatory towards you.
my other post:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=150998&postcount=51
was a general comment, not a reply to you. but...

can you tell if your 16 pound bicycle has
2 full or 2 empty water bottles in their cages?

[zap]

snipped

We're all entitled to our own opinions, we're not entitled to our own facts (or physics).

My vote for 2005 Serotta Forum Academy Awards (tm) statement of the year.


:beer:

[Fixed]

snipped



My vote for 2005 Serotta Forum Academy Awards (tm) statement of the year.


:beer:bro fly is one smart cat i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[shaq-d]

it's all...


in your heaadddd ... in your HEEAAADDD
zooombie zoombie zoombbieee

oh oh o o o o

[Climb01742]

can you tell if your 16 pound bicycle has
2 full or 2 empty water bottles in their cages?

i've never tried that experiment. i have however, tried this experiment: rode the exact same hill repeat 6 times, in this order: mxl, parlee, mxl, parlee, mxl, parlee. and i felt a difference. as someone who loves to climb, i'm curious about things like this, and i wanted to test it. again, i know that a number of variables were involved, but based on what i felt, weight had an impact. it was fun experimenting (and tiring.)

[e-RICHIE]

i've never tried that experiment. i have however, tried this experiment: rode the exact same hill repeat 6 times, in this order: mxl, parlee, mxl, parlee, mxl, parlee. and i felt a difference. as someone who loves to climb, i'm curious about things like this, and i wanted to test it. again, i know that a number of variables were involved, but based on what i felt, weight had an impact. it was fun experimenting (and tiring.)


redux:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=150965&postcount=41

[Climb01742]

richie, i'm curious...why take such exception when i say weight matters on a bike...yet you don't take exception when david kirk says weight matters with hiking boots? :confused:

[andy mac]

can we all go and address some real issues/problems.

happy holidays!

xoxox

andy

[e-RICHIE]

richie, i'm curious...why take such exception when i say weight matters on a bike...yet you don't take exception when david kirk says weight matters with hiking boots? :confused:


1) i never said weight didn't matter, or did i?
2) dave's post was like mine; he used boots
as a rotating weight example of how one could
possibly tell the difference, i used water bottles
an stationary weight example of how i believe
that the errant 2 pounds could not be discerned.

[Fixed]

bro one of the best racers in fla rides a steel torelli with a steel fork but uses corima carbon wheels for race day a great sprinter i.m.h.o. cheers :beer p.s.: but he is the only top cat who rides on steel that i know of

[Big Dan]

Bro, I don't think the Parlee vs MXL comparison is fair.
There's more to the MXL not liking to go uphill than just weight.
IMHO there's got to be more than 2 pounds difference between them.
Personally I don't think I could tell between a 17 pound bike and a 19 pound one.
I probably could tell between a 16 pounder and a 22 pounder.... :p


:fight:

[Climb01742]

no one could agree more than me that this whole issue is, indeed, pointless. my point in continuing the dialogue is about a different issue: the line between opinion and fact. 99.9% of what is said here is opinion. my back gets up when someone's opinion or personal experience is dismissed. any opinion can be disagreed with. but dismissing a forum member's opinion or experience is disrespectful and, IMO, ultimately counter to the spirit of this forum.

an example of someone who strikes the ideal balance: douglas is a man of strong opinion. but he never states his opinion as fact. nor does he ever belittle the opinion of others. civility requires, i believe, drawing a fine line: a passionate expression of one's opinion that doesn't cross over into belittling others. weight on a bike is of zero importance in the long run. civility on this forum is far more important, IMO.

[Fixed]

:fight:
climb .. . e-RICHIE both you guys are great dudes i.m.h.o this makes the forum fun bro cheers :beer:

[Tailwinds]

bro one of the best racers in fla rides a steel torelli with a steel fork but uses corima carbon wheels for race day a great sprinter i.m.h.o. cheers :beer p.s.: but he is the only top cat who rides on steel that i know of

Are you referring to my old teammate Chuck Jerabek? The weight doesn't seem to matter at the level he rides... stompin' all the guys 10+ yrs. younger, too. He's got the legs AND the smarts.

[weisan]

an example of someone who strikes the ideal balance: douglas is a man of strong opinion. but he never states his opinion as fact. nor does he ever belittle the opinion of others.
He learned it...the hard way. We all do and ultimately will.

[Fixed]

sis that sure enough be him cheers :beer: merry christmas

[e-RICHIE]

no one could agree more than me that this whole issue is, indeed, pointless. my point in continuing the dialogue is about a different issue: the line between opinion and fact. 99.9% of what is said here is opinion. my back gets up when someone's opinion or personal experience is dismissed. any opinion can be disagreed with. but dismissing a forum member's opinion or experience is disrespectful and, IMO, ultimately counter to the spirit of this forum.

an example of someone who strikes the ideal balance: douglas is a man of strong opinion. but he never states his opinion as fact. nor does he ever belittle the opinion of others. civility requires, i believe, drawing a fine line: a passionate expression of one's opinion that doesn't cross over into belittling others. weight on a bike is of zero importance in the long run. civility on this forum is far more important, IMO.



james - let's stay on track. my posts are not replies to
you; they're part of the thread. i don't personalize this
at all. i do stand behind my comment about weight issues,
not the weight issues that you note about the feelings
that matter to you when you ride one or many of your
different bicycles up and down the hills in fixed order,
but the weight issues that relate to stationary differences
in like-equipped bicycles. i believe this to be the extent
of my participation in this thread.

[rphetteplace]

weight does definately play a factor in stuff I buy. I look at it and say "ooh that's too light my fat arse will snap that seatpost in about 15 minutes" I got no need for carbon, slimfast maybe :)

[Headwinds]

I think weight plays about 30-40% of my decision making when buying bike stuff.

But at this writer's stage and age it is not abosute! Let me give you one example: When the Fizik Arione saddle came out, I said, "Darn, heavy sucker!" I was using a Fizik Aliante carbon everything, then. But the Arione proved to be more dynamic and comfortable, so I put the weight issue aside. The rest goes for other items. I would not trade certain group parts, the tried and well tested parts like brake calipers, levers, etc. for the light stuff...

This is not to say that I would not be open to test things out, especially if I get a deal on the item.

I don't necesarily agree with Serpico's:

...(pay more for less durable components, whose weight savings would only benefit someone at 10%- body weight who is competing professionally)....

Why? Because I have had a few items that ARE lighter than the heavy stuff, and the light stuff has out lasted the heavy stuff. AND, I think light stuff, not only benefits "someone at 10%- body weight who is competing...."

Cheers!

[e-RICHIE]

I think weight plays about 30-40% of my decision making when buying bike stuff.

But at this writer's stage and age it is not abosute! Let me give you one example: When the Fizik Arione saddle came out, I said, "Darn, heavy sucker!" I was using a Fizik Aliante carbon everything, then. But the Arione proved to be more dynamic and comfortable, so I put the weight issue aside. The rest goes for other items. I would not trade certain group parts, the tried and well tested parts like brake calipers levers, etc. for the light stuff...

This is not to say that I would not be open to test things out, especially if I get a deal on the item.

I don't necesarily agree with Serpico's:



Why? Because I have had a few items that ARE lighter than the heavy stuff, and have out lasted the heavy stuff. And I think light stuff, not only benefits "someone at 10%- body weight who is competing...."

Cheers!


there are weight issues that are tangential to durability
concerns, and weight issues that affect how a bicycle feels.
imo, rotating weight affects "feel", while stationary weight
doesn't. results may vary.

[OldDog]

Good grief. It must be winter. 127 posts over 8 pages on the subject of weight.

Pass the cheese and crackers, pepperoni and the bottle of red. I'm going to the garage to polish my spokes.

I have a doctors appointment this afternoon (he's a rider). I wore my lightest shoes, khakies instead of jeans. I'll take my wallet, pocket knife and chnage out of my pocket and leave my watch in the truck. I even shaved to lose a few grams. He will still tell me I'm too fat, and I will say it's OK, Santa is bringing carbon Neutrons and weighed together me and my bike will be a 10th of a pound lighter. He'll tell me if I lost 10 pounds I would'nt need those wheels.

Pass the munchies again please.

[Ken Lehner]

no one could agree more than me that this whole issue is, indeed, pointless. my point in continuing the dialogue is about a different issue: the line between opinion and fact. 99.9% of what is said here is opinion. my back gets up when someone's opinion or personal experience is dismissed. any opinion can be disagreed with. but dismissing a forum member's opinion or experience is disrespectful and, IMO, ultimately counter to the spirit of this forum.


When said opinion flies in the face of physics, it should be called into question.

In this case, unless your two bikes are identical in every regard, you can't determine the underlying cause for why you feel they climb differently to be the weight difference. You can suspect that it is so, but you should be prepared to reject that hypothesis when the physics show that the small weight difference is lost in the noise of the whole bike-rider system.

I don't think this discussion is pointless, as it indeed exposes that the emperor has no clothes in much of bicycle marketing. The more people understand the physics of bicycling, the better they'll be as consumers, and eventually the better will be the products.

[weisan]

The volume is up again (thanks Ken!).

Ladies and gentleman, please calibrate your settings to the appropriate level.

[ergott]

Instead of this thread getting ugly, may I make a suggestion? Try the same experiment you did before except use the same bike and alternate between having full bottles and empty cages.

I see this exchange as:
"The sky is blue"
"No, the grass is green"

Your experiment does not work for or against e-Ritchie's statement because you measured something different.

[andy mac]

Instead of this thread getting ugly, may I make a suggestion? Try the same experiment you did before except use the same bike and alternate between having full bottles and empty cages.

I see this exchange as:
"The sky is blue"
"No, the grass is green"

Your experiment does not work for or against e-Ritchie's statement because you measured something different.



sometimes the answer is so simple it hurts. congrats.



(2 extra pounds, much easier to id in my cheeseburger than on the fiets.)

[flydhest]

Instead of this thread getting ugly, may I make a suggestion? Try the same experiment you did before except use the same bike and alternate between having full bottles and empty cages.

I see this exchange as:
"The sky is blue"
"No, the grass is green"

Your experiment does not work for or against e-Ritchie's statement because you measured something different.

You moron, during a storm, the sky is grey, and in the winter, the grass is brown.

Now, let's you and me have a fight. :fight:

[Fixed]

bro i know my old millie is not as good a steel bike as what you cats have col s.l. tubing and old parts that i put together with t.l.c. weight I don't know I guess around 20 pounds but i still ride with the top guys around here last week end I tried a orbea and found it to be just a little easier to jump and close gaps not a lot but there that is why i'm going to try a cadd7 this year but I still love my old bike cos it's part of who i am i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[shinomaster]

Anyway. I think a light bike gives one a false sense of fitness. I can leave my house on my cannondale and feel super fast for a few blocks..but then if I'm out of shape it's painfully obvious on the next hill. If I was super fit as I was a month ago It does help performance maybe a bit, over my Atlanta.

Light weight can't be all marketing...I mean it started with racers in the 70's drilling out their parts to make them lighter. We have been on this same quest for decades...modern technology just makes if possible now.

[1centaur]

I'll "weigh" in on Climb's side one more time just to balance it out a tiny bit. Can I feel the difference between water bottles or not on a bike? Easily, but only on hills and not constantly, yet sometimes vividly and in a way I enjoy and will pay for, to answer the OP's question.

And, again, for me the issue is not how many seconds I can save on Alpe d'Huez assuming constant (non-human) power output. For me, it's the occasional effect on a repeatedly stressed muscle on a day when I am not at my strongest or due to ride length when I am weakening, and the last few climbs on a frequent route are surprisingly easier on a lighter bike than I know them to be on a heavier bike in the same condition. When you ride the same routes again and again on different days on different bikes over a fairly long period, the "delusional" possibilities can be at least reduced and patterns start to make sense. If I am on a lighter bike, perhaps I relax a little and slow down because I don't have to push as hard to maintain the speed I would like to on any given section, and perhaps I believe in myself a little more because I'm getting somewhere with lower perceived effort and then I speed up. Weight differences of a pound or two show themselves to me from time to time, not constantly. If that perception is delusional, then not only I but all of us are delusional about many things most of the time. Based on some of the comments I read in bike forums, that's not beyond the realm of possibility.

[Serpico]

snipped



My vote for 2005 Serotta Forum Academy Awards (tm) statement of the year.


:beer:


I believe that's a quote from the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, minus the "physics" part.

Great quote, imho.

[ergott]

You moron, during a storm, the sky is grey, and in the winter, the grass is brown.

Now, let's you and me have a fight. :fight:


3:00 at the flagpole!
:fight:

[weisan]

3:00 at the flagpole!
:fight:

Let's do it on his birthday. I will hide behind the pole.

[Grant McLean]

Here's another way of looking at the priority of weight...

To make your bike lighter, just do the following:
1) Take off your front brake and lever
2) Remove inner chainring and front derailleur
3) Eliminate half spokes in front wheel
4) Toss out saddle and post
5) Remove left crank and Pedal

All these things will make your bike lighter, and come with an
increasingly difficult trade-off to get lighter weight.

The process is the same for the product designers at the bike companies.
Just how light does it make sense to make certain parts, like a stem?
The "cost" of saving a few grams becomes too great at some point.

It's just about priority. How much cost, safety, lack of convenience
are you willing to put up with to save weight?

Obviously, every individual will come to a different conclusion, based on their own good reasons.

_Gee

[Dr. Doofus]

eat a lower fiber diet

that two pounds of **** in your lower colon is slowing your down

[cpg]

This is boring.

Curt

[flydhest]

one of my favorite parts of the Daily Show is when they have transcripts from political debates, either pundits or politicians themselves, being read by a couple of 8 year olds. Anybody ever seen that?

[rphetteplace]

eat a lower fiber diet

that two pounds of **** in your lower colon is slowing your down

wouldn't that be a higher fiber diet? jeez :rolleyes:

[jerk]

the jerk's ending this discussion right here.

when it comes to designing and building a racing bicycle everything matters.

jerk

[znfdl]

For me a bottle of red always wins out....

Have a good weekend. PETE

I hope that it is a good bottle of Zinfandel :cool:

[Serpico]

the jerk's ending this discussion right here.

when it comes to designing and building a racing bicycle everything matters.

jerk



The thread is dead, long live the thread!

[Climb01742]

i'm stubborn. apologies for inflicting it on you. :beer:

[keno]

an article in my college humor magazine entitled "The Myth Of The Male Orgasm."

keno

[William]

Hey guys, I just got here. What did I miss???




William ;)

[bluesea]

Hey guys, I just got here. What did I miss???




William ;)

Its okay to ride with your water bottles empty...or full. Your choice.

[William]

Its okay to ride with your water bottles empty...or full. Your choice.

How about one empty, one full? Or one half full, the other half empty???




William :rolleyes:

[gary135r]

How about one empty, one full? Or one half full, the other half empty???




William :rolleyes:
is a water bottle heavier half full or half empty?

[Dr. Doofus]

if a bear pees in my water bottle in the woods and there is nobody there to see it does it create a significant weight penalty?

[IXXI]

gawd am i outta shape for these kinds of posts... holy ocd batman.

[Frankwurst]

Good grief. It must be winter. 127 posts over 8 pages on the subject of weight.

Pass the cheese and crackers, pepperoni and the bottle of red. I'm going to the garage to polish my spokes.

I have a doctors appointment this afternoon (he's a rider). I wore my lightest shoes, khakies instead of jeans. I'll take my wallet, pocket knife and chnage out of my pocket and leave my watch in the truck. I even shaved to lose a few grams. He will still tell me I'm too fat, and I will say it's OK, Santa is bringing carbon Neutrons and weighed together me and my bike will be a 10th of a pound lighter. He'll tell me if I lost 10 pounds I would'nt need those wheels.

Pass the munchies again please.

Amen :beer:

[ergott]

Come on, we can't really be done with this, can we?

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/137318-dead_horse_anim.gif

We must have missed something! Only 152 (now 153) posts!

http://users.zoominternet.net/~gtrage/dead%20horse.jpg

[vaxn8r]

I love it how people say "just lose 5 lbs." Uh, for some that's not so easy. Not as easy as losing 4-5 lbs off frame/component weight. That only takes money. Besides what if you're already lean?

What about losing a water bottle or two? Well, that's fine, you could choose to ride with 4 bottles (1.8 lbs per bottle) if you like and I'll keep my two thanks very much.

How about the thought, "well, you don't race in Europe so it doesn't matter what your bike weighs". Who appointed somebody the bike czar to decide how competitive I ought to be? By that logic none of us deserve to be on any of these bikes, heavy or light. How do you draw the line on what's appropriate for someone else?

I don't get the logic on this thread. If all things being equal (performance, cost, quality) why would you not want a lighter bike? I gotta wonder about some of you guys. Well, let me think, I want to spend 5 g's on an Ottrott but see if Ben can add a couple a extra el-bees on there because I think heavy bikes ride better? Somehow I doubt he hears that very often.

I don't think weight is the end-all in bike performance but light bikes sometimes kick a$$. Depends who's doing the torching...or gluing. Same for "heavy" bikes. Here's the deal, let's start a thread about all the advantages of heavy bikes and I promise not to make sarcastic comments to anyone who posts....maybe. :)

[e-RICHIE]

If all things being equal (performance, cost, quality) why would you not want a lighter bike?


it depends on how the weight savings were achieved.
is the net gain safe? safe under certain conditions?
cost effective? easily serviced? it's not possible to
generalize about a bicycle's weight unless you know
what's where.

[Ginger]

Ah Vax, but then you go back to the possible intent of Serpico's original post, that encompassed all the happy discussions in this thread:



"I am about to be purchasing the gruppo for my new rig. I am trying to decide between record with carbon crank or chorus with alloy.

I'm leaning towards chorus with alloy because the difference between the two choices above is a bit more than half a pound--not much imho--especially when I could lose it in (body) weight so easily. Also, not sure about all that plastic."



Discussion is healthy. And this is the standard winter thread.

[ergott]

After using:
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

I figured my PB output up MW was 240W for 1:42 (time, weight and slope was known). I had a 16.5lb bike (I factered in 1.5lbs for fluids which is the average of two full bottles and empty bottles). If I had an 18lb bike (19.5 average), it would have taken me over a minute longer. As Climbo can attest to, that's one minute too many. On a climb like that, I guess weight makes a difference!!

:banana: :banana:

[vaxn8r]

it depends on how the weight savings were achieved.
is the net gain safe? safe under certain conditions?
cost effective? easily serviced? it's not possible to
generalize about a bicycle's weight unless you know
what's where.
Generalize? People in the Serotta forum? No way man. Can't be.

[Redturbo]

When coming up on the final sprint during a race and I have lots left in my water bottles I'll eject them. So I guess I care about weight. Some guys don't get rid of their bottles. So I guess they don't care about weight. Sometimes they beat me and sometimes I beat them. Go figure :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

When coming up on the final sprint during a race and I have lots left in my water bottles I'll eject them. So I guess I care about weight. Some guys don't get rid of their bottles. So I guess they don't care about weight. Sometimes they beat me and sometimes I beat them. Go figure :beer:



toss em -
don't worry, we'll make more.

[Redturbo]

toss em -
don't worry, we'll make more.

Of course I go back and pick them up :D

[Grant McLean]

When coming up on the final sprint during a race and I have lots left in my water bottles I'll eject them. So I guess I care about weight. Some guys don't get rid of their bottles. So I guess they don't care about weight. Sometimes they beat me and sometimes I beat them. Go figure :beer:


Hey Turbo,

Toss those bottle North, preferably still in their cages....

_gee

[Serpico]

My point was to specifically ask how much of a factor does weight play? It plays some part for everyone.

My goal wasn't to start a 'shimano v campy' type thread, or to 'beat a dead horse'--I just wanted to know how people make choices when choosing components.

I just switched from a ti rail arione to a b17 champion special, the new saddle weighs 2 1/2 times as much. I thought of giving that weight back by using a carbon crank instead of alloy. For a person my size, clyde+ (right now ;) ), it really doesn't make sense--but it still nags me.


I was more interested in price per gram (saved). Some products are 100$ more and save 50g over the lower product. Some products are 400$ more and save 80g over the lower product.

I was just wondering how people made choices between weight v $$$$, nothing more. :)

Sometimes it's not a matter of "Can I afford this?" but rather "Hmm, I think it might be silly to pay this much."

Apologize if you guys/gals have had weight discussions before--I just want to know HOW you make those decisions.

[Ray]

I was more interested in price per gram (saved). Some products are 100$ more and save 50g over the lower product. Some products are 400$ more and save 80g over the lower product.

I was just wondering how people made choices between weight v $$$$, nothing more. :)

Sometimes it's not a matter of "Can I afford this?" but rather "Hmm, I think it might be silly to pay this much."

Apologize if you guys/gals have had weight discussions before--I just want to know HOW you make those decisions.
Ahhhhh, specifics! I think that generally the weight weenie test of cost-effectiveness has been about a buck a gram, so your two hypotheticals are too expensive for the weight saved. OTOH, I've been seeing this buck-a-gram figure for several years now, so perhaps it needs to be adjusted for gear inflation.

Even a buck a gram is generally too much for my blood. Except for wheels, I don't think about weight until the bike's built, and then I'm sometimes curious enough to weigh it, sometimes not. But I'll go a bit out of my way to have a 1400-1500 gram wheelset rather than a 1700-1800.

-Ray

[Climb01742]

I love it how people say "just lose 5 lbs." Uh, for some that's not so easy. Not as easy as losing 4-5 lbs off frame/component weight. That only takes money. Besides what if you're already lean?

What about losing a water bottle or two? Well, that's fine, you could choose to ride with 4 bottles (1.8 lbs per bottle) if you like and I'll keep my two thanks very much.

How about the thought, "well, you don't race in Europe so it doesn't matter what your bike weighs". Who appointed somebody the bike czar to decide how competitive I ought to be? By that logic none of us deserve to be on any of these bikes, heavy or light. How do you draw the line on what's appropriate for someone else?

I don't get the logic on this thread. If all things being equal (performance, cost, quality) why would you not want a lighter bike? I gotta wonder about some of you guys. Well, let me think, I want to spend 5 g's on an Ottrott but see if Ben can add a couple a extra el-bees on there because I think heavy bikes ride better? Somehow I doubt he hears that very often.

I don't think weight is the end-all in bike performance but light bikes sometimes kick a$$. Depends who's doing the torching...or gluing. Same for "heavy" bikes. Here's the deal, let's start a thread about all the advantages of heavy bikes and I promise not to make sarcastic comments to anyone who posts....maybe. :)

vax, if we ever meet, the beers on me. (light beer, naturally.;) )

[Climb01742]

My point was to specifically ask how much of a factor does weight play? It plays some part for everyone.

My goal wasn't to start a 'shimano v campy' type thread, or to 'beat a dead horse'--I just wanted to know how people make choices when choosing components.

I just switched from a ti rail arione to a b17 champion special, the new saddle weighs 2 1/2 times as much. I thought of giving that weight back by using a carbon crank instead of alloy. For a person my size, clyde+ (right now ;) ), it really doesn't make sense--but it still nags me.


I was more interested in price per gram (saved). Some products are 100$ more and save 50g over the lower product. Some products are 400$ more and save 80g over the lower product.

I was just wondering how people made choices between weight v $$$$, nothing more. :)

Sometimes it's not a matter of "Can I afford this?" but rather "Hmm, I think it might be silly to pay this much."

Apologize if you guys/gals have had weight discussions before--I just want to know HOW you make those decisions.

an experience or two on "how": awhile back, i bought a pair of zipp carbon wheels. freaky light. on my parlee, the bike was 14 lbs. wow. but i didn't like how they rode. gonzo, replaced by nimble spider alu clinchers. much sweeter (but heavier) ride. and on some of my bikes i have a DA alu seatpost. heavier than some carbon posts but super easy to adjust, i like being able to clamp the post while servicing it on the stand, and there's something just a bit more comforting about tightening down an alu post. so there are certainly trade-offs. for me, 16 pounds is a safe, simple to achieve goal, with a good balance of trade-offs. (as an aside, my time vxrs is 15 lbs yet feels as solid, durable as can be; perhaps a testiment to time's integrated approach to building a frame/post/stem.) and at 5'11", 140 during the season, i've shaved just about all the grams off of me. ;)

[Climb01742]

After using:
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

I figured my PB output up MW was 240W for 1:42 (time, weight and slope was known). I had a 16.5lb bike (I factered in 1.5lbs for fluids which is the average of two full bottles and empty bottles). If I had an 18lb bike (19.5 average), it would have taken me over a minute longer. As Climbo can attest to, that's one minute too many. On a climb like that, I guess weight makes a difference!!

:banana: :banana:

speaking for myself, i can honestly say the weight of my bike was the least of my worries last august. my brain was by far the lightest (and least used) piece of equipment. :rolleyes: that said, if i ever do ride that damn rockpile intelligently, even a minute less on it will be sheer joy. turning over pedals has never felt so hard.

[george]

I believe the weight of the bike is critical if you race proffesionally where "every second counts" other wise it is almost trivial, especially in the 17-20 pound range.

[Larry]

My two bits worth..........
I have a feeling that my old F1 fork (heavy but rock solid)
will descend better than my current Ouzo Pro 1" carbon.
The Ouzo really has a nice light takeoff, and it seems like my
CSi is quicker overall. But, perhaps the F1 is more stable, and
I will find this out this spring.

Also, it just makes sense that a heavier bike will be more predictable and more stable than a super light DRECK (I mean Trek) on a fast downhill descent off of a mountaintop, especially if you catch an unexpected crosswind, which we all have. Really, to a novice rider, I would suggest a bike more in the 19 to 21 pound range. And, the wheels should be chosen for strength and stability. My old Campy Ventos were great and excelled in the cross winds.

Many variables......each rider must find the ideal combination.

[Erik.Lazdins]

2 scenarios both on a 4 mile climb at an average 7% (Talimena Scenic Drive)

Same bike

My weight on ride #1 - 190

My weight on ride #2 - 187 - Plus I felt stronger and planned to ride the climb faster than ride #1 but went 6 minutes slower

Ride #1 was at 55 degrees
Ride #2 was at 90 degrees and no wind in the sun

Weight doesn't matter nearly as much as temperature.

[shoe]

to me weight does matter. as far as - it seems i try to make my bikes as heavy as possible. i sit back and think hmmmm i like that part and it weighs significantly more than most...i'll take it.. i did notice my mtb weighs less than my road bike.since i don't ride with many people i don't know if i am fast or slow..but i do know that my bike isn't light...i do like the idea of having a light bike but i just don't know if i ever will...dave

[Larry]

2 scenarios both on a 4 mile climb at an average 7% (Talimena Scenic Drive)

Same bike

My weight on ride #1 - 190

My weight on ride #2 - 187 - Plus I felt stronger and planned to ride the climb faster than ride #1 but went 6 minutes slower

Ride #1 was at 55 degrees
Ride #2 was at 90 degrees and no wind in the sun

Weight doesn't matter nearly as much as temperature.

Yes....temperature makes a significant difference.
Also take note......heavier riders warm up and heat up faster than the skinny guys.
And.......humidity (heaviness of the air) makes a big difference in speed.
Lighter air (less humid) keeps the bike moving faster......does not bog you down.
Also.......air pollutants and poor quality of air slows you down.

But.....I feel that a 2 pound lighter bike on longish climbs with significant steepness makes a difference.
For most of us (within a reasonably close bike weight) it really comes down
to the engine and fitness level.

My CSi is about 19 pounds and 4 ounces. It is not the bike!!!!!

[Fixed]

bro it's the rider not the bike and that's a fact but you can only go so long if the rider is in pain .i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[asgelle]

Lighter air (less humid) keeps the bike moving faster......does not bog you down.
Lighter air = More humid

[manet]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=+tubes&word2=rods

[Samster]

I love it how people say "just lose 5 lbs."

it would be hard for me to lose 5 lbs.

[bironi]

somewhat.

[Larry]

Lighter air = More humid
asgelle,

Explain this, please.
This does not make sense to me.

Larry

[Fixed]

bro i.m.h.o. a bike's got to feel like you aren't goin to rip it apart when you work it out ,condidence helps make speed .most of us don't have a wrench check everything out after every ride to see how stuff is holding out .i like the solid feel of my all steel bike for everyday but on race day I take my light bike cos I have it .but if you sak me which bike i will have in 2 years ...my all steel bike in fact although it weighs 3 pounds more it is more aglie if that means anything cheers :beer:

[Ken Lehner]

asgelle,

Explain this, please.
This does not make sense to me.

Larry
Humidity and density are inversely proportional. The more humid, the less dense the air. Look up Avogadro, and use the fact that water molecules are lighter than nitrogen and oxygen molecules.

[bcm119]

Humidity and density are inversely proportional. The more humid, the less dense the air. Look up Avogadro, and use the fact that water molecules are lighter than nitrogen and oxygen molecules.

A good example of this is one of those god-awful days in New York when its 95% humidity, and then there is a thunderstorm and it clears off into a nice blue, dry day. Its the result of a summer "cold" front that is not necessarily colder, but just drier (and denser) air that dropped out of canada and pushed all the buoyant, humid air out of the way.