My next project: titanium vs steel

[tchapman]

I'm planning for my next project and have an interest in building up a titanium frameset. I'm looking for something that rides and responds like a Serotta Colorado III but won't be as compliant as an Ottrott... I've been thinking a Legend would fit the bill, but have been having a hard time finding one my size, I know there are other frame builders besides Serotta that build quality titanium frames, I'm just not familiar with them since most of my bikes are Serotta's. I'm interested in knowing what's comparable - I'm not a racer, I just like to ride fast responsive bikes... Thanks for any insight you might want to share!

[Black Dog]

It is all about design and not material, however, with that being said I would choose the material that you are least familiar with. Try something new.

[nbl78s]

A Ti Dean is nice ride

[Pete Mckeon]

is the builder to go to. He has built MANY STEEL< TI, AND TI/CARBON. AND THEY CAN RIDE LIKE CSI (HE AND DAVID KIRK, AND ELLIS HAVE ALSO BUILT THEM)> ALL THREE ARE EXCELLENT BUILDERS THAT I KNOW AND HAVE RIDDEN.:bike:

IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THEM THE WINE WILL BE ON ME. IF YOU LIKE THEM THE WINE CAN ALSO BE ON ME (RED NATURALLY):)

[jr59]

Well I will chip in here and say that I own an Ellis and a Ti Spectrum. They both are VERY nice and both my fav rides. They both ride GREAT, different, but great all the same! So much so that I ordered another from both builders.

Can't speak of Bedford, or Kirk but knowing some of the work they both have done, I have ZERO doubt they could build whatever you wished!

Good luck! Make sure you enjoy the process, it's fun!

[Bkat]

I think a lot of builders can make you a titanium bike you will love and be everything you expect a bike to be. From small companies like Seven, Moots or Independent Fabrication, to individuals like Kent Eriksen, Mike DeSalvo or Darren Crisp. (I'm sure others can add to this list.)

It's good to mix up your stable a bit, so find a couple names whose work speaks to you and talk to them. That should give you a pretty good idea who's a good fit.

[RedRider]

I second most of the earlier suggestions especially K. Bedford and add Alchemy which are handmade in Denver. In addition to custom & stock carbon they do titanium and stainless.

[tchapman]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate your comments!

[David Kirk]

How tall are you and what do you weigh?

dave

[eddief]

what might be the issue with the compliance of the O T R O? Is it a noodle?

My new Asian ti rides really well. Ya jump on it, it goes. But it does have this fine and subtle compliance over road noise. I just light enough to take off quickly. Dare I say, I am lovin it way more than hoped for. Somewhere nicely between smooth carbon and, in my case, seemingly less compliant and stiffer steel Curtlo.

Oops. I forgot that China was in the axis of evil.

[pbarry]

How tall are you and what do you weigh?

dave

Oh dread, a pertinent question. :eek: And the most important...

[PaMtbRider]

How tall are you and what do you weigh?

dave

I'm not the O.P. but if his answer is 6'3" and 175 lbs I would be really interested in your reply.

[exapkib]

You'll undoubtedly receive more knowledgeable responses than mine, but when you say the words "fast and responsive" my Yamaguchi immediately comes to mind.

yamaguchibike.com

Of course, we're all just looking for a chance to justify past decisions, etc., but honestly--I can't believe how differently the three bikes in my stable (Surly CrossCheck, CAAD9, Yamaguchi Road) ride, nor can I believe just how much I love riding the Yamaguchi. Geometry matters.

[tchapman]

I'm not the O.P. but if his answer is 6'3" and 175 lbs I would be really interested in your reply.

How tall are you and what do you weigh?

dave

6'2" and 200#

[cmg]

Kish and Caletti build with butted ti. My custom from Kish is built from oversized tubes. If you know the geometry that you need see if the serotta Pronto or Fondo will work.

[tigoat]

I would skip both and go stainless. There are so many builders in this industry nowadays that I would talk to as many as possible and go with the one that will tickle you the most.

[oldpotatoe]

I would skip both and go stainless. There are so many builders in this industry nowadays that I would talk to as many as possible and go with the one that will tickle you the most.

Stainless is cool and all but I had a Waterford one, beautiful but it rode like the R-22 I have now. I really don't understand the allure with stainless. Tube for tube, it will ride no different than non stainless and is often as expensive or more expensive than titanium..it can be pretty tho.

IMHO

[Bkat]

Stainless is cool and all but I had a Waterford one, beautiful but it rode like the R-22 I have now. I really don't understand the allure with stainless. Tube for tube, it will ride no different than non stainless and is often as expensive or more expensive than titanium..it can be pretty tho.

IMHO

I'll second that opinion. Had a stainless bike but didn't feel the ride was anything markedly better than my "normal" steel rides. Yes, the corrosion resistance is nice but heck, I can buy two Reynolds 853 frames for the price of one 953. And aren't two bikes better than one? ;)

[tigoat]

Stainless is cool and all but I had a Waterford one, beautiful but it rode like the R-22 I have now. I really don't understand the allure with stainless. Tube for tube, it will ride no different than non stainless and is often as expensive or more expensive than titanium..it can be pretty tho.

IMHO

You basically said it better than myself with the word COOL. Who cares about how it rides and what it will cost, as most high end custom metal bikes ride so similarily and they are all expensive, so to have something COOL would be the way to go, at least for me.

[tigoat]

I'll second that opinion. Had a stainless bike but didn't feel the ride was anything markedly better than my "normal" steel rides. Yes, the corrosion resistance is nice but heck, I can buy two Reynolds 853 frames for the price of one 953. And aren't two bikes better than one? ;)

Yeah whatever man!

[uber]

From what you have said, I would call Tom Kellogg of Spectrum. Tell him how you want the bike to ride and feel. Tom can do it in either steel or Ti and help guide you to a decision. Most stainless frames could feel and cost very close to titanium. I would have a tough time choosing between those two.

[David Kirk]

Here's my two cents -

I think Ti can make for very nice riding frame. I no longer work with Ti as I did during my Serotta days but I think for the right person Ti can be ideal.

That said I'm not sure I'd say you are the ideal person for Ti. I think that a person who is 5'3" and 125 pounds can have a Ti bike made and love it but at your size (or my size) I think the material is just not stiff enough for aggressive riding.

I of course know that one can use larger dia main triangle tubes with Ti and make up for the fact that it isn't as stiff as other materials and for the most part this works out pretty well. The place I've always felt it came up short was in the stiffness of the rear end and the c-stays specifically. The problem with c-stays is that their diameter, while not fixed, is pretty limited and it is just not possible to make a Ti c-stay as laterally stiff as a steel stay is. The space between the chain rings and the tire is limited and whatever c-stay used needs to fit in there and there just isn't that much room. One can of course make a tall oval but they aren't very stiff laterally (oval is in the wrong orientation for lateral stiffness) of the stay can have a pair of deep dents to make room for the tire and the rings but these act like hinges in a way and allow the stay to flex more in those spots..........largely negating the advantage of the larger dia c-stay.

There was a good thread on this way back when and Tom Kellogg and I talked a lot about stay stiffness, size constraints, and material. It was interesting stuff I think and covers the topic pretty well. Anyone know how to find that thread?

This is a long way of saying that I think you would be better served by a steel bike as it can be made stiff enough in both the front and the back for your size and weight and with Ti that is a pretty tall order. I would also say that carbon bike could serve you very well if you ever considered one of them.

I would talk to some builders who work in both steel and Ti and tell them your height, weight and how you ride and I'll bet they would agree that you would like a steel bike best.




As for stainless...........stainless doesn't have a type of ride. It rides like the steel it is and if you like that it is a very good thing. Stainless is no stiffer than non-stainless and unless the tubes are made smaller or thinner stainless is no lighter than non-stainless. It is just more resistant to corrosion. All that said most stainless bike material is wicked strong so it can be made into a tube with a thinner wall and this will make the bike lighter and can influence the way the bike rides as a thinner tube isn't as stiff as a thicker one. Most of the time the stiffness, at a given dia but with a different wall, will only vary by a very small amount as the wall thickness of a tube doesn't have a huge effect on the tube's stiffness......the dia does but not the wall.

So a stainless bike will most often ride much like a non-stainless bike unless the tubes on the stainless are super thin and the tubes on the non-stainless bike are super thick. So unless you are comparing a new 953 bike to an old Columbus SP bike I doubt you'll feel the tubes.

Time for BBQ..........thanks for reading.


dave

[wooly]

Here's my two cents -

I think Ti can make for very nice riding frame. I no longer work with Ti as I did during my Serotta days but I think for the right person Ti can be ideal.

That said I'm not sure I'd say you are the ideal person for Ti. I think that a person who is 5'3" and 125 pounds can have a Ti bike made and love it but at your size (or my size) I think the material is just not stiff enough for aggressive riding.

I of course know that one can use larger dia main triangle tubes with Ti and make up for the fact that it isn't as stiff as other materials and for the most part this works out pretty well. The place I've always felt it came up short was in the stiffness of the rear end and the c-stays specifically. The problem with c-stays is that their diameter, while not fixed, is pretty limited and it is just not possible to make a Ti c-stay as laterally stiff as a steel stay is. The space between the chain rings and the tire is limited and whatever c-stay used needs to fit in there and there just isn't that much room. One can of course make a tall oval but they aren't very stiff laterally (oval is in the wrong orientation for lateral stiffness) of the stay can have a pair of deep dents to make room for the tire and the rings but these act like hinges in a way and allow the stay to flex more in those spots..........largely negating the advantage of the larger dia c-stay.

There was a good thread on this way back when and Tom Kellogg and I talked a lot about stay stiffness, size constraints, and material. It was interesting stuff I think and covers the topic pretty well. Anyone know how to find that thread?

This is a long way of saying that I think you would be better served by a steel bike as it can be made stiff enough in both the front and the back for your size and weight and with Ti that is a pretty tall order. I would also say that carbon bike could serve you very well if you ever considered one of them.

I would talk to some builders who work in both steel and Ti and tell them your height, weight and how you ride and I'll bet they would agree that you would like a steel bike best.




As for stainless...........stainless doesn't have a type of ride. It rides like the steel it is and if you like that it is a very good thing. Stainless is no stiffer than non-stainless and unless the tubes are made smaller or thinner stainless is no lighter than non-stainless. It is just more resistant to corrosion. All that said most stainless bike material is wicked strong so it can be made into a tube with a thinner wall and this will make the bike lighter and can influence the way the bike rides as a thinner tube isn't as stiff as a thicker one. Most of the time the stiffness, at a given dia but with a different wall, will only vary by a very small amount as the wall thickness of a tube doesn't have a huge effect on the tube's stiffness......the dia does but not the wall.

So a stainless bike will most often ride much like a non-stainless bike unless the tubes on the stainless are super thin and the tubes on the non-stainless bike are super thick. So unless you are comparing a new 953 bike to an old Columbus SP bike I doubt you'll feel the tubes.

Time for BBQ..........thanks for reading.


dave

Love this forum. Good BBQ to you Dave.

I will parrot that I can't tell the difference between steel and stainless steel.

[eddief]

This is not to argue with Dave Kirk as I know he speaks without forked tongue. I am 5'11 and about 190 and the chainstays on this bike are 22.2 x 1.2. Compared to some it seems I can feel bike dynamics they would never notice. And compared to Dave...well there may be no comparison cause I trust his judgement. I did 50 miles again yesterday on my bike with a ton of out of seat climbing and putting down the (my) hammer, I noticed no flex. Now Dave on my bike might say this thing is so darn noodle-y. Not me.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jK8RtTjx4i4/UcOZTtQ8INI/AAAAAAAACrI/Yvv5BXfJMMU/s800/IMG_2312.JPG

[tigoat]

This is not to argue with Dave Kirk as I know he speaks without forked tongue. I am 5'11 and about 190 and the chainstays on this bike are 22.2 x 1.2. Compared to some it seems I can feel bike dynamics they would never notice. And compared to Dave...well there may be no comparison cause I trust his judgement. I did 50 miles again yesterday on my bike with a ton of out of seat climbing and putting down the (my) hammer, I noticed no flex. Now Dave on my bike might say this thing is so darn noodle-y. Not me.[/IMG]

Here is a Ti frame that Bill Holland built for me about 10 years ago with a full 1" diameter round pipe x .035" thick wall chain stays:

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s365/mingbogo/Holland-02_zps9c438af1.jpg

[timto]

Here is a Ti frame that Bill Holland built for me about 10 years ago with a full 1" diameter round pipe x .035" thick wall chain stays:

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s365/mingbogo/Holland-02_zps9c438af1.jpg

That's a rad looking bike and beefy stays any other pics? Not built up currently?

Regarding ti vs Steel I do think they have different road feel. Sure builders may be able to tune the stiffness or whatnot to ones preferences but I think material IS material... Whether or not you can tell the difference or what your preferences are might only be found through trial and error...

[axel23]

Agreed.
A Ti Dean is nice ride

[oldpotatoe]

You basically said it better than myself with the word COOL. Who cares about how it rides and what it will cost, as most high end custom metal bikes ride so similarily and they are all expensive, so to have something COOL would be the way to go, at least for me.

I guess that's why I ride a Merckx MXLeader..it is cool and it does ride really well. Best ever.

[oldpotatoe]

Here's my two cents -

I think Ti can make for very nice riding frame. I no longer work with Ti as I did during my Serotta days but I think for the right person Ti can be ideal.

That said I'm not sure I'd say you are the ideal person for Ti. I think that a person who is 5'3" and 125 pounds can have a Ti bike made and love it but at your size (or my size) I think the material is just not stiff enough for aggressive riding.

I of course know that one can use larger dia main triangle tubes with Ti and make up for the fact that it isn't as stiff as other materials and for the most part this works out pretty well. The place I've always felt it came up short was in the stiffness of the rear end and the c-stays specifically. The problem with c-stays is that their diameter, while not fixed, is pretty limited and it is just not possible to make a Ti c-stay as laterally stiff as a steel stay is. The space between the chain rings and the tire is limited and whatever c-stay used needs to fit in there and there just isn't that much room. One can of course make a tall oval but they aren't very stiff laterally (oval is in the wrong orientation for lateral stiffness) of the stay can have a pair of deep dents to make room for the tire and the rings but these act like hinges in a way and allow the stay to flex more in those spots..........largely negating the advantage of the larger dia c-stay.

There was a good thread on this way back when and Tom Kellogg and I talked a lot about stay stiffness, size constraints, and material. It was interesting stuff I think and covers the topic pretty well. Anyone know how to find that thread?

This is a long way of saying that I think you would be better served by a steel bike as it can be made stiff enough in both the front and the back for your size and weight and with Ti that is a pretty tall order. I would also say that carbon bike could serve you very well if you ever considered one of them.

I would talk to some builders who work in both steel and Ti and tell them your height, weight and how you ride and I'll bet they would agree that you would like a steel bike best.




As for stainless...........stainless doesn't have a type of ride. It rides like the steel it is and if you like that it is a very good thing. Stainless is no stiffer than non-stainless and unless the tubes are made smaller or thinner stainless is no lighter than non-stainless. It is just more resistant to corrosion. All that said most stainless bike material is wicked strong so it can be made into a tube with a thinner wall and this will make the bike lighter and can influence the way the bike rides as a thinner tube isn't as stiff as a thicker one. Most of the time the stiffness, at a given dia but with a different wall, will only vary by a very small amount as the wall thickness of a tube doesn't have a huge effect on the tube's stiffness......the dia does but not the wall.

So a stainless bike will most often ride much like a non-stainless bike unless the tubes on the stainless are super thin and the tubes on the non-stainless bike are super thick. So unless you are comparing a new 953 bike to an old Columbus SP bike I doubt you'll feel the tubes.

Time for BBQ..........thanks for reading.


dave

Good point there..outside diameter, not wall thickness, generally, makes for stiffness differences.

[tristan]

That said I'm not sure I'd say you are the ideal person for Ti. I think that a person who is 5'3" and 125 pounds can have a Ti bike made and love it but at your size (or my size) I think the material is just not stiff enough for aggressive riding.



Where is the tipping point, Dave? How much of it depends on rider weight, how much on their power / strength, and how much on what they want the bike to do (ie: race vs casual rides)

[eddief]

at least the tubes look normal from here. Or maybe it was built simply as a "kickstand" to prop up Bill Walton :)

http://hollandcycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Bill-Walton-2.jpg

maybe part of the decision process would be based on weight. by the time you make the ti frame the right stiffness, the bigger and/or beefier tubes begin to approach the weight of steel. then maybe just get steel. still think ti has a road feel that is slightly or more than a little different. did not say better, said different.

Here is a Ti frame that Bill Holland built for me about 10 years ago with a full 1" diameter round pipe x .035" thick wall chain stays:

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s365/mingbogo/Holland-02_zps9c438af1.jpg

[David Kirk]

Where is the tipping point, Dave? How much of it depends on rider weight, how much on their power / strength, and how much on what they want the bike to do (ie: race vs casual rides)

That is a near impossible question to answer......or at least impossible for me to give a good answer to.

The extremes are easy but the middle is less so and there is no doubt a lot of overlap. The good thing is that for those in the middle of the bell curve it will make less difference.............by that I mean folks might be better served by one material over another but only to a small degree. So riders in the middle of the bell curve will have the greatest number of choices that will work well for them and as one moves out to either end of the bell curve the good choices become fewer.

The sand in the Vaseline here is personal preference..........I have no doubt that there are many tall and heavy guys who own Ti bikes and they love them despite the fact that many 'experts' like myself think they might be better served by a different bike. They like their bike and they are happy and there is nothing wrong with that. Would they like a different material more if they had a chance to try it? Maybe. But it is a tall order to find a bike just like the one you have but made from a different material to use for an apples-apples comparison. Most folks will buy a bike and use it for years and they don't have the luxury of having a fleet of different bikes to choose from..........and if they enjoy the bike they have and it doesn't give them trouble life is good.

dave

[eddief]

Roubaix carbon
Curtlo steel
Carver Ti

Hard to turn the brain off while riding as it asks "how does this one feel?" how does this one compare to the other?" just shut up and ride!

I feel more done on the choosing and buying than ever have been in the last dozen years.

That is a near impossible question to answer......or at least impossible for me to give a good answer to.

The extremes are easy but the middle is less so and there is no doubt a lot of overlap. The good thing is that for those in the middle of the bell curve it will make less difference.............by that I mean folks might be better served by one material over another but only to a small degree. So riders in the middle of the bell curve will have the greatest number of choices that will work well for them and as one moves out to either end of the bell curve the good choices become fewer.

The sand in the Vaseline here is personal preference..........I have no doubt that there are many tall and heavy guys who own Ti bikes and they love them despite the fact that many 'experts' like myself think they might be better served by a different bike. They like their bike and they are happy and there is nothing wrong with that. Would they like a different material more if they had a chance to try it? Maybe. But it is a tall order to find a bike just like the one you have but made from a different material to use for an apples-apples comparison. Most folks will buy a bike and use it for years and they don't have the luxury of having a fleet of different bikes to choose from..........and if they enjoy the bike they have and it doesn't give them trouble life is good.

dave

[MadRocketSci]

Since we're getting into tube theory...

Thin walled tube stiffness is linear with thickness and cubic with diameter. So to make a ti tube of similar dia as stiff as steel, double its thickness. Triple for aluminum. Will lose any weight advantage but for space limited spots the only way to match the three.

According to time and others who use asymmetrical chain stays, the ds cs is mainly in compression anyway, so bending stiffness matters less. The non ds cs is in lateral bending stress so could stiffen that by not crimping, as there is no geo constraint from chain rings. So perhaps these issues could still be designed around. Otherwise, wouldn't all alloy race bikes suffer from the same rear end floppiness under big guys? I dunno, do they?

[John H.]

I'm with Eddie. I think a ti bike with the right tubes and 1" stays is plenty stiff.
I just went that route with a ti project of my own and I am totally happy with it.

[KidWok]

I have this wild fantasy were I go to Montana and get David Kirk and Carl Strong to build me a bike each in exactly the same dimensions with all the same components. A steel Kirk and a Ti Strong. And then I would ride the heck out of them. And then I'd probably not care which one rode "better" and the experiment would be a total failure.

Tai

[Jack Brunk]

I have this wild fantasy were I go to Montana and get David Kirk and Carl Strong to build me a bike each in exactly the same dimensions with all the same components. A steel Kirk and a Ti Strong. And then I would ride the heck out of them. And then I'd probably not care which one rode "better" and the experiment would be a total failure.

Tai

Tai,

I think that's heaven my friend. It wouldn't get any better anywhere.

JB

PS, do you have more water bottles available?

[Louis]

Good point there..outside diameter, not wall thickness, generally, makes for stiffness differences.

Yup - for thin walled tubes (which means nearly all the tubes we're talking about here):

Ix = Iy = pi*(R^3)*t

so changing the radius has a much more significant impact on bending stiffness than changes in wall thickness.

[gngroup]

Go for a steel frame. I'm of the opinion that everyone ought to have at least one steel bike in their stable.