DKS! Duh?

[Lifelover]

I was looking at the monster Hors on ebay and for some reason it all the sudden dawned on me that DKS stands for "Dave Kirk Suspension".

Is that correct?

If so what does 'ST" stand for?

[SoCalSteve]

Yes!

I havent a clue what ST stands for.

But, I will tell you this, the DKS works better than the ST. Maybe because there are more letters in it...

And yes, that is a HUGE Hors Cat.

Steve

PS: If ever there were a Ottrott DKS available again, I'd sell off all my bikes and just ride that one. It would be the PERFECT bike! Right Smiley?

[Sandy]

Yes!

I havent a clue what ST stands for.

But, I will tell you this, the DKS works better than the ST. Maybe because there are more letters in it...

And yes, that is a HUGE Hors Cat.

Steve

PS: If ever there were a Ottrott DKS available again, I'd sell off all my bikes and just ride that one. It would be the PERFECT bike! Right Smiley?

You are making :) y start to salivate again. Yep, the PERFECT bike, per Smiley, I am sure. :)
So Sure So Serotta Sandy

[Smiley]

I'd pay a pretty penny for an Ottrott DKS , I told them boys and girls at serotta that too . Maybe one day they will make a improved DKS rear. Glad to see that you have drunk the Kool Aid SoCal

[Grant McLean]

Yes!
PS: If ever there were a Ottrott DKS available again, I'd sell off all my bikes and just ride that one. It would be the PERFECT bike! Right Smiley?

Imperfection is Perfection. There is no perfect bike.

Wabi-sabi rules!


_Gee

[Dekonick]

The Hors comes pretty close to perfect...

for me at least!

[Argos]

I believe it is as follows

IT: Integrated Technology
ST: Suspension Technology
CS: Carbon Stays
Meivici: My Wife will kick me out when she finds out what I spent on this bike

[Ginger]

You mean one of these?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7414&stc=1

[Argos]

Ginger

Where did you get that photo? That is from sooooo long ago. I know that bike. Ha! That's awesome

[Ginger]

I was watching that bike on Ebay...I think the TT is 50 c-t-c...which is exactly what I need...but I passed on it. I hope it went to a good home. If they ever decide to get rid of it, let me know!

[Argos]

I do not know where it is now, but that's a pic I took years ago behind the shop I used to work for when I put it on ebay. It's just funny you've had it for so long.

[weisan]

I may be wrong in this. Did Dave-pal (as in Dave Thompson) went to Dave-pal (as in D. Kirk) and have him refit his Ottrott with the DKS?

Edit: I corrected my own mistake. Dave went back to have a curvy terraplane retrofit on one of his older Kirks.

I guess there's no reason why someone couldn't pay for a framebuilder to perform breast augmentation...eh I mean, retrofit the Ottrott and HORS. It may void the original warranty, though. But for me, it's a risk I am willing to take at some point in the future.

[SoCalSteve]

but, you'd have to have the elastomers. They dont exist anymore.

As for the bushings, pivot point, etc...sure, that all stills exists.

What if you just took an existing Hors Categorie and an existing Ottrott and did a Mr Potaato head...

Good luck with that!

Steve

[flydhest]

I seem to recall that Smiley also had an inspired idea of having S&S couplers and two rear triangles, one DKS one standard. Wouldn't that be a hoot? You could directly compare the ride of a DKS, ST, and a standard rear triangle.

[Ginger]

Argos,

Now you know the truth about me, I seldom throw out old photos...you never know when they might come in handy! I like to torture Smiley with that one.

[jl123]

Guys don't be so down, (BTW I think serotta still has elastomers.) other technologies are already available. It could be that Klien's new Reve design works the best yet- the Tour de France riders sure liked them. No pogoing either and more lateral stiffness than DKS- no pivots. Even if indeed the rest of the bike is not exactly custom work. JL

[Sandy]

Argos,

Now you know the truth about me, I seldom throw out old photos...you never know when they might come in handy! I like to torture Smiley with that one.

I think that you did exactly that. Bad girl! :)


Sandy

[SoCalSteve]

Guys don't be so down, (BTW I think serotta still has elastomers.) other technologies are already available. It could be that Klien's new Reve design works the best yet- the Tour de France riders sure liked them. No pogoing either and more lateral stiffness than DKS- no pivots. Even if indeed the rest of the bike is not exactly custom work. JL


There are no more elastomers. I had a LONG chat with Dave Kirk about them. He enlightened me to how very very expensive they were and how everytime Serotta sold a set aftermarket that they would lose money on them (they just did it for the customer service).

Unless Ben, James and company are holding out on us (and I dont think they are) the elastomers are NO LONGER.

When I asked Kelly Bedford once if he thought the DKS rear end would ever come back, he just laughed....

As for the Klein, I have never ridden one, but have ridden Hor Categorie's a few thousand miles....I cant even imagine how one could compare to the other.

Steve

[jl123]

From cycling News:

"The input from the Discovery riders has been very positive. Stijn Devolder raced the bike in the Three Days of The Panne and finished second on stage one. Roger Hammond also tested the bike on the cobbles and told Daubert, "I rode the prototype bike with the SPA rear suspension. It felt really good. I did a small sector of cobbles, and the bike handled really well and took the edge off the cobbles." Other Discovery riders echoed Hammond's comments in the run-up to Roubaix. Hincapie, who was obviously happy enough with the system in testing to use it in battle, commented, "I don't notice it on the road but it glides on the cobbles." Leif Hoste said, "It's really good. Super fast. I'm happy for sure happy with it."

Looks like the SPA tech is for real.

[alancw3]

should it be a concedrn that the elastomers are no longer available for a prospective hors buyer?

[Ken Robb]

I have ridden a H'ors Cat for a couple of hundred miles and liked it a lot. Had it been a couple centimeters bigger I would have bought it. The non-availability of elastomers would discourage me from buying one now. I think they have very long life-expectancy but, un-like discontinued hard parts, you won't be able to find NOS elastomers when yours finally go. All of them would be the same age even if never ridden. Maybe a set would last indefinitely if stored in a cool, darks place? Whaddaya say Dave Kirk?

I have ridden Kleins as little as possible because the ride is brutally harsh. Last year one of my riding buddies got one of the new Reve bikes with the elastomer rear bushing and it seemd like a great improvement to me. It took most of the "sizzle" from the coarse paving and I didn't feel any bobbing or flex.

My Hampstem YBB does an even better job masking bumps and maintaining traction off-road but when I'm pedalling for top speed I get some bobbing. Moots does have a stiffer spring and elastomer but I am reluctant to give up the cushiness. I can't pedal in the "bobbing range" for more than a few minutes anyway. For a top speed run I can tighten a screw and make the rear stay solid so it's not really a drawback of any kind for me.

[SoCalSteve]

He told me that the elastomers will never go bad. I believe him, considering he designed the DKS system and found the company that made the elastoemrs (I believe he told me 3M).

It's rubber, yes? I imagine if you do not put them in a microwave or an Easy Bake oven, there is no reason for them NOT to last a lifetime. The set I have dont seem like they are even worn a little bit and my bike is from 1999.

I think that would be the least of your worries in buying a used Hors Cat. Price and sizing would be of much bigger concern, imho.

Steve

[sam]

Hows this.......

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=11075#post11075

[sam]

How would you know if the elastomer was bad and needed replacment?

Has it ever happened?

[SoCalSteve]

brittle.

I've owned a couple Hor Cats and I've never seen that happen. Dont leave the rear end baking in the sun for days at a time (who would do that?) and I am sure they will last a lifetime.

Steve

[FierteTi52]

The elastomers are made from surgical grade rubber. They will last as long as the frame. The pivots are still available from Serotta. I bought my 2001 Hors used and the dealer replaced the pivots for me before the bike was shipped. Bottom line is, there no reason not to buy a used Hors.
Jeff

[David Kirk]

The elastomers are really elastomers at all...........the are made of silicone molded directly to stainless steel. The silicone will will outlast you or the frame....meaning they should be good for a very long time. They were made with a UV filter so sun shouldn't be an issue. If you find one you can afford there is no reason not to buy.

The material was produced by a company that does special work for 3M. It's an ultra damper made to cushion metal stamping equipment. It's placed in huge slabs underneath sheet metal stamps used in automotive plants. It keeps the machines for shaking the buildings apart.

When I was first shown the stuff it was in a ball form like a superball. It feels like a super ball. I was told to throw it as hard as I could at the floor and watch the bounce. I thought for usre it was going to bounce all over the room. I hucked it as hard as I could and it bounced once.....about 6" of the ground and then fell silently to the floor. That stuff rocks.

That was fun work.

Dave

[SoCalSteve]

dispelling all the myths.

It's great that you've come along and posted here. I hated to speak out of turn and hoped that I got all the facts right that you told me.

Still loving my Hors Cat!

Steve

[Dekonick]

Yes - Dave thanks for confirming what I hoped...that is that the elastomer will be around for a long time - thank God!

But - one more thought -

If the elastomer were damaged - what then? Can the frame be ridden safely w/o the elastomers? What would the ride be like?

[93legendti]

Yes - Dave thanks for confirming what I hoped...that is that the elastomer will be around for a long time - thank God!

But - one more thought -

If the elastomer were damaged - what then? Can the frame be ridden safely w/o the elastomers? What would the ride be like?


Kelly told me the DKS could be ridden without the elastomers--but it might be a pretty "soft" ride. Just make sure the screws are in.

BTW, the bike rides great in sub 20 degree weather. The cold doesn't seem to degrade the elastomers' performance.

[SoCalSteve]

earth could you damage the elastomers???

Wow, if that happens then yes, you should find a new bike to ride.

[Dekonick]

I have no idea but if they were damaged I was just wondering...

Does anyone ever take them off and clean underneath? I have never taken mine off and just was the bike with warm water - perhaps a little dawn dish detergent or similar.

[jl123]

Just a few parting thoughts on this ever interesting topic of road bike suspension- a fairly new again interest of a good few builders...

As it appears- indeed much to everyones dismay, that DKS will never again be built- due both to the unavailabilty of the 3M-silicon and due to Serotta's patent which apparently they will use to stop anyone from ever trying- for what reason I cannot fathom. I just wanted to write that in addition to my aformentioned post talking about another well-engineered approach- Trek's SPA technology, we do have other approaches which rely soley on the flex of metal to dampen road shock possibly almost as well and possible better in some ways than spring/elastomers sytems.
That is we have Dave Kirk's Terraplane system, which from reports I have heard especially from heavier riders seem to feel has real movement- and no doubt even better rebound characteristics than any elastomer based system- and therefore more of the all-of-a-piece, alert and immediate responce which we all like so much in regular rides. And note I believe this Terraplane technolgy still has further to go in its capability- with the coming of new generations of steel such as 953 and with stronger metal the possibilty of more bend in the tubes without worry of breakage, possibly more travel could be built in- and we get closer to DKS yet with more response at the pedals.

And last another thought, according to builders such as Carl-Strong and others- who have built some, titamiun seat-stays can be bent (though not as much as the DKS) quite a ways to afford some amount of movement as well
without getting into pivots.

[Tailwinds]

we have Dave Kirk's Terraplane system, which from reports I have heard especially from heavier riders seem to feel has real movement- and no doubt even better rebound characteristics than any elastomer based system- and therefore more of the all-of-a-piece, alert and immediate responce which we all like so much in regular rides.

Yes, the Terraplane is quite the performance-oriented "suspension" system! I only weigh 125#, so the feeling of "travel" is minimal, although it definitely does the best job out of any bike I've ridden of keeping the rear wheel planted on the ground over rough pavement, gravel, and down high-speed, twisty descents. It does all this while never feeling bouncy or suffering any loss of power to the pedals. Simply brilliant.

And... bikes w/straight stays begin to look odd and even boring after you spend a weekend around sexy, curvy Terraplanes.

[alancw3]

have been into vintage bikes and recently have enjoyed the serotta forum. great bunch of guys and girls. hope to acquire a serotta soon and become part of the family. anyway i don't know if any of you have ever heard of hetchins and there radically new "curly" in the mid 1930's. i am posting some interesting pictures some dating back to 1936. talk about suspension and the dks hors catagorie! for those who want a real treat to see possibly the most elaborate lug work of all time checkout www.hetchins.org. bikes still produced today albeit the company has changed ownership. i wonder if dave kirk was influenced at all by the hetchins? bates also made the curly at the same time period.

[alancw3]

and the piece d' resistance the magnum opus millenium. special production model for 2000. 100 made.

[alancw3]

oops picture file of magnum opus to large. sorry have to reduce.

[jl123]

Alan,
It is my understanding that most people report the Hetchens and similar bikes do not actually have much vertical movement. I have heard that titanium when built to a simlar seat-stay sweep, due to it greater elasticity does move vertical rather more than steel.

I also understand (at least I think I do) that David Kirk has better taken advantage of steels elastic zone than anyone up to this point, by creating two (2) sweeps to almost make an S bend in the seat-stays. (ie the amount of flex it can tolerate over a great many cycles of bending. I think Mr.Kirk once explained to me that ironically titanium would not take well to such bending as here its elasticity would work against it- being too noodly. I think it would make for an interesting comparsion of a single large sweept titanium frame and a maximum allowable bend Terraplane. JL

[dave thompson]

<snip>....... that DKS will never again be built.......due to Serotta's patent which apparently they will use to stop anyone from ever trying- for what reason I cannot fathom..........<snip>
Dave Kirk spent a ton of time inventing and developing his DKS rear end while Serotta was spending a pile of money on it. Therefore I would assume that Serotta would want to protect their rights and enforce their patent.

<snip>....titamiun seat-stays can be bent (though not as much as the DKS) quite a ways to afford some amount of movement as well
without getting into pivots.
Single bend seat stays like you talk about don't provide the kind of spring rate that the Terraplane does, they load and unload too fast and too hard.

[David Kirk]

As it appears- indeed much to everyones dismay, that DKS will never again be built- due both to the unavailabilty of the 3M-silicon and due to Serotta's patent which apparently they will use to stop anyone from ever trying- for what reason I cannot fathom..

Just for the record.........Serotta does have a patent on the DKS thingie but to my knowledge no one has ever asked to use the idea. In other words I don't think Serotta or the patent are keeping folks for doing something. Serotta still produces a product covered under that patent (the ST) and that helps keep the patent active but I'd guess if someone wanted to use it Serotta would consider it. Just a guess

Dave

[jl123]

Dave,
Just as you were writing your thread, I was editing mine. I agree with you, please see my above edited version.

Well here it is again: Alan,
It is my understanding that most people report the Hetchens and similar bikes do not actually have much vertical movement. I have heard that titanium when built to a simlar seat-stay sweep, due to it greater elasticity does move vertical rather more than steel.

I also understand (at least I think I do) that David Kirk has better taken advantage of steels elastic zone than anyone up to this point, by creating two (2) sweeps to almost make an S bend in the seat-stays. (ie the amount of flex it can tolerate over a great many cycles of bending. I think Mr.Kirk once explained to me that ironically titanium would not take well to such bending as here its elasticity would work against it- being too noodly. I think it would make for an interesting comparsion of a single large sweept titanium frame and a maximum allowable bend Terraplane. JL

[Tailwinds]

Single bend seat stays like you talk about don't provide the kind of spring rate that the Terraplane does, they load and unload too fast and too hard.

My '98 Litespeed Ultimate has swoopy, ti seatstays, and there is still the jackhammer effect. OUCH.

[aLexis]

ST = Speed tracking.

HOHoho

[Ken Robb]

RE: Litespeed Ultimate- I think that model has especially short chainstays and that would give a harsher ride than longer chainstays all else being equal.

[Tailwinds]

Yes, it has mad short chainstays and a massive 6/4 downtube... the swoopy seatstays don't negate any of that. The bike is fine in a straight line on smooth pavement, but that's about it.

[Smiley]

Lets not forget the Ibis BOW TI , or maybe you all were too young to remember that one.

Just in my opinion the DKS system is way ahead of its time, COST killed it as well the the invention of the ST rear that replaced it. Lastly the notion that the DKS was some kind of AARP bike enhancement did not help the cause.

If you get a chance ride one and see for yourself what all these Kool Aid drinkers have been saying for awhile.

[IXXI]

All this talk of DKS made me crazy. Started the build on my Hors tonite (may not be done til early '06 due to other demands on my $), but I'll have some tasty pics up tomorrow. Can't wait to get this out on the roads.

WARNING to HC purists: its a sloper. And still looks great next to my orange Atlanta!

PS- A friend of mine owns and rides a Bow Ti; it is one sick sick SICK bike.

[Smiley]

I am glad you kept that bike Andy . I am sure you wont regret it . Enjoy and can't wait to see the photo's Smiley

[IXXI]

...and won't be for a while, but here's a preview of Hors Categorie CHC 58 367.

Actually I'm loving the lines of the DKS *especially* in compact form. I like the design of the Serotta post but think I'll be needing something with a little setback once I git er done; also the post is at its max extension and that kind of creeps me out.

Notes: Forum sticker, Serotta ti stem 120, DT Swiss wheels (Joe Young), Aliante saddle, F2 is uncut until I get final tweaks in, may try this compact thing with Ritchey 50-34 and 11-21 rear... but all is subject to change at whim!

[IXXI]

2 more:

[FierteTi52]

Nice looking bike! I like the DKS with a sloping top tube . The Terraplane stays look nice with a sloping top tube too.
Jeff

[IXXI]

Yeah DK-- you pretty much rock all around. Someday I wanna have a beer with you. And get one of *your* bikes.

Clinky clinky :beer:

[93legendti]

Nice looking bike!

[FierteTi52]

Speaking of sloping top tubes, this Terraplane loooks pretty sweet!!
Jeff

[Ginger]

Jeff, is that yours?!!

[peter_b]

That bike is a slice of heaven. It ia far and away the best bike I've ever owned. Dave made another bike for my wife Kris (#58 in the photo gallery), which is also very sweet, she reports. I'm amazed how these bikes seem to reflect the personality of the onwer. My wife's bike even kind of looks like her, if she was a bike, that is.

Yes, Dave is an incredibly smart and talented man. But by far the smartest thing he's ever done was to marry my sister.

[Tailwinds]

Your sister is too cool! I rode w/her in Montana. She would be an awesome training partner to have if we lived closer.

Nice bike! Mine is the orange #55 on Dave's site.

[Ken Robb]

it would seem lXXl that a bigger bike would fit you better so just order up a 61cm HC---oops, too late. :crap:

[slowgoing]

IXXI - love the bike. First sloper HC i've seen and it's nice. Those tires and saddle also really stand out.

Your garage door looks like black filing cabinets.

[dave thompson]

.

[William]

...and won't be for a while, but here's a preview of Hors Categorie CHC 58 367.

Actually I'm loving the lines of the DKS *especially* in compact form. I like the design of the Serotta post but think I'll be needing something with a little setback once I git er done; also the post is at its max extension and that kind of creeps me out.

Notes: Forum sticker, Serotta ti stem 120, DT Swiss wheels (Joe Young), Aliante saddle, F2 is uncut until I get final tweaks in, may try this compact thing with Ritchey 50-34 and 11-21 rear... but all is subject to change at whim!

Sweet skyline shot of PDX. :cool: And the Banana sticker rocks too! Oh yea, nice bike. ;) :D


William ;)

[Ken Robb]

I usually prefer "classic" non-slopers but in H'ors cats I think the slopers look better. I've never seen one in person but these pix are great.