real handlebars are here to stay!

[jerk]

in no small part due to the tireless efforts of one of our own...... now if they could just make a 65 shape.....

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

CONTACT: Suzette Ayotte, suzayotte@earthlink.net

415.674.6622

RICHARD SACHS PAINTS HIS CYCLO-CROSS TEAM IN CLASSIC OVAL RED

-Oval Concepts Classic Bend Handlebars Confirm for Sachs:

“There is a God.”-

Lugano, Switzerland - 08 December 2006 – Oval Concepts, recognized by their progressive aero shaped designs for both road and time trial products is being lauded, ironically, by frame builder Richard Sachs, one of the finest bicycle frames builders in the world. Last weekend and for the past two race seasons Sachs and his Richard Sachs sponsored Cyclo-Cross Club have lined up at regional and national start lines riding Oval Concepts Classic Bend handlebar. So, where’s the ironic twist if it’s not in the bar?

The irony rests in the fact that Oval Concepts is on the cutting edge of materials science and advanced technology while Sachs has been using the same predictable building materials – steel - for over twenty-five years. Yet Sachs resolutely and openly applauds Oval for preserving the fading dreams of ‘old school’ builders like him by providing access to Classic handlebar designs that have fallen victim to cost cutting, competitive marketing and OE specification criteria.

“I argued for years with makers about the scarcity of older shaped handlebars, always pointing to the pros as examples of those "still" using these shapes: Bartoli, Armstrong, Musseuw, Virenque, and scores of others,” said Sachs. “The replies were almost always the same: once a year we make the stash for the pros because they use [mostly] non-anatomical handlebars - then we resume making what sells.”

While indisputably, Oval Concepts best selling products are the result of research, applied materials science and advanced technology, the company is guided by a mission that blends a forward thinking approach with tradition and fervor – ultimately, pushing the limits but revering the past. In October, while Tjorbjorn Sindballe recorded the fastest bike-split in the history of the Kona Ironman World Championships using Oval’s Limited Edition Jetstream 911 aerobar and creating a buzz along the famed Ali Drive, Sachs was buzzing about on the opposite end of that spectrum in search of what he refers to as “real goods.”

“Alas, in the wake of all this,” Sachs writes on the Serotta Bicycles forum [http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=6043&highlight=anatomic+bars], “Our 04 team sponsor re-issued the classic handlebar in question. From this point forward I am committed to Oval Concepts because they make excellent quality components, they heard the plea for better shaped handlebars and heeded the call. There is a God.”

Joining Sachs last weekend as part of the Richard Sachs/Connecticut Yankee Bicycle Club in the US (established in 1967), of which he has been the title sponsor since 1981, were Elites Justin Spinelli, Alicia Genest-Hamblen, Noah Taylor and Espoir Bryan Hayes. Sachs’ loyalty has not only helped nurture the sport but has produced many top cross athletes in the process, leading to 9 national championship titles. That same kind of loyalty and service – Oval’s commitment to providing Sachs’ favorite Classic bend handlebar, as well as its commitment to progressive research, development and design - puts Oval on the parcours of past, present and future cycling champions.

Oval Concepts designs, manufactures and markets high performance, elegant road and aero handlebars, stems, seat posts and JetStream forks for both racers and enthusiasts. ” For more information visit the website at www.ovalconcepts.com. For information about Richard Sachs and the Connecticut Yankee Bicycle Club, visit www.richardsachs.com.

[saab2000]

A 65 which works with the Campagnolo 10-speed is what is needed. Still, round bars are also available from Deda.

I lived in Lugano. Just needed to rub that in. The irony is that the riding is only "average to good" by Euro standards, unless all you ever want to do is climb. Assos is down there too.

Lugano = Palm trees in Switzerland. Gotta see it to believe it.

[PeterW]

Jerk,

More about the 65, please. What dimension is so special?

I notice that the Ovals come shallow and deep.

Where can I buy these bars?

[jerk]

Jerk,

More about the 65, please. What dimension is so special?

I notice that the Ovals come shallow and deep.

Where can I buy these bars?


the 65s are awesome because-

the drops aren' as deep as a 66

but are deeper than a 64

and the shape of the tops mean that the jerk's poor fragile wrists don't get bruised when he jumps out of the saddle in the drops and isn't paying attention....

jerk

[saab2000]

The '65' was the model number of Cinelli's Criterium Bend bar. It is, IMHO, the most comfortable shape ever for a bar. It was a medium drop and you could sprint without hitting your wrists on the upper curve. Also, the reach was good. Modern 'brifters' do not mount properly on them though because they are longer than old brake levers. They have not been made in several years.

[PeterW]

The 65s are the curvy ones, of course! They are not square like the 64 and 66s. They were my favorite as a teen (when I was cool).

I notice that the Oval Concepts come in drops 135 & 144mm. The 144 is right.

Oval 135 is a little less than the 64s (138). Italian classics.

Oval 144 is the same drop as the 65s.

66 = 158, hard men of Belgium. CAMPIONE DEL MONDO.

Jerk, count me down for 5 sets of 65-inspired bars when they arrive off the boat. Just as soon as I get the DT rim in a tubular version!

In the meantime, I want to buy an Oval 144. Any idea where? PM me please.

Saab, I lived in Geneva for four years, where the riding was "average" too! As I hammer along in the Low Country of South Carolina, how I long for that average again.

[bluesea]

I've always used 66s, but these Deda 215s (my 1st ergos) force my wrists into an un-natural bend. I want to pick one of these Ovals up asap.

[saab2000]

Deda bars are also made in a deep drop round bend. The Oval Concepts are probably great and I am not trying to dissuade anyone.

The Deda round ones are light and stiff and similar to the 66s. The difference is slightly less drop and slightly more reach. Otherwise very solid.

[Spicoli]

Deda bars are also made in a deep drop round bend. The Oval Concepts are probably great and I am not trying to dissuade anyone.

The Deda round ones are light and stiff and similar to the 66s. The difference is slightly less drop and slightly more reach. Otherwise very solid.

I have both round bends they make, the Deep "Belgian" and the shallow "Italian" drop bars and cant say enough good things about them. The Deeps have a 95 reach and a 145 drop which works awesome for myself and it has a bit more of an even curve so modern brifters fit nicely. If you use Shimano it gives an almost flat bar to brift on the hoods, kinda how Campy stuff fits. Nice long flat drops and I would be surprised if anyone could wrist bang them. While I only tinkered with the shallows they have a more traditional curve thats more towards the bottom of the drop and a tighter radius. These too were pretty hard to wrist unlike other shallows I have tried that beat the crap out of my wrists from any angle. I picked up a couple of pairs of each so I have them for the future.
I have to commend companies like Oval for keeping there eyes open unlike other manufactures and realizing not everyone want a $300 carbon ergo bar that has to be replaced in a year and has one sweet spot. Would it be too much to ask for a company to make a shallow, medium, and a deep drop round bar in alu.? They could probably make a great margin on it since it is so simple to make. Strange how only two companies have figured this out? :confused:

[e-RICHIE]

let's not forget the stem...
few companies make a light, high-style, 4-bolt face plate,
and FORGED-NOT CNC-ed stem to go with any h'bars, much
less the good ones. the oval concepts r700 is just that stem.
i've been using mine for two seasons and, you guessed it,
i'm gettin' more tail than sinatra.
e-RICHIE©™®

[jerk]

comes in 150mm too which is only tenty seven mm shorter than the jerk's...

never mind.


jerk

[e-RICHIE]

comes in 150mm too which is only tenty seven mm shorter than the jerk's...

never mind.


jerk


and your's also weighs only 190 grams, eh?
e-RICHIE©™®

[jerk]

and your's also weighs only 190 grams, eh?
e-RICHIE©™®


no one really seems to care about weight.....girth yes, weight no.

[soulspinner]

Ok, why is forged better than cncd?

[jerk]

'cause it is.

no stress risers, not going to break.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

Ok, why is forged better than cncd?


search the archives; this has been
a thread issue many times before.

[jerk]

search the archives; this has been
a thread issue many times before.


you tell him.

jerk

[bluesea]

Okay I see what you mean. I have a 25.x mm 65 here, and the drop is about 160-65 and it angles down more severely from tops to the drops than these newer bars.

[Ozz]

let's not forget the stem...
few companies make a light, high-style, 4-bolt face plate,
and FORGED-NOT CNC-ed stem to go with any h'bars, much
less the good ones. the oval concepts r700 is just that stem.
i've been using mine for two seasons and, you guessed it,
i'm gettin' more tail than sinatra.
e-RICHIE©™®
Don't forget reasonably priced!

I've seen these online going for about $60 or so....LBS's gotta sell 'em for well under a $100.

[manet]

Ok, why is forged better than cncd?

please to remember, forge is not cast (cast may/can be worser).

working with the grain of the chosen material is usually the best
way to go about things when cnc'n. in general, detail articulation
is far more accurate when cnc'd, and is the best method for
fabrication when wicked strength is not called for. casting makes
for a brittle structure. forging is all about realigning the miniscule
little tid bits that are scattered helter-skelter during the casting process.
to realign is get all the ducks in a row, aka grain.

[vaxn8r]

let's not forget the stem...
few companies make a light, high-style, 4-bolt face plate,
and FORGED-NOT CNC-ed stem to go with any h'bars, much
less the good ones. the oval concepts r700 is just that stem.
i've been using mine for two seasons and, you guessed it,
i'm gettin' more tail than sinatra.
e-RICHIE©™®
I've got one of these. The reverse bolt design for the face plate is way cool. Otherwise it reminds me of a Richey.

[lnomalley]

I can't say enough great things about Oval.

[columbusslx]

Anyone know which Cinelli is the Easton Equipe Pro closest to (copied from)?

[soulspinner]

Thanks guys. Been running Ritchey bars and stems but drop is 144-identical to my bars. I will give the Oval stuff a try.

[TimD]

With all due respect to jerk and e-Ritchie, forging and numerically controlled machining are not mutually exclusive. If there is a stem on the market which has been forged and not machined, either by hand or by computer-controlled equipment, I'd like to see it. GaudiBikeComponents maybe? :)

TimD

[e-RICHIE]

With all due respect to jerk and e-Ritchie, forging and numerically controlled machining are not mutually exclusive. If there is a stem on the market which has been forged and not machined, either by hand or by computer-controlled equipment, I'd like to see it. GaudiBikeComponents maybe? :)

TimD

not being an engineer myself, my only comment is that
there are forged al stems and there are cnc-ed al stems.
the former may require some post birth machine work,
but at the end of the day the two animals have little
in common.

[Dr. Doofus]

ritchey classic 26.0 is, like deda 215 shallow, almost a 65 clone

ritchey classic 31.6 (?) is, like deda 215 deep, almost a 66 clone

doof likes the ritchey non-anatomic shallows

[TimD]

not being an engineer myself, my only comment is that
there are forged al stems and there are cnc-ed al stems.
the former may require some post birth machine work,
but at the end of the day the two animals have little
in common.

I'm not a materials engineer either, but was given a useful materials science education as a Lehigh U. undergrad. I agree 100% that a stem which starts out as a forged blank is probably going to be both stronger and more durable than one which does not, all other things being equal. So, yes.

Thanks
TimD

[e-RICHIE]

I'm not a materials engineer either, but was given a useful materials science education as a Lehigh U. undergrad. I agree 100% that a stem which starts out as a forged blank is probably going to be both stronger and more durable than one which does not, all other things being equal. So, yes.

Thanks
TimD

i had my own personal jesus moment on a "lightweight,
cnc-ed stem" about 4 years ago (search the archives...)
and swore never to return to that place and time. when
i called the manufacturer to complain, their primary comment
was "...folks want 'lightweight'. we know our stuff is borderline
unsafe. the pro teams have staff which cares for the parts.
the public doesn't. if we don't sell to the public, someone
else will, and we need that business."
as far as i am concerned, for stems, forged al is best.
e-RICHIE©™®

[saab2000]

One of the issues with Oval Concepts products is that they are somewhat harder to find. Most online retailers don't seem to have them. That is too bad because they seem to be good things. But their website does not indicate the availability of stems longer than 13 cm. They should have a 14 available.

[OldDog]

Anyone able to quote to reach of the Cinelli 64, 65, and 66's?

How about the oval concept classic road bar? their site does not spec the reach.

[sg8357]

One of the issues with Oval Concepts products is that they are somewhat harder to find. Most online retailers don't seem to have them. That is too bad because they seem to be good things. But their website does not indicate the availability of stems longer than 13 cm. They should have a 14 available.

Oval is in the QBP catalog, so your LBS can get them.
The stems are also available in silver with easily removable logos.
The Ovals look good stripped and polished.
Use EasyOff logo cleaner available at your LGS.

Now if someone can convince Nitto to make grooved Noodle bars
I'll be really happy.

Scott G.

[dirtdigger88]

Anyone able to quote to reach of the Cinelli 64, 65, and 66's?




THIS (http://www.bikepro.com/products/handlebars/cinell_drop.html) might help-

Jason

[Keith A]

Like several others have stated, I too love my Deda 215 shallow drop and Ritchey WCS Classics! There are some subtle differences between the two, but they are both fantastic handlebars in my opinion. I'm happy to hear that another manufacturer will be producing a handlebar in a "classic" design.

Edit: It looks like AirBomb.com (http://store.airbomb.com/items.asp?mc=OvalConcepts) carries many of Oval Concepts (http://www.ovalconcepts.com) products, but they don't list the "Classic R700" on their website.

[e-RICHIE]

THIS (http://www.bikepro.com/products/handlebars/cinell_drop.html) might help-

Jason


the catalog prices for those items are
uncharacteristically low. is this site current?

[dirtdigger88]

the catalog prices for those items are
uncharacteristically low. is this site current?

no- I think it is several years old- but the pictures and specs are hard to beat-

some where I read on the site that they were no longer taking orders-

Jason

[Samster]

the catalog prices for those items are
uncharacteristically low. is this site current?

I think that site's been inactive/down for some time now...

-sam

[OldDog]

Thanks Dirt. Good info, though it lacks the reach measurement.

I have my fit dialed in to a comfortable position using Cinelli 64 bars. Old school, but I like them. And they look right on the lugged bikes I use them on. Hey, posing points count for something! Problem is with Campy 9/10 Ergo levers, the transition is not the best, and getting them up high enough for a nearly flat ramp from bar top to the hood, leaves the levers angling outward a bit. That is without angling the drops down to a silly useless angle.

I have a 3T Forma anotomical bar with Campy 10 levers, riding the tops and the hoods is heaven, the drops are the pits. And mostly, the reach is about a full inch further out on this bar, compared to the 64's

On the website, the Ovals in the classic bend look to have a pretty long reach. Again, no spec for reach.

So - what classic bend bar is out there, that gives you the flat ramp on top for Campy levers and still has areach of about 83 - 85 mm (a rough measurement I took for the 64's.

The question is a tall order but I know one of you knowlegable cats know this off the top of your head, it falls into a fit/sizing issue. Thanks.

[e-RICHIE]

Thanks Dirt. Good info, though it lacks the reach measurement.

I have my fit dialed in to a comfortable position using Cinelli 64 bars. Old school, but I like them. And they look right on the lugged bikes I use them on. Hey, posing points count for something! Problem is with Campy 9/10 Ergo levers, the transition is not the best, and getting them up high enough for a nearly flat ramp from bar top to the hood, leaves the levers angling outward a bit. That is without angling the drops down to a silly useless angle.

I have a 3T Forma anotomical bar with Campy 10 levers, riding the tops and the hoods is heaven, the drops are the pits. And mostly, the reach is about a full inch further out on this bar, compared to the 64's

On the website, the Ovals in the classic bend look to have a pretty long reach. Again, no spec for reach.

So - what classic bend bar is out there, that gives you the flat ramp on top for Campy levers and still has areach of about 83 - 85 mm (a rough measurement I took for the 64's.

The question is a tall order but I know one of you knowlegable cats know this off the top of your head, it falls into a fit/sizing issue. Thanks.


i use the r700 and it's "like" a cinelli 64.
here's an album i made last year:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobbesrs/album?.dir=a93a&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobbesrs/my_photos
are these badass or what?????!!

[ERDR]

i agree about the ritchey classic bar. i had to look far and wide to find it but really like it. regarding the oval stem, i gave mine to vax because it was a little short for me. my only gripe, which is a little petty, is that the reversed plate is a little awkward to get at with an allen wrench. granted, unless one travels frequently, it is just a hassle with the initial set up.

[OldDog]

Niice...who sells them?

[Climb01742]

don't deda newton shallows and 215s do everything the oval bar does? this isn't meant as an argumentative statement at all, but i'm just having a hard time figuring out what the fuss is over the oval bar? easton ec90 pro bend is basically the same as well, but in carbon. :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

don't deda newton shallows and 215s do everything the oval bar does? this isn't meant as an argumentative statement at all, but i'm just having a hard time figuring out what the fuss is over the oval bar? easton ec90 pro bend is basically the same as well, but in carbon. :beer:


fuss?

this thread stemmed from a press release.
you're in marketing; don't you want a fuss
made when you write copy?

personally, regarding the product line in question,
oval concepts is superior to deda. that is why i
would use it whether we were sponsored or not.
e-RICHIE©™®

[Climb01742]

fuss?

this thread stemmed from a press release.
you're in marketing; don't you want a fuss
made when you write copy?

personally, regarding the product line in question,
oval concepts is superior to deda. that is why i
would use it whether we were sponsored or not.
e-RICHIE©™®

may i ask how they are superior? again, asked not combatively, but simply curiously. merci.

[e-RICHIE]

may i ask how they are superior? again, asked not combatively, but simply curiously. merci.

try...
gestalt.
the company make the stem - follow the
thread, and also recount all the others wrt
to cnc-ed stems, etcetera. this alone drives
up the stock in my book. in any event, the
message i get from the oval concepts corporate
culture gives me the warm fuzzies. for me,
that makes it better.
e-RICHIE©™®

[Climb01742]

try...
gestalt.
the company make the stem - follow the
thread, and also recount all the others wrt
to cnc-ed stems, etcetera. this alone drives
up the stock in my book. in any event, the
message i get from the oval concepts corporate
culture gives me the warm fuzzies. for me,
that makes it better.
e-RICHIE©™®

i did follow the thread. i can see how the stem could well be superior, gestalt aside. and if gestalt can make a bar better, cool. gestalt can certainly make a company better, serotta being a vivid example as well. hey, it's happy hour. let's be happy!

[e-RICHIE]

i did follow the thread. i can see how the stem could well be superior, gestalt aside. and if gestalt can make a bar better, cool. gestalt can certainly make a company better, serotta being a vivid example as well. hey, it's happy hour. let's be happy!


cheers imho, okay?
e-RICHIE©™®

[fstrthnu]

Yo Bro's! IMHO Deda's are MP Yo. The one nut wonder uses those cheezy GCC Bars Yo. IMHO OVAL CONCEPTS Yo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless You ride a Trek... then You might as will go with the MP Deda's.
Happy Hour?
*** IS THAT YO???????????

[Keith A]

e-RICHIE,

It seems that the one thing that is lacking for Oval Concepts is the distribution of their products. I can easily purchase a Ritchey WCS Classic handlebar and with a little effort can get the Deda's in either the deep or shallow classic round design, however it appears (although I haven't tried yet) a bit more difficult to get my hands on a Oval Concept handlebar.

[fstrthnu]

Yo Bro's! IMHO Deda's are MP Yo. The one nut wonder uses those cheezy GCC Bars Yo. IMHO OVAL CONCEPTS Yo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless You ride a Trek... then You might as will go with the MP Deda's.
Happy Hour?
*** IS THAT YO???????????
For all You who don't know it:
IMHO is In My Humble Opinion
MP is Mad Painful
the one nut wonder is Lance Armstrong
GCC is Greedy Conservative Capitalist

BTW I'm fstrthnu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Climb01742]

cheers imho, okay?
e-RICHIE©™®

absolutely cheers! i was just messin' with ya, wizard of the torch. twizzlers for all!

[Spicoli]

I dont think you can go wrong with either company, or for that matter most of the "popular" brands of bar/stem combo's. IMO, not much difference between any of them. I do think it is one of those things where more is generally not better. Simple makes much more sense on certain area's of components IMO. Bars, stems and seatposts are area's I personally try to avoid wonder tech materials that claim to change peoples lives. Carbon bars and stems dont now and probably never will sit right with me. Most makers make the prettiest and IMO most funtional curves on a bicycle into something that looks like it was run over by a truck. The first thing I personally look at when oogling bikes is the type/curve of the bars and how they may or may not fit, then I move on to the rest of the ride. Its just how I see things. Curvy with options to move around, not wiggly with one spot and compromises. Just my veiws on bar fit? I always had a hard time moving from spot to spot with anatomics. Same deal with saddles, being able to move around ussually = comfort to me.

More useless opinion,

[taz-t]

.

[fstrthnu]

I dont think you can go wrong with either company, or for that matter most of the "popular" brands of bar/stem combo's. IMO, not much difference between any of them. I do think it is one of those things where more is generally not better. Simple makes much more sense on certain area's of components IMO. Bars, stems and seatposts are area's I personally try to avoid wonder tech materials that claim to change peoples lives. Carbon bars and stems dont now and probably never will sit right with me. Most makers make the prettiest and IMO most funtional curves on a bicycle into something that looks like it was run over by a truck. The first thing I personally look at when oogling bikes is the type/curve of the bars and how they may or may not fit, then I move on to the rest of the ride. Its just how I see things. Curvy with options to move around, not wiggly with one spot and compromises. Just my veiws on bar fit? I always had a hard time moving from spot to spot with anatomics. Same deal with saddles, being able to move around ussually = comfort to me.

More useless opinion,

The only thing useless is the Deda Bar IMHO.

[e-RICHIE]

e-RICHIE,

It seems that the one thing that is lacking for Oval Concepts is the distribution of their products. I can easily purchase a Ritchey WCS Classic handlebar and with a little effort can get the Deda's in either the deep or shallow classic round design, however it appears (although I haven't tried yet) a bit more difficult to get my hands on a Oval Concept handlebar.


off the record, i am stocking the 135mm drop in
40cm and 42cm widths, measured c-c. you recall
what i said about sinatra? you need these!
e-RICHIE©™®

[Grant McLean]

Bars, stems and seatposts are area's I personally try to avoid wonder tech materials that claim to change peoples lives. Carbon bars and stems dont now and probably never will sit right with me.


I'm sure this has been talked to death (no pun intended) already, but what's the reasoning here? Is a bike with a carbon downtube ok, but not a seatpost? I don't think carbon bars are particularly complicated to make strong and safe. I've sure seen a lot of broken aluminum bars in the shop I work at over the years. I'd trust a name brand carbon bar with my life, at least as much as a crank manufacturer, and nobody seems worried about putting an FSA carbon crank on their bike, at least not from the vast numbers they seem to be selling.

Grant

[Roy E. Munson]

The only thing useless is the Deda Bar IMHO.

shape? design? weight? ...?

[PeterW]

off the record, i am stocking the 135mm drop in
40cm and 42cm widths, measured c-c. you recall
what i said about sinatra? you need these!
e-RICHIE©™®

for us bigger guys and wannabe Belgians?

[dirtdigger88]

The only thing useless is the Deda Bar IMHO.


Useless as

http://gillbrooks.com/italy/roma/boars-tits.jpg

Jason

[fstrthnu]

The only thing useless is the Deda Bar IMHO.

shape? design? weight? ...?

Gay? Gay? Gay?...? (not that there's anything wrong with that)

Keepin' it real in the 617

[e-RICHIE]

for us bigger guys and wannabe Belgians?



e-RICHIE's h'bar-a-rama©™® awaits the next boat.
e-RICHIE©™®

[Grant McLean]

i had my own personal jesus moment on a "lightweight,
cnc-ed stem" about 4 years ago (search the archives...)
and swore never to return to that place and time. when
i called the manufacturer to complain, their primary comment
was "...folks want 'lightweight'. we know our stuff is borderline
unsafe. the pro teams have staff which cares for the parts.
the public doesn't. if we don't sell to the public, someone
else will, and we need that business."
as far as i am concerned, for stems, forged al is best.
e-RICHIE©™®

This is a good reminder, Richie-san.

Sometimes the "best choice" in a component is not the "most expensive"
or lightest weight. With so many options these days, we enthusiasts
often feel compelled to buy the "top of the line" to show ourselves to
be the 'Cognisenti' that we know we are.

Harken back to the day when "expensive" meant simply high quality.
Today, there are lots of products designed for very specific applications,
even though any one can buy it and bolt it on a home, doesn't mean
you should.

But, that said I don't like blanket statements like "carbon bars are crap".
or CNC stems are no good. There are lots of different carbon bars out there.
and lots of different CNC stems. Some good, some not.

Like all things, it's about knowing the difference, or finding someone who does.

As some dude said somewhere: "because technology alone is a poor
substitute for experience"

Wise words.


-Gee

[Spicoli]

I'm sure this has been talked to death (no pun intended) already, but what's the reasoning here? Is a bike with a carbon downtube ok, but not a seatpost? I don't think carbon bars are particularly complicated to make strong and safe. I've sure seen a lot of broken aluminum bars in the shop I work at over the years. I'd trust a name brand carbon bar with my life, at least as much as a crank manufacturer, and nobody seems worried about putting an FSA carbon crank on their bike, at least not from the vast numbers they seem to be selling.

Grant
I have seen and had a few catastophic failures of bars,stems and posts. I mostly think it is the diameter of the application. They are usually 27.2 or less and the fact you are clamping a small area that IMO causes stress risers which cause failures, frames dont really have that? 31.8 carbons get a little thin and thats another thing all together for me. I have bent alu. bars but never seen them snapped like carbon. Also it is an area that gets abused and should be changed often. Pitching a set of $300 carbon bars after a year or two hurts. Currently I do have carbon posts on my bikes but I mostly dont see a need for it with bars and stems. Companies just try and save weight in these spots that they probably should not. I am sure there are awesome carbon bars out there, but I just dont trust most for some reason, it is a place where I dont think you get that much benefit and the costs speak for themself. :confused:

info getting more useless, :D

[e-RICHIE]

This is a good reminder, Richie-san.

Sometimes the "best choice" in a component is not the "most expensive"
or lightest weight. With so many options these days, we enthusiasts
often feel compelled to buy the "top of the line" to show ourselves to
be the 'Cognisenti' that we know we are.

Harken back to the day when "expensive" meant simply high quality.
Today, there are lots of products designed for very specific applications,
even though any one can buy it and bolt it on a home, doesn't mean
you should.

But, that said I don't like blanket statements like "carbon bars are crap".

or CNC stems are no good. There are lots of different carbon bars out there.
and lots of different CNC stems. Some good, some not.

Like all things, it's about knowing the difference, or finding someone who does.

As some dude said somewhere: "because technology alone is a poor
substitute for experience"

Wise words.


-Gee

ah - geesawa.
someone has watered the flower, i see.
as far as this goes:

"But, that said I don't like blanket statements like "carbon bars are crap". or CNC stems are no good. There are lots of different carbon bars out there. and lots of different CNC stems. Some good, some not."

my opinion mimics the suppliers of said items:
However, both your protection and the protection of this product
is based upon its proper installation. Oval Concepts strongly recommends
that you have this product installed by a professional bicycle mechanic.
This instruction sheet should then be returned to the consumer
and retained for future reference.

the above was oval concept's text, yet i firmly believe that
the average consumer does not have the basic set skills with
which to discern what is "proper" and what is not wrt to these
nonferrous and überlightweight parts.
e-RICHIE©™®

[Dr. Doofus]

Gay? Gay? Gay?...? (not that there's anything wrong with that)

Keepin' it real in the 617


yo

deda's pimp my 'cross

respect tha 215 sucka

my 7-0-4 homie T-Fizzle can make yo world MP from jan to oct

yo

explorer like Dora these swipers can't swipe me

my whole aura's so MEAN in my white t-shirt


oodf

[Spicoli]

yo

deda's pimp my 'cross

respect tha 215 sucka

my 7-0-4 homie T-Fizzle can make yo world MP from jan to oct

yo

explorer like Dora these swipers can't swipe me

my whole aura's so MEAN in my white t-shirt


oodf
WORD KiiiiiiiiiiDD!!!!!!!!
I down wit da DOOF son, aw-ite

[Grant McLean]

I have seen and had a few catastophic failures of bars,stems and posts. I mostly think it is the diameter of the application. They are usually 27.2 or less and the fact you are clamping a small area that IMO causes stress risers which cause failures, frames dont really have that? 31.8 carbons get a little thin and thats another thing all together for me. I have bent alu. bars but never seen them snapped like carbon. Also it is an area that gets abused and should be changed often. Pitching a set of $300 carbon bars after a year or two hurts. Currently I do have carbon posts on my bikes but I mostly dont see a need for it with bars and stems. Companies just try and save weight in these spots that they probably should not. I am sure there are awesome carbon bars out there, but I just dont trust most for some reason, it is a place where I dont think you get that much benefit and the costs speak for themself. :confused:

info getting more useless, :D



Some of my confidence in Carbon comes from seeing destruction testing
at Cannondale and Rocky Mountain, Devinci and seeing documents and talking
to product mangers from Easton, and Specialized.

If anyone is interested, have a look at some of the tech stuff at Easton

http://www.eastonbike.com/TECH_FAQ/tech_techbull.html

Carbon is strong. It can take 1,000 k/si to break a carbon bar, compared to
78 ksi for an aluminum one. Campy carbon cranks have 35 times the
fatigue life of record alumnum ones. Well designed and manufactured carbon
parts are awesome in strength to weight ratio.
Poorly designed or manufactured ones are not, and can be bad news.

I think it makes sense to talk to people who have experience selling and
using this stuff, and not necessarily assume it's all the same.

The strength of carbon parts can have a down side. If you crash hard,
and nothing bends, is everything OK? At least with a bent steel fork,
or a buckled toptube/down tube you know where you stand. When I
see cracked or broken carbon stuff, I wonder what really happened,
the way most people react when they see a bent Steel fork, and the
dude says it happen "just riding along". Ya, sure.

_G

[Grant McLean]

my opinion mimics the suppliers of said items:
However, both your protection and the protection of this product
is based upon its proper installation. Oval Concepts strongly recommends
that you have this product installed by a professional bicycle mechanic.
This instruction sheet should then be returned to the consumer
and retained for future reference.

the above was oval concept's text, yet i firmly believe that
the average consumer does not have the basic set skills with
which to discern what is "proper" and what is not wrt to these
nonferrous and überlightweight parts.
e-RICHIE©™®

I agree totally, and being a bikeshop guy myself, it could keep me up at night
thinking about what people are out there doing.

Should or does it take a degree in composite engineering to buy a bike?
I don't think so. I don't think there are tons of bike parts out there flying
into pieces becuase they are too light, or too carbony.

BUT... I hope things go cautiously forward from here. Now that stuff is
already really light, lets hope the manufacturers concentrate on making
stuff really really safe and strong.

I mean, how many home mechanics have a torque wrench? (Or dare I ask, how many bikeshops?)

The bike industry is in a new place, product safety wise. Now that
Joe Average can by the Tour de Whatever winning carbon wunderbike,
(on the web, and put it together at home, yikes!)

... we've come a long way from 32 hole rims, 531 tubes and 5speed Nouvo Record.

But why is all this "hi-tech" stuff selling so well?

Shouldn't everyone just go buy a Rivendell, and we can all sleep at night?

_G

[e-RICHIE]

I agree totally, and being a bikeshop guy myself, it could keep me up at night
thinking about what people are out there doing.

Should or does it take a degree in composite engineering to buy a bike?
I don't think so. I don't think there are tons of bike parts out there flying
into pieces becuase they are too light, or too carbony.

BUT... I hope things go cautiously forward from here. Now that stuff is
already really light, lets hope the manufacturers concentrate on making
stuff really really safe and strong.

I mean, how many home mechanics have a torque wrench? (Or dare I ask, how many bikeshops?)

The bike industry is in a new place, product safety wise. Now that
Joe Average can by the Tour de Whatever winning carbon wunderbike,
(on the web, and put it together at home, yikes!)

... we've come a long way from 32 hole rims, 531 tubes and 5speed Nouvo Record.

But why is all this "hi-tech" stuff selling so well?

Shouldn't everyone just go buy a Rivendell, and we can all sleep at night?

_G


the industry has gone too far and crossed a line
wrt to safety and reliability. stuff that's designed
for professional use only is being sold at the mall
as well as by online discounters. it's a classic case
of the tail wagging the dog, and i don't mean the
tail than sinatra was getting.
hey - thanks for reading.
e-RICHIE©™®

[Matt Barkley]

Sorry if I am repeating what someone else may have posted - I didn't catch anyone saying that Ritchey has a non-anatomic out now. :beer: Cheers - Matt

[Grant McLean]

the industry has gone too far and crossed a line
wrt to safety and reliability. stuff that's designed
for professional use only is being sold at the mall
as well as by online discounters. it's a classic case
of the tail wagging the dog, and i don't mean the
tail than sinatra was getting.
hey - thanks for reading.
e-RICHIE©™®

I think you can make a case that you are correct, the safely line can be crossed
today by a general consumer. And that was hard to do 10 years ago.

Parts shouldn't break under hard use, and it seems like there are some
examples that this can happen. Choosing the "right" parts is now more
important that ever, and that really shouldn't be the case.

It seems to me that experience is the first line of defence today.
It's up to the individaul not to do something stupid, like buy a set of carbon
rim wheels, put them on with no tubular glue, and go riding in the rain
in traffic without cork brake pads. Whould I do this? No. But it's possible
that just about anyone with enough cash and no experience could.
But does that make the parts "unsafe"?

It's not just the bike industry too. I think the general public think nothing
of buying a "professional" anything. The logic is that it's good enough for
the Pro's it must be the best choice for me, the armchair user. Isn't this
exactly of opposite of how it should work? Shouldn't people think "whoa,
hold on, that's designed for the needs of a pro, not my needs"?

Is a formula 1 car safe? They are really safe, especally if you don't hit
anything with it...

The irony is, if every inexperienced cyclist just bought a Centaur or Ultegra bike,
with 32 hole wheels, and a 4 lb frame... would their cycling experience be so terrible?

G

[vaxn8r]

....
The irony is, if every inexperienced cyclist just bought a Centaur or Ultegra bike,
with 32 hole wheels, and a 4 lb frame... would their cycling experience be so terrible?

G
That's a great line and made me laugh. But as I thought about it I began to wonder about the validity. I'm not convinced there is a direct correlation between weight and longevity until you get to the rediculous extremes. Some things are just poorly made, poorly welded, or nowadays, maybe poorly glued.

I recall those frame testing devices where they put the frames through hundreds of thousands of stress cycles. IIRC the ones that failed first were the heavier steel and ti frames. I think they eventually shut the machine off for the Trek and the CDale. Likewise, is Centaur made better than Chorus/Record because it's heavier or is it just heavier?

[jerk]

for anyone who remembers (and the jerk doesn't thankfully,) there was alot of dangerous garbage hoisted on the consumer during the bike boom in the '70s....don't try to tell the jerk that a mad painful flanders that some bike mechanic had to straighten the chainrings with a hammer and pliers was any "safer" than the latest piece of asian plastic garbage.....anyway.
nontheless, you can buy the latest race equipment now, and you shouldn't work on it unless you know what you're doing and have the right tools....then again you didn't have the right tools at home to face that 1992 eddy merckx 753 frame either.....

what e-richie says is right-the line has been crossed and you can buy some pretty hurting stuff you have no business working on and neither does the shop rat who gets paid 8 bucks an hour.

follow this dictum: if your mechanic doesn't have a snap-on torque wrench you should find another mechanic.

[Grant McLean]

That's a great line and made me laugh. But as I thought about it I began to wonder about the validity. I'm not convinced there is a direct correlation between weight and longevity until you get to the rediculous extremes. Some things are just poorly made, poorly welded, or nowadays, maybe poorly glued.

I recall those frame testing devices where they put the frames through hundreds of thousands of stress cycles. IIRC the ones that failed first were the heavier steel and ti frames. I think they eventually shut the machine off for the Trek and the CDale. Likewise, is Centaur made better than Chorus/Record because it's heavier or is it just heavier?

Hey Vaxn8r

Your point is valid. I just used that example because it side-steps
the carbon issue, and i think everyone agrees that an Ultegra group
or a modern 4 lb frame shouldn't be falling apart under even abusive
conditions.

You really are making the same point that I was earlier.
Good stuff can be perfectly safe, strong, light and very durable
in the long run. The question is... should _every_ cyclist have to know
about which ones are good or aren't before they buy a new bike part?
Are we aware of the risks? Or is it only after something goes totally
wrong that you stop and wonder how it got to that point.

Inexperienced cyclists on 13 lb bikes? Was that a good idea?


-G

[vaxn8r]

Nope. Point taken.

[e-RICHIE]

Oh - by the way...
I still love my Oval Concepts h'bars and stems.
Seatposts, too! Hey - thanks for reading!!!!!!!!
e-RICHIE©™®

[davep]

Among its virtues, the Oval stem is one of the few that still are available in silver. I cannot tell from the web site, but does the hbar come in silver also?

[Grant McLean]

Looks like the R700 classic bars are black only. The post comes in silver.

Here's a question... why a black face plate on the silver stem,
and a silver face plate on the black stem?

ITM puts a silver face plate on some of their black stems too,
'sup wit dat?

Symbol of racial harmony, maybe?

-g

[e-RICHIE]

Looks like the R700 classic bars are black only. The post comes in silver.

Here's a question... why a black face plate on the silver stem,
and a silver face plate on the black stem?

ITM puts a silver face plate on some of their black stems too,
'sup wit dat?

Symbol of racial harmony, maybe?

-g


it's more easily identified that way.
-like the red o in MOBIL
corporate identity, and all that!

[fstrthnu]

In case You missed it Yo.
http://velonews.com/tech/report/articles/9282.0.html
You can put Your MP Livestrong bracelets back on Yo cuz I have left this thread.

[jerk]

huh?

the jerk is confused.

[classic1]

Did anyone ever use these? Deeper and longer reach than the 65's, classic bend with the curved tops. I'd just about kill for a pair....

[Dr. Doofus]

In case You missed it Yo.
http://velonews.com/tech/report/articles/9282.0.html
You can put Your MP Livestrong bracelets back on Yo cuz I have left this thread.

yo

movin too fast for this crew

word to you haters:

fstrthnu

is

mad ups to the 617



keepin it re-zak up in this p-zak,

Dr. Doofus

[manet]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA AH AH AH HA HA
HA HA HA HA the 617 HA AH AH HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA H A HA HA H AH HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA A HA HAA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[Dr. Doofus]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA AH AH AH HA HA
HA HA HA HA the 617 HA AH AH HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA H A HA HA H AH HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA A HA HAA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

617 is all about:

[steelisreal]

let's not forget the stem...
few companies make a light, high-style, 4-bolt face plate,
and FORGED-NOT CNC-ed stem to go with any h'bars, much
less the good ones. the oval concepts r700 is just that stem.
i've been using mine for two seasons and, you guessed it,
i'm gettin' more tail than sinatra.
e-RICHIE©™®
Ritchey makes forged stems and they have a classic road handlebar too.

[manet]

617 is all about:

a tad more:

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/watteau/i/pierrot.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

Ritchey makes forged stems and they have a classic road handlebar too.


i knew that.
e-RITCHEY©™®