Time trialing position: then and now

[fiamme red]

The Nature Valley Grand Prix had a "Merckx-style" time trial this year.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/06/news/nature-valley-riders-weigh-in-on-merits-of-merckx-style-tt_290824

One race directive that has met with mixed reviews among riders and directors is the race’s ‘Merckx-style’ time trial, which adheres to USA Cycling rule 1M1(h), banning time trial-specific equipment.

Rule 1M1(h) reads: “Time trial events may restrict the competitors to mass-start bicycles in one or more classes, provided that the restriction is stated in the race announcement and technical guide. This includes time trials in stage races.”

Under the ruling, both aero bars and disc wheels are forbidden, while the helmets and frames used in the time trial must be used in all subsequent stages.Here's Tom Zirbel, the national time trial champion, riding the NVGP time trial on his regular race bike:

http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2013/06/ZirbelNVTT613-021-660x440.jpg

He's resting his forearms on the bars, in "imaginary aero bar" mode. But his back is very rounded and he doesn't look as aero as he could be.

Here's the great British time trialist Alf Engers, with much flatter back:

http://www.bikebrothers.co.uk/engers_files/alfscan_pic.jpg

And Franceso Moser in the 1974 Giro time trial:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DBWJCc1Hnfs/ShUXoliZGoI/AAAAAAAAAOc/4hdu8y9qrms/s1600/franceso_moser_2.jpg

Just an interesting comparison, I thought.

[mktng]

its also alot different these days .. when set ups have such a drastic drop from saddle to bars.

i find when im on the attack on my colnago, which is set up more like an old school bike, i look like Engers. Just alot slower :P

[FlashUNC]

Notice the frames both Engers and Moser are on are much, much larger.

Zirbel's bike looks about two sizes too small if you use the other photos as a guide for "proper" fit.

You can definitely see the evolution in position with the primary hand placement now all about the hoods instead of the drops.

[rpm]

My understanding of bike aerodynamics is that narrow trumps low. Zirbel is much narrower on his air bars. Even though they have flatter backs, the old guys are catching more air with their arms and shoulders out wide.

[firerescuefin]

My understanding of bike aerodynamics is that narrow trumps low. Zirbel is much narrower on his air bars. Even though they have flatter backs, the old guys are catching more air with their arms and shoulders out wide.

This

and today's positions are objectively found in the lab. x (position) = the fastest sustainable position...which takes into acccount tidal volume, power production, etc.....vs the past, which was heresay + laps on velodrome. Not taking away from the feats those guys pulled off or how athletic they were.

[Lewis Moon]

This

and today's positions are objectively found in the lab. x (position) = the fastest sustainable position...which takes into acccount tidal volume, power production, etc.....vs the past, which was heresay + laps on velodrome. Not taking away from the feats those guys pulled off or how athletic they were.

Zirbel is also in a modern time trial position on a non-time trial bike. Compromises were made.....
It would probably be edumacating to do a side by side of this photo and one of him in full on TT.

[MattTuck]

This

and today's positions are objectively found in the lab. x (position) = the fastest sustainable position...which takes into acccount tidal volume, power production, etc.....vs the past, which was heresay + laps on velodrome. Not taking away from the feats those guys pulled off or how athletic they were.

there you go, bring science into it! ;)

[sg8357]

Alf Engers probably rode 75m to the TT on the bike you see in the picture.
Bike racing was a working class sport in Britain, with much higher participation
than current racing.

[fiamme red]

Alf Engers probably rode 75m to the TT on the bike you see in the picture.
Bike racing was a working class sport in Britain, with much higher participation
than current racing.Alf Engers was a baker, and he worked the night before his record-breaking 49-24 25-mile time trial until 3 a.m., so that he only got about two hours of sleep before the ride.

[e-RICHIE]

Alf Engers was a baker, and he worked the night before his record-breaking 49-24 25-mile time trial until 3 a.m., so that he only got about two hours of sleep before the ride.

I remember it being nullified because it wasn't the requisite out and back course.

[fiamme red]

I remember it being nullified because it wasn't the requisite out and back course.It was a standard out-and-back, but there was heavy traffic that day. Some at RTTC tried to disqualify him for riding "wide," but after a few weeks they finally validated the record.

http://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2010/12/01/alf-engers-part-ii-the-record-or-i-can-go-fast-if-its-easy/

http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2010/12/13/the-king-alf-engers.html

[ultraman6970]

A little detail... bikes and positions have changed a lot but probably nobody can ride TTs as moser did, in a matter of fact times and average speeds arent that high compared with 30 years ago.

[fuzzalow]

I would venture to guess that the speeds should be higher now than way back then. Anyone who has ridden deep profile rims above 22mph knows they are faster than non-aero box rims.

Anyway, the comment about a reduced frontal area is at the core to all about going faster. As far back as the 1989 TdF, the speed potential of punching a smaller hole in the air was obvious in just looking at the photos:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_leig5svYnN1qdw1kro1_500.jpg

Versus This:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldak4r2e4o1qdw1kro1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId =AKIAI6WLSGT7Y3ET7ADQ&Expires=1371845115&Signature=qZ%2BlD%2FBI%2FTDoNmRL1ehj7h4Wfvo%3D#_=_

Fignon's position, irrespective of the TT funny bike, was not much different than that of Moser from years before. A shame that this race was the sunset of French cycling as a remarkable presence in grand tours.

[e-RICHIE]

It was a standard out-and-back, but there was heavy traffic that day. Some at RTTC tried to disqualify him for riding "wide," but after a few weeks they finally validated the record.

http://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2010/12/01/alf-engers-part-ii-the-record-or-i-can-go-fast-if-its-easy/

http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2010/12/13/the-king-alf-engers.html

I am likely then recalling another record set that was later discounted. The RTTC had one event that, rather than stack the top ten seeded riders every 12th number (races were limited to 120) they had them as the last riders to go off. That made in a drag race for the better racers and gave them an unfair advantage based on the rules then. I remember Engers, Cottingham, Mummery, Ballard, Roach, Jeffries, and some others as if it happened yesterday. We used to go to Bird Brothers once a week to see what was being prepped for the next big events. The south was mad for time trials and the north for road events.

[rando]

Hmm, really don't think you picked the best example to portray modern vs classic ITT racing on a standard road bike. I say this as one of five people who were still spectating when he rolled across the line 1 second in arrears of the guy who wanted it the most. That is who your first picture should have been of to set this up accordingly.

Take that as you will but the general air I picked up on was not that bloody competitive or important. Other than the IAB position there really hasn't been much change to the position the human body can put out power to the pedals in.

I would find it very interesting how you feel the aforementioned IAB would have been received during the golden age? Even with the potholes on that course along the river the road has got to be drastically smoother than those in Europe 50 or more years ago.

[soulspinner]

The second guys chainset (crankset) looks huge.

[wasfast]

If you look at gearing for TT's in the 50's-70's, large gearing was the standard. Cadence was low compared to today overall. Having a 56t front chainring and straight block freewheel was common.

In regard to today, comparing guys like Michael Hutchinson to some one like Al Eggers is more appropriate in terms of time vs equipment. Ryder is effectively riding an ominium compared to a pure TT.

I love TT's and still compete only in those events. While I love the equipment, position optimization etc, from a simplicity standpoint, it would be interesting to not allow different TT and road bike in similar events. Also makes the cost and logistics for a team much better. It doesn't help mfg'rs sell more gear however.

[fuzzalow]

Hmm, really don't think you picked the best example to portray modern vs classic ITT racing on a standard road bike. I say this as one of five people who were still spectating when he rolled across the line 1 second in arrears of the guy who wanted it the most. That is who your first picture should have been of to set this up accordingly.

Take that as you will but the general air I picked up on was not that bloody competitive or important. Other than the IAB position there really hasn't been much change to the position the human body can put out power to the pedals in.

I would find it very interesting how you feel the aforementioned IAB would have been received during the golden age? Even with the potholes on that course along the river the road has got to be drastically smoother than those in Europe 50 or more years ago.

If you are referring to my post and your view that this was not a relevent point as they were not riding a standard road bike. Perhaps I was not clear in what parallels I was drawing from classic to modern day.

Fignon's position, irrespective as to his use of a TT bike, was virtually identical to that of Moser's TTing in the hooks on a standard road bike from years earlier.

Zirbel's position, irrespective as to his use of a standard roadbike, was derivative of LeMond's TTing position in adopting a similar posture in his attempt to reduce his frontal area.

[oldpotatoe]

If you look at gearing for TT's in the 50's-70's, large gearing was the standard. Cadence was low compared to today overall. Having a 56t front chainring and straight block freewheel was common.

In regard to today, comparing guys like Michael Hutchinson to some one like Al Eggers is more appropriate in terms of time vs equipment. Ryder is effectively riding an ominium compared to a pure TT.

I love TT's and still compete only in those events. While I love the equipment, position optimization etc, from a simplicity standpoint, it would be interesting to not allow different TT and road bike in similar events. Also makes the cost and logistics for a team much better. It doesn't help mfg'rs sell more gear however.

Being an old fart, I would like to see equipment be less of a factor in bike racing in general. More level playing field and less well funded teams could still be competitive..with the understanding that in the peloton, equipment doesn't really mean that much, unless it breaks.

BUT like car racing, win on sunday, sell on monday.

[Mark McM]

A little detail... bikes and positions have changed a lot but probably nobody can ride TTs as moser did, in a matter of fact times and average speeds arent that high compared with 30 years ago.

Is this the same Moser that has admitted to using blood doping to break Eddy Merckx's hour record 30 years ago?

[Lewis Moon]

Being an old fart, I would like to see equipment be less of a factor in bike racing in general. More level playing field and less well funded teams could still be competitive..with the understanding that in the peloton, equipment doesn't really mean that much, unless it breaks.

BUT like car racing, win on sunday, sell on monday.

Agreed. A weight limit wouldn't work because bulders would just sling a lead slug under the BB. Real cost is a hard thing to track, requiring a cheaper material like steel would just push builders into exotic designs and manufacturing techniques....what is needed is a design criteria and a certification process.
That would stunt inovation and whatever little trickle down we get.

Let the pros use $20,000 wheels. Perhaps what is needed is an investment cap on teams. You can spend X on your team. Do you spend it on gear or athletes?
...but I digress...

[fiamme red]

I found this page on how to circumvent the "Merckx-style" rules. The bike pictured at the top wouldn't be suitable for the NVGP t.t., because riders have to use the same frame for all stages of the race.

A good point is raised about the safety hazards of the "imaginary aero bars."

http://teamglobalbike.com/the-bike-that-beat-the-merckx-style-time-trial/

6. Handlebar: Mass start rules say that you have to have regular drop bars with no bolt on extensions. Your best bet here is to set your handlebars at the height of your elbow pads on your TT bike and ride with your fore-arms resting on the tops of your bars. This is a “virtual TT bar” set up. There is nothing for you to hold onto with your hands. Adding some additional padding under your bar tape is a good idea. You can even shape that padding with bumps that will keep your elbows closer together.

I find the virtual TT bar set up effective, but difficult to get any leverage to stabilize my body so I end up losing some power over longer distances. My solution to this was to get a super narrow drop bar. I found this Salsa that is 34mm wide! I mounted the shifters rotated inward as far as possible and rotated the bars up to create a nice little cradle for my fore-arms. I have two positions with this set up, hands on the horns of the shifters when I need maximum control or I can slide my arms farther forward and have a nice long comfortable stable platform for my arms to rest on. This allows me to achieve a body position very similar to my normal TT set up...

Why Merckx style rules don’t work: Ok, so the change in style of TT did accomplish one goal. Participation in the TT went up a good bit this year. The event was more available to participants and more contested it. If that is all the change is evaluated on, then it was a success. Let’s look at the other points. For simplification of equipment, it was a failure. Many people decided to purchase deep rim rear wheels since a rear disc was not allowed. Many also purchased different helmets that could accept a cover. 2 of the top 3 riders converted their normal TT bike to a drop bar set up (I’m sure there were more, but were un-observed by me). 4 of the top 5 finishers wore helmet covers. All of the top riders adopted the “virtual aero bar” position with fore-arms on the tops. How much control do these riders have over their bikes on a course open to cars, other riders, and road hazards?

[Lewis Moon]

I found this page on how to circumvent the "Merckx-style" rules. The bike pictured at the top wouldn't be suitable for the NVGP t.t., because riders have to use the same frame for all stages of the race.

A good point is raised about the safety hazards of the "imaginary aero bars."

http://teamglobalbike.com/the-bike-that-beat-the-merckx-style-time-trial/

Thing is; I've seen pros doing this in breakaway pacelines in big races.

[fiamme red]

Thing is; I've seen pros doing this in breakaway pacelines in big races.It's ironic that this is the result of the UCI banning Cinelli Spinaci for safety reasons.

http://www.cinelli.it/EN/spinaci/storia/