11 speed chain questions

[oliver1850]

A friend is having problems with his Chorus 11 bike. It's slow to upshift from the middle cogs to smaller ones, and the chain runs off the bottom pulley at times. The bike was built up all new last summer and has worked nicely, now has 4500 miles on it. I haven't seen it to look it over or measure the chain, but could this be a wear related issue?

What kind of chain life are people getting from Campagnolo 11 chains?

[AngryScientist]

i dont even measure chain life anymore.

2k miles and i replace 11-speed chains.

at over 4k, i bet its shot.

[cfox]

agree with Angry. Some think it's wasteful, but I chuck chains at 1,500-2,000 miles no matter what they look like. I don't measure either. I keep my chains in pretty good shape, too. My cassettes and chainrings seem to last forever this way.

[AngryScientist]

My cassettes and chainrings seem to last forever this way.

exactly the way i look at it.

[Dave]

Almost certainly the chain should be changed. With the best maintenance, I'd expect not much more than 4,000 miles from an 11 speed chain. You won't much elongation with a decently maintained Campy chain, but the rollers are probably quite worn and the side clearance is probably excessive. New-chain skip with a new chain is quite likely. In that case, you've wasted 2/3 of your cassette life by using one chain for too long.

Chain wear is rarely the cause of the problem you describe. Most likely, it's cable friction. You could trying squiritng some spray lube into the housings, but replacing the right side housing and cable would be the best idea.

As for tossing chains at 2,000 miles or less, that's quite a waste. I can take 3 chains and alternate their every 2,000 miles use to get twice that mileage from each chain.

No cassette lasts "forever", particularly if it has any Ti cogs that see much use. If you buy 6 chains and get 12,000 miles from the chains and cassette, you've wasted enough money to buy a new Chorus cassette. In other words, I avoid buying those 3 extra chains and get the same 12,000 miles of use as those tossing chains every 2,000 miles.

[Black Dog]

i dont even measure chain life anymore.

2k miles and i replace 11-speed chains.

at over 4k, i bet its shot.

Based on what? A chain is shot when it measures beyond 1% elongation, not before and not at some arbitrary distance. There are a constellation of factors that effect the wear of a chain and the only way to be sure is to measure. For the record, I have been able to get beyond 8000km on a 11 speed campy chorus chain. With less than 0.75% elongation. A worn chain usually has little effect on shifting as long as it is matched with the cassette that it wore with.

[ronf100]

Use this info from Campy on when to replace a Campy 11 speed chain. A caliper makes measuring easy.

[oliver1850]

Seems the consensus is that the chain is likely shot. This thread has got me wondering when I last replaced a chain on one of my own bikes because it was worn out. It may have been 20 years ago.

I don't see how cable friction could cause the chain to run off the bottom pulley, although that and the shifting could be two totally seperate issues. The shifting problem alone is certainly consistent with cable friction.

Any ideas on the pulley issue?

[oldpotatoe]

A friend is having problems with his Chorus 11 bike. It's slow to upshift from the middle cogs to smaller ones, and the chain runs off the bottom pulley at times. The bike was built up all new last summer and has worked nicely, now has 4500 miles on it. I haven't seen it to look it over or measure the chain, but could this be a wear related issue?

What kind of chain life are people getting from Campagnolo 11 chains?

Probably worn out along with maybe the pulleys. If it's slow to upshift, could be in need of new housing as well..use 5mm housing at the rear der, not the 4mm housing.

Also check der hanger alignment.\

Also a clean BB guide comes to mind.

For a well maintained chain, not a lot of cross chaining, no big guys, always climbing the in big ring..same 'life' as 10s or 9s chains. 11s chains aren't automatically weaker nor more prone to wearing out..all other things being equal, another old cyclists tale.

[Dave]

Based on what? A chain is shot when it measures beyond 1% elongation, not before and not at some arbitrary distance. There are a constellation of factors that effect the wear of a chain and the only way to be sure is to measure. For the record, I have been able to get beyond 8000km on a 11 speed campy chorus chain. With less than 0.75% elongation. A worn chain usually has little effect on shifting as long as it is matched with the cassette that it wore with.

Unfortunately, Campy chains don't follow that rule, when it comes to wear. Campy chains tend to elongate very little - properly measured between the pins with a precision 12" rule or a precise full-length measurement. Despite little elongation, the rollers and plates wear at about the same rate as other brands. I've used a Campy 10 chain for 6,000 miles and measured .15% elongation, but the chain was totally shot, with severely worn rollers and side clearance that was nearly twice that of a new chain. Using that single chain on a new cassette also wore one of the cogs enough to cause new-chain skip.

The space between two rollers is in the .200-.205 range, when a Campy chain is new. I alternate to a new chain when that increases by .015-.020 and trash the chain when the spacing increases by .035-.040. Campy's wear measurement method is similar to mine, but it is NOT a measure of elongation. Most of that measurement is roller wear. If you toss chain when Campy suggests, you get about half the life out of them. It's smarter to keep the chain and alternate to a new one at that point. Collect 3 or more used chains and alternate their use more frequently to get about twice the mileage from them.

[Dave]

How do you use 5mm housing on a 11 speed shifter, when the hole in the shifter body is not that large?

I've had good luck with genuine Campy housing and also Shimano 4mm.

I agree that the RD alignment should be checked. That could be the entire problem with the shifting.

[oldpotatoe]

How do you use 5mm housing on a 11 speed shifter, when the hole in the shifter body is not that large?

I've had good luck with genuine Campy housing and also Shimano 4mm.

I agree that the RD alignment should be checked. That could be the entire problem with the shifting.

As I mentioned, back by the rear der..not at the shifter. I use Jagwire 4mm and 5mm housing..brass ferrules at the RD and at the frame.

[oliver1850]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'd already told him to replace the chain and check the pulleys for wear, dirt and lubrication. He swears the RD has not ever been bumped, and the bike has always shifted fine until very recently.

I'm interested to hear if the problems go away with the new chain, or if he has added to them with the chain skipping on worn out cogs.

Just got an email from him saying everything is fine after changing the chain.

[buldogge]

Mark...It's a good thing I subscribe to your bike rotation methods (lite version), as I don't have to deal with wearing out chains very often either! ;)

-Mark in St. Louis

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Probably worn out along with maybe the pulleys. If it's slow to upshift, could be in need of new housing as well..use 5mm housing at the rear der, not the 4mm housing.

Also check der hanger alignment.\

Also a clean BB guide comes to mind.

For a well maintained chain, not a lot of cross chaining, no big guys, always climbing the in big ring..same 'life' as 10s or 9s chains. 11s chains aren't automatically weaker nor more prone to wearing out..all other things being equal, another old cyclists tale.

So, how many miles can be expected, on average, with an 11 Speed chain?

[Tony T]

So, how many miles can be expected, on average, with an 11 Speed chain?

Between 2,000 and 5,000 depending on the conditions of use and on the frequency and quality of maintenance operations.
So if you ride by the shore (with a lot of sand blowing about) you'll need to replace at the lower end of the range.

[kramnnim]

Those of you replacing chains every 2k...I'd gladly buy them from from you if you're just throwing them away.

[Black Dog]

Unfortunately, Campy chains don't follow that rule, when it comes to wear. Campy chains tend to elongate very little - properly measured between the pins with a precision 12" rule or a precise full-length measurement. Despite little elongation, the rollers and plates wear at about the same rate as other brands. I've used a Campy 10 chain for 6,000 miles and measured .15% elongation, but the chain was totally shot, with severely worn rollers and side clearance that was nearly twice that of a new chain. Using that single chain on a new cassette also wore one of the cogs enough to cause new-chain skip.

The space between two rollers is in the .200-.205 range, when a Campy chain is new. I alternate to a new chain when that increases by .015-.020 and trash the chain when the spacing increases by .035-.040. Campy's wear measurement method is similar to mine, but it is NOT a measure of elongation. Most of that measurement is roller wear. If you toss chain when Campy suggests, you get about half the life out of them. It's smarter to keep the chain and alternate to a new one at that point. Collect 3 or more used chains and alternate their use more frequently to get about twice the mileage from them.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was, in fact referring to the elongation of the distance between the rollers not the pins.

[Black Dog]

So, how many miles can be expected, on average, with an 11 Speed chain?

There is no average. There is a range, depending on the conditions under which the chain is used.

[oldpotatoe]

So, how many miles can be expected, on average, with an 11 Speed chain?

Same as a 9s or 10s chain under the same conditions. There is no answer to your question, it depends on so much else, as has been mentioned. BUT 11s aren't

-fragile
-prone to breaking
-wear out really quickly

or any other such pablum.

[Black Dog]

I hear a few folks say that rotating chains increases their life span. Can any explain to me how you get more miles out of a chain by taking it off and putting it back on in a rotation with a few other chains? Does the chain need a rest in order to recover and heal? :rolleyes: Seriously, can anyone explain this to me? It seems like a lot of effort to keep track of several chains and and the accumulated miles on each as well as a waste of single use quick links.

[Tony T]

Check after 2k (then every 1k) with this:

http://www.parktool.com/uploads/thumbnails/uploads/products/ffa18a721ab7ec2ef51f50a6cfb7b6487567c426_430x390.j pg (http://www.parktool.com/product/chain-wear-indicator-CC-3-2)

[oldpotatoe]

Check after 2k (then every 1k) with this:

http://www.parktool.com/uploads/thumbnails/uploads/products/ffa18a721ab7ec2ef51f50a6cfb7b6487567c426_430x390.j pg (http://www.parktool.com/product/chain-wear-indicator-CC-3-2)

or this

[kramnnim]

I hear a few folks say that rotating chains increases their life span. Can any explain to me how you get more miles out of a chain by taking it off and putting it back on in a rotation with a few other chains? Does the chain need a rest in order to recover and heal? :rolleyes: Seriously, can anyone explain this to me? It seems like a lot of effort to keep track of several chains and and the accumulated miles on each as well as a waste of single use quick links.

Chain rotation is done to extend the life of the cassette, not the chains.

[Dave]

Chain rotation is done to extend the life of the cassette, not the chains.

Rotation is done to extend the life of the chain and guarantee a specific life for the cassette - the same as all chains in the rotation. If you toss chains prematurely (1500-2000 miles) in an effort to protect the cassette, you're losing a lot of chain life and gain little or nothing on cassette life.

There is no need to keep track of mileage, but there is a need to use a measuring tool that's better than a chain checker. I like to use the internal tip of calipers to measure the space between the rollers, for Campy chains that rarely suffer from excessive elongation. Some calipers may require a littl grinding on the back side of the tips to allow contact at the center of the roller.

Measure the space between the rollers when the chain is new and alternate when each chain shows an increase of .015-.020 (or less if desired). The idea is to get some significant use from each chain in the rotation, before the cassette wears enough to cause new-chain skip. In this respect, it's no different than using a chain checker and alternating (not tossing) chains when the chain checker (falsely) reports .5% "elongation".

After each chain has seen this amount of use, the chains can be alternated again for up to twice the mileage. I prefer to use calipers and toss chain when the space between the rollers increase by .035-.040, but a chain checker could also be used and each chain tossed when it reach 1% elongation. After that much use, the cassette should be tossed too. The net result should be the about the same mileage from the cassette, with half the number of chains.

[Black Dog]

Rotation is done to extend the life of the chain and guarantee a specific life for the cassette - the same as all chains in the rotation. If you toss chains prematurely (1500-2000 miles) in an effort to protect the cassette, you're losing a lot of chain life and gain little or nothing on cassette life.

There is no need to keep track of mileage, but there is a need to use a measuring tool that's better than a chain checker. I like to use the internal tip of calipers to measure the space between the rollers, for Campy chains that rarely suffer from excessive elongation. Some calipers may require a littl grinding on the back side of the tips to allow contact at the center of the roller.

Measure the space between the rollers when the chain is new and alternate when each chain shows an increase of .015-.020 (or less if desired). The idea is to get some significant use from each chain in the rotation, before the cassette wears enough to cause new-chain skip. In this respect, it's no different than using a chain checker and alternating (not tossing) chains when the chain checker (falsely) reports .5% "elongation".

After each chain has seen this amount of use, the chains can be alternated again for up to twice the mileage. I prefer to use calipers and toss chain when the space between the rollers increase by .035-.040, but a chain checker could also be used and each chain tossed when it reach 1% elongation. After that much use, the cassette should be tossed too. The net result should be the about the same mileage from the cassette, with half the number of chains.

Your answer does not explain how the total milage for a chain will be longer if used in rotation with other chains vs used once until it wears. Are you saying that a chain left on will get, say, 5000km and if it is used in rotation with other chains it's total milage will be greater than 5000km? What factors allow chains in rotation to wear more slowly?

[Dave]

Your answer does not explain how the total milage for a chain will be longer if used in rotation with other chains vs used once until it wears. Are you saying that a chain left on will get, say, 5000km and if it is used in rotation with other chains it's total milage will be greater than 5000km? What factors allow chains in rotation to wear more slowly?

If a chain is not used in a rotation, it's usually changed and trashed at a lower mileage that will hopefully protect the cassette from getting worn to the point that it will cause new-chain skip. This if often as little as 1500-2000 miles.

If several chains are rotated, rather than tossed after 2,000 miles, they can be reused - often for another 2,000 miles. To do this, you have to keep alternating chains with a little more frequency after that first 2000 miles. The idea is to keep all of the chains in a similar state of wear. You'll never encounter chain-skip unless the elongation increases into the 1.5-2% range. That type of skipping is entirely different than new-chain skip.

For example, if chains are tossed every 2,000 miles you might get 12,000 miles from one cassette and 6 chains. If you rotate chains, you may get the same mileage with 3 chains. In both cases the cassette will be trashed after 12,000 miles.

The wear rate of the chains is no different in either case, but in the first scenario, the chains are trashed when half worn to avoid new-chain skip. If one one chain is used for 4,000 miles before switching to a new chain, that second chain is likely to skip on one or more of the most-used cogs.

[Ralph]

Doing it this way basically lets you use up several chains and a cassette together. Insuring they all work well together until they are all worn out together. Not putting a new chain on a worn cassette, etc.

[Peter B]

Your answer does not explain how the total milage for a chain will be longer if used in rotation with other chains vs used once until it wears. Are you saying that a chain left on will get, say, 5000km and if it is used in rotation with other chains it's total milage will be greater than 5000km? What factors allow chains in rotation to wear more slowly?

I think Dave is describing a 'system' approach to maximizing chain/cassette lifespan. Starting with a new cassette and chain(s) and by rotating those chains at appropriate intervals, the overall system wears in an even, relatively predictable fashion such that cassette life is maximized using fewer chains in the end. You may or may not want to put in the required effort.

[ColnagoFan]

When I had two SR11 bikes, one had a Record 11 chain, the other a KMC. I felt like the KMC shifted better, lasted longer, and was easier to remove as needed because of the quick link. I'll never run another chain besides KMC, no matter the component group.

[dem]

If you're OCT ("obsessive compulsive tendencies" - it's like OCD, but not a bad thing!) like me:

http://fairwheelbikes.com/images/kmc_chainchecker_02.jpg

It was fun running around and checking chains on every bike I could find and comparing miles, usage, etc.

I learned nothing definitive, but was entertaining anyways.

[Black Dog]

I think Dave is describing a 'system' approach to maximizing chain/cassette lifespan. Starting with a new cassette and chain(s) and by rotating those chains at appropriate intervals, the overall system wears in an even, relatively predictable fashion such that cassette life is maximized using fewer chains in the end. You may or may not want to put in the required effort.


It sounds like the idea is to save cassettes since the chains will wear at the same rate regardless. However, this is also true of the cassettes to some degree. I do understand the idea of using chains that are more worn to match cassettes that are also worn. Replacing chains at their wear point and cassettes when a new chain skips on them is so simple. An older cassette that is beyond its wear threshold will skip (to some degree) on any chain that is less than 1% elongation measured at the rollers. Does any one have any comparative data that shows how how much this save cassettes?

[Dave]

It sounds like the idea is to save cassettes since the chains will wear at the same rate regardless. However, this is also true of the cassettes to some degree. I do understand the idea of using chains that are more worn to match cassettes that are also worn. Replacing chains at their wear point and cassettes when a new chain skips on them is so simple. An older cassette that is beyond its wear threshold will skip (to some degree) on any chain that is less than 1% elongation measured at the rollers. Does any one have any comparative data that shows how how much this save cassettes?

In practice, you will find that a cassette that has only one or two cogs that skip with a new chain will work just fine with a chain that has even a few hundred miles of break-in. Those cogs will NOT skip with chains having very little wear, only brand new ones.

The idea of chain rotation is to increase cassette life to include the full life of all chains in the rotation. If too many chains are in the rotation, there will come a point when the tooth profile becomes so hooked that the chain will catch on the tip of tooth and not engage properly. I've read of some people taking a file to the offending teeth to eliminate the overhang, right at the top of the tooth and get even more life. I've never tried this myself. If I save enough on chains to buy another cassette, that's good enough for me.