MeiVici with non-curved seatstays?

[wallymann]

i emailed this question to serotta and never heard back, so i figured i'd check here.

i like the MeiVici -- i'm a fan of lugged carbon construction, but not so much with the curved seatstay arrangement. anyone know if serotta offers or can do a 1-off seat-stay setup with more direct geometry?

http://chainwheeldrive.com/images/library/large/serotta_meivici_frame_06_m.jpg

[pbarry]

No answer to your question, but, the curved seat stay assembly fashion has come and gone. Been a fan of the work from Saratoga Springs since the beginning, own a Classique, and dig the new models/trajectory, but please get rid of the curve on the top end rides. :beer:

[firerescuefin]

i emailed this question to serotta and never heard back, so i figured i'd check here.

i like the MeiVici -- i'm a fan of lugged carbon construction, but not so much with the curved seatstay arrangement. anyone know if serotta offers or can do a 1-off seat-stay setup with more direct geometry?

http://chainwheeldrive.com/images/library/large/serotta_meivici_frame_06_m.jpg

Shoot Bill (RustyLion) a pm...he'll get back to you quick...Did you ask them recently.

[reggiebaseball]

that seatstay saves me money every time I see one.

[Serotta_Carbon]

[QUOTE=wallymann;1367223]i emailed this question to serotta and never heard back, so i figured i'd check here.

i like the MeiVici -- i'm a fan of lugged carbon construction, but not so much with the curved seatstay arrangement. anyone know if serotta offers or can do a 1-off seat-stay setup with more direct geometry?


We're not currently tooled up to make straight seat stays for the Meivici. It would require a new stay design & associated mold and fixtures as well as another family of seat cluster tools to support the different entry angles.

Lots of work for a one off....

As soon as we're all caught up on the Pronto we're planning to go to work on new looks & features for some of the other bikes in the line up. We're considering any/all configurations.

All I can really say at the moment...

[572cv]

As the owner of a Meivici with the aforementioned seat stays, all I can say is, they work. It is a wonderful bike to ride. The more I ride the bike, the nicer they look. On the other hand, from a purely aesthetic perspective, I favor the classic frame, and can appreciate those who are looking for a straight seat stay.

[reggiebaseball]

Dear Serotta,

2002 called, they want their curved seatstays back.

It won't be a one-off once you offer it, it will be what everyone who has not just stepped out of a hot-tub time-machine buys.

[93legendti]

As the owner of a Meivici with the aforementioned seat stays, all I can say is, they work. It is a wonderful bike to ride. The more I ride the bike, the nicer they look...

My Ottrott has the curved stays with the ST pivots. It's the 3rd bike I've had with the stays/pivot. I reach for the Ottrott more than any other bike, and I haven't ridden my straight stay Concours in 2 months. It isn't a fashion issue.

I have a hard time seeing the curved stays while riding. Other people's mileage may vary.

[wallymann]

i can appreciate a bike that works, but there's no magic in curved stays...its a marketing "feature" pure and simple.

carbon is a wonderfully customizable material and i'm 99.9% sure that straight seat-stays can achieve the same ride characteristics as curved ones with proper design. sounds like theres appetite for serotta to give potential MV buyers that option.


My Ottrott has the curved stays with the ST pivots. It's the 3rd bike I've had with the stays/pivot. I reach for the Ottrott more than any other bike, and I haven't ridden my straight stay Concours in 2 months. It isn't a fashion issue.

I have a hard time seeing the curved stays while riding. Other people's mileage may vary.

[93legendti]

i can appreciate a bike that works, but there's no magic in curved stays...its a marketing "feature" pure and simple.

carbon is a wonderfully customizable material and i'm 99.9% sure that straight seat-stays can achieve the same ride characteristics as curved ones with proper design. sounds like theres appetite for serotta to give potential MV buyers that option.

Oh.


Hey,

This is a favorite subject of mine.

I'll say up front that I have no idea what bike you might like best. I'll leave that alone.

First I'll say something that you won't hear from many builders.......curving or bending the stays into any configuration other than straight will make the stays flex more. There are very few absolutes in life but this is one of them. Curved stays flex more than the equivalent stay without the bend. They won't flex a lot more......just a little. It depends on the type of bend and the degree of bend. One thing is for sure, the bent stay can never be stiffer due to it's bend....Dave

And

Dave:

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!...

Chain stays, on the other hand are oriented exactly in plane with a “fixed” structural member (the rear axle). They tend to be relatively short as well, plus there are two of them. What a gift! If one is looking for the ultimate in mechanical efficiency, a straight chain stay is ideal. “The shortest distance between two points is a straight line” and a longer stay is going to be more flexible... . ;)


Smiley:

You actually have two issues within your question. A) Seat stay length and/or degree of straightness and B) Stay material.

A) ....Most current road bikes now have some sort of curved seat stays. The curving allows the stays to flex somewhat like a leaf spring. Do you really get something? In general, all other things being equal, the answer is yes...

So ... if you want compliance, actual vertical movement, you need stays that allow the rear dropouts to move vertically. Seat stays which curve to some degree and are made out of a resilient material are the best way to do this...:cool:

[cachagua]

~

[rice rocket]

Oh.




And

I respectfully disagree.

A completely straight seatstay will still flex "like a leaf spring" if you make one side of the tube thinner than the other... Food for thought.

And you can bet the straight one will be tons lighter.

Karbon fiberz, how do they work?!

[dave thompson]

....picking nits...

[slidey]

Well played :rolleyes:

A completely straight seatstay will still flex "like a leaf spring" if you make one side of the tube thinner than the other... Food for thought.

[victoryfactory]

The seat stay has been a major battleground for bike
designers for a long time. It seems to be a favorite place for adjusting
the ride feel without jeopardizing the BB or headtube stiffness.

Some of the current designs have laughably
( to my eye) skinny straight seat stays. (see below)

Please let the real designers decide how to achieve the performance
they want and don't force them to produce a " look" that matches your
preference or somebody else's style!

Isn't that* what got Serotta so much undeserved criticism in the past?
Respectfully, the op is asking Serotta to rethink their design on a very
well respected frame for aesthetic reasons, no?

Who knows? maybe if a few more Serotta sponsored riders win more
races people will start asking DeRosa and Wilier for curved stays that
don't look like match sticks.

VF

*letting customers "design" their own frames

[soulspinner]

Well played :rolleyes:

Ya but prolly cheaper to have a curve than custom make each stay to a diff size YMMV>..........

[Salsa_Lover]

Forget about those gimmicky stays.

if you want the ultimate lugged carbon frame I'd suggest a Colnago C50 ;)

[ergott]

I respectfully disagree.

A completely straight seatstay will still flex "like a leaf spring" if you make one side of the tube thinner than the other... Food for thought.

And you can bet the straight one will be tons lighter.

Karbon fiberz, how do they work?!

Can you identify an instance where a carbon fiber manufacturer used a straight tube, layered it for more compression along it's length on one side and less compression along the opposite side of the same tube? A straight tube in compression is a poor choice for suspension regardless of the material.

I'm no expert, but I think there is little to no difference in compression once you get to tubes strong enough to resist the rest of the forces on the bike. Braking is traditionally done with a bridge across the seat stays as well. Hypothetically, your idea would have thinner material along the back of the tube. That would make it prone to snapping from braking loads. If you make it thinner along the front side of the tube, you would lose the flex when braking.

Come to think of it, I don't like the idea of a straight tube anywhere on my bike that will demonstrate any detectable compression.

[ergott]

If the worst you can come up with is you don't like the curve of the stays on the Meivici then I think they got a good bike on their hands.

Serotta, please don't bow down to ridiculous requests that get in the way of good frame design. I know people that have ridden both a straight ti Legend and the Legend ST. There is a diference in the ride/handling. Yes the material is different as well, but the ST rear is an evolution of the DKS rear which was made in titanium. It was decided that the ST rear improved things and made the frame lighter and less complex.

I'll keep the curved stays on my Ottrott thank you very much. I don't consider them an eyesore and the bike handles/rides awesome. Actually, withouts those stays, it would look like all the other carbon/ti bikes out there. It's nice to have some variety.

http://ergottwheels.smugmug.com/Sports/The-bikes/i-wgqx63z/0/X2/Ottrott01-X2.jpg

[rice rocket]

Using non-symmetric tubes is so the stay will flex to your desired direction and not buckle, not to bear the load in compression. Carbon in compression is the #1 wrong use of carbon.

I bet most mfgs will induce a slight curve to the stays for manufacturability, but I'm just pointing it out as a proper engineering solution since the gut reaction is to associate straight chainstays with harsh riding.

[oldpotatoe]

Using non-symmetric tubes is so the stay will flex to your desired direction and not buckle, not to bear the load in compression. Carbon in compression is the #1 wrong use of carbon.

I bet most mfgs will induce a slight curve to the stays for manufacturability, but I'm just pointing it out as a proper engineering solution since the gut reaction is to associate straight chainstays with harsh riding.

ehhh?? I'm gettin seasick

[93legendti]

if the worst you can come up with is you don't like the curve of the stays on the meivici then i think they got a good bike on their hands.

Serotta, please don't bow down to ridiculous requests that get in the way of good frame design. I know people that have ridden both a straight ti legend and the legend st. There is a diference in the ride/handling. Yes the material is different as well, but the st rear is an evolution of the dks rear which was made in titanium. It was decided that the st rear improved things and made the frame lighter and less complex.

I'll keep the curved stays on my ottrott thank you very much. I don't consider them an eyesore and the bike handles/rides awesome. Actually, withouts those stays, it would look like all the other carbon/ti bikes out there. It's nice to have some variety.

http://ergottwheels.smugmug.com/sports/the-bikes/i-wgqx63z/0/x2/ottrott01-x2.jpg

+1

[ergott]

Using non-symmetric tubes is so the stay will flex to your desired direction and not buckle, not to bear the load in compression. Carbon in compression is the #1 wrong use of carbon.

I bet most mfgs will induce a slight curve to the stays for manufacturability, but I'm just pointing it out as a proper engineering solution since the gut reaction is to associate straight chainstays with harsh riding.

A non-symmetric tube bowing to one side is demonstrating more compression on one side than the other, no? How else would it bow?

I agree that straight stays don't equal harsh. My Spooky had beefy, straight, aluminium stays. I didn't mind the ride. To me, harsh is a term that is erased with proper tire choice and proper tire pressure. The curve in the ST stays I have are more about give the bike a more planted feel while cornering. The flex was design/intended to help keep the rear wheel in contact with the road better while cornering on uneven surfaces.

[wallymann]

how about rob english's stuff?! great bikes, but those stays are scary-skinny!

...at least they're basically straight (in profile), as God intended... :p ;)

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6136/6037668276_8a640d0fe3_z.jpg

[zap]

It was decided that the ST rear improved things and made the frame lighter and less complex.



By whom.

I had an opportunity to test a Legend Ti with the ST rear and I can't imagine anything worse on roads I frequently ride. Maybe on choppy roads further north the equation swings in favor of ST and the like. Sure it was smooth but for me I just did not like the compression and resulting rebound in go fast and hard situations.

Christ, blokes don't even like frames with a simple bolt holding the seat stay to the drop out. Complaints I hear is that these designs lack snap.

[bking]

http://www.kirkframeworks.com/images/models/jks_full_build.jpghttp://www.kirkframeworks.com/images/models/jks_full_build.jpg

Dave chime in here.

[cmg]

not all bikes are built for racing. most of Independent fabrication carbons are built with curved rear stays. i like the curved stays.

[ergott]

By whom.


Reread what you quoted me for the correct context. I was discussing the move from DKS stays to ST stays. At the time straight titanium stays were an option for people that didn't want the DKS/ST stays.

[gone]

I've had a Legend ST for 10 years with > 35K miles on it. I'd always been curious about a non-ST legend so I bought one a few years ago and put about 3K miles on it.

Still have the ST, sold the non-ST.

Draw whatever conclusions you'd like.

[victoryfactory]

By whom.


It's up to the bike designer to DECIDE How to build their bikes.
We have the right to DECIDE whether we like them.
You vote with your dollars, yo.

[BumbleBeeDave]

If the worst you can come up with is you don't like the curve of the stays on the Meivici then I think they got a good bike on their hands.

I was gonna say, some folks seem to be reaching a bit to find something to criticize . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

[David Kirk]

http://www.kirkframeworks.com/images/models/jks_full_build.jpghttp://www.kirkframeworks.com/images/models/jks_full_build.jpg

Dave chime in here.

I'm not sure what to say...........if folks dislike the look of curved stays then that's how it is and I suppose and nothing anyone can say will make them like them.....understandable......beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that.

I also think a carbon stay could be laid up in an asymmetric way to allow some compliance and movement by flexing into a curved shape but they can be subject to squat under braking loads. I think instead many carbon stays are getting very small in diameter and this inherently makes the stay less resistant to compression. Think about taking a 13 mm round tube, standing it up vertically and pushing down on it. Now, to consider the extreme, think about doing the same thing with coat hanger wire. Both are columns and work well in compression but the larger tube will take a much higher load without deflecting.

I suspect that many of the carbon bikes that use super small s-stays are compensating with very stiff c-stays that carry much of the vertical load. The s-stays load then becomes very small and they don't so much carry the load but help maintain the torsional stiffness of the rear of the frame.............in other words they help keep the rear wheel in the same plane as the seat tube. Back in the early days of carbon there were plenty of bikes that had no s-stays whatsoever and instead had c-stays with a huge vertical cross section and they acted like cantilevered beams. Some worked OK and some not so much.

I would caution against attributing ALL of a given bike's ride characteristics to the type of stays they have. For instance........I've heard some larger/heavier guys complain that the curved s-stay Ti bike they own doesn't ride like they would like it to. It of course could be in part due to the s-stays but it can also be due to the fact that the frame as a whole isn't stiff enough for their size and weight. Keep in mind that Ti is not a stiff material co pared to some others and it can be a real challenge to make the c-stays stiff enough for a larger/heavier rider due to the limitations of c-stay size that can fit between the rings and tire. There are plenty of big guys that dislike Ti bikes in general for this reason and if the bike happens to have curved stays they might be tempted to blame it on the curved stays. The simple fact is of course that all this stuff gets hooked together and acts as a unit and it can be very difficult to tell what ride characteristic, good or bad, comes from what part of the bike. The only way to do this is to make identical bikes with only one variable and then ride them back to back........but for most folks this is impossible.

Lastly - I think there is no 'one right way' to build a bike and that different bikes appeal to different riders for different reasons. It's tempting to think that there is one right way and that we should all ride a bike that is built that way. Oh, if life was only this simple. But of course this isn't reality. One thing I know for sure is that one can not effectively look at photos of a given bike and tell others with certainty how it will ride and feel. The only way to tell is to ride it with an open mind and feel what it does. The rest is just guessing.

Thanks for reading.

Dave

[zap]

It's up to the bike designer to DECIDE How to build their bikes.
We have the right to DECIDE whether we like them.
You vote with your dollars, yo.

Absolutely.

But not everyone has the opportunity to test kit from small builders........hence frames get sold at a significant lose when expectations are not meet.

I'm guilty of purchasing crap but I suffer through my bad purchasing decision.........something has to be used on the computrainer.

By the way, I have a sneaky suspicion that a Serotta Legend Ti with ti rear would make for a great go fast kit............

[jpw]

As soon as we're all caught up on the Pronto we're planning to go to work on new looks & features for some of the other bikes in the line up. We're considering any/all configurations.



sticking with carbon lugs, i wonder.

[cachagua]

...Have a sneaky suspicion that a Serotta Legend Ti with ti rear would make for a great go fast kit...

You mean, you have one for sale?

[tv_vt]

They did offer a Fierte IT with straight carbon seat stays for a brief while. The stays have Columbus decals on them. Here's mine:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=67154&highlight=fierte+cross-country

Frankly, I'd take the curved stays if I had the choice.

[corky]

It's an interesting topic for sure.....

I have long lusted after an IF XS but could never get past the curved seatstays..... and it's pure an aesthetic dislike, why curve the stays when the forks are straight? it always looked unbalanced to me, Serottas work because their fork has a slight curve....... I realize this is all personal but thats what a custom bike is all about .... non?

anyway I finally ordered an XS and went with an all TI rear-end and that includes straight seat stays. Why would you do that I hear you ask? well my belief is that the main tubes have the greatest effect on overall frame feel and they will be Ti Lugged carbon.

We will see....

[Len J]

Aesthetics are funny. When you are spending that much, you don't want anything you don't like on the bike. I think wound up forks are butt ugly, as are Breezer D/O's & non set-back seat posts, otoh, I like some things others don't. YMMV.

My Ottrott w the ST seat stays is a planted bike....it does work. IMO.


Len

[Bradford]

There aren't many things on my Legend that I've thought about less than the shape of the ST chain stays. I think about how much I wish they weren't black all the time, but I don't think about the shape at all.

What I do think about every time out is how well the bike rides. I also often think about how much better it handles than the last bike I had, which was made by a well known builder.

If Kirk and Kellogg like it, and if it rides as well as it does on my bike, I'm pretty much done thinking about a better design.

[bluesea]

Aesthetics are funny. When you are spending that much, you don't want anything you don't like on the bike. I think wound up forks are butt ugly, as are Breezer D/O's & non set-back seat posts, otoh, I like some things others don't. YMMV.




Len


Agree, agree, agree

[RedRider]

By the way, I have a sneaky suspicion that a Serotta Legend Ti with ti rear would make for a great go fast kit............[/QUOTE]

Serotta currently has the Legend SG with ti seat stays. It's their stock geometry and they might even have your size in inventory. Go for it!
http://serotta.com/legend-sg/

[rustylion]

I would like to learn more details about you emailing us a question and never hearing back.

Our Customer Care standard is a minimum of a 2-hour response to every email inquiry (faster if we can) and if we can't answer you in the first email, a final answer within 24 hours.

So, I am hoping you were not ignored (aka human failure) but rather there is a failure in our system someplace. If you can help me troubleshoot it through sharing your transaction details, I would appreciate your time.

Thanks.

i emailed this question to serotta and never heard back, so i figured i'd check here.

i like the MeiVici -- i'm a fan of lugged carbon construction, but not so much with the curved seatstay arrangement. anyone know if serotta offers or can do a 1-off seat-stay setup with more direct geometry?

http://chainwheeldrive.com/images/library/large/serotta_meivici_frame_06_m.jpg

[gone]

I would like to learn more details about you emailing us a question and never hearing back.


Props for following up!

[rileystylee]

OP won't like this then:no:

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk216/devonbay/036_zpsd385f529.jpg (http://s281.photobucket.com/user/devonbay/media/036_zpsd385f529.jpg.html)

[wallymann]

i emailed this question to serotta and never heard back, so i figured i'd check here.


a courtesy update on behalf of serotta, their customer service folks actually contacted me to find out what happened here. via paceline they provided me with a copy of the email their rep sent to me, so they clearly did their due-dilligence with this query. i checked my in-box and have no record of receipt of the response, so something was lost in the ether.

serotta did the right thing and sent me a nice response, and even followed up with excellent market outreach to figure out what the problem was. my mail provider can be spotty at times so i'll take the hit.

response sent by serotta below:

Date: June 4, 2013 7:00:39 PM EDT

Hello Walter,

Thanks for the inquiry. We only build the MeiVici with our proprietary curved wishbone stay.

These are different machines, but we do build our Legend full Ti with straight seatstays. An Ottrott with Ti seatstays (versus the standard ST Carbon stay) is built with straight stays.

[wooly]

Wallyman - thanks for circling back. It's nice to know the attempt was made. And I am happy for Serotta that it appears that they are BACK.

[jeo99]

Well I can show where I emailed a question related to procuring a set of CSI decals. Serotta responded to my question in 23 days!

:help:

I just looked back at the email. I sent the email question to Serotta on 5/20 and received an answer on 6/13.

I would like to learn more details about you emailing us a question and never hearing back.

Our Customer Care standard is a minimum of a 2-hour response to every email inquiry (faster if we can) and if we can't answer you in the first email, a final answer within 24 hours.

So, I am hoping you were not ignored (aka human failure) but rather there is a failure in our system someplace. If you can help me troubleshoot it through sharing your transaction details, I would appreciate your time.

Thanks.

[jlwdm]

Well I can show where I emailed a question related to procuring a set of CSI decals. Serotta responded to my question in 23 days!

:help:

I just looked back at the email. I sent the email question to Serotta on 5/20 and received an answer on 6/13.

So help Rusty Lion out. PM him with the specifics so that he can try to track down the problem.

Jeff

[rustylion]

That's right and thanks for the vote of confidence.

After emailing us, if you are not recieving an response from us within 2 hours and as best as we can, a final answer to an issue in 24 hours, I would like to think something (rather than someone) is broken in our system. If we don't pick up the phone in 3-4 rings to assist you and ready to fix an issue on the spot then I would also like to think something is wrong with our system (as opposed to folks here just not performing).

With that said, I am not, in any way, trying to put all our hiccups on to the back of "systemic failures!" We are people like you and I suppose as much as we don't like it, we have bad days and bad performances, too. I would like to think we are not too humble to admit we failed, ask for forgiveness and then, pick up the pieces and get back to helping you out. If we tally up our failures, I would like to think "system" wins by a landslide...

When we let you down, I could use your help to troubleshoot what went wrong. Keeping our promises is important so let me know when we do not. Please know that I am listening...as is everyone else in Customer Care.

Thanks.

So help Rusty Lion out. PM him with the specifics so that he can try to track down the problem.

Jeff

[jeo99]

Bill,
You have been emailed.

Jim O

[rustylion]

And, I PMed you back with what happened.

Thanks for helping us troubleshoot this issue.

Bill,
You have been emailed.

Jim O