Interval Set Suggestions

[ariw]

I have been working to get back in shape after some health setbacks in the past few years, and it is mostly going well. I managed to lose a good chunk of weight, get my mileage up, and overall ride much stronger. When I am on a fast group ride though, I am getting caught out by the accelerations and dropped. I can keep a steady 24-26 in the paceline, and even occasionally pull through, but the bursts to 28-29 kill me, even if they don't last long. Any suggestions for interval sets that focus on this weakness? A friend suggested 30s all-out followed by 90s rest x 8.

TIA,
-Ari

[shovelhd]

Those will work, but it helps to understand who you are and what your goals are.

How old are you?
How long have you been riding in group rides?
Are you planning on racing?
What are your goals for this year? Next year?

Average speed means very little. I can be on a ride going 26mph up a grade and into a headwind on the front and be working a hell of a lot harder than if I'm in the group on the flats with a tailwind.

Do you have a heart rate monitor and/or a power meter?

[regularguy412]

Helps to have a heart rate monitor or power meter to do some of this, but here goes:

This can be done on an indoor trainer or on the road and hopefully, you know what your 'numbers' are.

Warm up for at least 10 minutes,, longer if yer old(er).

Gear up and turn approx. 80-90 rpm for 2 minutes at 80% of your HRMax.
After 2 minutes at 80%, raise your effort to 83% either by cadence increase or gearing resistance. Do 83% for 1 minute.
After 1 minute at 83%, back down to 80% for 2 more minutes.
Total of 5 minutes. Easy spin at approx. 2 minutes. Your HR should be down to approx 70% by then, or slightly lower.

This is 1 EFFORT.

Start with 2 Efforts and work your way up until you can do 8 or 10 Efforts.

8 Efforts will get you approx 1 hour of work with a 10 minute warm up and 10 minute warm down at the end.

Mike in AR:beer:

[christian]

Warm up for at least 10 minutes,, longer if yer old(er).

Gear up and turn approx. 80-90 rpm for 2 minutes at 80% of your HRMax.
After 2 minutes at 80%, raise your effort to 83% either by cadence increase or gearing resistance. Do 83% for 1 minute.
After 1 minute at 83%, back down to 80% for 2 more minutes.
Total of 5 minutes. Easy spin at approx. 2 minutes. Your HR should be down to approx 70% by then, or slightly lower.

This is 1 EFFORT.

Have to admit I'm confused by this. This would barely get me out of zone 3. I don't see that this would help the OP's problem at all -- I think the issue is that he's at threshold at (his defined) 26 mph and goes above threshold when the group surges. To work on that, he's going to have to work more at AeT. I think 30/30s or 30/90s as suggested will work better.

[regularguy412]

Have to admit I'm confused by this. This would barely get me out of zone 3. I don't see that this would help the OP's problem at all -- I think the issue is that he's at threshold at (his defined) 26 mph and goes above threshold when the group surges. To work on that, he's going to have to work more at AeT. I think 30/30s or 30/90s as suggested will work better.

It all depends on his own numbers. For many, working over 85% is pretty tough to sustain. The tough part of the type of riding I perceive he is explaining is that he can do one or two hard efforts, but not able to do them over an over. If he can do 85% for 2 minutes, then 90% for a minute, the 85% again for 2 minutes,, that's great. If he can do 8 or 10 of these,, and he's still getting dropped,, then he just didn't pick his parents well. ( I certainly didn't pick mine well, for sure.) I suggested these 80%-83%-80% numbers as a starting point, not an ending point. Oh, and BTW,, we're not talking about YOU,, it's about HIM.

Mike in AR:beer:

[christian]

Fair enough. I'm a pack fodder 5 and I think 83%-88%-83% of MHR would be about where I'd struggle to do 10 sets. That's about 94% of LTHR, 98% of LTHR, 94% of LTHR for me.

BTW, this is a miserably fun workout. :)

[rpm]

As a small aside, has anyone tried Tabata intervals (20 on-10 off x 8)? I did them once in a spinning class this winter and they hammered me, so I was thinking of adding them to summer training.

[regularguy412]

Fair enough. I'm a pack fodder 5 and I think 83%-88%-83% of MHR would be about where I'd struggle to do 10 sets. That's about 94% of LTHR, 98% of LTHR, 94% of LTHR for me.

BTW, this is a miserably fun workout. :)

There's another nice little 'ugly' workout you can do if you're working on AT threshold stuff.

Total effort is 5 minutes.
Warm up as usual.
Then hold 83% for 2 minutes. ( This would be at a cadence you would 'normally' use on the road). At the 2 minute mark, stand up and sprint for at least 10 seconds. Then sit back down and continue your 83% work until you complete the 5 minute set.
Spin for 2 minutes.

Work up to 10 of these.

When you feel like you can handle it, change the 5 minute length to 10 minutes,, doing the sprint at the 5 minute mark. Use 3 minutes spinning in between sets.

Mike in AR:beer:

[slidey]

Sucks all sorts of nether parts :mad:

And, it broke me completely...but more persistent people have seen good results in increased top-end. Of course, in my very inexperienced opinion, I'd say that Tabata should be incorporated in one's training only when other training days have a good amount of threshold work thrown in as well. After all, its not much good to be able to sprint like the devil when you've been dropped by a steady threshold pace.

On a lighter note, the only other positive is that after a few go's at this, 30/30s seem blissful! ;)

As a small aside, has anyone tried Tabata intervals (20 on-10 off x 8)? I did them once in a spinning class this winter and they hammered me, so I was thinking of adding them to summer training.

[shovelhd]

All this high intensity VO2Max stuff is fine as long as you balance it with rest.

[Likes2ridefar]

My opinion is that you need to raise your FTP, functional threshold, or lactate threshold...whatever you want to call it. The higher your watts per kg or % of max HR you can sustain the better you will do in group rides.

The most basic workout to do this is a 2x20' interval session a couple times a week. for each 20' interval you need to go as hard as you can at a steady effort. These pretty much suck but they do get better the more you do. Learning to pace yourself is challenging and expect to fail the first times.

If you have lots of time, focus primarily on endurance and tempo rides but a few times a week mix in the higher threshold efforts.

Doing all out 30s sprints are great and all...for a sprinter or for that final dash to the line, but in most cases it's not what you need for a spirited group ride.

[MattTuck]

My opinion is that you need to raise your FTP, functional threshold, or lactate threshold...whatever you want to call it. The higher your watts per kg or % of max HR you can sustain the better you will do in group rides.

The most basic workout to do this is a 2x20' interval session a couple times a week. for each 20' interval you need to go as hard as you can at a steady effort. These pretty much suck but they do get better the more you do. Learning to pace yourself is challenging and expect to fail the first times.

If you have lots of time, focus primarily on endurance and tempo rides but a few times a week mix in the higher threshold efforts.

Doing all out 30s sprints are great and all...for a sprinter or for that final dash to the line, but in most cases it's not what you need for a spirited group ride.

So basically a time trial for 20 minutes? The flatest spot I can do this would still involve some down hills. How do you handle those?

I think that this will build strength and endurance, but high intensity stuff is good for building fitness also. If I were on an organized plan, I don't think I'd exclude either approach.

I like these both because they involve going 'as hard as you can go'. I always felt uneasy going based on heart rates, when I know that my max HR on the bike is different from my max HR running. I never got a satisfactory answer on which I should use when creating 'zones'.

[shovelhd]

So basically a time trial for 20 minutes? The flatest spot I can do this would still involve some down hills. How do you handle those?

Work on pacing at any output level. Start with tempo intervals. It's best to have a power meter. Ease up on the up grades and hammer on the down grades to stay as close as you can to your power target. Use 3s average as the guide. Progress to threshold and above once you build your technique.

I have found that concentrating on pedaling in circles on the down grades helps keep the power up.

[Likes2ridefar]

So basically a time trial for 20 minutes? The flatest spot I can do this would still involve some down hills. How do you handle those?

I think that this will build strength and endurance, but high intensity stuff is good for building fitness also. If I were on an organized plan, I don't think I'd exclude either approach.

I like these both because they involve going 'as hard as you can go'. I always felt uneasy going based on heart rates, when I know that my max HR on the bike is different from my max HR running. I never got a satisfactory answer on which I should use when creating 'zones'.

yes, a TT. as fast as you can go for that time period. It doesnt have to be precise but any long breaks diminish the returns I think.

You can do it on the flats, hills, wherever. I prefer climbs but don't have any that long where I live unless I travel 45 miles north so that is only for my longer rides where I do endurance for 2 or so hours then kill myself up a long climb and endurance return usually finishing at tempo to as hard as I can go for the last hour.

First develop the base (endurance) where that will no longer be a reason you are dropped then work in the tempo while maintaining the established base and after that work in the threshold and higher end. But that's more for racing and peaking so perhaps it makes more sense to mix the high end more often. I just know I can't sustain it for long periods of time but a high FTP can be much easier sustained and if it's high enough you can generally manage anything a fast paced group ride will toss your way..

[Likes2ridefar]

Work on pacing at any output level. Start with tempo intervals. It's best to have a power meter. Ease up on the up grades and hammer on the down grades to stay as close as you can to your power target. Use 3s average as the guide. Progress to threshold and above once you build your technique.

I have found that concentrating on pedaling in circles on the down grades helps keep the power up.

You really don't need a power meter or even a HR monitor. Each zone can easily be described by feel and it'll get you most the way there without spending a thousand or more dollars.

[shovelhd]

Good point. It depends how accurate you want to be. Pacing to stay hooked up on a group ride is less demanding than pacing for a time trial.

[ariw]

OK, OK, I guess that I should have provided more details, so here goes. I am 39 now, in my younger days I was Cat 4 pack filler, won one road race in my not so memorable racing career. I became a Type 1 diabetic when I was 25, and haven't raced since then. Trained with a HRM for long time and ride with it religiously. I have been doing interval training regularly, mostly in the 2-5 minute range and at 80-90% effort. Sets like 2 on/2 off x8, or 1-2-3-4-5-4-3-2-1 at or near AT.

Thanks for the suggestions so far, much of my progress in the past year has been the result of getting away from just doing what I did when I was younger and asking for ideas from doctors, trainers, etc... I appreciate the help and am willing to give new ideas a try.

-Ari

[B_N]

Want the easy and effective interval workout. It's this simple and I'd put the results of these vs. anything... or restated they have worked very well for me. In all intervals once you're a bit cooked you end up riding at 100% effort, even if it's a 83% effort interval. Skip to the chase and just do maximal effort intervals.

Warm up 5-10 min

20 sec WFO/AHAP: read 100% maximal effort
10 sec rest

Do this 8x (Tabata) If done correctly you should want to die after 4-5 and about blow chunks after the set of 8.. And feel like you just rode hard for an hour+. Yes, the meat of this takes 4 minutes. I do the full workout in 12 minutes. 6 min warm up, 4 of the business and 2 cool down (trying not to die)

2-3x/week and after 2 weeks you should be able to suffer better and hang on noticeabally longer before getting shelled.

A spin bike works best for these .. Even better if it has a built in PM to keep you honest.

[Louis]

2-3x/week

Wouldn't 3x / week be a bit too often? (I know little about this sort of thing.)

[Tandem Rider]

Just wondering how long of a ride you are talking about. Training for 3 hour rides at speed is a whole 'nother game than a 45 minute ride. If you need to be fast for 3 hours, 8 minutes of tabatas isn't going to be enough on it's own.

Likestoridefars' 20 minute intervals are the meat of any plan, and most plans will use some flavor of them. Once you can do 3 of them in one workout, substitute micros for the middle one. Micros are 15 seconds hard out of the saddle acceleration followed by 15 seconds of very easy recovery followed by another 15 seconds of hard acceleration etc. for 20 minutes. Using a PM my average watts for micro's will be the same as for a 20 minute FTP interval so you have to get after it.

[shovelhd]

Just wondering how long of a ride you are talking about. Training for 3 hour rides at speed is a whole 'nother game than a 45 minute ride. If you need to be fast for 3 hours, 8 minutes of tabatas isn't going to be enough on it's own.

Exactly. Which is why I asked all the questions before handing out workouts. You'll get fit using any of the workouts mentioned, but without a plan, YMMV.

Whatever workouts you choose, if you want to get stronger, you'll need rest. The body builds with rest after stress. Stress does not build by itself. No rest, no build, it's just breakdown. Your body needs micro rest (every few days) as well as macro rest (every few weeks).

Think about something like three days on, day off, two days on, day off. Rest week every four weeks if you're not racing, every three weeks if you are.

You can ride on days off, but no more than an hour, and no effort. Rest weeks can have intervals, but double the days off.

If you want to build speed and recovery, which seems to be the original question, nothing does this better for me than over-unders.

[ariw]

Short-term goal is to hang in there on fast group rides that are usually 1.5-2.5 hours. Longer term, I would like to pin a number on again, if I can stay healthy, continue to lose weight, and gain the fitness that I need to do so. Probably not this year, but next spring.

Thanks again for the ideas, I think that I am going to try some short AHAP stuff on the stationary bike. Of course, right after I post this, I start coming down with a cold...

-Ari

[shovelhd]

Short-term goal is to hang in there on fast group rides that are usually 1.5-2.5 hours. Longer term, I would like to pin a number on again, if I can stay healthy, continue to lose weight, and gain the fitness that I need to do so. Probably not this year, but next spring.

Thanks again for the ideas, I think that I am going to try some short AHAP stuff on the stationary bike. Of course, right after I post this, I start coming down with a cold...

-Ari

You cannot lose weight and train for peak output, I.e. tabatas. If building base and losing weight is your immediate goal, tempo, tempo, tempo.

[earlfoss]

If you want to do some good interval workouts on the trainer I'd highly recommend the Sufferfest videos.

The whole workout is laid out for you and all you need to do is press start and do the work. Not a lot of thought involved.

[shovelhd]

That's the problem.