Quality

[MattTuck]

I bought some new Levi's denim pants earlier this week, and am wearing them for the first time today. Upon standing up form my desk, I used the belt loops in the back to lift the rear up a bit, and that ripped the fabric that one of the belt loops was attached to.... guess I'll be returning them.

Levi's used to be known as a hard-wearing quality product. What happened?


I think that is one of the reasons I like this forum, you folks seem to really know and value quality. And there are so many really great companies in cycling that really pay attention to the details and produce great quality stuff.

[mktng]

Never had an issue with my Levi's 510/511/513

Also use the 511 commuter line up as my daily pants on the bike .. and off sometimes haha.

They stand up to all the beating I give them. Alot of belt loop tugging :P

I have ..however .. ripped a belt loop once before. I know that feeling. ahahah

[Lewis Moon]

Levi's used to be known as a hard-wearing quality product. What happened?





Walmart.

[false_Aest]

Levis uses a cheaper, lighter denim these days and their quality has gone down but belt loops do rip occasionally. I've had it happen on a few "good quality" jeans.

If you want a decent pair of jeans, made in US with heavier denim and don't mind a slightly baggy fit, check out Prison Blues.

[redir]

Walmart.

Yup. It's not about quality anymore, to retain loyal customers and build trusted brands, it's about maximizing profit and lining the pockets of CEO's and stock holders. There are signs that this business model is turning around and biting back in the arse. But ultimately customers were duped into thinking that cheap is good.

[earlfoss]

In the last couple years I have noticed that my jeans need replacing about once a year because they simply wear out. The denim is much thinner than in the past and build quality from pair to pair in the same size and within the same brand isn't consistent.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who notices this trend.

[fuzzalow]

2 Comments: one on denim and one on Walmart.

I'll admit I might be talking dumb here on denim but the Levis that can be purchased from places like the Gap are different than Levis from the mass market discount chains. At the discount chains, price rules above, or more figuratively, below, all other considerations. So if the price is really cheap it only makes sense the pants are actually, in reality, really cheap.

Which ties in to Walmart. A long time ago Walmart was able to provide exceptional pricing based on the volume of its manufacturers purchases store-wide and the efficiencies of its inventory management, internal controls and logistics. You could actually comparison shop between Walmart and its competitors because the Levis, for example, were the same. All that went away as Walmart was able to spec the characteristics of what it could buy from manufacturers, like Levi Straus, at a lower spec and cheaper cost for Walmart. A consumer can no longer comparison shop between like pairs of Levis because the odds are the Levis 501's being compared from Walmart and whomever are not actually identical 501s - the Walmart price is lower but that sleight of inventory for a lesser good is never noticed by the average consumer. The low prices of Walmart are equal parts illusion and reality.

I occasionally shop at Walmart. I would be happy to pay more for any and all items across the store if it would extend health & other benefits to all Walmart employees. 50 cents or a dollar means nothing to me but across tens of millions of units, I'd rather see it go to workers instead of rolled into the dividend.

As far as the OP and denim, there is an entire world of selvedge denim that is still good quality. But not cheap.

[Pete Mckeon]

:). After this many years of reducing cost for increased quartely profit it becomes very risky to think ALL are the same quality.

Even in auto industry we have seen this short term profit focus as witness by even Honda civic and toyota camry in past years, Bmw got hit in mid 90s for trying to cheap out on product and increase profit. Y:eek:that is a business exposure as even talked about in NY Times today with airlines squeezing parts suppliers in order to boast airline company prifits. (. Not to reduce sales price)
2 Comments: one on denim and one on Walmart.
:butt:

That is life and living it today:banana:

I'll admit I might be talking dumb here on denim but the Levis that can be purchased from places like the Gap are different than Levis from the mass market discount chains. At the discount chains, price rules above, or more figuratively, below, all other considerations. So if the price is really cheap it only makes sense the pants are actually, in reality, really cheap.

Which ties in to Walmart. A long time ago Walmart was able to provide exceptional pricing based on the volume of its manufacturers purchases store-wide and the efficiencies of its inventory management, internal controls and logistics. You could actually comparison shop between Walmart and its competitors because the Levis, for example, were the same. All that went away as Walmart was able to spec the characteristics of what it could buy from manufacturers, like Levi Straus, at a lower spec and cheaper cost for Walmart. A consumer can no longer comparison shop between like pairs of Levis because the odds are the Levis 501's being compared from Walmart and whomever are not actually identical 501s - the Walmart price is lower but that sleight of inventory for a lesser good is never noticed by the average consumer. The low prices of Walmart are equal parts illusion and reality.

I occasionally shop at Walmart. I would be happy to pay more for any and all items across the store if it would extend health & other benefits to all Walmart employees. 50 cents or a dollar means nothing to me but across tens of millions of units, I'd rather see it go to workers instead of rolled into the dividend.

As far as the OP and denim, there is an entire world of selvedge denim that is still good quality. But not cheap.

[MattTuck]

You could actually comparison shop between Walmart and its competitors because the Levis, for example, were the same. All that went away as Walmart was able to spec the characteristics of what it could buy from manufacturers, like Levi Straus, at a lower spec and cheaper cost for Walmart. A consumer can no longer comparison shop between like pairs of Levis because the odds are the Levis 501's being compared from Walmart and whomever are not actually identical 501s - the Walmart price is lower but that sleight of inventory for a lesser good is never noticed by the average consumer. The low prices of Walmart are equal parts illusion and reality.


Yep, I knew that stores like home depot and lowes spec lower end parts for appliances and faucets and stuff, so it makes sense that Levi's and other clothes manufacturers would do the same. Sad thing is, the lower quality rubs off on the manufacturer, not the retailer. I'm now in the market for another pair of jeans, and I am not giving my business to Levi's.

[ANAO]

Yep, I knew that stores like home depot and lowes spec lower end parts for appliances and faucets and stuff, so it makes sense that Levi's and other clothes manufacturers would do the same. Sad thing is, the lower quality rubs off on the manufacturer, not the retailer. I'm now in the market for another pair of jeans, and I am not giving my business to Levi's.

What's your price range look like?

I've two pairs of Unbranded Jeans (made by Naked and Famous, but without the brand) that are going on 3 years now. Those are some solid jeans at under $100.

If you're looking to go pricey, look at Iron Horse. Those are closer to $300 but BUILT TO LAST. Or, you can just thrift on ebay or at Goodwill for older Levi's - those are ACTUALLY made of high quality denim/construction, in a time where those details were valued.

Fortunately, I think the trend is shifting back towards quality denim (and bikes, and wallets, and suits, et al.) as is indicated by the producer's ability to demand the premium prices that they do.

[GScot]

There are good Levi's. A friend's mother works at a Hospice thrift store and snagged me a pair of LVC 501s, levi's vintage clothing. I think she paid $15 staff price and they would have sold in the store @ $30. Best jeans I've ever had and were made in Indiana I think. I've looked into more but found the real price is north of $200. I'd pay that for bibs but it seems nuts for jeans, although I think they'll last forever.

[MattTuck]

I guess it is all relative when you start comparing it to the price of bike apparel, Ha! I'd like to pay less than $75, but $100 is about the max I'd pay for jeans. I mean, if I could get a couple good years out of them, wearing them once a week, that'd be what I'm looking for before moving them to the paint/project/yard work pile.

I'm curious about those really expensive jeans, but I would just be afraid I'd stain them or otherwise ruin them.

[Ken Robb]

Maybe Levi Strauss' market research noticed that people were snapping up well-used Levis in some shops for about the same price as brand new Levis. Why? Because brand new shrink-to-fit original Levis were stiff as boards until they had been washed several (many?) times. Hmmm, why not make them from thinner, cheaper denim? Heck, why not pre-wash the thinner, cheaper denim? Hey now we can sell pre-worn-out jeans with little to zero quality control rejections because who can spot a flaw on these rags?:)

[fuzzalow]

Good denim costs money although I couldn't venture a guess as to how much of the $300+ that a new pair of Levi's Vintage Clothing 501s is for the actual selvedge denim quality and how much is built into the premium for fashion & nostalgia.

Picking up a pair of LVC at a hospice is truly a score - worn top tier denim not beat to crap is worth monstrous money to denim connoisseurs.

In fairness, with the more dressed down style in modern life outside of formal business, denim can be used for a lot of events & style. It might be worth getting something good that isn't used as garage/yard/roofing wear.

[rugbysecondrow]

I was just telling somebody today a very different Levi story. I walked into a Levi's store, told the lady I needed new jeans. She says, "559 I bet", then brought me a pair of 34x34 which fit like a glove. Purchased for $60-$70 bucks, and done jean shopping in ten minutes...it was GREAT. I have since bought 3 other pair of 559 Levi's. I will say, the wash and style of the jean will also have varying level of thickness and feel. I will also say that the jeans I bought at the Levi store had the leather label and seemed to be better quality than the pairs from Macy's. Who knows if they are of if that is perception. I also don't want jeans with tricked out stitching, bedazzled or any other bullcrap. I want some jeans that are for grown men, not boys.

Anyway, my Levi's get an near everyday wearing in the fall/winter and spring and never in the summer. No issues, they wear well and my wife thinks my ass looks cute in them...win, win, win.



Take them back, get another pair.

[ultraman6970]

Levi's is not manufacturing jeans with the same quality than 15 years ago, or what is the same... i noticed levis went crappy like 15 years ago.

[MattTuck]

I will also say that the jeans I bought at the Levi store had the leather label and seemed to be better quality than the pairs from Macy's.

I purchased them at Macy's. That's good to know. Surprised that Macy's doesn't get the 'good stuff'... thanks.

[93legendti]

http://www.dpc.senate.gov/dpcdoc.cfm?doc_name=fs-110-1-83

There's no free lunch. Rising fuel costs mean either the price of goods are jacked up, or companies have to reduce costs in other ways they can control-such as using less material or inferior material.

I paid $4.359/gallon today. New record.

[rugbysecondrow]

I purchased them at Macy's. That's good to know. Surprised that Macy's doesn't get the 'good stuff'... thanks.

It might also be that the jeans I bought at Macy's had a different style to them (different color/finish) and the material of the jeans felt thinner.

I have just felt the 4 different finish of jeans that I have, all Levi 559, and they all feel a little different. Not better or worse, just different. I have had no problems with any of them though.

[Doug Fattic]

I suggest trying Carhart jeans. I like to buy the carpenter style for work out in the frameshop. I get two different models. One has very heavy denim and seems indestructible. They cost me under $40 at Rural King (a store in the midwest that likes to go into old K-marts. They specialize in working clothes among all their farm merchandize but have much better quality than Walmart – even though the store has a K-mart feel to it). The other similar Carhart jeans model is made out of somewhat lighter denim and costs me around $32. I like these better in hotter weather. They also have other standard models. I used to buy Levi carpenter jeans but they quit making them. The Carharts use heavier denim and are better made.

By the way most bike frame painters use Bounty paper towels like I do. I buy them in bulk and I started taking pictures on my I-phone of the description of how many sheets in each roll. To my surprise a 8 or 12 roll package is very different in different stores. I discovered that Walmart rolls had few sheets than from my local supermarket. It wouldn't surprise me there is a difference in thickness too. And of course I thought any 8 roll package would be identical at any store. I'm not talking the big rolls vs standard rolls but packaging that looks identical. Such is Walmart's business strategy. I feel like this is just trickery and is another reason I dislike them.

[rice rocket]

Y'all need to find the subculture of $300-1000 jeans. Custom bikes, custom jeans. Get on it.:banana:

[daker13]

I found myself disgusted with ordinary Levi's quality about four years ago. I discovered later that Levi's still makes some excellent jeans, made in the USA and with Cone Mills (NC) heavy denim, but the downside is they cost around $160. Made in Mexico Levi's, but from Cone Mills denim, are excellent and around $90--but you have to go to a place like the Levi's store in SF to find all these different options. I bought an excellent pair of jeans recently from a Kickstarter crew, raw denim and made in the US: they're called Gustin, worth checking out, $80. Think these are too expensive? To my way of thinking, the real rip-off was the $40 Levi's.

[soulspinner]

Y'all need to find the subculture of $300-1000 jeans. Custom bikes, custom jeans. Get on it.:banana:

Ive gotta do cheap clothes to afford custom bikes:rolleyes:

[fuzzalow]

I discovered that Walmart rolls had few sheets than from my local supermarket. It wouldn't surprise me there is a difference in thickness too. And of course I thought any 8 roll package would be identical at any store. I'm not talking the big rolls vs standard rolls but packaging that looks identical. Such is Walmart's business strategy. I feel like this is just trickery and is another reason I dislike them.

I would not have considered checking Walmart-sold Bounty paper towels to find out if Walmart was "short-sheeting" the customer but it is, regrettably, no surprise.

The duplicity foisted upon their customers, the illusion of getting value for their money, the ersatz beneficence in helping their customers go further with what they have to spend, the excessive exploitation of their workforce. Much to rue, much to lament over and much to despise.

I have not read any biography of Sam Walton and wonder if this style of corporate governance would existed today were he able to oversee it. I always pretend that the the older generation had the moral compass to not be as dishonest as current practice now seems to rationalize as the norm. But I don't know - Sam Walton could have been a ruthless SOB. I do know that the way Walmart is run these days has all of the bland imagination and balance sheet trickery of advice give to the Walton family by MBAs trying to be clever. Long ago they stopped being merchants and became accountants on the prowl seeking to "unlock value".

[neiltron]

Look at Tellason, Taylor Stitch, Rogue Territory, 3Sixteen or Railcar Fine Goods. All small brands using quality denim fabric (USA or Japanese), cut and sew right here in the USA and stand behind what they make. Price ranges from $150 - $230, choose a heavier weight denim (14 oz and up) and they will last years, not weeks.

Don't both with Levi's, even the American-made line. They can't compete with the small brands on quality and customer service.

[avalonracing]

Y'all need to find the subculture of $300-1000 jeans. Custom bikes, custom jeans. Get on it.:banana:

Rapha sells jeans?

[carlucci1106]

lol, Rapha sells jeans, that was a good one...

I have always seen good quality and fit with the jeans and twill/khaki pants at Banana Republic. Their jeans are a very soft high-quality denim, and the fit just works for me. For 59-70 bucks you get a pair of jeans that look good, are durable, and very comfortable. Can't go wrong.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Discount stores, like Target, Home Depot/Lowes and more so Walmart dictate quality. Same item, almost the same model number, very different quality. I found this out when I was looking for a snowblower. I forget the model, but it was an Ariens, and wondered why the blower at Home Depot was around $800 at the big box store, and around $1200 at the local power equipment store, as they both had the same model number (I thought), and "looked" identical. Sure enough, there was a "C" at the end of the model number at Home Depot. Engine made in China, metal thinner and flimsier, and the controls felt cheap. The big retailers specify a pricepoint, and the manufacturer has to meet it, or the item won't be sold there.

[Ken Robb]

I have some nice old Levis and some nice jeans from Landsend but most days I wear "Kirkland" jeans from COSTCO. Their denim is not as nice as the others but it and the jeans themselves are very sturdy and the cost $13-14. The latest ones have enlarged "watch" pockets (the one above the right front pocket) so it can hold a smart phone securely.

The Landsend jeans are "ring spun" denim which has a pretty luxurious hand and they can be ordered in any length for no extra cost. That is a plus for me because 31" is my ideal length and most stores only stock 30 and 32" lengths.

FOR ME $80 is expensive and $300 is beyond consideration for jeans. I wear them for comfort and utility so I want mine to be cheap enough that I don't have to worry about ruining a pair while doing the stuff I do in jeans. Heck my finest wool "dress" pants didn't cost $300.

Please note "FOR ME". I'm not criticizing anyone who gets value from HIS $300 jeans.

[Wilkinson4]

Levi's changed the denim on 501's awhile ago. Selvedge "Self Edge" or sometimes called red lines became too expensive to produce I guess. If you want that feeling, raw denim or vintage levis. Iron Heat jeans, naked and famous, or just ebay selvedge jean.

mIKE

[neiltron]

Rabbit Hole Alert:

Here's an article about Cone Mills, one of the last remaining selvedge denim mills left in the USA. Just like with bicycles, there's so much that goes into making a pair of jeans, down to the cotton yarn that's woven into fabric.

Link here: http://www.rawrdenim.com/2013/03/meet-your-maker-cone-mills-of-greensboro-north-carolina/

[Wilkinson4]

That is some great info:) Levi's and others went to a different manufacturing practice to keep up with demand and maintain profits. Most of the old shuttle looms ended up in Japan.

I watched an old movie a few weeks ago called, The Man in the White Suit. It was a pretty good flick. Textiles is a mystery to me but cool stuff.

mIKE