OT - REI revamped their return policy

[gdw]

It's too bad but the number of people abusing the policy seems to have increased greatly over the last decade.

"REI has one of the best return policies in retail, and we remain committed
to your satisfaction with everything you buy at REI. We also have a
small, but growing, number of customers who stretch our policy beyond
its intended purpose. To ensure that we can continue to offer our 100%
Satisfaction Guarantee, we're updating our policy: You have one year
from purchase to return or exchange any item you're not satisfied with,
except items purchased from REI-OUTLET, which must be returned
within 30 days of purchase. If you want to learn more, please click here.
These updates enable us to maintain our robust policy and, as always,
stand behind all purchases made at REI and REI-OUTLET."

"REI’s guarantee doesn’t cover ordinary wear and tear or damage caused by improper use or accidents.

If your item has a manufacturing defect in its materials or workmanship, you can return it at any time. See our limited warranty.

You can return or exchange purchases from REI or REI-OUTLET by mail or at any of our retail locations, regardless of whether you made your purchase online, by phone or in an REI store."

[MattTuck]

Was bound to happen eventually.

I blame the millenial generation. punks.

[4Rings6Stars]

I think it's a smart move. LL Bean should do the same.

The amount of lowlifes I see abusing the policy every time I visit one of the stores is disgusting.

[AngryScientist]

that's still more than fair.

it's embarrassing the number of used shoes that i see when i go to the REI garage sales, that and general camping equipment like tents. this stuff has clearly been used by people, and used pretty hard for a trip or three and returned. i would never consider returning a pair of hiking shoes i wore for a few hundred miles, unless there was a gross manufacturing defect. people do indeed abuse the system, and that's not fair.

[false_Aest]

lets hope it doesn't happen to LL Bean

[MattTuck]

i would never consider returning a pair of hiking shoes i wore for a few hundred miles, unless there was a gross manufacturing defect.

Nick, that's because you have ethics.

[4Rings6Stars]

Was bound to happen eventually.

I blame the millenial generation. punks.

ahem.

FWIW, from the looks of the folks standing in line to exchange their worn out 25 year old hiking boots (or worse, stuff they bought at Goodwill), I blame the baby boomers...

[MattTuck]

ahem.

FWIW, from the looks of the folks standing in line to exchange their worn out 25 year old hiking boots (or worse, stuff they bought at Goodwill), I blame the baby boomers...

I blame them for most of the problems we face today. I guess I can add REI return policy to the list. I do think there is a certain self absorbed/me, me, me/lack of empathy in the current young people... but maybe every generation has those people.

[J.Greene]

Sounds really fair and common sensical to me. At some point we need to take responsibility for our own satisfaction and I'd feel embarrassed to go a year.

[Nags&Ducs]

It's too bad but the number of people abusing the policy seems to have increased greatly over the last decade.

"REI has one of the best return policies in retail, and we remain committed
to your satisfaction with everything you buy at REI. We also have a
small, but growing, number of customers who stretch our policy beyond
its intended purpose. To ensure that we can continue to offer our 100%
Satisfaction Guarantee, we're updating our policy: You have one year
from purchase to return or exchange any item you're not satisfied with,
except items purchased from REI-OUTLET, which must be returned
within 30 days of purchase. If you want to learn more, please click here.
These updates enable us to maintain our robust policy and, as always,
stand behind all purchases made at REI and REI-OUTLET."

"REI’s guarantee doesn’t cover ordinary wear and tear or damage caused by improper use or accidents.

If your item has a manufacturing defect in its materials or workmanship, you can return it at any time. See our limited warranty.

You can return or exchange purchases from REI or REI-OUTLET by mail or at any of our retail locations, regardless of whether you made your purchase online, by phone or in an REI store."

I applaud rei. People who return **** after they abused it are low lifes. Period.

[Ardan MacNessa]

This could all be my fault.

I returned Dr. Bronner's Organic Liquid Soap - 4 oz. last month, empty and it was obvious there was some "private" hair clung to the container. They happily didn't ask questions and gave me a full refund of $4.25 when I actually paid $1.19 during an online promotion.

Or maybe it was the $44.95 Cocoon CoolMax Travel Sheet which my dog used for 18 months with clawed holes in various parts. Of course I didn't say the dog was using it ...even though it's hard to explain black and white curly hair embedded throughout the garment. They grumbled but refunded the total amount happily so seemed.

More so perhaps returning the [8] Mombasa Nimbus Mosquito Nets for $35.00 ea. I used those to filtre my biodiesel home made brew. They were excellent in separation of fried food fats and the lime cleansing. They were a little skeptical over the "fast food odor" off all the mosquito nets and the "pasty film" that covered them from corner to corner, but over all they HAD TO REFUND ME! and They did.

Circle Hug.

I love REI. They're so cool and hip and stuff.



___________________________
does this sound like the zillions of posts we all read on the internet about REI?

[crossjunkee]

Good! The abuse is out of control. I was standing behind a guy returning a pair of Chaco's he'd worn the crap out of for well over a year. They gave him a brand new pair. They still have a problem, a year is a long time. I can buy a snowboard in Oct, use it through April, then return it. That's a better deal than renting!

This video also gets me going.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NGVjR4o2RU

[thenewguy11]

That video is nuts - and the comments somehow come around to blaming REI for putting small shops out of business. What is wrong with people?

As a mild aside, I was a little perturbed by a purchase yesterday from REI. I sprung for a Garmin 810 but they didn't have anything unopened so I took the display model (and a 5% discount). I assumed, wrongly as it turned out, that the unit was unused except for sitting in the display case. Turns out it was a returned item, because there were probably a dozen rides still stored on the computer. Is this typical?

Computer works fine and has no cosmetic damage I can see so I don't really care just thought it was interesting that wasn't disclosed. Honestly, I'd be surprised if the floor guy even knew.

[eddief]

they can offer pricing that is more competitive :)

[shovelhd]

Was bound to happen eventually.

I blame the millenial generation. punks.

I blame the slickdeals/fatwallet generation, which knows no age or ethical bounds.

[vqdriver]

i don't have problems with paying full retail at rei. my buying experiences have been consistently better there and i love that i can wander the store and talk to people who actually use the stuff they're selling and who seem to genuinely enjoy being there. i'm totally ok with whatever changes they make to their return policy.

to be honest, i had no idea it was what it was. they're REDUCING the return period to 1 year? holy cow. how long was it before?
some items like old school north face and patagonia had lifetime warranties so i could see them acting as a retail go between for warranty claims. but could you really return a pair of shoes or snowboard after more than a year of use? wow :eek:

[buldogge]

This is a valid point.

Obviously the policy abuse is out of control...but...

They are gonna have to sell at something other than MSRP to remain competitive.

Let's face it...all of us...buy at REI at least partially because of the implied warranty.

As an example, I probably won't buy any more Sahara convertible pants as they always seem to fail (seams) at some point.

I've only returned a handful of things over the years...most involved seam/stitch/fabric failure on non-abused items...FWIW.

-Mark in St. Louis

they can offer pricing that is more competitive :)

[1centaur]

Assuming management is rational, they were pricing their return policy into their offering price. X% return y% of items in z condition, present value the loss, calculate the profit margin. Gross up the revenue a bit for extra sales to reflect the policy. So many assumptions, many of them wrong. The 1-year limit just changes the equation a little. Balance the extra sales with the extra loss, watch that balance get out of balance, adjust the balance. Do customer surveys - what % of customers pay up with us because of our policy but never return stuff. What % of customers say we're overpriced and are not returners by nature? Retail is such a tough game to play, especially as culture changes.

[MadRocketSci]

REI is a coop, no? I would think all the lost $$ to the returns would come out of our dividends.

- returner of a nalgene water bottle that cracked when i chucked it off a boulder into a sand bar before i had to jump off said boulder into a pool of cold water below it at Zion NP...hey, they told me it was "indestructable" :)

[alexstar]

REI is a coop, no? I would think all the lost $$ to the returns would come out of our dividends.

- returner of a nalgene water bottle that cracked when i chucked it off a boulder into a sand bar before i had to jump off said boulder into a pool of cold water below it at Zion NP...hey, they told me it was "indestructable" :)

I'd say you're OK - a friend of mine was rock climbing and dropped his Nalgene bottle 400 feet. Didn't break.

FWIW I have been a member of REI since 1996 - I have bought a lot of things and never returned anything, although their warranty and customer service (excellent) certainly influence my buying decisions.

[HenryA]

Assuming management is rational, they were pricing their return policy into their offering price. X% return y% of items in z condition, present value the loss, calculate the profit margin. Gross up the revenue a bit for extra sales to reflect the policy. So many assumptions, many of them wrong. The 1-year limit just changes the equation a little. Balance the extra sales with the extra loss, watch that balance get out of balance, adjust the balance. Do customer surveys - what % of customers pay up with us because of our policy but never return stuff. What % of customers say we're overpriced and are not returners by nature? Retail is such a tough game to play, especially as culture changes.

^this^

And:
The problem is of their own creation. This is something that small retailers can't offer because of the huge overhead of handling the returns and the lack of any leverage with vendors. Big outfits have used this for years to bludgeon the little guys. Its completely unreasonable to expect to buy something middlin' crappy from a place like REI and expect it to last forever. And that is just what they ask you to do - at least for the little while you are there spending. Later you are supposed to forget that part of the bargain.

The policy creates a rationally unworkable but very attractive image in the minds of buyers. And while the buyers who are overwhelmingly in favor of these kind of deals have less than normal understanding of commerce, they can be bought by an illusion. Someone is paying for this and its everyone who ever bought anything from REI or other such joints.

While I'm not much of a fan of their model or stores or selection of merchandise, I do buy something there from time to time. But its hard when most of the selection is middle of the road at best and largely presented on price point and without relation to merit in use or longevity. But then I'm one of those weirdos who want to buy something of high quality and use it forever.

I miss the old time outdoor hardware intensive stores. That's "hardware" in outdoor gear, and not related to the fashion and image business most "outdoors stores" currently pander.

[wc1934]

REI is a coop, no? I would think all the lost $$ to the returns would come out of our dividends....

I believe your dividends are based upon your total purchases through out the year - the more you spend, the greater your dividend - I don't believe it has anything to do with company profits.

[pbarry]

I went to their Garage Sale last year and picked up an unused pair of Sidi Genius road shoes, missing one buckle. The attached return tag read, "missing buckle". $49.95 + a recycled buckle from my old pair. Obviously, Sidi did not ship the shoes sans one buckle, and someone got a free one. I'll miss deals like that, but it's about time they made a change.

As a manufacturer with a 600-800% markup, Patagonia can continue to offer their lifetime return policy. A retailer with a vastly different margin cannot match that.

[rice rocket]

1 year is fair.

Although, they could've just separated it as "new/like-new items can be returned", and "clearly used items, please claim through your warranty after 1 year".

Costco is still unlimited, thankfully. They'll handle my broken Hoover wetvac every time (which invariably breaks every year, I think I'm on my third).

[rugbysecondrow]

Was bound to happen eventually.

I blame the millenial generation. punks.

Bull**** statement Matt.

[DRZRM]

By my read, there is nothing in the new policy likely to interrupt that type of abuse. Whoever took the buckle and returned the shoe probably didn't wait more than a year to return. Such deals will likely continue. My favorite that I saw in the clearance bin was a Leatherman Wave that was well used (it had been sharpened several times) and was actually engraved.

I went to their Garage Sale last year and picked up an unused pair of Sidi Genius road shoes, missing one buckle. The attached return tag read, "missing buckle". $49.95 + a recycled buckle from my old pair. Obviously, Sidi did not ship the shoes sans one buckle, and someone got a free one. I'll miss deals like that, but it's about time they made a change.

As a manufacturer with a 600-800% markup, Patagonia can continue to offer their lifetime return policy. A retailer with a vastly different margin cannot match that.

[Andrewlcox]

I visited a REI in Denver down by a river and a salesperson was describing the 100% satisfaction guarantee to me. He told me of a story of a couple returning down sleeping bags over 20 or 30 years old because they had lost their fluffiness and REI took them back and sent them away with $250 sleeping bags.

[Ken Robb]

1 year is fair.

Although, they could've just separated it as "new/like-new items can be returned", and "clearly used items, please claim through your warranty after 1 year".

Costco is still unlimited, thankfully. They'll handle my broken Hoover wetvac every time (which invariably breaks every year, I think I'm on my third).

In their culture such a policy is viewed as naive and deserving of exploitation so the behavior is perfectly understandable. QUOTE/

Well I thought I was making a generalized statement pointing out how different cultural backgrounds can and does lead to very different attitudes and behaviors under similar circumstances. We had posters stating their dismay/disapproval of people they regarded as taking unfair advantage of a liberal return policy and I was pointing out that other cultures have very different ideas as to what is "fair". I deliberately didn't name the group because I wasn't intending to slam any ethnicity but merely wanted to remind folks that the old adage "when in Rome do as the Romans do" isn't always the way things play out.

[vqdriver]

I visited a REI in Denver down by a river and a salesperson was describing the 100% satisfaction guarantee to me. He told me of a story of a couple returning down sleeping bags over 20 or 30 years old because they had lost their fluffiness and REI took them back and sent them away with $250 sleeping bags.

Ugh

I'd be so ashamed to even try something like that.

[nm87710]

:)

[DRZRM]

Ken,

I'd like to politely and civilly point out that your association of people who abuse Costco's return policy and any "large ethnic community of immigrants from a certain area" smacks of racism and is deeply offensive. Please don't take this as a personal attack, I obviously don't know you as an individual and have no idea what your views are as to racial minorities or immigrants. That said, I believe the above statement clearly crosses the line of permissible language we've all agreed to by becoming members, and I wanted you to understand that your language is easily interpretable as racist and xenophobic. Just to be clear, I'm not calling you a racist, I'm not even certain I know what group you are talking about. This is not a critique of you, it is a critique of what seems to be a quite hurtful statement that you have publicly associated with you name and reputation.

Best,

Zach



COSTCO has recently limited returns on electronics to 90 days. I don't know how they classify vacuums. In San Diego there is a large ethnic community of
immigrants from a certain area who are well-known for using stuff they buy up to the cutoff date of the warranty and then trading the items for brand new ones under unconditional warranty at COSTCO. In their culture such a policy is viewed as naive and deserving of exploitation so the behavior is perfectly understandable. Since it's a membership store and all purchases are recorded in one's "dossier" I think if I were in charge I would establish some limits on repeated purchases and returns of similar items. Maybe it would cause legal problems for profiling deadbeats. :)

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I guess I have been a major abuser of REI's return policy in the past (I haven't returned anything used in about 6 or 7 years. But I remember quite clearly the last piece of used equipment I returned. It was right around 2006 and Black Diamond had just radically redesigned their Sabretooth Crampons. I returned my old Sabretooth crampons after about 1 year of use, and when the customer service associate asked me the reason for the return, I stated it was because Black Diamond had come out with a completely new design of crampon. The associate looked a bit confused for maybe a second, but then proceeded to process the return as usual.

In mitigation, at one point I learned that REI has quite generous return allowances with its vendors such that the cost of the returns is generally passed on to the vendors (not factoring in transaction costs for REI employees processing returns). I thus rationalized in my mind that REI's higher retail prices (compared to other internet retailers) supported the generous return policy.

I guess I'll have to revisit that calculus now.

[Bruce K]

People;

Let's be REAL careful with our comments here and stick to the pluses ands used of REI's policy.

BK

[rugbysecondrow]

Ken,

I'd like to politely and civilly point out that your association of people who abuse Costco's return policy and any "large ethnic community of immigrants from a certain area" smacks of racism and is deeply offensive. Please don't take this as a personal attack, I obviously don't know you as an individual and have no idea what your views are as to racial minorities or immigrants. That said, I believe the above statement clearly crosses the line of permissible language we've all agreed to by becoming members, and I wanted you to understand that your language is easily interpretable as racist and xenophobic. Just to be clear, I'm not calling you a racist, I'm not even certain I know what group you are talking about. This is not a critique of you, it is a critique of what seems to be a quite hurtful statement that you have publicly associated with you name and reputation.

Best,

Zach

Too funny. You don't know enough about what Ken is saying to even know what ethnic group he is talking about, but it is enough for you to take offense (DEEP offense) and call it racist? Huh?

Can we step back for a minute and realize that there are ethnic and cultural difference among us. Many of these differences fold into our American culture well, others operate concurrently just fine and others seem to run contrary to accepted norms...this is not a bad thing and referencing such a things is not bad. We might have a misunderstanding about these things or disagreement, but that also does not make it racist.

Since when did we put our panties on so tight that referring to an unnamed ethnic group and their use of a return policy was enough to gasp and to take offense and start throwing around the word racist? Are we so anti-intellectual where any mention of any difference in culture or ethnic group results in whiplash accusations rather than a discussion?

I don't know what group Ken was talking about. I don't know that I agree with him or not, but that is a far distance away from saying it was racist and offensive.

[ofcounsel]

Too funny. You don't know enough about what Ken is saying to even know what ethnic group he is talking about, but it is enough for you to take offense (DEEP offense) and call it racist? Huh?

Can we step back for a minute and realize that there are ethnic and cultural difference among us. Many of these differences fold into our American culture well, others operate concurrently just fine and others seem to run contrary to accepted norms...this is not a bad thing and referencing such a things is not bad. We might have a misunderstanding about these things or disagreement, but that also does not make it racist.

Since when did we put our panties on so tight that referring to an unnamed ethnic group and their use of a return policy was enough to gasp and to take offense and start throwing around the word racist? Are we so anti-intellectual where any mention of any difference in culture or ethnic group results in whiplash accusations rather than a discussion?

I don't know what group Ken was talking about. I don't know that I agree with him or not, but that is a far distance away from saying it was racist and offensive.

I saw Ken Robb's post last night, but didn't comment. I didn't take "deep offense," because I have no idea who he's talking about. Being familiar with the area, however, it did make me think of ethnic groups around San Diego, near the border, and my initial reaction was "wow... that's such an ugly, sad comment, lumping a whole community to one thought and characteristic. "

So, before you go talking about whiplash accusations....take a step back when you think about which comments in the thread were truly "anti-intellectual."

[rugbysecondrow]

I saw Ken Robb's post last night, but didn't comment. I didn't take "deep offense," because I have no idea who he's talking about. Being familiar with the area, however, it did make me think of ethnic groups around San Diego, near the border, and my initial reaction was "wow... that's such an ugly, sad comment, lumping a whole community to one thought and characteristic. "

So, before you go talking about whiplash accusations....take a step back when you think about which comments in the thread were truly "anti-intellectual."

And oddly enough, you were the first person on this board who I thought of when the REI return policy thread was started. I wasn't going to name you, but since you are here already, you are one of the guilty people taking advantage of the system, which has since ruined the policy for the rest of us. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=112916&highlight=REI&page=2

I waited tables for years, elderly people were the worst tippers, nect to lawyers. If a guy came in with mud on his shoes, dirt on his pants...he was going to tip much better. Sorry, we can ignore profiles, we can ignore prejudgements, and sometimes we are wrong, but prejudgements exist not in a vacuum, they are often born in reality. Isn't this what lawyers do when selecting a jury, profile based on limited information?


People get lumped together all the time. It seems acceptable to recognize differences when when we are talking about voting blocks, issue politics, advirtising etc. It seems ok to do it when we are talking about scholastic achievement or even a zealousness of parenting (tiger mom anybody). It seems OK to do it when we are talking about affirmative action and hiring, school acceptance etc. It seems popular to do it when folks talk about the "Ugly American". My man, groups are out there, there are blocks of people. Ignoring that they are present, ignoring that there are charectoristics of groups is anti-intelectual. We might disagree with what somebody says and they might prove themselves to be ignorant, but it is just as ignorant to ignore that we have a diverse society with many different groups and these groups have norms or differences than one another. Pointing it out isn't racist, even if that aspect is negative.

[AngryScientist]

i'll put it right out there: anyone who returns year old bibshorts because they lost weight, and they no longer fit, is EXACTLY what's wrong with the system.

anyone who does that should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.

[Bruce K]

And now we're drifting into choppy waters.

Before this becomes another storm let's get back on topic or move on

Please

BK

[DRZRM]

Rugbysecondrow,

For what it is worth, I said it "smacks of" and is "easily interpretable as" racism. I used racism as a shorthand and should have been more clear with my language. A pejorative description of behavior being assigned broadly to a ethnic, racial, religious or national group is prejudicial and offensive. To call it racist assumes that Ken was describing a group that is assumed to be racially distinct from Americans, though nailing down the race of "America" is already a fruitless endeavor. Does the statement become less offensive if Ken was talking about Iranians, Brazilians, Irish, Polish, Korean or Mexican immigrants? It does not matter at all which group was the target of the slur, it remains offensive.

That it does not offend you or any other individual here is enlightening, but not relevant. We all agree to the User Agreement that:

The Paceline Forum is NOT . . .

• For persons to express negative feelings for persons of any gender, race, religion, national origin, etc. The Paceline will not tolerate bigotry in any form, including posts intended to incite expressions of bigotry from others.

Again, I'm not trying to personalize this. You have the right to forgive or critique the social behavior of your friends and colleagues however you see fit in private, but this is a community in which many people participate, and the rules are clear.

Post edit: Sorry Bruce, I wrote this before you wrote that. I'm all done here.

Too funny. You don't know enough about what Ken is saying to even know what ethnic group he is talking about, but it is enough for you to take offense (DEEP offense) and call it racist? Huh?

Can we step back for a minute and realize that there are ethnic and cultural difference among us. Many of these differences fold into our American culture well, others operate concurrently just fine and others seem to run contrary to accepted norms...this is not a bad thing and referencing such a things is not bad. We might have a misunderstanding about these things or disagreement, but that also does not make it racist.

Since when did we put our panties on so tight that referring to an unnamed ethnic group and their use of a return policy was enough to gasp and to take offense and start throwing around the word racist? Are we so anti-intellectual where any mention of any difference in culture or ethnic group results in whiplash accusations rather than a discussion?

I don't know what group Ken was talking about. I don't know that I agree with him or not, but that is a far distance away from saying it was racist and offensive.

[Bikerist]

......Are we so anti-intellectual where any mention of any difference in culture or ethnic group results in whiplash accusations rather than a discussion?....

Yes! It is a sad state of affairs that will ultimately advance prejudice instead of reduce it. Pretending we are all the same is just that, pretending.

[rugbysecondrow]

The Paceline Forum is NOT . . .

• For persons to express negative feelings for persons of any gender, race, religion, national origin, etc. The Paceline will not tolerate bigotry in any form, including posts intended to incite expressions of bigotry from others.



I don't think Ken expressed a negative feeling (I don't think it was a feeling at all actually). It was a statement, a thought which you disagree with.

In any event, it is a shame that REI changed its policy.

[yngpunk]

To get this thread back on topic:

[QUOTE=HenryA;1362109I miss the old time outdoor hardware intensive stores. That's "hardware" in outdoor gear, and not related to the fashion and image business most "outdoors stores" currently pander.[/QUOTE]

These do still exist, but mostly in "mountain" towns catering to the enthusiasts who need to discuss what rope/anchors/etc. are needed for the local climbs and where those climbs are. Telluride is one of these towns that probably has more than its fair share of outdoor hardware intensive stores.

[ofcounsel]

And oddly enough, you were the first person on this board who I thought of when the REI return policy thread was started. I wasn't going to name you, but since you are here already, you are one of the guilty people taking advantage of the system, which has since ruined the policy for the rest of us. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=112916&highlight=REI&page=2

I waited tables for years, elderly people were the worst tippers, nect to lawyers. If a guy came in with mud on his shoes, dirt on his pants...he was going to tip much better. Sorry, we can ignore profiles, we can ignore prejudgements, and sometimes we are wrong, but prejudgements exist not in a vacuum, they are often born in reality. Isn't this what lawyers do when selecting a jury, profile based on limited information?


People get lumped together all the time. It seems acceptable to recognize differences when when we are talking about voting blocks, issue politics, advirtising etc. It seems ok to do it when we are talking about scholastic achievement or even a zealousness of parenting (tiger mom anybody). It seems OK to do it when we are talking about affirmative action and hiring, school acceptance etc. It seems popular to do it when folks talk about the "Ugly American". My man, groups are out there, there are blocks of people. Ignoring that they are present, ignoring that there are charectoristics of groups is anti-intelectual. We might disagree with what somebody says and they might prove themselves to be ignorant, but it is just as ignorant to ignore that we have a diverse society with many different groups and these groups have norms or differences than one another. Pointing it out isn't racist, even if that aspect is negative.

Funny, I immediately thought of myself when this post came up as well. Recall that though that prior post I realized I was wrong and amditted as much. As embarrassed as I felt, I grew a bit from others comments. And I'm still around.

I didn't call anyone out as racist. I said I though it was a sad, ugly statement. I Agree we are a diverse society, so much so that it's ignorant to paint a large swath of people with the same brush. That's what is sad and ugly about it.

As far as what trial attorneys do and how they make assumptions based on limited info, I can't speak to that, as I'm not a trial attorney. But I can tell you I would be quickly out of a job if I made snap judgements on limited information. My practice requires that I take in all relavent facts before advising a client on a decision.

[rugbysecondrow]

But I can tell you I would be quickly out of a job if I made snap judgements on limited information. My practice requires that I take in all relavent facts before advising a client on a decision.

Here is the thing, we all make snap judgements based on a prejudice or prejudgement, people do it all the time here when they talk about pick-up drivers (agressive) or SUV soccer moms (not paying attention)...it is inevitable. Whether are you rigid to those or flexible as new information comes to light is something else entirely. It is what allows you to size up a situation on a dark street quickly. Lets face it, a 20 year old dressed like a thug raises different thoughts than a 70 year old woman walking a poodle.

Profiling, snap judgements, prejudgements etc help to save our lives, keep us out of danger and helps us process information in real time very quickly. They help us focus our thoughts and efforts. In the professional world, the process is more developed and called "evidence based practices". Creating a profile of a group of people which helps to focus efforts in a more efficient way.

We might not like that folks create snap judgements, but it is true and it is inevitable.

[mhespenheide]

Mark,

I am not affiliated with REI past being a member and customer, but as it was explained to me, you coud keep returning those Sahara pants for their "lifetime", if the reason for the return is a manufacturing defect.

If something goes wrong that isn't due to normal wear and tear, you're covered. To put it into a context of cycling, though, it was potentially possible in the past to have bought inner tubes from REI and then return them when you flatted, because "you weren't satisfied with them" and they were obligated to take them back.

The new policy seems quite reasonable to me.

Cheers,
Mark in Utah.


...Let's face it...all of us...buy at REI at least partially because of the implied warranty.

As an example, I probably won't buy any more Sahara convertible pants as they always seem to fail (seams) at some point.

I've only returned a handful of things over the years...most involved seam/stitch/fabric failure on non-abused items...FWIW.

-Mark in St. Louis

[MadRocketSci]

I believe your dividends are based upon your total purchases through out the year - the more you spend, the greater your dividend - I don't believe it has anything to do with company profits.

i guess my point was that as a coop, the members are like the "owners" of the profits. After you've paid those directors, store employees, maintanence, upgrades, catalogs, and non-recoverable losses from returns, the members share the leftovers, correct? Yes, its understood that it's based on the amount of purchases you make, which seems like a perfectly equitable way to distribute them to me.

[rice rocket]

i guess my point was that as a coop, the members are like the "owners" of the profits. After you've paid those directors, store employees, maintanence, upgrades, catalogs, and non-recoverable losses from returns, the members share the leftovers, correct? Yes, its understood that it's based on the amount of purchases you make, which seems like a perfectly equitable way to distribute them to me.

Its just accounting tricks and pushing numbers around on a spreadsheet. Since the member rebate is always fixed at 10% of your purchases, it's really no different than giving you that same percent as a discount, right? Their operating margin changes YOY (like if they open 10 new stores one year versus 2 the year before, or if they take a huge loss from overstocking their warehouse), and this isn't reflected in your annual kickback.

[Ken Robb]

In their culture such a policy is viewed as naive and deserving of exploitation so the behavior is perfectly understandable. QUOTE/

Well I thought I was making a generalized statement pointing out how different cultural backgrounds can and does lead to very different attitudes and behaviors under similar circumstances. We had posters stating their dismay/disapproval of people they regarded as taking unfair advantage of a liberal return policy and I was pointing out that other cultures have very different ideas as to what is "fair". I deliberately didn't name the group because I wasn't intending to slam any ethnicity but merely wanted to remind folks that the old adage "when in Rome do as the Romans do" isn't always the way things play out.

I seem to have messed up my original post trying to add this clarification. Try and apply this info to what you may remember from earlier posts.

[Ken Robb]

error

[SamIAm]

Since when did we put our panties on so tight that referring to an unnamed ethnic group and their use of a return policy was enough to gasp and to take offense and start throwing around the word racist? Are we so anti-intellectual where any mention of any difference in culture or ethnic group results in whiplash accusations rather than a discussion?



What he said.

[merlinmurph]

Its just accounting tricks and pushing numbers around on a spreadsheet. Since the member rebate is always fixed at 10% of your purchases, it's really no different than giving you that same percent as a discount, right? Their operating margin changes YOY (like if they open 10 new stores one year versus 2 the year before, or if they take a huge loss from overstocking their warehouse), and this isn't reflected in your annual kickback.

That's just it - the rebate percentage changes every year depending on profits.