Serotta over there

[Jack Brunk]

Man there's some nice looking frames on the salon forum. Surprised the CEO didn't post them here but they look really nice. Carry on.

[jpw]

link please.

[Dave B]

check out the friday night lights section.

They (serotta) are doing some neat stuff. Keep it up.

[Nooch]

I'm sure they'll end up in the Serotta thread over here, as well -- usually a day or two behind.

That small ottrot came out of our shop -- I've got a bunch more pics that I'm working on getting up on our site. built up with super record EPS.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3758/8901404988_e67243cf2d_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54300653@N02/8901404988/)
IMG_5281 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54300653@N02/8901404988/) by TrickImaging (http://www.flickr.com/people/54300653@N02/), on Flickr

[DreaminJohn]

Perhaps our friend RustyLion is still shell-shocked from his previous posts here.

Just sayin'.

[Dave B]

Perhaps our friend RustyLion is still shell-shocked from his previous posts here.

Just sayin'.

I think his skin is pretty thick and he has had it worse elsewhere.

I am excited to see what he does next.

[FlashUNC]

I think his skin is pretty thick and he has had it worse elsewhere.

I am excited to see what he does next.

FWIW, got it far worse across the hall in terms of criticism.

I think he's proven he's pretty thick-skinned about this stuff.

[Dave B]

FWIW, got it far worse across the hall in terms of criticism.

I think he's proven he's pretty thick-skinned about this stuff.

;)

yep

[rpm]

The frames are on Serotta's facebook page and web site:

http://serotta.com/cool-stuff-gallery-may-30-2013/

[mike p]

I'm quite sure Bill can handle whatever we can dish out and more. He didn't get where he is in life by being easily offended.
It's going to be a slow process to turn things around at Serotta but they're making progress already and I really think Rusty Lion (Bill) is the right man for the job. Those bikes look great!

Mike

Perhaps our friend RustyLion is still shell-shocked from his previous posts here.

Just sayin'.

[PaMtbRider]

I am glad to see they are getting their mojo back. I think the aesthetics of some of their recent frames are great.

[LegendRider]

I can't put my finger on exactly why, but my dream bike might now be a MeiVici with DA 9070 rather than a C59 or Parlee. I've got my fingers crossed that Serotta is turning the corner and will return to its place among the best and most desired frames made.

[jpw]

I'm sure they'll end up in the Serotta thread over here, as well -- usually a day or two behind.

That small ottrot came out of our shop -- I've got a bunch more pics that I'm working on getting up on our site. built up with super record EPS.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3758/8901404988_e67243cf2d_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54300653@N02/8901404988/)
IMG_5281 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54300653@N02/8901404988/) by TrickImaging (http://www.flickr.com/people/54300653@N02/), on Flickr

looks like you found the one square yard of shadow :)

[Nooch]

looks like you found the one square yard of shadow :)

sure did -- that one didn't come out quite as I had hoped...

[rustylion]

bill here from Serotta.

We are doing our best to balance the presentation of what we are doing each week across all our online touchpoints. We are trying to pick and choose in some sort of way so all of you don't feel like we are just using the forums as some sort of collective megaphone. There is not really a system of what goes where and when (at least, I don't think so) but more a judicious sharing of what might be fun to see about what we are doing. Does that make sense?

As to my skin, yep, it is thick. I have a life principle "Love others, live with empathy and stand your ground." By that I mean, everyone I come in contact is certainly valuable in the eyes of God and also has every right to their opinions. But, because no one ever confused me with a diplomat or a politician, I don't do or say whatever so you that like me. I will be "me" through and through without wavering...but always do so knowing I am seeing life through my eyes (and they have been often wrong in the past) and that in ever interaction I am compelled to show respect and empathy. A little bit of rambling there but the bottom-line is: I encourage you to share your feedback whether you think I will like it or not.

Lastly, some of you have shared some positive encourgement for what you are observing happening at Serotta. Thanks for the kind words and your encouragement. Turning around Serotta is an Everest-sort of adventure…and one I love, thrive on and am good at. With that said, it will not be easy by any stretch and I cannot predict if we will summit or not. Weather conditions are unpredictable, chaos and sh_t happens and who knows how the marketplace will respond to our efforts. But, we have a plan, have a product, have a market and have a great team of people. That's enough for me to begin with so it "head down" and "climb on."

Thanks.

[J.Greene]

But, we have a plan, have a product, have a market and have great people. That's enough for me to begin with so it "head down" and "climb on."

Thanks.

thats like starting the sprint from second wheel.

[DreaminJohn]

Thanks very much for the response, Bill. It's really appreciated.

[Climb01742]

The frames are on Serotta's facebook page and web site:

http://serotta.com/cool-stuff-gallery-may-30-2013/

Wow, those are great looking. Far more sophisticated paint design and colors than I remember past serotta offerings. How a bike looks doesn't alter its performance but lordly a sweet looking rig is far more lust worthy and halos the brand, IMHO. Huge step in the right direction.;)

[beeatnik]

I can't put my finger on exactly why, but my dream bike might now be a MeiVici with DA 9070 rather than a C59 or Parlee. I've got my fingers crossed that Serotta is turning the corner and will return to its place among the best and most desired frames made.

I know the feeling.

[jlwdm]

Go to V Salon and read the last 5 or 6 or whatever pages on the Ballers Ride thread. Great riding and discussions with small builders and Rusty Lion and Serotta Scott. Lots of respect for the Serotta guys and where they are heading.

Jeff

[charliedid]

The frames are on Serotta's facebook page and web site:

http://serotta.com/cool-stuff-gallery-may-30-2013/

Those look really great, I gotta say.

[slidey]

Spot on! Finally some striking and vibrant colours...fantastico! :banana:

Unbelievable how much the appearance of the bike is so damn important to change its image from a well reputed bike to an "I-want-that" bike, well at least to me.

Wow, those are great looking. Far more sophisticated paint design and colors than I remember past serotta offerings. How a bike looks doesn't alter its performance but lordly a sweet looking rig is far more lust worthy and halos the brand, IMHO. Huge step in the right direction.;)

[Ahneida Ride]

Great Post Bill !

[crupshaw]

Those are some hot looking bikes!

[4Rings6Stars]

Spot on! Finally some striking and vibrant colours...fantastico! :banana:

Unbelievable how much the appearance of the bike is so damn important to change its image from a well reputed bike to an "I-want-that" bike, well at least to me.

Agreed. That top one is great, one of the better schemes I have seen.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7347/8892785820_420f1a4647.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/serotta/8892785820/)
MeiVici SE in Dartmouth Green (http://www.flickr.com/photos/serotta/8892785820/) by SerottaCycles (http://www.flickr.com/people/serotta/), on Flickr

[Pete Mckeon]

I am biased on Serotta as I bet you knew. Yep I am also biased on Bill who I have known almost az long as Ben. Many decades:banana::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer: Hope to see Bill again this summer. He as a young racer helped Serotta in the 70s:)

bill here from Serotta.

We are doing our best to balance the presentation of what we are doing each week across all our online touchpoints. We are trying to pick and choose in some sort of way so all of you don't feel like we are just using the forums as some sort of collective megaphone. There is not really a system of what goes where and when (at least, I don't think so) but more a judicious sharing of what might be fun to see about what we are doing. Does that make sense?

As to my skin, yep, it is thick. I have a life principle "Love others, live with empathy and stand your ground." By that I mean, everyone I come in contact is certainly valuable in the eyes of God and also has every right to their opinions. But, because no one ever confused me with a diplomat or a politician, I don't do or say whatever so you that like me. I will be "me" through and through without wavering...but always do so knowing I am seeing life through my eyes (and they have been often wrong in the past) and that in ever interaction I am compelled to show respect and empathy. A little bit of rambling there but the bottom-line is: I encourage you to share your feedback whether you think I will like it or not.

Lastly, some of you have shared some positive encourgement for what you are observing happening at Serotta. Thanks for the kind words and your encouragement. Turning around Serotta is an Everest-sort of adventure…and one I love, thrive on and am good at. With that said, it will not be easy by any stretch and I cannot predict if we will summit or not. Weather conditions are unpredictable, chaos and sh_t happens and who knows how the marketplace will respond to our efforts. But, we have a plan, have a product, have a market and have a great team of people. That's enough for me to begin with so it "head down" and "climb on."

Thanks.

[buddybikes]

My Serotta built Fat Chance is on it's 14th year. Considering putting disc mounts to carry me through retirement. Nice bike!

[Nooch]

http://thecyclesportexperience.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/img_5270.jpg?w=675

more: http://www.thecyclesportexperience.com

[pdmtong]

Hmmm a little color and everyone grabs a bib.

Serotta did and still can build a bike that looks drool-worthy.

So if I send my ottrott back to get re-painted, and it comes out looking all ooh-ahh, you guys gonna give it more love? AFAIK yesterday's ottrott/mevici is today's ottrott/mevici.

Those FNL bikes....no doubt a step in the right direction. Market a bike that evokes emotion.

Although we now have nicer paint jobs there are still only a handful of people who can afford them. Serotta has to make room at the summit for a lot more customers.

[firerescuefin]

So if I send my ottrott back to get re-painted, and it comes out looking all ooh-ahh, you guys gonna give it more love?

SEND IT BACK....SEND IT BACK....SEND IT BACK :cool:

Did you really just ask that question;)

One's perception is their reality. RustyL is heading in the right direction.

[pdmtong]

SEND IT BACK....SEND IT BACK....SEND IT BACK :cool:

Did you really just ask that question;)

One's perception is their reality. RustyL is heading in the right direction.

Agreed...its one step in the right direction

As for my ottrott...it's already outrageous enough. If I make it pearl white instead I think I would be disrespecting the heritage

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=99609&stc=1&d=1343950637

There is a way to copy an image from another thread into a second thread but I forgot how to do it....

[rustylion]

Now, wait just a minute. The summit of pricing? Handful of people? I am happy to have an online or offline conversation about our pricing.

Why? Because after lots of research, capturing what we actually do (and why) and re-positioning of the product line (including several price changes), I firmly believe that we are competitive when you make a true apples-to-apples comparison. I am new to the cycling industry - maybe I don't know what I am talking about! So, I more than happy to have you or anyone elese call me on this (with specifics, please)...but let's not simply generalize by pulling our past into our present.

"Serotta is in the stratosphere" is yesterday's news, in my very humble opinion. We have $3,000 - $8,000 framesets and complete bikes (with pretty awesome build kits) starting at $4,000. You may consider these "stratospheric" and because we don't (or won't) have complete bikes in a $2,000 price range, maybe for some we are "way too high."

So, do we stand at the higher edges of the price spectrum? Sure, I will give you that. I think, though, with some careful study of the brand and intimate knowledge of what we actually do when we design/engineer/build a bike, we would be disrespecting forty years of DNA/heritage as well as all of today's Serotta talent/skills/resources to focus on driving our business/brand/product towards the bottom of the market. I contend it is important to analyze the market and the company to determine a go-forward strategy. We have done so and there are other good companies way more capable of winning the race to the bottom.

Nicer paint jobs are only a tiny part of our today story. But, I think for the entire package of what we deliver - and I am very happy to list all the details that go into even a $3,000 frameset or a $4,000 complete bike - we are competitive. We may not have been yesterday but, today, we are worth a look.

Are we the right brand at the right price for everyone? No. And, that's fine because there are lots of good bikes and brands out there to choose from. We will take our small piece and simply keep working with our heads down...

Thanks.

Hmmm a little color and everyone grabs a bib.

Serotta did and still can build a bike that looks drool-worthy.

So if I send my ottrott back to get re-painted, and it comes out looking all ooh-ahh, you guys gonna give it more love? AFAIK yesterday's ottrott/mevici is today's ottrott/mevici.

Those FNL bikes....no doubt a step in the right direction. Market a bike that evokes emotion.

Although we now have nicer paint jobs there are still only a handful of people who can afford them. Serotta has to make room at the summit for a lot more customers.

[1centaur]

What does a can of worms sound like when it opens?

"When you make a true apples to apples comparison..."

And to keep the cliches coming, this is where the rubber meets the road. For many years, Serotta has suggested that it's a better built product, special in some way that others are not hitting, and when asked, "how?" the response has been close to crickets chirping.

I think the world (of those interested) believes a Serotta is really well built. When they buy other frames, they don't think they are badly built. Do the differentiating details that add up to the price point at Serotta actually matter to buyers? They either don't or the buyers don't understand why they should. Thus the mob cries for lower price points.

The problem, as in politics, is if you are spending your time explaining why you're better, you are losing the battle. A subtle drum beat of marketing that proves the quality point ad nauseum is the path to take, IMO.

To win, you must be BELIEVED better at the same price or the same at a lower price point. Or you must have some brand loyalty that overcomes other impressions. Build belief.

[Pete Mckeon]

As to lustful----you pick the scheme and/or colors for lust OR discuss with them. another excellent painter is on West coast, where I think you are is Joe Bell.

Over the years my frame has always come back looking new and knowing that frame has been checked out in non paint areas also. At the beginning of season is not the quickest with any painter usulaally because of increased demnd.:

Best of luck. Pete




Hmmm a little color and everyone grabs a bib.

Serotta did and still can build a bike that looks drool-worthy.

So if I send my ottrott back to get re-painted, and it comes out looking all ooh-ahh, you guys gonna give it more love? AFAIK yesterday's ottrott/mevici is today's ottrott/mevici.

Those FNL bikes....no doubt a step in the right direction. Market a bike that evokes emotion.

Although we now have nicer paint jobs there are still only a handful of people who can afford them. Serotta has to make room at the summit for a lot more customers.

[rustylion]

IMHO: 1) You don't see us or me spending time in here explaining why we are "better." 2) And, you don't see lots of cliches thrown around from us.

Instead, we or I have "steady drumbeat" tasks to do related to our long-term plan that will build "belief". It won't happen very fast but we keep at it.

But, you have seen and will continue to see me take time to correct what I believe to be over-generalized misperceptions. And, the themes that I take a stand on have been and will be common threads.

I believe you live reasonably close. Why not take me up on an invitation to come experience us for yourself? You don't have come to fall in love with us but rather come with a very discerning eye/ear. Then, determine for yourself whether what we way is in fact, what we do...and if it, in fact, has benefit. Or, better, go see our competitors, gather the same information and then, make your determination.

We can also enjoy a ride, a meal and some engaging conversation. Your opinion is valuable and appreciated whether you like us or not.

A trip takes time and your time is precious but I wanted to let you know I am happy to extend this invitation.

Thanks.

What does a can of worms sound like when it opens?

"When you make a true apples to apples comparison..."

And to keep the cliches coming, this is where the rubber meets the road. For many years, Serotta has suggested that it's a better built product, special in some way that others are not hitting, and when asked, "how?" the response has been close to crickets chirping.

I think the world (of those interested) believes a Serotta is really well built. When they buy other frames, they don't think they are badly built. Do the differentiating details that add up to the price point at Serotta actually matter to buyers? They either don't or the buyers don't understand why they should. Thus the mob cries for lower price points.

The problem, as in politics, is if you are spending your time explaining why you're better, you are losing the battle. A subtle drum beat of marketing that proves the quality point ad nauseum is the path to take, IMO.

To win, you must be BELIEVED better at the same price or the same at a lower price point. Or you must have some brand loyalty that overcomes other impressions. Build belief.

[Dave B]

Bro take that offer!

Bill, please fly me out for a tour! :banana::banana::banana: I can be very discerning and critical. I'll even be down right nasty if you want. ;)

I actually think that sounds awesome! Plus to use another cliche, he is putting his money where his mouth is! Awesome!

[1centaur]

I was not implying that you were spending time defending the quality (and the cliche remark was directed at myself). I was making the point that the perception of extra quality at a price point takes time and repetition and subtlety to seep into the belief system of the buying public. The discordant note was "apples to apples" which sounded like the old Serotta to me - self-belief to the exclusion of recognizing its lack in others. You have rarely hit a wrong note here or on VS since the comeback began, but that statement jangled memories of many an assertion over the years. Rather than declare apples to apples, post interesting videos here and on your site that show extra process>rationale>testimonial. Link the Serotta extras with happy riders methodically and repeatedly, then let prospects link their perceptions to price points. Don't be afraid to show unnamed competitor's frames cut open to show inferior process (you will know far better than your customers how to make comparisons on everything but ride impressions). This is what I meant by "build belief," which has nothing to do with me and my pathetically limited free time.

That said, your offer is very gracious and I can only wish my life accommodated such a trip.

[tch]

.. to put the "stratospheric" price complaint into perspective... check out Specialized -- since those bikes are the subject of a recent post. The Tarmac frameset is $3750. The complete bike with DI2 is $12,000.

Now how does Serotta look? It would not be hard to get even a Meivici with decent parts for $12,000. Would you rather have a generic Specialized bike ... or a Serotta hand-made to your own proportions and with a unique paint job? Your call.

I find ALL high-end road bikes outrageously expensive...but I no longer think Serotta sticks out like it used to.

[Bikerist]

Go to V Salon and read the last 5 or 6 or whatever pages on the Ballers Ride thread. Great riding and discussions with small builders and Rusty Lion and Serotta Scott. Lots of respect for the Serotta guys and where they are heading.

Jeff

Had not seen that. Thanks for the heads up. I suspect Gary of IF and Bill are birds of a feather in many ways.

[pdmtong]

Now, wait just a minute. The summit of pricing? Handful of people? I am happy to have an online or offline conversation about our pricing.

Why? Because after lots of research, capturing what we actually do (and why) and re-positioning of the product line (including several price changes), I firmly believe that we are competitive when you make a true apples-to-apples comparison. I am new to the cycling industry - maybe I don't know what I am talking about! So, I more than happy to have you or anyone elese call me on this (with specifics, please)...but let's not simply generalize by pulling our past into our present.

"Serotta is in the stratosphere" is yesterday's news, in my very humble opinion. We have $3,000 - $8,000 framesets and complete bikes (with pretty awesome build kits) starting at $4,000. You may consider these "stratospheric" and because we don't (or won't) have complete bikes in a $2,000 price range, maybe for some we are "way too high."

So, do we stand at the higher edges of the price spectrum? Sure, I will give you that. I think, though, with some careful study of the brand and intimate knowledge of what we actually do when we design/engineer/build a bike, we would be disrespecting forty years of DNA/heritage as well as all of today's Serotta talent/skills/resources to focus on driving our business/brand/product towards the bottom of the market. I contend it is important to analyze the market and the company to determine a go-forward strategy. We have done so and there are other good companies way more capable of winning the race to the bottom.

Nicer paint jobs are only a tiny part of our today story. But, I think for the entire package of what we deliver - and I am very happy to list all the details that go into even a $3,000 frameset or a $4,000 complete bike - we are competitive. We may not have been yesterday but, today, we are worth a look.

Are we the right brand at the right price for everyone? No. And, that's fine because there are lots of good bikes and brands out there to choose from. We will take our small piece and simply keep working with our heads down...

Thanks.

Hi Bill
This is my 3000th post and it seems appropriate that is about Serotta and with you because my purchasing a Serotta was the reason why I found the Forum in the first place.

In response to your post above, I made time to look through the Serotta website in it's entirety. Every tab, blog, news, gallery. The content and navigation are excellent. The information presented it far more detailed than many of your competitors sites and goes a long way to fostering the positioning of the brand and product you have been advocating. The anecdotes from ben, yourself, scott makes the site personable on top of the tech that some folks want. Chapeau!

I think the pricing on the SG models is market competitive. Certainly the usual suspects price their ti frames around the $4k range and I think they provide LESS information about the tubing, shaping etc that you have given.

My comments about price have more to do with the SE models. of course in the absolute they seem stratospheric. But you are not alone there. Many mfgs have a flagship whose price is "high". We live in a world of $10k mountain bikes now.

I dont think the website needs to justify the price - rather I do think the website should talk a bit more about why the gap between SG and SE. And for me, the website has to be the vehicle since despite being in the heart of silicon valley, the nearest serotta dealer is an hour away in SF and they just had 2 of the 3 owners walkout. I see lots of Looks, Colnagos, Moots, Pinarellos leaving the local boutiques - Serotta should be in competition for those dollars.

There are some really informative anecdotes about the SE models buried in paceline and vsalon - for instance, mike;'s comments about how varying the meivici lug layup/design affects the ride or scott's comments about the cutting edge aspects of the ottrott. clean these up a bit and they make great content for the site.

I think people ready to spend $6k+ on a f/f could still use a basic primer that a bike rides the way it does because of material, tubing (manipulation/shape/butting), assembly/joiniery. as well as the geometry.

What makes the SG models premium over the SE is not clear to me without a really detailed read of the website. it is cumbersome to SG vs. SE and it looks like much of the same content exists in both. I made the time, but the deltas need to pop more.

I was left with the basic idea the SG is simply a matter of custom geometry and a fork upgrade over the S3. Although, if I read the details, I see buried in the feature tab rider tuning vs size specific tuning. This is way to big a deal to be left to chance discovery...even the using tired content like "the SE has what the SG has but in addition you get....blah blah blah" would better surface these nuances

I'd also advocate examples about how you can choose different tubes and shapes for each location of the bike for different rider profiles (crit, century, all around) and talk at a high level as to how the customization process implemented a bespoke ride for those different needs. It makes it more tangible than "we can build anything you want". Then, people will "get" why the premium over SG might be something to aspire to.

I have appreciated you taking the time to share thoughts and directions on where you are leading Serotta. If you ever make it out west I'd enjoy raising a glass with you are hiding in in your slipstream out to the coast.

Paul

[bluesea]

If Serotta has a $3k racing frame/fork, then they are back.

[Nooch]

If Serotta has a $3k racing frame/fork, then they are back.

They do, or will, very shortly. $3295, frame and S5 fork.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=130679

[rustylion]

Thanks to all of you who have been weighing in with your thoughts but a real call out to 1centaur and Paul.

Both of you don't know it but you are confirming the tactical directions we are planning to use to take the brand into its future.

You are right that it makes little sense and has tiny impact for me (us) to put down into a bunch of words what we think you will want to know about Serotta and its differences to other brands. In the past, while we may have meant well, much of our ramblings were viewed as non-sensical, blustery and arrogant. Passionate we were but effective we were not.

We think you want the details of the "Serotta Difference" more clearly laid out and more readily available. Facts (not hype) are required. Video (not words) are preferred. Hold the arrogance in check and dig deep to share the passion. Methodically organize the tons of factual information and make it available if we want it. But, really make it easy to connect with the top shelf information without hours and hours of digging. And, I am sure you are telling us more we have to do just as you did in your very introspective post, Paul.

I can tell you that much of the above changes are in motion. Suzette Ayotte (of Fizik fame) has joined our team of adventurers and is driving this branding project. Paul, the changes you saw on our website were implemented over the last few months without Suzette's talent. Now that she is here and contributing, I think you will see more even faster.

Lastly, let me offer an apology if I come across as a bit "in your face" sometimes. It is not meant to be negative nor arrogant! But, here is why I occasionally do it: because I feel that Serotta's voice has been silent for too long and as such, the brand gave ownership of its message to others outside the company who spoke with a loud voice. In rsponding to online threads now and then, I have simply wanted the cycling communities to know there is someone with passion, experience and talent in charge here, that there is a well-thought out plan in place that is slowly being put into motion and that there is a crystal clear definition to the Serotta brand that we think is worthwhile and worthy of building a business around.

I try to carefully pick and choose the opportunity to respond with my Serotta CEO hat on; I don't want to use this forum as a Serotta mouthpiece. Within this thread, I may not have been correct but I heard what I thought was the previously typical overgeneralization that our prices are "stratospheric" and "not connected to reality." In the future, if the cycling community googles "Serotta" and sees several "too high price" threads, then I simply want those same Googlistas to find me presenting a reasonable, from-the-company counterpoint in an equally loud voice.

You are correct that I should not be taking time for this. You are correct if you say it seems petty. But, I am in the midst of overcoming lots and lots of extended negative brand momentum; I won't allow us to fall farther while I execute on our longer-term plan. As we do what I think we can do, we won't need to justify ourselves in print like this; I see what I am doing as a bit of a stop-gap measure….until more of our plan is under our feet and visible to the community.

Thanks again for the challenges, the engagement and your comments. I find them valuable and as such, am listening.

[buddybikes]

>>>>I think people ready to spend $6k+ on a f/f could still use a basic primer that a bike rides the way it does because of material, tubing (manipulation/shape/butting), assembly/joiniery. as well as the geometry.



..sorry I don't understand this point. Just because they don't put all the technical details on their website doesn't mean they don't treat it as important. I have built few frames, did my research with others more than just staring at the beauty of a f/f.

[Len J]

Thanks to all of you who have been weighing in with your thoughts but a real call out to 1centaur and Paul.

Both of you don't know it but you are confirming the tactical directions we are planning to use to take the brand into its future.

You are right that it makes little sense and has tiny impact for me (us) to put down into a bunch of words what we think you will want to know about Serotta and its differences to other brands. In the past, while we may have meant well, much of our ramblings were viewed as non-sensical, blustery and arrogant. Passionate we were but effective we were not.

We think you want the details of the "Serotta Difference" more clearly laid out and more readily available. Facts (not hype) are required. Video (not words) are preferred. Hold the arrogance in check and dig deep to share the passion. Methodically organize the tons of factual information and make it available if we want it. But, really make it easy to connect with the top shelf information without hours and hours of digging. And, I am sure you are telling us more we have to do just as you did in your very introspective post, Paul.

I can tell you that much of the above changes are in motion. Suzette Ayotte (of Fizik fame) has joined our team of adventurers and is driving this branding project. Paul, the changes you saw on our website were implemented over the last few months without Suzette's talent. Now that she is here and contributing, I think you will see more even faster.

Lastly, let me offer an apology if I come across as a bit "in your face" sometimes. It is not meant to be negative nor arrogant! But, here is why I occasionally do it: because I feel that Serotta's voice has been silent for too long and as such, the brand gave ownership of its message to others outside the company who spoke with a loud voice. In rsponding to online threads now and then, I have simply wanted the cycling communities to know there is someone with passion, experience and talent in charge here, that there is a well-thought out plan in place that is slowly being put into motion and that there is a crystal clear definition to the Serotta brand that we think is worthwhile and worthy of building a business around.

I try to carefully pick and choose the opportunity to respond with my Serotta CEO hat on; I don't want to use this forum as a Serotta mouthpiece. Within this thread, I may not have been correct but I heard what I thought was the previously typical overgeneralization that our prices are "stratospheric" and "not connected to reality." In the future, if the cycling community googles "Serotta" and sees several "too high price" threads, then I simply want those same Googlistas to find me presenting a reasonable, from-the-company counterpoint in an equally loud voice.

You are correct that I should not be taking time for this. You are correct if you say it seems petty. But, I am in the midst of overcoming lots and lots of extended negative brand momentum; I won't allow us to fall farther while I execute on our longer-term plan. As we do what I think we can do, we won't need to justify ourselves in print like this; I see what I am doing as a bit of a stop-gap measure….until more of our plan is under our feet and visible to the community.

Thanks again for the challenges, the engagement and your comments. I find them valuable and as such, am listening.

Waiting patiently to see how this all rolls out.

Price point justification....especially as you go up the line, is as important as ever.

Len

[maunahaole]

Bill, it seems like Serotta is on the right track. From Tom Officer's bike as the cover model and your (so far) open relationship and willingness to have a dialog with the sometimes unfriendly internet community, you are at the very least putting forth the image that the future in in good hands in Saratoga.

[pdmtong]

>>>>I think people ready to spend $6k+ on a f/f could still use a basic primer that a bike rides the way it does because of material, tubing (manipulation/shape/butting), assembly/joiniery. as well as the geometry.



..sorry I don't understand this point. Just because they don't put all the technical details on their website doesn't mean they don't treat it as important. I have built few frames, did my research with others more than just staring at the beauty of a f/f.

The website need not be a compendium of every minute detail, but without a dealer everywhere or the constant media coverage the big box companies get, the basic tenants of differentiation should at least be outlined. details might be on the web, might be through the dealer, but I think this is a situation in which vendor needs to lead customer, not customer discover on their own.

[buddybikes]

re: firefly probably only about 150 or less frames a year, is it worth the work to do this extra web stuff? Certainly if their demand goes down perhaps but they are busy on their backlog now. Yes they get blogged and flickr'd because that is a hobby of tyler, photography...

[bluesea]

They do, or will, very shortly. $3295, frame and S5 fork.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=130679


Ahh, standard geo headtube is too long.

[Nooch]

Ahh, standard geo headtube is too long.

are you judging by the pictures, or are you looking at the SG geometry -- these do not follow any standard serotta geo -- the pronto is a specific geometry.

It's a 59 cm frame, the HT is 177mm between the cups.... hardly a flag pole..

for comparison, a frame this size in a standard SG geo would have a 188mm HT.

[pdmtong]

Ahh, standard geo headtube is too long.

Looking at the std SG chart a 15.5 ht for 56tt is pretty common 13.5 is more race geo but 15.5 certainly is nowhere near jacked up like a trek H3 fit

[pdmtong]

re: firefly probably only about 150 or less frames a year, is it worth the work to do this extra web stuff? Certainly if their demand goes down perhaps but they are busy on their backlog now. Yes they get blogged and flickr'd because that is a hobby of tyler, photography...

A better web presence is one step in making the brand aspirational again. mind share is needed to grab the revenue required to feed 6-7x the number of employees that firefly has

[bluesea]

I don't see the Pronto (with horizontal tt) listed. Here's the Fondo geo. No biggie, their ht geo should fit most riders well.

http://serotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/130506-Fondo-SG-Sizes.pdf

[Nooch]

I don't see the Pronto (with horizontal tt) listed. Here's the Fondo geo. No biggie, their ht geo should fit most riders well.

http://serotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/130506-Fondo-SG-Sizes.pdf

i dont think its available for public consumption just yet, so I'm not going to post it here -- but it's very, VERY different than the Fondo, for damn sure.. the fondo is a relaxed geo bike.

The pronto is a race bike. Pure Bred. the geo won't disappoint, I promise.

[1centaur]

Serotta's lucky to have such a passionate CEO to start the drumbeat and keep it going.

I believe most high end bikes are bought on very simple decision points, which is ironic since such complicated factors go into making them. Why buy a Dogma over a MeiVici? Italian flare in paint and tube shapes and they win big races (and well reviewed). Why buy a Tarmac over a MeiVici? Light and stiff, cool comparison graphs vs. other frames, and lots of people win races on them (and well reviewed). Why buy a Parlee or a Crumpton over a Meivici? Everybody who has a Parlee or a Crumpton seems to love it and they have fanatic attention to detail, and they cost less (and are well reviewed). Or maybe like me they don't love the crouched German Shepherd rear legs on a MeiVici. All that effort and sweat and decision making on all those frames, and the decision comes down to something simple and emotionally comforting (with price definitely one of those comfort points for many people).

I watched that making a Serotta video a year or so ago and was highly impressed by the care, thought and emotion that Serotta put in every frame. I was left with no doubt whatsoever that Serotta puts a ton of quality and thought into every frame, probably more so than almost all peers. But I did not know if the quality really counted, did not have that simple belief that would have made for a simple emotional decision (had I been in the market and liked the rear end look). Plus I had two negatives to deal with - weight (a topic Serotta has long tried to dodge because "it's not important"), and price. All the competitors are lighter and cheaper and some of them are really well made so...

And that's why the need to link the quality message to the testimonials. If buyers think there is something Serotta puts into the riding impressions that they may be giving up by going elsewhere, price and weight (within "reason") start to seem less important. Suddenly, it's magic that is being sought, and that flows down to the lower price point frames. The right turn of phrase from the right person at the right time can be powerful. Suddenly Dogmas and Tarmacs are pedestrian tools that can't be painted without violating warranty, and Crumptons and Parlees are niche products, and Serotta's the only product that has it all thanks to greater emotional comfort on the website, a full and cohesive message, 80 extra grams for so much extra quality. Perhaps even a "look what we give you for the weight of 2 Clif bars" page.

I look forward to the drumbeat.

[Tyler Evans]

mind share is needed to grab the revenue required to feed 6-7x the number of employees that firefly has

Thanks. *wink...

[Len J]

Serotta's lucky to have such a passionate CEO to start the drumbeat and keep it going.

I believe most high end bikes are bought on very simple decision points, which is ironic since such complicated factors go into making them. Why buy a Dogma over a MeiVici? Italian flare in paint and tube shapes and they win big races (and well reviewed). Why buy a Tarmac over a MeiVici? Light and stiff, cool comparison graphs vs. other frames, and lots of people win races on them (and well reviewed). Why buy a Parlee or a Crumpton over a Meivici? Everybody who has a Parlee or a Crumpton seems to love it and they have fanatic attention to detail, and they cost less (and are well reviewed). Or maybe like me they don't love the crouched German Shepherd rear legs on a MeiVici. All that effort and sweat and decision making on all those frames, and the decision comes down to something simple and emotionally comforting (with price definitely one of those comfort points for many people).

I watched that making a Serotta video a year or so ago and was highly impressed by the care, thought and emotion that Serotta put in every frame. I was left with no doubt whatsoever that Serotta puts a ton of quality and thought into every frame, probably more so than almost all peers. But I did not know if the quality really counted, did not have that simple belief that would have made for a simple emotional decision (had I been in the market and liked the rear end look). Plus I had two negatives to deal with - weight (a topic Serotta has long tried to dodge because "it's not important"), and price. All the competitors are lighter and cheaper and some of them are really well made so...

And that's why the need to link the quality message to the testimonials. If buyers think there is something Serotta puts into the riding impressions that they may be giving up by going elsewhere, price and weight (within "reason") start to seem less important. Suddenly, it's magic that is being sought, and that flows down to the lower price point frames. The right turn of phrase from the right person at the right time can be powerful. Suddenly Dogmas and Tarmacs are pedestrian tools that can't be painted without violating warranty, and Crumptons and Parlees are niche products, and Serotta's the only product that has it all thanks to greater emotional comfort on the website, a full and cohesive message, 80 extra grams for so much extra quality. Perhaps even a "look what we give you for the weight of 2 Clif bars" page.

I look forward to the drumbeat.

Marketing luxury items (especially to men) is about providing rational reasons for an emotional decision.

Len

[pdmtong]

Thanks. *wink...

Presumably the business plans and market approach for FireFly and Serotta are necessarily different due to differing economics and focus. The competition isnt really against each other so much as it is against a default purchase from a more widely known mass-produced or boutique carbon mfg. It's a competition for luxury expenditure.

You three have a good thing going and are producing some beautiful machines. Finally seen a few here out west and they are as beautiful as in the pics.

In life or business, as long as income exceeds cost, things are ok. Serotta is doing what it needs to in order to raise unit volume - adjust price, and invigorate marketing to drive demand. I think what Bill is doing is on the right track. People need to eat...and hopefully they can eat well.

[54ny77]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCiGusVYOgY

Marketing luxury items (especially to men) is about providing rational reasons for an emotional decision.

Len

[christian]

Looking at the std SG chart a 15.5 ht for 56tt is pretty common2mm shorter than a Colnago C50...

[pbarry]

RL, court Davis Phinney to do some promotional spots. He's part of the Serotta legacy, would lend credibility to the new line, and reach a target demographic.
Ron Kiefel, Alexi Grewal, and others should be pursued as well. Back to the Future and all the rest.. You are headed in the right direction!

[jblande]

Or maybe like me they don't love the crouched German Shepherd rear legs on a MeiVici. All that effort and sweat and decision making on all those frames, and the decision comes down to something simple and emotionally comforting (with price definitely one of those comfort points for many people).

I would wonder whether it was really about the 'rear legs' or whether you were predisposed to find some flaw by other 'environmental' factors -- communication, web presence, stated philosophy, advertising, etc.

Ever seen a Pinarello Dogma as a bare frame? Then seen it once it says Pinarello on it? It seems to me they have crafted an image such that once the brand name is present on that frame, odd becomes sexy. The opposite is also true, and Serotta has done a lot to make their brand not work for many.

[bluesea]

i dont think its available for public consumption just yet, so I'm not going to post it here -- but it's very, VERY different than the Fondo, for damn sure.. the fondo is a relaxed geo bike.

The pronto is a race bike. Pure Bred. the geo won't disappoint, I promise.



Schwing! I'm liking what I'm hearing.

[pbarry]

I would wonder whether it was really about the 'rear legs' or whether you were predisposed to find some flaw by other 'environmental' factors -- communication, web presence, stated philosophy, advertising, etc.

Ever seen a Pinarello Dogma as a bare frame? Then seen it once it says Pinarello on it? It seems to me they have crafted an image such that once the brand name is present on that frame, odd becomes sexy. The opposite is also true, and Serotta has done a lot to make their brand not work for many.

The curved seat stay assembly trend has come and gone already. Makes the Meivici look dated, despite performance enhancement. Go for the narrow seat stays like your competitors, or an updated monostay that shows innovation.

[e-RICHIE]

I don't think Bill has to court anyone, or even explain himself or the brand. He (Bill) was the face of Serotta for a long time before 7-Eleven even knew what bicycle racing was. Bill alone put Serotta frames into the public psyche dot period. I am sure - well, I wouldn't be surprised if - he deflects it all, summons up some humility, or says, yeah - but that was a long time ago. Regardless, his finger is on the pulse. He's committed. And it won't happen overnight. In other words, it won't turnaround fast enough to silence detractors. He gave a great presentation at Ballers. There, he had a focus group that money couldn't buy atmo. He has public support. And his goals seem reasonable. The brand and its market are so much bigger than a single message board community's reach. From what I got from Bill's speech, it (the brand) will soon erase its recent past and start making and designing frames to its specs rather than to those collaborated upon with others. That's how the brand was built. And how it operated in its halcyon days. And those are the times so many wish they'd return to. I expect it will.

[pbarry]

Gracious and well deserved comments from one who knows branding and the business. :)

[rounder]

I got inspired after watching the 1989 tour de trump and tdf. I was riding a bianchi at the time which I liked. A couple of years later wanted something better. I liked both eddy merckx and serotta. E. Merckx had the history, but loved serrota and went with that. Never looked back. Hope that Ben et al do great.

[pbarry]

I got inspired after watching the 1989 tour de trump and tdf. I was riding a bianchi at the time which I liked. A couple of years later wanted something better. I liked both eddy merckx and serotta. E. Merckx had the history, but loved serrota and went with that. Never looked back. Hope that Ben et al do great.

Yes. there's a way to bring the brand history in racing around to the present, without sponsoring a TDF team. Not sure how that's done, but that history has value.

[Elefantino]

i don't think bill has to court anyone, or even explain himself or the brand. He (bill) was the face of serotta for a long time before 7-eleven even knew what bicycle racing was. Bill alone put serotta frames into the public psyche dot period. I am sure - well, i wouldn't be surprised if - he deflects it all, summons up some humility, or says, yeah - but that was a long time ago. Regardless, his finger is on the pulse. He's committed. And it won't happen overnight. In other words, it won't turnaround fast enough to silence detractors. He gave a great presentation at ballers. There, he had a focus group that money couldn't buy atmo. He has public support. And his goals seem reasonable. The brand and its market are so much bigger than a single message board community's reach. From what i got from bill's speech, it (the brand) will soon erase its recent past and start making and designing frames to its specs rather than to those collaborated upon with others. That's how the brand was built. And how it operated in its halcyon days. And those are the times so many wish they'd return to. I expect it will.
+1

[Smiley]

somebody mentioned dusting off Davis Phinney and Ron Keifel and others....well as of late I have been doing many bike fittings for Tri Athletes and guess what they have NO clue as 20 somethings who these guys are. Basically those old guys are only relevant to us 50 somethings. My point is there is a whole new generation of riders today that don't have an attachment to the past. Some of these new Time Trial machines I see come throgh my studio are so tricked out and expensive I wonder if the road bike manufactures have missed the Tri market, I am not talking about Cervelo, Specialized and Trek cause they get it. Somebody is making a whole pile of cash selling TT bikes cause this is a HUGE market place which is attracting younger males and females to the sport of cycling but through another back channel. The small custom guys can't make anything close to what a Shiv looks like and yes looks and weight and internal water bladders sell bikes.

Designing a custom Tri bike for a client that gets the fact that he wants custom is willing to pay for a machine that fits with tradional round tubes :)

Greg Lemond who?

[oldpotatoe]

Presumably the business plans and market approach for FireFly and Serotta are necessarily different due to differing economics and focus. The competition isnt really against each other so much as it is against a default purchase from a more widely known mass-produced or boutique carbon mfg. It's a competition for luxury expenditure.

You three have a good thing going and are producing some beautiful machines. Finally seen a few here out west and they are as beautiful as in the pics.

In life or business, as long as income exceeds cost, things are ok. Serotta is doing what it needs to in order to raise unit volume - adjust price, and invigorate marketing to drive demand. I think what Bill is doing is on the right track. People need to eat...and hopefully they can eat well.

Apples and oranges, IMHO. Small builder(150 frames?) going consumer direct(bigger margin to the builder) vs a attempting to be, bigger builder via a dealer network.

Like selling at a discount, volume has to be there to be able to proceed with a dealer network since margin is decreased by selling to the dealer before the rider.

Mid level builders in bike shops vs small teeny builders selling off a web site vs asian, mass producers, in great bike bike shops/stores(trekspecializedgiant-etc.). I think it's a mistake to compare the three outside their own 'niche' and a mistake to think getting 'great big' is some answer or another. I think it's a mistake to think as a builder, the 'other side of the street' is necessarily the 'way to go'. I think some builders, like IF, Lynskey, Moots and others, are pretty happy where they are and others, like Mosaic, Firefly, Soulcraft, other small builders, are too.

I have talked to the Mosaic guys and Sean at Soulcraft and they are pretty happy at the scale they are at now.

[rustylion]

Sometimes, I just respond to things I agree with by simply saying "what he said."

You are on target, I agree and we are "working on it." All I can say is please stay tuned.

Thanks.

Serotta's lucky to have such a passionate CEO to start the drumbeat and keep it going.

I believe most high end bikes are bought on very simple decision points, which is ironic since such complicated factors go into making them. Why buy a Dogma over a MeiVici? Italian flare in paint and tube shapes and they win big races (and well reviewed). Why buy a Tarmac over a MeiVici? Light and stiff, cool comparison graphs vs. other frames, and lots of people win races on them (and well reviewed). Why buy a Parlee or a Crumpton over a Meivici? Everybody who has a Parlee or a Crumpton seems to love it and they have fanatic attention to detail, and they cost less (and are well reviewed). Or maybe like me they don't love the crouched German Shepherd rear legs on a MeiVici. All that effort and sweat and decision making on all those frames, and the decision comes down to something simple and emotionally comforting (with price definitely one of those comfort points for many people).

I watched that making a Serotta video a year or so ago and was highly impressed by the care, thought and emotion that Serotta put in every frame. I was left with no doubt whatsoever that Serotta puts a ton of quality and thought into every frame, probably more so than almost all peers. But I did not know if the quality really counted, did not have that simple belief that would have made for a simple emotional decision (had I been in the market and liked the rear end look). Plus I had two negatives to deal with - weight (a topic Serotta has long tried to dodge because "it's not important"), and price. All the competitors are lighter and cheaper and some of them are really well made so...

And that's why the need to link the quality message to the testimonials. If buyers think there is something Serotta puts into the riding impressions that they may be giving up by going elsewhere, price and weight (within "reason") start to seem less important. Suddenly, it's magic that is being sought, and that flows down to the lower price point frames. The right turn of phrase from the right person at the right time can be powerful. Suddenly Dogmas and Tarmacs are pedestrian tools that can't be painted without violating warranty, and Crumptons and Parlees are niche products, and Serotta's the only product that has it all thanks to greater emotional comfort on the website, a full and cohesive message, 80 extra grams for so much extra quality. Perhaps even a "look what we give you for the weight of 2 Clif bars" page.

I look forward to the drumbeat.

[zap]

I don't think Bill has to court anyone, or even explain himself or the brand. He (Bill) was the face of Serotta for a long time before 7-Eleven even knew what bicycle racing was. Bill alone put Serotta frames into the public psyche dot period. I am sure - well, I wouldn't be surprised if - he deflects it all, summons up some humility, or says, yeah - but that was a long time ago. Regardless, his finger is on the pulse. He's committed. And it won't happen overnight. In other words, it won't turnaround fast enough to silence detractors. He gave a great presentation at Ballers. There, he had a focus group that money couldn't buy atmo. He has public support. And his goals seem reasonable. The brand and its market are so much bigger than a single message board community's reach. From what I got from Bill's speech, it (the brand) will soon erase its recent past and start making and designing frames to its specs rather than to those collaborated upon with others. That's how the brand was built. And how it operated in its halcyon days. And those are the times so many wish they'd return to. I expect it will.

I suspect it will take time as the horse left the barn many moons ago.

The squeaks from Serotta sound promising and I suspect Bill and his team will continue to raise the sound level.

[pdmtong]

Apples and oranges, IMHO. Small builder(150 frames?) going consumer direct(bigger margin to the builder) vs a attempting to be, bigger builder via a dealer network.

Like selling at a discount, volume has to be there to be able to proceed with a dealer network since margin is decreased by selling to the dealer before the rider.

Mid level builders in bike shops vs small teeny builders selling off a web site vs asian, mass producers, in great bike bike shops/stores(trekspecializedgiant-etc.). I think it's a mistake to compare the three outside their own 'niche' and a mistake to think getting 'great big' is some answer or another. I think it's a mistake to think as a builder, the 'other side of the street' is necessarily the 'way to go'. I think some builders, like IF, Lynskey, Moots and others, are pretty happy where they are and others, like Mosaic, Firefly, Soulcraft, other small builders, are too.

I have talked to the Mosaic guys and Sean at Soulcraft and they are pretty happy at the scale they are at now.

Peter yes exactly. I couldn't agree more here. 150 bikes is a very different situation than a company that needs to be doing moots-like (or more) volume

I base that strictly on covering employee headcount.

OT its interesting to see how various builders choose to scale (or not) and how that path gets implemented in mtg distribution and product.

[pdmtong]

Serotta's lucky to have such a passionate CEO to start the drumbeat and keep it going.

I believe most high end bikes are bought on very simple decision points, which is ironic since such complicated factors go into making them. Why buy a Dogma over a MeiVici? Italian flare in paint and tube shapes and they win big races (and well reviewed). Why buy a Tarmac over a MeiVici? Light and stiff, cool comparison graphs vs. other frames, and lots of people win races on them (and well reviewed). Why buy a Parlee or a Crumpton over a Meivici? Everybody who has a Parlee or a Crumpton seems to love it and they have fanatic attention to detail, and they cost less (and are well reviewed). Or maybe like me they don't love the crouched German Shepherd rear legs on a MeiVici. All that effort and sweat and decision making on all those frames, and the decision comes down to something simple and emotionally comforting (with price definitely one of those comfort points for many people).

I watched that making a Serotta video a year or so ago and was highly impressed by the care, thought and emotion that Serotta put in every frame. I was left with no doubt whatsoever that Serotta puts a ton of quality and thought into every frame, probably more so than almost all peers. But I did not know if the quality really counted, did not have that simple belief that would have made for a simple emotional decision (had I been in the market and liked the rear end look). Plus I had two negatives to deal with - weight (a topic Serotta has long tried to dodge because "it's not important"), and price. All the competitors are lighter and cheaper and some of them are really well made so...

And that's why the need to link the quality message to the testimonials. If buyers think there is something Serotta puts into the riding impressions that they may be giving up by going elsewhere, price and weight (within "reason") start to seem less important. Suddenly, it's magic that is being sought, and that flows down to the lower price point frames. The right turn of phrase from the right person at the right time can be powerful. Suddenly Dogmas and Tarmacs are pedestrian tools that can't be painted without violating warranty, and Crumptons and Parlees are niche products, and Serotta's the only product that has it all thanks to greater emotional comfort on the website, a full and cohesive message, 80 extra grams for so much extra quality. Perhaps even a "look what we give you for the weight of 2 Clif bars" page. I look forward to the drumbeat.

I've been thinking about this further and hopefully it will be useful to share my comments with 1centaurs insights as a backdrop. His take resonates with me as well

First, I am NOT in the camp that Serotta needs to JUSTIFY their pricing nor am I in the camp that Serotta needs to PROVE this or that versus their competitors. Maybe some folks feel that justification or proof is needed simply because Serotta was in a hole. I felt like they could always make a great bike but the failing was in connecting that capability to buyers.
Putting out information that amounts to a multi-column menu of our features versus their features is a defensive position that lets the competitor dictate the playing field. Not good.

I'd prefer to determine what Serotta feels are the 80% in common marketing attributes their competitors talk about, then make sure those attributes are discussed from a Serotta perspective. As a buyer, that lets me know that when I compare brands, most of what I am looking for is covered and I don't feel there is a deficiency in choosing Serotta. Note that I said most. This isn't a bake-off in which EVERY line item has to match - most is good enough as long as they are the key ones.

Now focus on differentiating instead of justifying. Be on the offense not play defense. Pick the things that either Serotta does exceptionally well or are unique to Serotta or what is considered the "secret sauce". This is where prospects will start to rationalize the price premium over SG or price difference versus other brands, and cement in their minds what make Serotta a great choice.

Articulate the differences simply. Blend tech talk with practical implications. do not go overboard here. no one has time or wants to read a diatribe/white paper. People are looking to confirm what they think are check box items and while you've captured the conversation with them, now is the time to help them discover the serotta magic.

No one is banging on Tyler to prove his tube set choices or mfg excellence.
Somehow people got past that bob parlee used to build boats before bikes and is now credible. These are just tow examples that illustrate NOT to get too hung up on the the minutia. Paint with a broader brush with the end goal being the aura you want Serotta to have.

Pump up everything that makes the company what it is. Safety awards, green, community involvement. People buy the product, but they also buy the people, what the company stands for, the heritage. This goes to the brand aura, on top of the product excellence.

Now lastly the emotion / magic that 1centaur mentions. Or, in my view, the aspiration. You've by now proven to me that serotta is a good choice, perhaps a great choice. what makes me want to open my wallet? This is harder....is it the glowing review in velonews or cycling news? is it the bike that took xyz to victory in the abc race? is it the constant drumbeat across various channels there is a difference?

Keep invigorating the message across as many channels as possible, and through as many other voices as possible. Get the features and facts recorded, create the aspiration/magic/emotion through testimonials, reviews, photography, presence, and let buyers pull the thread from one to the other.

A simple black and white ad of the pronto going full bore captioned with "Serotta 2013. Like nothing you have seen before."

There are a set of folks who wouldn't give a rats a$$ about Serotta but are now sitting up thanks to Richards comments in post #65. My LBS raffled a Moots frameset at a "Moots night" event recently. The winner jumped up and exclaimed "anyone want to buy a serotta?". And then the voice in the crowd yells out "you couldn't give that frame away". Ouch.

As for the detractors ("the squeaks from Serotta sound promising") I'd say we are well past the squeaks. The comeback has started and the gas pedal is floored.

Thanks for listening.

PS...forgive me here but the weight thing. yea, I know, weight doesn't matter. so if that's the case, why are the only people saying that the chubby ones? I think if the top end bikes can be in the high 16's with pedestrian builds that would be close enough.