Should I change from Kyserium SL wheels

[goblue]

to 38 mm carbon fiber wheels such as DT Swiss? I'm 5'11" 185#, 55 yrs old and want to improve my climbing ability (yes I know training is key). I ride a Serotta Legend SE. You thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

[rice rocket]

I didn't like my Ksyrium SLs, but mostly because of how bad the wide spokes were in the wind. I find anything (even 90mm deep wheels) more tolerable.

[AngryScientist]

No. Light is more important than aero by a lot for climbing

[goblue]

*

[cmg]

the weight at the rim and on the rim is the important thing for a set of climbing wheels. When looking a wheel weights the manufactuer rarely mentions rim weight. the Kyserium SL are above 460gs (weight weenies) so if the carbon rims are under 400 you'll feel a difference. if going to clinchers use 180gs for a rear tire and 150 g for the front tire with 55g innder tubes. better to have a lot of spokes/more than 24 than look cool. 24 spoked wheels need beefier rims.

[regularguy412]

I had a set of Ksyriums and now have a set of Easton EC90SLs in 38mm. Worlds of difference. As others have stated, it's the weight at the rim that makes much of the difference. Additionally, I, too, found that the Eastons were much less susceptible to side winds compared to the K's.

However, I will say that the K's were nearly 'bomb-proof' (yeah, that thread again).

MIke in AR:beer:

[Ardan MacNessa]

to 38 mm carbon fiber wheels such as DT Swiss? I'm 5'11" 185#, 55 yrs old and want to improve my climbing ability (yes I know training is key). I ride a Serotta Legend SE. You thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!
I'm roughly a few years younger, an inch taller and about the same weight. I ran a set of Ksyrium Elites which came equipped on my Cannondale SuperSix. I rode them half a dozen times in February with gusty winds in the mountains. I was blown all over the roadways. I finally sold them for $400 and bought a real nice set of heavier rims DT Swiss. What improved my climbing was being constantly under the gun to get to work on time commuting with the bicycle mornings and an 8 kilo knapsack on my back. What sharpened everything up was riding with guys weekends who would push you till blue in the face. Over all, it's your breathing going uphill at 10mph not so much the wind resistance or 200 gram lighter wheels. You just get quicker with guys who ride faster. You're already riding a very light bike and wheel set. Chase those fast rabbits is the key and enjoy the pain takes the gain.

[1centaur]

CF wheels won't help you climb better but might be a negative trade-off coming down things that are steep and long. Make sure you have a brake track that reviews "as good as aluminum" since you want neither heat build up nor wet braking lag if you can help it.

If you have not felt the wind effect others have mentioned, and don't mind the rigid ride of K's, then I would not switch. If you want more comfort and less wind effect, a light high quality handbuilt or a Shimano C24 might be enjoyable.

[Mark McM]

the weight at the rim and on the rim is the important thing for a set of climbing wheels. When looking a wheel weights the manufactuer rarely mentions rim weight. the Kyserium SL are above 460gs (weight weenies) so if the carbon rims are under 400 you'll feel a difference. if going to clinchers use 180gs for a rear tire and 150 g for the front tire with 55g innder tubes. better to have a lot of spokes/more than 24 than look cool. 24 spoked wheels need beefier rims.

Haven't we been over this before? Many, many times? For steady state climbing, only total weight matters, not whether it is rotating or not.

Even Lennard Zinn addressed this in a technical article in Velonews (http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/06/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-does-wheel-weight-matter_223209)last year:

There is no question that if a rider climbs at constant speed, it doesn’t matter where the weight is located on the bike. Extra mass could be concentrated on the pedals, at the rims, in the frame, or in the hubs, and as long as the bike’s total weight is the same and it has otherwise the same characteristics, it will create the same resistance to the rider’s efforts.

[Ardan MacNessa]

Haven't we been over this before? Many, many times? For steady state climbing, only total weight matters, not whether it is rotating or not.

Even Lennard Zinn addressed this in a technical article in Velonews (http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/06/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-does-wheel-weight-matter_223209)last year:


^^^Well worth the read. Thanks Mark McM

[Mikej]

Yes then you will know

[pdmtong]

Forget the wheels. assuming your K's are in the 1500g range that is not the problem.

Getting bling 1300g wheels is not going to shave big time off your climbing unless you are already strong.

the only way to get better at climbing is to do it more, and push yourself more when you do it.

last year I rode a lot more than previous years and was going up hills in 1-2 cogs higher. same bike. the change was me.

[zott28]

It always comes down to belly weight vs bike weight. I could spend $500 to drop 1 pound off my bike or I can save $ and drop 15 pounds off my belly.:)

[pdmtong]

It always comes down to belly weight vs bike weight. I could spend $500 to drop 1 pound off my bike or I can save $ and drop 15 pounds off my belly.:)

While I agree with this even if you drop belly weight the way to get stronger up hill is to ride more uphill. Buying new gear isnt the answer if the current gear is is current

[T.J.]

While I agree with this even if you drop belly weight the way to get stronger up hill is to ride more uphill. Buying new gear isnt the answer if the current gear is is current

This ^^. If you wanna buy blingy bike bits then by all means have at it , you need know reason other than you wanna.
Now, if you are chasing a magic bullet that will make you a better climber then no. If you are serious enough to drop that coin on carbon hoops then drop it on a coach instead. Just my two cents

[texbike]

While I agree with this even if you drop belly weight the way to get stronger up hill is to ride more uphill. Buying new gear isnt the answer if the current gear is is current

What's the saying? Ride up grades; don't buy upgrades?

Texbike

[bennie222]

I think I prefer the Ksyrium Elite's now.. too many friends with squeaky SL's or broken spokes, and now you can't even get some of the spokes.

[oldpotatoe]

to 38 mm carbon fiber wheels such as DT Swiss? I'm 5'11" 185#, 55 yrs old and want to improve my climbing ability (yes I know training is key). I ride a Serotta Legend SE. You thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

See previous post above.

My biggest issue with anything Mavic and wheels is their crummy, cheap, lotsa service required, rear hub. Plastic bushing, 2 pawl, drys out, squeals, draggy..it's not as if they couldn't make a better designed rear hub. This one has had these issues for over a decade. A $1500++ wheelset deserves a better rear hub..so yes, get rid of those things and use a wheelset with a better rear hub, like ANY rear wheel.

'Newer' seal and red bits on the pawls does NOT fix their crappy design, in spite of a few pictures. They do have a 3 pawl design now on some of their MTB wheels...but as has been mentioned, the french can be stubborn..so don't expect this hub design on road wheels anytime soon. Gotta go thru the warehouse with the zillions of crappy FH bodies first...

BUT don't expect 38mm carbon fiber wheels to make any difference in your 'climbing ability'...

[oldpotatoe]

the weight at the rim and on the rim is the important thing for a set of climbing wheels. When looking a wheel weights the manufactuer rarely mentions rim weight. the Kyserium SL are above 460gs (weight weenies) so if the carbon rims are under 400 you'll feel a difference. if going to clinchers use 180gs for a rear tire and 150 g for the front tire with 55g innder tubes. better to have a lot of spokes/more than 24 than look cool. 24 spoked wheels need beefier rims.

righto-a study I read said that doubling the rim weight meant effort required to spin the wheel up to a certain speed increased by .1 of 1%...so 60 grams on a rim, for a rider and bike 'package' of 85,000 + grams won't be felt, IMHO. Stiffness of rear wheels, like deepish carbon wheels, probably will be 'felt.

Thanks Mark and Lennard, "Even Lennard Zinn addressed this in a technical article in Velonews last year:

Quote:
There is no question that if a rider climbs at constant speed, it doesn’t matter where the weight is located on the bike. Extra mass could be concentrated on the pedals, at the rims, in the frame, or in the hubs, and as long as the bike’s total weight is the same and it has otherwise the same characteristics, it will create the same resistance to the rider’s efforts."

[shovelhd]

If you are serious enough to drop that coin on carbon hoops then drop it on a power meter instead. Just my two cents

fixed

[shinomaster]

See previous post above.

My biggest issue with anything Mavic and wheels is their crummy, cheap, lotsa service required, rear hub. Plastic bushing, 2 pawl, drys out, squeals, draggy..it's not as if they couldn't make a better designed rear hub. This one has had these issues for over a decade. A $1500++ wheelset deserves a better rear hub..so yes, get rid of those things and use a wheelset with a better rear hub, like ANY rear wheel.

BUT don't expect 38mm carbon fiber wheels to make any difference in your 'climbing ability'...

My Ksyrium Es wheels squeal, get loose so there is lateral play, and require more work than any of my campy wheels. I think they climb great however, and I like them. I think upgrading to lighter carbon wheels would be fun but ultimately something you would get used to. Then what?
After that upgrade one really needs to focus on the riders weight and training etc. I dropped my friend (he tried to drop me first) on one of the hardest climbs around with my heaviest wheelset (old silver shamals). I thought we were going for a pancake flat ride when we turned up a monster climb. I weigh less then he did, so really that's probably why I had an advantage.

[Likes2ridefar]

Assuming you aren't built like a tank, e.g. a football player, I recommend losing 20 to 30 pounds (or more)


That will make you a heck of a lot faster than any wheel change.

[fogrider]

ride what you have and ride it a lot. but also get the cf wheels and ride them on climbs and the long rides. train on durable equipment and don't worry about weight. you will notice a difference. cf tubies spin up fast and stand on them and you will feel the speed.

[aramis]

Get a heavy powertap wheel and you'll go faster. I got a 32 spoke heavy powertap rear wheel and it's been so helpful for training and pacing as well as helping me push harder.

[Peter B]

While I agree with this even if you drop belly weight the way to get stronger up hill is to ride more uphill. Buying new gear isnt the answer if the current gear is is current

Buying new gear improves your climbing by motivating you to climb more.:)

[oldpotatoe]

Assuming you aren't built like a tank, e.g. a football player, I recommend losing 20 to 30 pounds (or more)


That will make you a heck of a lot faster than any wheel change.

Remember a section in Lemond's early book..about when racing(or riding) becoming 'artifically light'..that is, losing body weight, which is something just about every recreational cyclist could do..like 5-10++ pounds..and then your bike becomes 5-10 or zero pounds...

reality, what a concept.

[blessthismess]

Remember a section in Lemond's early book..about when racing(or riding) becoming 'artifically light'..that is, losing body weight, which is something just about every recreational cyclist could do..like 5-10++ pounds..and then your bike becomes 5-10 or zero pounds...

reality, what a concept.

It is always nice to get new stuff and upgrade, and I agree with peter that new gear is good at motivating you to get out and use it. But the truth is its really up to the rider. Losing some body weight and/or training harder is really whats gonna get you up those climbs, or a good tail wind :)

[JEMM]

nothing beats proper training and nutrition. ksyriums are best wheels and bomb proof!

[oldpotatoe]

nothing beats proper training and nutrition. ksyriums are best wheels and bomb proof!

Your tag to the right says 'bike shop'..do you guys see these for service? Have you taken the rear hub apart?

'best' wheels? I disagree...one the poorest if not porrest hub designs on the market today...ok, ok, I'm out this thread is over for me.

[cmg]

a simple experiment, try a set of 240gram tires and thorn resistant inner tubes 100grams each. ride them for a week. then switch them out for a set of 180 gram tires with 55 gram inner tubes, see if you can feel the difference. while your overall performance probably won't change see which setup you prefer. no need to carry more weight than you need.

[HillDancer]

A look at the positives of the Mavic rear hub. The free-hub body is steel, which does not suffer gouging from single cassette sprockets. The angle of engagement is narrower than many three pawl hubs. The drive side axle bearing is further outboard more than 30mm from the typical near center location of most other hubs. The sealed bearings are very long lived (with correct pre-load). The "plastic" plain bearing often sighted as inferior can handle loads 100kg greater than a typical ball bearing, and is self lubricating; info here (http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/10/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-noisy-mavic-freehubs_101299). Servicing a Mavic rear hub is relatively simple, so maintaining free-hub and gear & pawl lubrication does not require much skill or special tools (5mm hex, 17mm cone wrench). The hub and cassette can be removed as a unit for service, most other hub types require the cassette to be removed from the free-hub to service the free-wheel mechanism.

The SL rear wheel has a reputation for squeal, which I don't have experience with, so I can't comment as to the cause.

Issues I do have experience with. Free-hub drag, note the inner seal in the image below is deformed. Early model inner seals can bind against the free-hub body if not installed flush, or allowed to go dry. The later model seal is slicker and holds lubrication longer. Nylon plain bearing wear, early model pawls are soft, as a result slivers can slough off, migrate to the contact surface between nylon bearing and hub body spindle, causing excessive wear and a bit of cassette/free-wheel wobble. The fix, during rear hub service replace the inner seal with the updated part, and the pawls with FTS-X versions. In the image below note the red nylon pawl carrier of the FTS-X pawls as apposed to the all-steel standard road pawls. If the free-hub assembly is cleaned and lubed (5W mineral oil) every few thousand miles, even the older model parts will retain good performance and lengthy service life.

The three pawl non-Mavic hub in the second image below illustrates how much further toward axle center the outboard load bearing axle bearing is located. Also, a typical light weight hub will have an aluminum axle. When securing the axle with an open end wrench, the hardened wrench flats will truncate the soft aluminum thread lands (third image), necessitating clean-up with a die.

No rear hub is maintenance free.

[Pete Mckeon]

I do not ride in rain much or wash with high pressure but they are "goto" wheels by me for many years. Yes the french are stubborn and have not moved forward with design but with proper maintenance the wheels have lasted me a long time and I recommend them to friends. THe dealer I go to in NJ has always recommended them. Yes they will sell you whatever ones put a smile on your face.

I am in the weight and age range you have and had not had a problem. The MAVIC SLRs work for me also.:) No I do not work for MAVIC and I have also had some custom build wheels which worked fine:cool: