Why I'm angry W/Armstrong/DiLica, etc.

[Lewis Moon]

I HATE the fact that I now suspect any great performance of being juiced.
http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/21/67/62/4684951/3/628x471.jpg

[Louis]

You can blame LA, Bruyneel, the US Postal, the secret behind-the-scenes funders, etc, etc, but the UCI, indeed, the entire system's, to blame, if one doesn't trust today's riders and today's test results.

If the testing were both effective and comprehensive (I don't know if that's scientifically possible or not) then we could trust the stars and their great performances.

In other words, IMO there's plenty of blame to go around.

Aside: Some guys also say you should blame the fans who support all this, those who watch the broadcasts and buy the products that are advertised, who demand longer, faster, and stronger performances, but I've never really bought that line of argument.

PS - That poor old dead horse - how much longer are we going to continue to beat it?

[chengher87]

You can blame LA, Bruyneel, the US Postal, the secret behind-the-scenes funders, etc, etc, but the UCI, indeed, the entire system's, to blame, if one doesn't trust today's riders and today's test results.

If the testing were both effective and comprehensive (I don't know if that's scientifically possible or not) then we could trust the stars and their great performances.

In other words, IMO there's plenty of blame to go around.

Aside: Some guys also say you should blame the fans who support all this, those who watch the broadcasts and buy the products that are advertised, who demand longer, faster, and stronger performances, but I've never really bought that line of argument.

PS - That poor old dead horse - how much longer are we going to continue to beat it?

Yep. They weren't the first and they sure as heck won't be the last. With all the hoopla about doping in cycling, the irony is that cycling is one of the cleaner sports (or at least, cleaning up). American football is now just starting to form a "baseline" for HGH testing (even though it has been established now for over a decade). Baseball?? Too easy. Soccer? See Operacion Puerto. Basketball? Didn't Kobe Bryant essentially dope (Or the term used, blood manipulation, not approved by FDA and had to get it done in Germany)? Plus, most of these sports test for cocaine, marijuana, etc. moreso than performance enhancers.

[Lewis Moon]

You can blame LA, Bruyneel, the US Postal, the secret behind-the-scenes funders, etc, etc, but the UCI, indeed, the entire system's, to blame, if one doesn't trust today's riders and today's test results.

If the testing were both effective and comprehensive (I don't know if that's scientifically possible or not) then we could trust the stars and their great performances.

In other words, IMO there's plenty of blame to go around.

Aside: Some guys also say you should blame the fans who support all this, those who watch the broadcasts and buy the products that are advertised, who demand longer, faster, and stronger performances, but I've never really bought that line of argument.

PS - That poor old dead horse - how much longer are we going to continue to beat it?

Indeed. Blaming Armstrong et al. for the state of cycling is like blaming the President for the cultural failings of the US.
As for the dead horse...LA, etc are the "face" of doping. To characterize doping as a dead horse is minimizing a major issue in sport, to say the least.

[slidey]

I'm in this category in that I think its inhumane to demand a gladiator-like race up an insanely steep mountain! I believe Fabian Cancellara tweeted towards the end of the stage today chastising this very practice, and I think as a first-class athlete he is trying to make the same point.

https://twitter.com/f_cancellara

Aside: Some guys also say you should blame the fans who support all this,...

[CunegoFan]

I'm in this category in that I think its inhumane to demand a gladiator-like race up an insanely steep mountain! I believe Fabian Cancellara tweeted towards the end of the stage today chastising this very practice, and I think as a first-class athlete he is trying to make the same point.

https://twitter.com/f_cancellara

This year's Tour of Flanders was held in sub-zero C temperatures. I did not hear Cancellara calling for the race to be cancelled.

[oldpotatoe]

This year's Tour of Flanders was held in sub-zero C temperatures. I did not hear Cancellara calling for the race to be cancelled.

He was better 'prepared' for that race.

[ultraman6970]

All the time an italian is wining the giro they made crap out to short the race so the italian would win, anybody remember many years ago when moser won? they shorted the race as well.

When hapmsten won the race he had to go with sub zero temps and basically with a road that was not even clean. The italian way you know.

[oldpotatoe]

All the time an italian is wining the giro they made crap out to short the race so the italian would win, anybody remember many years ago when moser won? they shorted the race as well.

When hapmsten won the race he had to go with sub zero temps and basically with a road that was not even clean. The italian way you know.

The French should try it...

What Cadel 'mechanical' was it? What happened? Di2 sputter out?

[Tandem Rider]

In other words, IMO there's plenty of blame to go around.


Louis is right,
Team Bosses, Doctors, Soigneurs, riders, teammates, cooks, mechanics, sponsors, race organizers, UCI, National Federations, racers on other teams, fans, media, etc. you get the idea. We all looked the other way at minimum. The doping era didn't start with LA, he was just really good at winning the arms race. I saw it (doping) in the 80's, I didn't drop a dime on anyone.

We are all partly to blame here, we need to stop comparing one era to another and start changing the culture bit by bit. Remember, that culture is pervasive in all sports though, not just cycling.

[ultraman6970]

They dont tell exactly what the problem was, I imagine he couldnt shift up maybe?? The sad part is that they dont tell what's the problem was.

Remember when the lighter gear we had as 42x18 and nobody complained.

[harlond]

Clean athletes produced great performances in sport before doping, no reason clean athletes couldn't now. Was Jesse Owens a doper?

I'm not saying Nibali is clean, I have no way of knowing. I'm just saying that a great performance in and of itself is no basis for suspicion. And finishing 17 seconds ahead of the second place finisher, as Nibali did yesterday, doesn't seem that unusual. In that context, it's a choice whether to be suspicious. There's plenty of time to be suspicious if he fails a test.

[firerescuefin]

You can blame LA, Bruyneel, the US Postal, the secret behind-the-scenes funders, etc, etc, but the UCI, indeed, the entire system's, to blame, if one doesn't trust today's riders and today's test results.

If the testing were both effective and comprehensive (I don't know if that's scientifically possible or not) then we could trust the stars and their great performances.

In other words, IMO there's plenty of blame to go around.

Aside: Some guys also say you should blame the fans who support all this, those who watch the broadcasts and buy the products that are advertised, who demand longer, faster, and stronger performances, but I've never really bought that line of argument.

PS - That poor old dead horse - how much longer are we going to continue to beat it?

Longest post of yours I've ever agreed with word for word :help:....must be riding season :)...well said.

[Ardan MacNessa]

If the testing were both effective and comprehensive (I don't know if that's scientifically possible or not) then we could trust the stars and their great performances.
That's the crux of the matter.

When you have time to read something interesting, this was our Médico-Sportive in the 80's and early 90's. Interesting perspectives on doping and the fatigue the sport sustains.

In French François Bellocq (http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/portraits/bellocq.htm)

In English François Bellocq (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cyclisme-dopage.com%2Fportraits%2Fbellocq.htm&act=url).

[MattTuck]

If you want to watch sport with zero chance of PEDs, I'd say your best bet is the local little league field.

[slidey]

Only Fabian knows what he means, but my interpretation of it was that it was a function of weather conditions, insanity of climbs, the fact that this was a grand tour.

This year's Tour of Flanders was held in sub-zero C temperatures. I did not hear Cancellara calling for the race to be cancelled.

[slidey]

Or snooker :banana:

If you want to watch sport with zero chance of PEDs, I'd say your best bet is the local little league field.

[earlfoss]

It's a soap opera. It's not worth being angry at sports figures. When one goes away, two more take his/her place. Just sit back and enjoy the dysfunctional plots being unfolded.

[Mark McM]

I HATE the fact that I now suspect any great performance of being juiced.

There's a parallel to this in our favorite cycling movie, "Breaking Away". After Dave Stoller is intentionally crashed by the professional racers on the Cinzano cycling team:

Dave: "Everybody cheats. I just didn't know."

Father: "Well... now you know"

[rustychisel]

Or snooker :banana:

nope. Ever heard of beta blockers?

[bikinchris]

Clean athletes produced great performances in sport before doping, no reason clean athletes couldn't now. Was Jesse Owens a doper?

I'm not saying Nibali is clean, I have no way of knowing. I'm just saying that a great performance in and of itself is no basis for suspicion. And finishing 17 seconds ahead of the second place finisher, as Nibali did yesterday, doesn't seem that unusual. In that context, it's a choice whether to be suspicious. There's plenty of time to be suspicious if he fails a test.

That idea that people didn't dope at one time in the past is not true. They just used different dope.

Hell, even actresses and actors dope. You don't think that that 60 year old looks like a 35 year old without help, do you?

[harlond]

That idea that people didn't dope at one time in the past is not true. They just used different dope.

Hell, even actresses and actors dope. You don't think that that 60 year old looks like a 35 year old without help, do you?I didn't reach back to Owens because I believe there was a pre-doping era, I was just looking for someone who is unsuspected. But as it turns out, you suspect him. How about Jim Thorpe? Pheidippides?

[Tandem Rider]

I didn't reach back to Owens because I believe there was a pre-doping era, I was just looking for someone who is unsuspected. But as it turns out, you suspect him. How about Jim Thorpe? Pheidippides?

I'm not sure there is a pre-doping era. I also don't believe that everyone cheats all the time. Some people cheat often, some occasionally, some never. I think that it's related to how firmly one's moral compass is attached. Pro level sports (any sport) adds the personal drive to be the best at any cost to the mix.

[bostondrunk]

......Pro level sports (any sport) adds the personal drive to be the best at any cost to the mix.

Exactly. It's not just trying to win the local Saturday masters world championships club ride.......these guys have careers and in some cases millions of dollars on the line.
Hmmmm.....do I go on the doping program and make a ****load of money, fame, etc. or retire broke and let the next guy take the $$ and spotlight...

Lets not forget that most of these high level riders that have been 'disgraced' are very wealthy now and will live very comfortable lives because of their choices.

[shovelhd]

Exactly. It's not just trying to win the local Saturday masters world championships club ride

Guys get caught doping for these.

[Dave B]

We are talking about sport. There is competition and money at stake.

To think athletes are not looking for some sort of edge or advantage seems naive. I get wanting to believe these guys are clean like in any sport we watch, but if they were not taking anything, there would be more folks able to do it.

Just enjoy the spectacle for what it is.

[Tandem Rider]

Guys get caught doping for these.

That is what is really twisted in my opinion.

Go to Natz, if you win you probably won't be tested unless someone drops a dime on you. If you win you get... oh yeah, a shirt, and bragging rights. Come Monday afterwards, same job, same boss, same amount of pay.

If you are juicing you get to cycle down and hopefully keep your health, not all have their health. If you don't have a conscience you will even be able to look at yourself in the mirror when you shave.

[shovelhd]

At Nats, you get a shirt for life. Some of these fundos are qualifiers for Masters Worlds. Same deal. Yeah it's all play fun time but when you line up with stripes you are special. Cheating to get them doesn't surprise me.

[firerescuefin]

Go to Natz, if you win you probably won't be tested unless someone drops a dime on you. If you win you get... oh yeah, a shirt, and bragging rights. Come Monday afterwards, same job, same boss, same amount of pay.

Agree with SH...those stripes are pretty special. Have a close friend who is a multi time NC on the track....he is as clean as they come. Don't throw that net over the entire sport.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

At Nats, you get a shirt for life. Some of these fundos are qualifiers for Masters Worlds. Same deal. Yeah it's all play fun time but when you line up with stripes you are special. Cheating to get them doesn't surprise me.

Hope the eventual lymph node cancer, kidney stones, etc. that come with "enhancement" are worth those special strpes.

Isn't there more testing (RE, actual testing) at the Masters Worlds?

[bicycletricycle]

Get over it and just enjoy the racing

[Tandem Rider]

Agree with SH...those stripes are pretty special. Have a close friend who is a multi time NC on the track....he is as clean as they come. Don't throw that net over the entire sport.

Not throwing it over the entire sport, just being aware that it occasionally goes on, sometimes to win a pair of socks, sometimes for stripes. Like I said earlier, some people have a loose moral compass. I don't have a shirt, I have 2 great long time friends that do, they are clean. I have another friend with one I see at races and race against, not so sure.

You can't dwell on it during a race, since the stuff doesn't ride the bike for them, but there is no point in denial either. For me, when I'm really fit, I don't care what they are doing, I'm competitive. When I'm not going well, I get PO'd about it.

[shovelhd]

My coach is a four time National Champion and a US record holder. I have many friends with stars and bars and rainbow stripes. It's a special club, one that I want very badly to join, but there's no way I'd cheat to get it. When I race with elites and they are doping, hey, it is what it is. When I race with Masters, they beat me, and they're doping, that pisses me off. The guys that really get screwed are the guys denied the podium.

[bikinchris]

I didn't reach back to Owens because I believe there was a pre-doping era, I was just looking for someone who is unsuspected. But as it turns out, you suspect him. How about Jim Thorpe? Pheidippides?

The origin of the word 'doping' is attributed to the Dutch word 'doop,' which is a viscous opium juice, the drug of choice of the ancient Greeks."

http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002366

The Vikings used drugs to increase performance in battle. They used a type of mushroom that had a chance of driving the person insane. But it gave them superhuman strength. Google Vikings+berzerkers.
Doping goes as far back as history records and probably went far earlier than that.

Some people who had otherwise strong moral compasses have used PEDs. Major Taylor was described at one time as being strongly under the influence of what was probably laudanum and acting crazy running around the infield claiming a man with a knife was chasing him. Cocaine, strychnine and nitroglycerine were common in that era.

Lets not whitewash this. Some people WILL cheat. The bigger the stakes, the more likely they will cheat.

[victoryfactory]

Cave man 1:
I dunno, I just can't seem to keep up with the group any more.
I think I'll just bag it and sit under this tree. You guys go on
without me. I'll be ok.

Cave man 2:
Here eat some of these red berries off that tree over there.
works for me!

[Tandem Rider]

My coach is a four time National Champion and a US record holder. I have many friends with stars and bars and rainbow stripes. It's a special club, one that I want very badly to join, but there's no way I'd cheat to get it. When I race with elites and they are doping, hey, it is what it is. When I race with Masters, they beat me, and they're doping, that pisses me off. The guys that really get screwed are the guys denied the podium.

That's it right there. ^^^

[Tony T]

Cave man 1:
I dunno, I just can't seem to keep up with the group any more.
I think I'll just bag it and sit under this tree. You guys go on
without me. I'll be ok.

Cave man 1 gets eaten by tiger.....

[DerekG]

Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
My coach is a four time National Champion and a US record holder. I have many friends with stars and bars and rainbow stripes. It's a special club, one that I want very badly to join, but there's no way I'd cheat to get it. When I race with elites and they are doping, hey, it is what it is. When I race with Masters, they beat me, and they're doping, that pisses me off. The guys that really get screwed are the guys denied the podium.

The point is, does it really matter? The prize on most podium steps is a couple bucks and a six pack. If you are talking about a NC race, I would be glad just to qualify, knowing that I'm not willing to do what it takes to win. You are either taking it too seriously, or not seriously enough, you decide...

[shovelhd]

We're kind of going down a divergent path here. Maybe it's best suited for another thread. I have about as much in common with Di Luca as the guy riding the hybrid on the MUP has with me. But you touched a nerve.

Amateur bike racing in many parts of the country is extremely competitive, especially at the elite level. It's not beer league softball. You don't pull on a uniform, show up, beat the crap out of a ball, down a plate of wings and a pitcher of beer, burp and go home. Sure, it's all for fun. A good winning weekend is a few hundred bucks. But that's where the comparison ends. It's not like triathlon where everyone wins a medal. If I didn't train hard year round I would get slaughtered. Unless you are a prodigy, you can't just show up and expect to do well. You have to have a plan. Hone your strength, skills, and tactics. Practice, practice, practice. So yeah, I take myself too seriously, because if I didn't, I wouldn't be competitive, and if I wasn't competitive, then there's no sense in risking my life racing my bike.

[Tandem Rider]

Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
My coach is a four time National Champion and a US record holder. I have many friends with stars and bars and rainbow stripes. It's a special club, one that I want very badly to join, but there's no way I'd cheat to get it. When I race with elites and they are doping, hey, it is what it is. When I race with Masters, they beat me, and they're doping, that pisses me off. The guys that really get screwed are the guys denied the podium.

The point is, does it really matter? The prize on most podium steps is a couple bucks and a six pack. If you are talking about a NC race, I would be glad just to qualify, knowing that I'm not willing to do what it takes to win. You are either taking it too seriously, or not seriously enough, you decide...

Just to get it straight in my head, your post makes it sound like dopers are the only ones taking it seriously enough. I sincerely hope something is getting lost in this communication over the internet.

[54ny77]

hgh clinics: it's the new white meat.

:rolleyes:

[Lewis Moon]

I may be just a Pollyanna about the whole doping issue, but I can’t conceive of what reward would personally drive me to cheat. How does one rationalize cheating and self esteem?
Yes, cheating has gone on since the primordial ooze; the scientific literature is chock full of the ways organisms cheat in order to pass on their genes. I’m sure it’s not too huge a leap to postulate that “winners” have more opportunities to mate and a better choice…but humans are sentient, have a conscious and are the most altruistic of beasts. We know when we cheat, know it’s wrong and know our winnings are at another’s expense. Even if cheating is the norm, it’s still cheating, and as the author pointed out in “The Death of Marco Pantani”, when drugs are factored in, it’s not necessarily a level playing field where the best and fittest athlete wins, the winner is often the person who has the best reaction to the drugs.
Riders cheat when they take drugs to produce performances they haven’t earned in training. Sponsors and director sportifs cheat when they require a rider to produce beyond their capacity, and profit from it. Race organizers cheat when they design races beyond human capacity in order to produce a grand spectacle and fans cheat when they demand it. The whole system seems hard wired to produce cheaters, but I still can’t get my head around how someone can cheat and live with it.
It’s pan y agua vs. pan y circo.
Sport needs a comprehensive system of drug testing, and penalties need to be a real deterrent. Sponsors need to have contracts that require reimbursement of all payments if an athlete is caught cheating. Athletes also need a sense of shame.
Oh yeah...I have one Strava KOM. It was wind aided and is noted that way.

[christian]

The whole system seems hard wired to produce cheaters, but I still can’t get my head around how someone can cheat and live with it..Um, as it comes to cheating and fraudulent practices, I'm not sure professional cycling is the thing to get excited about.

Sport needs a comprehensive system of drug testing, and penalties need to be a real deterrent. Sponsors need to have contracts that require reimbursement of all payments if an athlete is caught cheating. Athletes also need a sense of shame.Sport has that. At some point you have to judge penalties vs. the potential for false positives, don't you? Should one doping conviction lead to a lifetime ban? Maybe. Sponsor agreements already say that. I don't think you can legislate shame.

But seriously, it's entertainment. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[rugbysecondrow]

I'm not sure there is a pre-doping era. I also don't believe that everyone cheats all the time. Some people cheat often, some occasionally, some never. I think that it's related to how firmly one's moral compass is attached. Pro level sports (any sport) adds the personal drive to be the best at any cost to the mix.

At some point, I am not certain what that point is, it ceases to become a moral issue. Is it viewed as leveling the playing field? The equivalent of buying lightweight carbon wheels which might give you an edge, so too might somebody take PED X, Y or Z. In other sports, if only I were X (faster, bigger, recovered quicker etc) I could bridge the gap. It is a business, a money making money sustaining endeavor. A means by which you support not only yourself, your family, but also your teammates, doctors, trainers, managers etc. You have pressure to perform and does anybody, even the fans, up and down the food chain give a damn where your performance derives from? Nope. In football, the jersey buying, beer drinking, tailgating partying fans give not a squirt of piss if their favorite linebacker is taking anything, so long as he shows up to play. Period.

I like the comment earlier about little league. I have been spending more and more time at my daughters softball field this summer. What I can say though is that parents drive achievement based not on effort but on external factors way too much. For U8 softball, the best bat, expensive batting gloves, fanciest bag, coolest shoes...all of this is also drilled into the kids. Finding an edge. If, even mentally, it sinks in a little that finding this edge is so important, is it so crazy to think these same kids grow up to think and advantage is a good advantage? Its not all of the parents, but enough of them that it creates a culture.

[dana_e]

He looked pathetic popping off the front all over the place, look at me, look at me!!

Sad and comical.

Side note, his bike fits me perfect, seat height and reach

bar drop another story

The fat lady sang

[victoryfactory]

I may be just a Pollyanna about the whole doping issue, but I can’t conceive of what reward would personally drive me to cheat.

How about spending you whole (young) life trying to be the best clean racer and being better than everybody else in your local area. Then you get signed and
you're a pro and someone you respect tells you to get with the program.
You want to be a champion and make the big bucks and champions need to
do whatever needs to be done to win. That's why they call them champions.
Regular people need not apply.
(And please don't confuse the term "champion" with anything noble

VF

[firerescuefin]

How about spending you whole (young) life trying to be the best clean racer and being better than everybody else in your local area. Then you get signed and
you're a pro and someone you respect tells you to get with the program.
You want to be a champion and make the big bucks and champions need to
do whatever needs to be done to win. That's why they call them champions.
Regular people need not apply.
(And please don't confuse the term "champion" with anything noble
VF

Good Summary...Sad, but true...words are all about context.

[Lewis Moon]

Sport has that. At some point you have to judge penalties vs. the potential for false positives, don't you? Should one doping conviction lead to a lifetime ban? Maybe. Sponsor agreements already say that. I don't think you can legislate shame.



Sport has a comprehensive system for drug testing? Then why was it so easy for Armstrong et al. to avoid? Penalties vs. potential false positives? That's what B samples and all the other hematological markers are for.
Racing is not a right, it is a privalage that is granted providing one follows the rules.

[fuzzalow]

(And please don't confuse the term "champion" with anything noble

VF

Good Summary...Sad, but true...words are all about context.

I dunno if I agree with you gentlemen about this one. "Champion" to me has a noble meaning, it confers a higher standard to self and sport.

I think the more pedestrian word that applies to those who cheat and abscond victory is "winner".

[DerekG]

Just to get it straight in my head, your post makes it sound like dopers are the only ones taking it seriously enough. I sincerely hope something is getting lost in this communication over the internet.

It's not that at all. I am merely stating that if a bunch of the guys you race against are doping, you will most likely loose racing against them. If you want to win that badly, get with the program.

I know guys that race local crits in Cat 3 that dope to win $50 when it cost them 10x that just to get there.

I am not willing to "do what it takes" so I don't get too worked up about it.
I race for fun, if I place well, all the better.

Accept the things you can not change...

[oldpotatoe]

I may be just a Pollyanna about the whole doping issue, but I can’t conceive of what reward would personally drive me to cheat. How does one rationalize cheating and self esteem?


I had a biz partner, here for 10 years and he stole over $100,000 from me w/o my knowledge. He is a fraud and liar(and thief) and I cannot put myself in his shoes either. I cannot understand why he did this for 10 years..Not sure how he looks himself in the mirror or talks to his kids as to why he and they can't go to the bike shop anymore.

Cheats work with different wiring than those who don't cheat at these levels.