Another dumb question from the Shinomaster about his Serotta made Atlanta

[shinomaster]

As if I hadn't asked enough questions...here is one more. I have decided to keep my frame, as opposed to selling it or letting it rust to oblivian, collecting the rust particles (Fe203) grinding them up into a fine solution in a morter and pestel with water for painting under my shino glaze (feldspar) as a stain as Toyozo Arakawa (living national treasure for Shino) might have done. I can just go buy rust.
So instead I will re-build my toy bike....Here is my dilemma.(I know I have asked this question before probably about twice)...but I must have killed those brain cells while drinking this dasterdly bottle of beer called "Terrible" from Unibrou..so I can't remember, or even remember how to find my old posts...
As I have obsereved, the bike with a 110 quill stem and a 43 raked fork seems to corner a bit slowly. I plan on putting an even longer 120 or 130 stem on the bike..this will probablymake it corner worse. Will a threadless stem and fork handle any differently than a quill and threaded? I would get a stiff steel quill like this http://cgi.ebay.com/TTT-Pro-Chrome-Corsa-Quill-Type-Stem-1-Inch-130mm-NEW_W0QQitemZ7200604738QQcategoryZ42333QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem
Would a 44 or 45 rake make it quicker? I want to spend as little money as possible...so no ouzo forks...
Again thanks, and sorry for the redundancy.


xxoo me

[Needs Help]

lower rake = bigger trail number
higher rake = lower trail number

lower trail number = quicker steering
higher trail number = slower steering

[shinomaster]

lower rake = bigger trail number
higher rake = lower trail number

lower trail number = quicker steering
higher trail number = slower steering


???? so a 44 0r 45 would be quicker?
:confused:

[Needs Help]

Is 45 a lower rake or a higher rake than 44?

less rake = bigger trail number
more rake = lower trail number

lower trail number = quicker steering
higher trail number = slower steering

[Dr. Doofus]

it is complex, shino-san

less trail make steering feel quicker

more rake make front-center longer

more trail make steering slower

less rake make shorter front center

all of this must be placed in context of your own weight distribution above the steering axis

(how long stem, shino-san?

long stem feel slower but put more weight on front

short stem feel quicker but take weight off front)

and

the front end only functions together with the back

how long are the stays?

how high and how far back or forward is your saddle?

and

the whole package centers on the bb

how high or low is it?

good handling is the product of several factors all working together: the totality of the bike together with the totality of your position

the vast majority of well-conditioned, flexible riders can achieve good position on a stock bike, which in turn will produce good handling, unless the bike is designed by an idiot.

sell the atlanta

use yoga and pilates to create a general flexibility and core conditioning base

work with a real fitter (not a glorified fit-kit trained shop monkey) to transfer that general suppleness into bike-specific suppleness, in order to develop a good position*.

if the position is good, and the bike is good, the handling will be fine


* from the pictures you have posted, you look mad tight and awkward on the bike. money spent on yoga and pilates will do more to help you than a new frame...but you should get that too cause you can't take it with you

(insert psuedo-hip homage to fixed here)

[coylifut]

are you putting fenders on it?

[shinomaster]

are you putting fenders on it?


maybe...

[shinomaster]

Doof...you are right, I'm a mess.

so would a 44 raked fork push the wheel farther from the frame, or closer than a 43?

[Frankwurst]

it is complex, shino-san

less trail make steering feel quicker

more rake make front-center longer

more trail make steering slower

less rake make shorter front center

all of this must be placed in context of your own weight distribution above the steering axis

(how long stem, shino-san?

long stem feel slower but put more weight on front

short stem feel quicker but take weight off front)

and

the front end only functions together with the back

how long are the stays?

how high and how far back or forward is your saddle?

and

the whole package centers on the bb

how high or low is it?

good handling is the product of several factors all working together: the totality of the bike together with the totality of your position

the vast majority of well-conditioned, flexible riders can achieve good position on a stock bike, which in turn will produce good handling, unless the bike is designed by an idiot.

sell the atlanta

use yoga and pilates to create a general flexibility and core conditioning base

work with a real fitter (not a glorified fit-kit trained shop monkey) to transfer that general suppleness into bike-specific suppleness, in order to develop a good position*.

if the position is good, and the bike is good, the handling will be fine


* from the pictures you have posted, you look mad tight and awkward on the bike. money spent on yoga and pilates will do more to help you than a new frame...but you should get that too cause you can't take it with you

(insert psuedo-hip homage to fixed here)
Jeez Doof Your being kinda hard on Shino aren't you? :beer:

[coylifut]

maybe...


you should. and if you do, keep the fork the way it is. it'll provide a little more fender clearance and when the grounds wet you won't be diving into corners anyway. who cares if it steers a little slower than your summer bike.

[Serpico]

needs help,

thanks for the graphic and explanation, was a mystery to me before :o

what is rake, I understand how hta affects trail, but rake is still unclear concept

[bcm119]

Shino- you could spend money on pilates ala Doof, but considering the time of year I would be more likely to go to belmont Station and spend the money on more Unibroue. :beer:

[Sacha White]

Shino,

to add to the confusion, be sure to take into account the length of a new fork and how this will effect ht angle, st angle, bb height etc.

-Sacha

[Needs Help]

needs help,

thanks for the graphic and explanation, was a mystery to me before :o

what is rake, I understand how hta affects trail, but rake is still unclear concept
See the image below.

Referring to the original image: as the rake increases, the vertical line through the hub moves to the right, while the line denoting the head tube angle stays fixed.

[SGP]

...but I must have killed those brain cells while drinking this dasterdly bottle of beer called "Terrible" from Unibrou..
xxoo me


how is the unibrou? trying to find something new, i almost bought some last weekend.

[flydhest]

Doof...you are right, I'm a mess.

so would a 44 raked fork push the wheel farther from the frame, or closer than a 43?

Shino,

44 is farther from the frame. It is more rake. It is less trail. It will handle quicker, all other things equal.

Sacha points out that you want to look at the length of the fork. What he means is the following. Suppose the fork, from the HT to the ground grew 2 feet. The front end will be pushed up and the HT angle will be slacker. Slacker hta tend to slow handling. Now, 2 feet is clearly an exaggeration, but it ought to illustrate the point. I believe the measurement in question is often referred to as the "span" of the fork.

[shinomaster]

top tube 56.5 cm
seat tube length 54. cm
Seat tube angle 73.5
head tube angle 73.5
chain stay length 41. cm
rear drop? 7. cm
fork rake 4.7 cm
fork span 36.50 cm
head tube length 33.09 cm
bb height 27. cm
wheelbase 99.73
trail 5.17 cm
front center dist. 59.74 cm

My original icon fork got busted...then I got a serotta kinesis fork..
from my dealer...
Do these numbers tell what kind of fork would be best? Or worst? Or why my bike corners and descends like a whale?

[Sacha White]

" Do these numbers tell what kind of fork would be best? Or worst? Or why my bike corners and descends like a whale?"

Shino,

It probably has something to do with your 33 cm heat tube...

I think there is a joke in there somewhere about 33 centimeters and a whale...

-Sacha

[shinomaster]

" Do these numbers tell what kind of fork would be best? Or worst? Or why my bike corners and descends like a whale?"

Shino,

It probably has something to do with your 33 cm heat tube...

I think there is a joke in there somewhere about 33 centimeters and a whale...

-Sacha

oops....it's 13.0 cm according to my tape.. My sheet is an old fax from 1999