OT: Raising boys (brothers)

[firerescuefin]

If you're a brother to a brother(s)...or a dad that's raised boys (plural)....I'm soliciting a little feedback.

youngest just turned 3...oldest will soon turn 5....new youngest (another boy) will be here very shortly.

My 2 boys love each other...my youngest is tough as nails...my oldest, not so much, but he's more talented than his younger brother. Youngest is a scrapper and is not afraid to mix it up with his brother...at all....and I imagine that little dude #3 will have his share of battles to fight.

I rough house with my boys....well because they're boys, and I'm not raising girls. I want them to be gentleman, do not tolerate bullying and personal attacks against others, but want them to grow up to be competitive and willing to stand up for themselves/what is right.

I struggle with pulling them off each other vs letting them sort things out amongst themselves. Obviously, there are situations that are clear....and I'm not talking cage match stuff here.

I don't have any siblings, but grew up playing sports, and have spent 16 years in the fire service, where I've been the little brother, middle brother, big brother...and now entering into the dad figure.

Anyway...kind of a ramble, but would appreciate some first person experience from folks that have been there as a brother and a dad. :help:

[christian]

Impossible to say over the internet, really, but I think generally, people intercede too early these days. Children are really reasonably capable of sorting out their own differences.

No biting, though. :)

[firerescuefin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv7mTPKpet4


This is pretty much a daily occurence:) .....almost exactly....as you'll see Christian...no biting.

[mcgillicuddy_p]

I have two sons that are exactly the same age as your boys (we will not be having a third). My older son rarely (if ever) gets physical in a negative way with his little brother, but the little guy mixes it up at the drop of a hat, but only at home and with his big brother. I am hoping that diminishes with time. I try to let them sort things out by themselves as much as possible. Not only do I think it is good for them, but I love listening to the negotiation. Not much advice from me-do the best you can and I am sure things will work out just fine. Good luck!

[CNY rider]

I have 3 girls.
5 year old twins and a 3 year old.
The 3 year old is tough as nails and will drop the gloves first every time and often comes out ahead.

Something about being a younger sibling I guess.

[maximus]

Not that I am full of great advice, but I have a son (10 months - only one for now, but hoping to have a second soonish) and a younger brother. My brother is about 2.5 years younger than me, so similar age difference for your boys.

We wrestled and rough housed pretty much every day from the time we were old enough to go at it, until about the time we were teenagers. Even then we would get into a wrestling session from time to time. I definitely beat up on him, being older, I was always the bigger guy. It wasnt until we got older (say like me being 10) that he really caught up to me and gave me a run for my money.

In hindsight, I was a bully to him at times. It was usually all fun and games, but I was def the alpha dog and let him know. Little boys are just rough and tumble by nature. Our parents definitely put us in place when things got out of hand. One time I broke his arm by accident - we were taking turns holding up couch cushions while the other person belly flopped on top of the other. Great idea right?

Anyway, I guess what I am saying is it's natural that they square off in the name of fun. I don't think its OK to teach physical agression as a problem solving skill. I really can't think of a single instance in my life where my wit and patience could not overcome a threat. Street smarts is one thing - but it probably won't come from good old fashioned sibling rivalry. If things are getting out of hand and there is bad tension between them, I think that's when you pull them off.

I kinda want to wrestle my younger brother now - and we are in our mid 30s ;)

[flydhest]

I rough house with my boys....well because they're boys, and I'm not raising girls. I want them to be gentleman, do not tolerate bullying and personal attacks against others, but want them to grow up to be competitive and willing to stand up for themselves/what is right.


so, I have some thoughts, having a son and being the youngest of four boys born 5 years apart, but I wanted to start with the bit that I quoted above, because it puzzles me and may help shed light on where you want to go. What aspect of those things you describe would you not want for a girl? If we take "gentleman" as I think you mean it --polite, well-mannered, respectful --would you not want a girl that doesn't tolerate bullying, or who is not competitive, or who won't stand up for themselves or what is right?

I hope that doesn't come off snide, as I don't mean it to. These things are on my mind, as I have a daughter and a son. My general view with kid interaction is the mantra "lifeguard not referee." Sounds not too far from where you are. I think the other goals that you list, however, are more fundamental and ought to trump it, as needed. If the kids get bruised (physically or emotionally) but brush it off and go back to playing together and love each other, I think you are golden. That is mostly where my brothers and I are and have been for a long time. In general, I suspect the physical is less important and less enduring than the emotional--within reason, of course.

Sidebar--A River Runs Through It is both a great movie and a great book about brothers and tensions and such . . .

Anyway, the deal from my perspective is how much of a pattern and what type starts. You are astute in picking up the personality differences between them. That, in my view, is a great start. If they both feel valued for themselves and who they are, then scraps and scrapes likely will always be just that.

I think for the specific of letting them sort things out. In my house my parents erred a bit much on the side of pulling us apart too soon. It left resentment in the older ones as they were not always the provacuteurs and felt as if they had been wronged and did not have a chance to right things. On the other hand, again, only in my view, if this is always literally about physicality, my instinct is to push them to a different way of working things out, but letting them get to it.

It's tough and complicated . . . but man, ain't it worth it? :)

[veggieburger]

Teach your boys to love and respect each other. Your kids will emulate you and your behavior as it pertains to conflict resolution, be it with family, friends or telemarketers. That being said - these tussles you are referring to - are they "enjoyed" by both, or is the eldest being bullied? Do they walk away better men? Also, does the younger have coping skills other than getting physical?

[firerescuefin]

Flydhest...Great input!. PM'd you as not to derail the thread.

Veggieburger...everything you put is what I am realizing and trying to wrap my mind around. Oldest is quick to leverage his age, position, and size....the youngest is quick to anger. Nothing new under the sun there. Keeping perspective on the big picture is what I am trying to do rather than default to what's convenient for me or the momennt

[Ardan MacNessa]

My 2 boys love each other...

-my youngest is tough as nails...
-my oldest, not so much, but
-he's more talented than his younger brother.
-Youngest is a scrapper and is not afraid to mix it up with his brother...at all....
-and I imagine that little dude #3 will have his share of battles to fight.

Your children are 5 and 3 years old. It seems you're already "casting" their personalities in stone. I wouldn't do that myself, especially in front of either child if they're in ear shot of over hearing adult comments. Sometimes parents can send conflicting messages that young children do not understand very well. That's an observation on my part, and I could be totally off base by saying it. I've seen and experienced situations where what we perceive as character traits in our children at very young ages are actually self projected.

Personally, I have children same age separations as you. The younger was very passive and the older -very aggressive. By the time they hit puberty the older was handed their arse squarely by the younger and you would not have recognised the complete change in social dynamics knowing them as young children.

They can and will continually surprise you. You'd be amazed how children change and develop at these ages, and this includes their personalities. Be Switzerland, don't take sides, and never pick favourites [I know, it's very, very hard and I wish you luck].

p.s. I have nothing against your parenting skills, contrary, I think your questions are extremely normal, loving and caring. I'm sure your boys will be splendid and I pray for the health of the new coming baby [and the entire family].

[redir]

FWIW about 150 years ago it was considered gentlemanly to solve an argument in a duel.

It's all relative.

I was the youngest of four, three brothers and a sister. We fought. We all turned out just fine.

[firerescuefin]

I don't think it's off base at all. As human beings we are always trying to compartmentalize, simplify, come to conclusions....because honestly, it's convenient and expedient. You're right. I don't want to create a self fulfilling prophecy, and consciously guard against doing just that. Great input!:)


Your children are 5 and 3 years old. It seems you're already "casting" their personalities in stone. I wouldn't do that myself, especially in front of either child if they're in ear shot of over hearing adult comments. Sometimes parents can send conflicting messages that young children do not understand very well. That's an observation on my part, and I could be totally off base by saying it. I've seen and experienced situations where what we perceive as character traits in our children at very young ages are actually self projected. Personally, I have children same age separations as you. The younger was very passive and the older -very aggressive. By the time they hit puberty the older was handed their arse squarely by the younger and you would not have recognised the complete change in social dynamics knowing them as young children.

They can and will continually surprise you. You'd be amazed how children change and develop at these ages, and this includes their personalities. Be Switzerland, don't take sides, and never pick favourites [I know, it's very, very hard and I wish you luck].

p.s. I have nothing against your parenting skills, contrary, I think your questions are extremely normal, loving and caring. I'm sure your boys will be splendid and I pray for the health of the new coming baby [and the entire family].

[veggieburger]

The best discipline for a 16 year old? Teach him the right way when he's 6. Yes, they are young, but their minds and soft and incredibly impressionable right now. Get the fundamentals right and the rest should follow.

[gavingould]

i don't have kids and don't plan to, but i grew up as the youngest of 3 boys. one 2 years older, the other 9 years older. the oldest had his own space being that much older so he stayed out of it, but the middle one and i fought A LOT. probably because we shared a room... i imagine if we both had our own space we could retreat to and be alone we'd have had fewer problems.

but we fought; off and on from as soon as i could fight back up until he moved out, probably worst when we were 13-15 or so and tapering off heavily after that. often it'd start playful but progress to bloody noses and black eyes, and usually over the most trivial of slights. there was often the threat of discipline from our father, but he was a bit too busy to make that happen. eventually, i grew to be bigger and stronger so it fizzled pretty quickly around the time i got to be 16 or so.

also, we rapidly destroyed a succession of cheap bmx bikes and parts thereof on our neighborhood woods' trails, jumping off and over things that we probably should not have...
we both ended up with a lot more scars from bike crashin' than we did from fightin'.

through all of it, even when we were enemies, we'd still team up to fight off other kids and defend each other at times, so there was still that love and respect for one another.

kids change and they do it rapidly! if as you have as many positive influences and outlets for them as possible, they'll turn out alright.

[crownjewelwl]

make em sit next to each other and hold hands if they get in a fight

deadly effective

[54ny77]

that should be forum rules for online pissing matches.

:p

make em sit next to each other and hold hands if they get in a fight

deadly effective

[rwsaunders]

Two boys...17 and 14, along with an older sister who's in college. The two boys are joined at the hip as the younger one idolizes the older one and the older one takes responsibility for looking out for the younger one. I'm not looking forward to the day where they have to separate due to college.

Both are different socially, academically, athletically and in physical stature, but there is a bond there that is pretty damn tight. You wait, they'll get there. I always joke that I have a 15-1/2 year old...as the 14 year old acts like he is 17 and the 17 year old sometimes acts like he is 14.

[retrogrouchy]

Your children are 5 and 3 years old. It seems you're already "casting" their personalities in stone. I wouldn't do that myself, especially in front of either child if they're in ear shot of over hearing adult comments. Sometimes parents can send conflicting messages that young children do not understand very well. That's an observation on my part, and I could be totally off base by saying it. I've seen and experienced situations where what we perceive as character traits in our children at very young ages are actually self projected.

Personally, I have children same age separations as you. The younger was very passive and the older -very aggressive. By the time they hit puberty the older was handed their arse squarely by the younger and you would not have recognised the complete change in social dynamics knowing them as young children.

They can and will continually surprise you. You'd be amazed how children change and develop at these ages, and this includes their personalities. Be Switzerland, don't take sides, and never pick favourites [I know, it's very, very hard and I wish you luck].

p.s. I have nothing against your parenting skills, contrary, I think your questions are extremely normal, loving and caring. I'm sure your boys will be splendid and I pray for the health of the new coming baby [and the entire family].

I would echo this (except for the praying bit - just not my thing).

I fit both of your criteria, fwiw. have (only) two boys, two years apart, now 23 and 25. My only sibling is a younger brother, so I'm a first-born (and male). Above all, try not to pigeon-hole either of them, or take sides. We used to (too often) default to blaming the aggressive one when conflicts arose, then finally realized that the other one was playing him like a Stradivarius sometimes! With very predictable outcomes, until we caught on. They were/are very, very different personalities/persons, and are doing very different things now, but are still at least in somewhat regular contact (older one just got engaged, so that's a milestone). Don't fret things too much, I guess? It's good that you are an attentive parent, though - millions aren't, unfortunately.

[Tandem Rider]

In my limited experience all kids, including siblings, are different. I am the rough and tumble, fearless one with a body full of scars. My younger brother has never been in a fistfight in his life, obviously far more intelligent than I.

My 17 year old is the more quiet, also never been in a fight in his life, more timid (except on skis), gives up easily. 13 year old is tough as nails, fearless, a scrapper. 17 year old is a boy, 13 year old is a girl.

Point is that they are born with their own personality in spite of how hard we as parents try to mold it precisely as we see fit. Their personalities will learn to thrive with yours. Being a parent is kind of like racing, there are times you have to believe in yourself 100% and just go no matter what.

[shovelhd]

We have two boys and I am the oldest of three. My wife is an only child, so I'm usually the one putting the sibling stuff into perspective.

Some great stuff has already been said, I'll just echo letting them work it out, to a point. I draw the line at injuries that look like they're going to require a trip to the doctor. No weapons, no large objects, no teeth, etc. I look at it this way. They are going to be at each other for a very long time, even as adults. They may be best friends for years, and then something can happen, and they won't talk for what seems like forever. You can't control that. The most important thing to teach them, more important than being able to defend themselves and stand up for themselves, is to teach them right from wrong. As they grow up they will develop their impression of this on their own but it will be formed from the core that you taught them. Your job is the core. The rest is up to them.

A 5 year old and a 3 year old are worlds apart in terms of maturity, and that's assuming that they have identical personalities. Everyone gets comfortable with themselves at their own rate. If the younger one seems "tougher" than the older one right now, that's just who they are and where they are in their development. That doesn't mean that both won't grow up strong, capable, and confident. They just may take different roads to get there, and on their own schedule.

My two kids are polar opposites. They couldn't be more different.

[retrogrouchy]

Agreed. Well-said. A lot of good discussion in this thread!

[93legendti]

My daughter is 10. My son is 7. My son will spar with me and he is relentless. When my daughter fights with him, he refuses to defend himself, even though I told him it is ok (with caveats not to hit her in the face and only retaliate in kind.) With his sister he is a pushover and too sweet. Frustrating.

I tell my daughter that her day will come, just like my older brother's day came when he was 15...:) Some lessons need to be learned.

On the other hand, there are 4 girls in his class who all vie for his attention. So, he has that going for him.

[dsb]

Oldest brother of four here, each of us is quite different, as you would expect, the biggest problems I remember were a result of unfair/dissimilar treatment. I got in trouble for stuff that my younger brothers didn't because I was 'old enough to know better', my parents were way more strict with me than they were with my younger brothers.

The other issues came from putting an older brother (usually me) 'in charge' and held responsible for the behavior of the youngers, it sucked for me, and my younger brothers resented my being put in a position of authority.

There wasn't much fighting, I'm 3 years older than my next older brother, and 7 years older than the youngest. The 2 in the middle would get into it from time to time, mostly because the 3rd oldest (second youngest?) had a mouth on him.

Come to find out, the second youngest, the one with the mouth, was very verbally abusive to the youngest. Sadly, I only found out about that recently (as in last year), and my youngest brother probably suffered some bullying type effects as a result.