Good Read: The Lost Art of the Group Ride

[Nooch]

http://www.bikelaw.com/blog/lost-art-of-the-group-ride/

It seems all the rides around here have fallen apart the way it's described... But then there are the other rides that haven't -- I wish they didn't happen on Sunday right before church..

[Ardan MacNessa]

...snip
Third, different rides are advertised by average speed, but speed is only one part of the equation. This approach makes speed the sole metric for judging a cyclist, and creates the false impression that a fit rider is a good one. Almost anyone can be somewhat fast on a bike, but few learn to be elegant, graceful cyclists....

I agree with this statement, but I don't agree with the yester-year statement below


...snip
Before the internet, before custom bikes, and before Lance, it was done better...

We had plenty of crashes when I was young in the 80's. I won't mention the amount of tubular tires rolling off rims and the complete lack of attention to red lights, stop signs, helmets or pedestrian cross walks. One could say, we were cowboys, on spokes.

YKMVoC
Your kilometrage may vary of course

[cmg]

sounds like most of my group rides. So this isn't normal?

[gdw]

The few group rides I did in the 80's "before the internet, before custom bikes, and before Lance", were clusterf**ks led by arrogant snobs. Men's league softball, hockey, and twilight league golf lacked the phoney pretense, attracted better athletes, and were more fun. :banana:

[Scuzzer]

The few group rides I did in the 80's "before the internet, before custom bikes, and before Lance", were clusterf**ks led by arrogant snobs.

Hahahhaaaa! Yes they certainly were. My first group ride ever was with the college club level team in 1983. They put posters all over the place on campus advertising it as a way to get new members and about 35 guys showed up. For the first 5 miles they dispensed some knowledge and generally kept things smooth and then for the next 20 miles they had a hammerfest to see if they could ride everyone off their wheel. They succeeded.

Their claim to fame was one guys 5th place in Cat 3 crit in Chicago the summer before. Whooopdeedoo.

[fiataccompli]

it's a shame about the idea of a mentorship/apprenticeship being lost. While i can understand why 'veteran' cyclists may not have a world of patience for the constant influx of new riders, failing to carry that tradition ultimately really changes the nature of the sport.

I know it's a cliche to say, but we live today in such an 'instant' world where anyone we want to talk to, anything we want to buy, anything we need to research is literally available right away, that I guess we unwittingly foster the idea that anyone can kit up & saddle up and there's nothing left to do but go faster.

In my experience, I do still see a bit of the traditional culture and I always enjoy (whether I benefit directly or observe others doing so) riding with some of the more experienced riders I know who very much embody that ethic of teaching/training. The day when I have nothing left to learn is probably the day I die.

[witcombusa]

the best rides are solo...

[gavingould]

i recall this making the rounds pretty heavily when it was first posted a year and a half ago. still pretty well true. i prefer riding with small groups where everyone knows each other pretty well, have likely raced together, and have probably also read that article a few times or been chastised for the things in it before.

unfortunately, most are too PC to tell new riders on their first few group rides about these 'rules' - the sooner someone pulls them aside and points out what they're doing wrong, the sooner they stop doing it, or stop doing group rides... i'd prefer the former to the latter, but some also just don't listen or take it as rudeness.

[cash05458]

yeah, I don't know...I can't stand group rides...too much wheel sucking and then falsetto testosterone at stop sign points via that...besides, they insist on helmets as if it is any of their business...riding alone is the only way in my book...maybe once in awhile with a buddy...but usually he wants to ride up next to me and chat which should just be done later while having a beer together but some guys don't seem to get this and get their panties into a wad when you tell them that...screw mentorship and learn how on your own...best way to learn anything actually whether that be riding, music, art, literature, anything that might become important to you really...ride alone!

[shovelhd]

I'm surprised he didn't mention Strava. Before anyone calls me a hater, it has been the cause of many group ride issues since it came out. PB's, KOM's, aggressive ride profiles, attacks on what should be "B" rides, etc. etc. etc. Hammerfests are an exception because everyone knows the route and knows what to expect. But when you go on a group "B" ride that is slated for 3 hours and 50 miles and guys are charging up the climbs, setting up leadouts for town lines, running stop signs, leaving riders who can't keep up in the dust, and changing the route to "add another thousand feet", then the original objective is lost, and just dropping off isn't always an easy solution. All this existed before Strava but it has just made it more common. It has promulgated a class of riders that dress like racers, ride race bikes, are strong and competitive, but they don't race, don't race often, or race in the lower categories. They use group rides for training and for their little competitions. If this all works for everyone, great. Most of the time it doesn't.

[VonTrapp]

the best rides are solo...

Solo is simple and smooth. But, group rides can be fun and furious. Time and a place for both. Though, I'd guess most cyclists are quite okay with extended alone and quiet time. Riding for hours without seeing anyone can be quite filling.

[rice rocket]

I'm surprised he didn't mention Strava. Before anyone calls me a hater, it has been the cause of many group ride issues since it came out. PB's, KOM's, aggressive ride profiles, attacks on what should be "B" rides, etc. etc. etc. Hammerfests are an exception because everyone knows the route and knows what to expect. But when you go on a group "B" ride that is slated for 3 hours and 50 miles and guys are charging up the climbs, setting up leadouts for town lines, running stop signs, leaving riders who can't keep up in the dust, and changing the route to "add another thousand feet", then the original objective is lost, and just dropping off isn't always an easy solution. All this existed before Strava but it has just made it more common. It has promulgated a class of riders that dress like racers, ride race bikes, are strong and competitive, but they don't race, don't race often, or race in the lower categories. They use group rides for training and for their little competitions. If this all works for everyone, great. Most of the time it doesn't.

This article predated Strava's boom in popularity.

Someone digs it up every couple months.

[cash05458]

I have been hating group rides since way before strata...:)

[Tandem Rider]

This article predated Strava's boom in popularity.

Someone digs it up every couple months.

If you can't win a race you might as well win a B training ride.

[jbrainin]

it's a shame about the idea of a mentorship/apprenticeship being lost. While i can understand why 'veteran' cyclists may not have a world of patience for the constant influx of new riders, failing to carry that tradition ultimately really changes the nature of the sport.


The problem today is that it is virtually impossible to teach new riders about proper group riding. From what I've seen or experienced lately, almost all attempts to advise a rider about some less than safe practice results in profane responses. The new riders have arrived at the group ride entitled to ride however they wish and they'll angrily tell you so.

[shovelhd]

The problem today is that it is virtually impossible to teach new riders about proper group riding. From what I've seen or experienced lately, almost all attempts to advise a rider about some less than safe practice results in profane responses. The new riders have arrived at the group ride entitled to ride however they wish and they'll angrily tell you so.

Interesting. I coach a Cat5 clinic. If anyone gets profane with me they could lose their number. They know it. If they curse in the field within earshot of an official they are subject to relegation, DQ, suspension, or a combination of all of the above. They know that, too.

Cat5's are nothing more than group riders who pinned on a number. Amazing what a little structure does for egos.

Maybe this should be in the brother's thread. :)

[cash05458]

cursing gets you tossed out? what is this...little league baseball via the church diamond? these guys are adults right?

[shovelhd]

It's in the rulebook. It is your responsibility as a racer to know and understand the rules. Breaking the rules has consequences. If you don't agree with the rules, voice your displeasure with the governing body. Simple as that.

[Bikerist]

The nastiness of group rides seems to have peaked a few years back. IME, they seem to have mellowed and become more enjoyable in the last year or two.

More commuter type riders and less Freds in full kit.

[Ardan MacNessa]

I know it's a cliche to say, but we live today in such an 'instant' world where anyone we want to talk to, anything we want to buy, anything we need to research is literally available right away, that I guess we unwittingly foster the idea that anyone can kit up & saddle up and there's nothing left to do but go faster.

Great post ^^ and shovelhd's post too on Strava and the generation of I.S.G. [instant self gratification].

[jbrainin]

Interesting. I coach a Cat5 clinic. If anyone gets profane with me they could lose their number. They know it. If they curse in the field within earshot of an official they are subject to relegation, DQ, suspension, or a combination of all of the above. They know that, too.

Cat5's are nothing more than group riders who pinned on a number. Amazing what a little structure does for egos.

Maybe this should be in the brother's thread. :)

If only we were a racing club instead of a touring club, we might be able to get these folks to listen to us. However, they paid their ~$25 membership fee, so "screw you" or "f#^$ off" for telling them what or how to do something.

I suspect these guys who can't take advice on the road are Cat6 wannabe's. They fancy themselves studs but they lack the nerve to race, instead contenting themselves with destroying the pace of a group ride then smugly strutting around after having "kicked everyone's butts."

[drinkslinger]

I wish there were more clubs that actually get involved in rider development. I was a member of a local club for about a year. They had basically no interest in development. After getting crashed out of a B ride by a half-wheeler, I decided to just ride solo. At least if I ride solo, what I don't know won't hurt anyone else.

I'd love for more clubs to spend time on development/clinics. I'd happily listen to someone with a gazillion miles under their belt give me pointers on how to do X. Or why I shouldn't do Y.

[EDS]

I wish there were more clubs that actually get involved in rider development. I was a member of a local club for about a year. They had basically no interest in development. After getting crashed out of a B ride by a half-wheeler, I decided to just ride solo. At least if I ride solo, what I don't know won't hurt anyone else.

I'd love for more clubs to spend time on development/clinics. I'd happily listen to someone with a gazillion miles under their belt give me pointers on how to do X. Or why I shouldn't do Y.

One of the big local clubs here in NYC has an annual program devoted to group riding dynamics/skills consisting of weekly rides over the course of the spring. You have a group of 2 or 3 leaders and ride with the same bunch each week, all grouped based on speed. Alot of people will do the program for more than once - graduating to a faster group the next year.

That program was great for me as it gave me my first introduction to group riding. One of the members of this forum was actually one of the leaders for my group. That was a couple years ago and he probably couldn't pick me out of a lineup now, but a hearty thanks nonetheless!

[christian]

Agree with EDS - the SIG program is pretty great. Not that it's not sometimes pedantic, but the graduates generally can ride pretty sensibly in groups. At the very least, they don't overlap wheels and they don't throw their bike backwards 12" to stand up. And people really take feedback well in that setting because it's defined as a specific series of "learning rides."

BTW, do we know each other? I rode a lot with NYCC from ~2002 until ~2007 or so.

[oldpotatoe]

the best rides are solo...

Bing, bing, bing, we have a winner!!

[oldpotatoe]

The nastiness of group rides seems to have peaked a few years back. IME, they seem to have mellowed and become more enjoyable in the last year or two.

More commuter type riders and less Freds in full kit.

No Fred's on commuters? How about 'hipsters'?

[Ralph]

I don't mind riding with my regular group of 4-5....we ride a lot together. We all know who's had a knee or hip replacement....who can't take a chance on going down, etc. So we ride accordingly. Safely. And I'm not talking about some wimps....these guys are all riding 100-200 miles per week. We obey all traffic laws.

It's the large groups I won't ride with. First few gets thru the light, the rest run it, etc. Blocking intersections, motorists pissed with horns blaring, blocking roads, riding 3 abreast, etc. Bad for cycling community. Cops should write a lot more tickets I think.

[Gummee]

I've been on all kinds of group rides. From the 130+ pack of Sat AM riders in the SDBC ride to the 6-8 or the Haymarket A ride.

I've seen a lot over the years.

Just like driving in traffic, its not all about you. People are going to do stupid stuff. S--t happens. Deal with it and don't ride next to em any more.

Riding solo can be an answer, but man! does that get boring. No one to talk to. No cute girls to look at. No paceline to work in. All you've got is you, your bars, and that front tire that never seems to go any faster. Not only boring, but you get X fast and no faster.

My $.02

M

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . almost all attempts to advise a rider about some less than safe practice results in profane responses. The new riders have arrived at the group ride entitled to ride however they wish and they'll angrily tell you so.

. . . where I'm entitled to whatever I want, whenever I want, and not pay for it, not have to work for it, and if something goes wrong it's always somebody else's fault. I'm never wrong and it's always all about me, me, me . . .

I tend to avoid most group rides. (Even though I did do BikeNY a few weeks ago, I don't really count that as a "group ride" in what I understand the context of this discussion to be.)

There are some local club rides that are friendly and where I know lots of people. Others are less welcoming. If I go to a group ride out of town I am always on the alert to the fact I need to have a map and cue sheet and be unafraid to head off on my own if the ride personality turns out to be toxic. Sometimes that just means unfriendly to newcomers. Other times--more often--it means every ride turns into a race. That's just not what I'm into.

To my memory it's no worse today than it was years ago. I'll never forget my first club group ride in Tulsa shortly after I got my Vitus in 1984. I showed up, the regulars hardly said hello, and I then spent the next 20 miles at 26-28mph hanging on and looking at nothing but the derailleur of the guy in front of me. When they eventually dropped me nobody looked back or said a word. What a bunch of arrogant d*cks.

Then I found the other local club--the "casual" club that was far friendlier to newbies and far friendlier in general. Same town, totally different mentalities.

BBD

[mktng]

i read the title wrong.
i thought it read. "the art of getting lost in a group ride."
usually me when im dropped 60km's in in buttfk nowhere. at least i've perfected one art.

[InspectorGadget]

I am not saying I'm a great rider, but I am grateful to the friends that took me under their wings and taught me everything on the list below.

Here is some of what you learned:

To ride for months each year in the small ring.
To take your cycling shorts off immediately after a ride.
To start with a humble bike, probably used.
To pull without surging.
To run rotating pace line drills and flick others through.
To form an echelon.
To ride through the top of a climb.
To hold your line in a corner.
To stand up smoothly and not throw your bike back.
To give the person ahead of you on a climb a little more room to stand up.
To respect the yellow line rule.
To point out significant road problems.
To brake less, especially in a pace line.
To follow the wheel in front and not overlap.


Some of my best cycling memories are the rides with the group that mentored me decades ago.

[bluesea]

Here is some of what you learned:

To ride for months each year in the small ring.
To take your cycling shorts off immediately after a ride.
To start with a humble bike, probably used.
To pull without surging.
To run rotating pace line drills and flick others through.
To form an echelon.
To ride through the top of a climb.
To hold your line in a corner.
To stand up smoothly and not throw your bike back.
To give the person ahead of you on a climb a little more room to stand up.
To respect the yellow line rule.
To point out significant road problems.
To brake less, especially in a pace line.
To follow the wheel in front and not overlap.



I stopped asking why on most of these items a long time ago, but some things still repel.

[coylifut]

I think the author has cognitively mixed the current abundance of all-comers group rides and the club ride he grew up with. Yes. The all-comer’s ride has grown to be bigger and more common. It is now fed by those who skipped the properly policed club ride and replaced it with coaching, power meters and fitness. 30 years ago, there was a few developmental clubs per population area and just about all of the fast cyclists belonged to one of the clubs. When they mixed, it was a bit of a throw down, but they did know how to properly drive their bicycles. Now, there seems to be lots of teams, but the amount of cycling clubs based on the European model has stayed steady or declined. When I look at the American pros that race for top teams that I’m personally acquainted with, such as Farrar and Rathe on Garmin, they are both a product of the traditional club model. There’s never a substitute for properly learned fundamentals.

With the above said, the very worst example of the free-for-all, community terrorizing all-comers ride, is run by the oldest touring club in the area.

[skijoring]

PWTC? I remember their 'group' rides. Not much fun in a free-for-all.

I think the author has cognitively mixed the current abundance of all-comers group rides and the club ride he grew up with. Yes. The all-comer’s ride has grown to be bigger and more common. It is now fed by those who skipped the properly policed club ride and replaced it with coaching, power meters and fitness. 30 years ago, there was a few developmental clubs per population area and just about all of the fast cyclists belonged to one of the clubs. When they mixed, it was a bit of a throw down, but they did know how to properly drive their bicycles. Now, there seems to be lots of teams, but the amount of cycling clubs based on the European model has stayed steady or declined. When I look at the American pros that race for top teams that I’m personally acquainted with, such as Farrar and Rathe on Garmin, they are both a product of the traditional club model. There’s never a substitute for properly learned fundamentals.

With the above said, the very worst example of the free-for-all, community terrorizing all-comers ride, is run by the oldest touring club in the area.

[William]

Anyone remember the C.O.N.I. Manual or Eddie Borysewich’s book?

I went from Crew to cycling due to a back injury. I bought a copy of Eddie B's book before I went out for the OSU cycling team so that when I showed up for that first Winter training ride I at least had an idea of what was going on out there. Still have that one. Luckily we had some good coaches who ran us newbies (and the whole team) through many clinics on bike handling, group riding, and race tactics. Good training is invaluable. It brought me success as well as saved my neck in numerous close calls. I mostly solo ride now but when I do an occasional group ride.....well, it's like riding a bike, you never forget how to do it and I feel totally comfortable (as long as everyone else can hold a line ;) ).






William

[bikingshearer]

The things I learned during my two or three years of (extremely) low-level racing almost 40 years ago have held me in good stead ever since. Because of them, I have been welcomed into pretty much every single group or stray paceline I wanted to join in ever since.

To me, every cyclist on the road - racer, tourist, commuter, smell-the-flowers weekender, whatever - should know the basics. How to pedal in a smooth, consistent rhythm (putting in the miles in the small chainring will do that, and a fixed gear will show your pedaling stroke rough spots right now). How to not overlap wheels. If you are going to ride in a paceline, how to not surge when you hit the front, how to maintain a steady gap and a steady line and to take short pulls. How to hold your line, on the straights and in turns.

Oh, and when you are on someone's wheel, know not to stare at his/her back tire and mesmerize yourself.

There are skills you simply have to have in order to be predictable to other cyclists and to cars (and thus much, much safer). Predictability and remaining alert are the keys to being safe on a bike. Or in a car. Or as a pedestrian.

Riding solo can be great. Riding with one or a few friends can be great. Riding with a larger group of reasonably knowledgable riders (or ones who are willing to learn) can be great. Those who take the "get off my lawn" approach to riding with others are missing out on good times.

[Ti Designs]

the best rides are solo...

The best rides are so slow?

[soulspinner]

great post ^^ and shovelhd's post too on strava and the generation of i.s.g. [instant self gratification].

+100

[witcombusa]

The best rides are so slow?

Absolutely :banana:

[cash05458]

Inspector...I am sorry...but, seriously, you learned via mentorship:

"To take your cycling shorts off immediately after a ride." ?

I thought this sorta stuff was taught in 5th grade gym right?:p

[victoryfactory]

I'm not a fan of "group" anything.
It dilutes any experience.
It forces people to compromise just to be part of a group.
It conveys a "we are a group" get out of our way vibe which I find annoying.
It snarles traffic and angers civilians.
The last time I was in a big group ride was at the 2005 Serotta open house.
Yes, it was fun but the whole time I was thinking "I wonder what this
looks like from a non rider pov?"

Being part of a large group may be empowering for some but for me it's
just uncomfortable, limiting, dangerous.

I can see six riders or less but huge groups are too much like camp.

If you want to feel like part of a large group, you could go to Times Square
on New Years.

Just my opinion, I'm not dissing the big group thing, I just don't like the vibe.

VF

[rugbysecondrow]

If you can't win a race you might as well win a B training ride.

I have always found the "practice superstar" to be funny. That guy who is a serious ass kicker and uber intense when training or practicing, but doesn't show up for game day. Just makes me chuckle.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

the best rides are solo...

Can't agree more.

[InspectorGadget]

Inspector...I am sorry...but, seriously, you learned via mentorship:

"To take your cycling shorts off immediately after a ride." ?Yes, her name was Christine.

[TTigg]

We were discussing this the other day in our group (Facebook page) so very true!

[DHallerman]

Agree with EDS - the SIG program is pretty great. Not that it's not sometimes pedantic, but the graduates generally can ride pretty sensibly in groups. At the very least, they don't overlap wheels and they don't throw their bike backwards 12" to stand up. And people really take feedback well in that setting because it's defined as a specific series of "learning rides."


And my experience indicates how much difference a group ride training program can make.

I was a New York club SIG leader for 8 years, and I saw how people who went through the training series -- both leaders and learners alike -- afterwards often ride together in a very cohesive way in any group ride.

Then I moved just one county north of NYC to Westchester, which also has a pretty big bike club but no training series. Aaargh...cohesive riding is rare. And sometimes dangerous riding is far more common.

Dave, who has gotten used to rides with the Westchester club and part of that means picking out people I'm comfortable riding with and looking to avoid the unskilled and unconscious

[DHallerman]

I'm not a fan of "group" anything.
It dilutes any experience.


Not to be snarky, but The Paceline Forum is certainly a relatively large group that offers a group experience. And VF, you seem to enjoy this group -- at least for over 2,000 posts worth.

So perhaps the point is not group-experience-bad, solo-experience-good.

Perhaps instead we need to look at how any group is structured, and how the limitations of both rules and social norms can help make for good group experiences.

Dave, who says for example that if people regularly dissed each other here it would not be a good group experience but the social norms here reduce that greatly if not eliminate dissing entirely

[beeatnik]

Good post, Dave.

It's interesting that in this whole discussion no one has mentioned Google. I see a few recurring themes intersecting here. We're talking about self-selected individuals who have invested in expensive equipment and more than likely perceive themselves as fit and motivated. To generalize, they're the classic Type A personalities. Driven individuals are not impulsive individuals. Whether they're buying a vehicle, selecting a college, deciding where to have dinner, many critical decisions are now mediated by Google or related portals (yelp, angie's' list, match.com). I've lost count of the number of times a friend has mentioned doing online research when looking for a vacuum, microwave, television, etc. If people are that motivated to become informed when it comes to basic consumer decisions, once they purchase a bike, it's only part of the process to learn where and how to ride it. There are obviously a ton of resources on the web. And where in the past, a new guy would show up to large group ride after receiving an invitation from a friend or after years of watching roadies ride by on Sat mornings, now, most new riders seem to find their way to rides after going online and finding out what's available. So, it seems the article misses a critical point. New riders aren't less experienced or informed, they're just more entitled. And that only reflects our culture in general.

[dawgie]

The very first group ride I ever participated in was back in the late 1970s and left from "downtown" Stone Mountain, Ga. I was in pretty good shape back then, but more of a runner than a cyclist. I got dropped within the first 5 minutes and never saw the rest of the group again. When I got back to Stone Mountain, they had all packed up and gone. Some things never change, but some people tend to view the past with rose-colored glasses. Or perhaps the author was fortunate to start riding with a well-mannered group.

[laupsi]

what's that saying, "when in Rome..."?

lots of folks on this forum dissing the group thing, that's okay, just don't get into group rides. if you're new to the sport and want to join a group, do some research, find out who you're riding with. if the feedback you get doesn't make you happy, don't do the ride or better yet, get a map and be prepared to get unhitched.

I for one prefer the solo ride BTW.