Loose Ends from Taylor Thread: Are You Part of the Problem or Part of the Solution

[fuzzalow]

The “Anyone seen Paul Taylor lately?” thread has been locked. In that thread were comments directed at me which I am opening to this thread to respond in kind. It is to rebut poster e-RICHIE (Mr. Sachs) responses that are misstatements and obfuscations to the points made in the Taylor thread concerning shout-downs, fan boy behaviour and omerta. I want to get this out there, on the record. I stand by what I post and accept accountability for its content. Let others do the same. Let your good sense be your guide.

I saw my site visits go up last night and this morning when folks clicked through my signature. The hits went to Fuzzalow's reply to someone about something, and a post of mine was the culprit. He linked it in his text. And then folks landed on my Atmo bis page. What's not to love about this Internet thing?

As the above reply concerning my post was swept under the rug as merely “something about something”, the topic was specifically shout downs and aggressive, discourteous fan boy behaviour imposed on other members. One of Mr. Sach's advocates promptly and unwittingly showcased exactly that mode of ill mannered behaviour during the Taylor thread postings. There was no reaction from Mr. Sachs who did not comment on as to discourage or disown this mode of abhorrent, fan boy behaviour. As Mr. Sachs is the beneficiary of such rabid, zealous support it is evident he either does not discourage or is indifferent to its activity. How fan boy activity is fostered and encouraged is open to speculation. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

I have been on the road for 16 hours and before I left I asked the mods who he (Fuzzalow) was because I am not comfortable having conversations with strangers - or I should say, I'm not comfortable having this conversation with folks I don't know, or with whom I have nothing invested in or with. The original thread here was from 2010. My post was an agreement to Dave whose words I quoted in reply. That's all I remember. There's nothing I can add to these 5 pages that hasn't been written. But so what? Here -

A fan boy felt compelled to defend that 2010 post made by Mr. Sachs which was derogatory towards a client who might voice a complaint: i do agree with the two daves, but feel compelled to add this atmo -
stories often can be just that – stories. Mr Sachs is not entirely truthful in recalling “My post was an agreement to Dave whose words I quoted in reply.” in omitting a comment he felt compelled to post indicative of the lack of trust he burdens to a client by default.

There is stultifying candor in Mr. Sachs remark here in assuming the client a liar and summarily dismissing out of hand whatever issue raised by the client as “stories”. I have never read remarks of this type from any other builder whom disparages and expresses contempt for their clients with insults such as this. Granted, this comment was from 2010 and perhaps a change in attitude has occurred. This post was reread by Mr. Sachs in responding to the Taylor thread and no retraction or explanation was offered. Mr. Sachs did conveniently omit the portion of his post disparaging a client so it is unlikely he was unaware. All the same, his remark of “That's all I remember”, despite the rereading his post, retains deniability. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

I raise these topics because they are central to the core discussion about Paceline members being able to post openly and freely about their experiences, both good and bad, with frame builders. In the Taylor thread alone there have been shoutdowns, aggressive fan boy intimidations and outright lies and half truths by some individuals in maintaining falsehoods, preserving omerta, worship to cult of personality and blaming the client. All while professing there should greater openess, transparency and information flow to help a client better choose and work with a builder. The hypocrisy and duplicity exhibited by some is remarkable. We are all either clients or builders in this discussion and work collaboratively and with mutual respect to successfully bring our projects to fruition. We all share in the responsibility to make it better for both clients and builders and we all share a vested self interest for success. Unforetunately, some also speak in self interest alone and nothing more despite posturing to the contrary. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

This is somewhat Off Topic to the Taylor thread but illustrative of hubris, perhaps manipulative, in dealings with the forum. This also goes to the core of credibility and the trustworthiness of the content and motivations for Mr. Sachs, who is viewed as possessing expertise, is solicited for advice and is beholden to different ethics and incentives:“I asked the mods who he (Fuzzalow) was because I am not comfortable having conversations with strangers - or I should say, I'm not comfortable having this conversation with folks I don't know, or with whom I have nothing invested in or with.” a statement which establishes that a precondition or an agenda be availed before responding to my, or any, post.

Mr. Sachs is a web savvy individual who posts content, comments and forum participation into the anonymous internet firmament as a matter of course with scarcely any provocation or reticence. My post was not an outreach to Mr. Sachs nor was I soliciting a conversation with him. Mr. Sachs level of comfort as a prerequisite before proceeding to post his reply is irrelevant and in so having to announce this beforehand just makes for a drama queen. I do not know what Mr. Sachs “asked the mods who he (Fuzzalow) was” to the Paceline Mods, or if this ever actually occurred. I do not believe Paceline Mods would breach any Paceline member's privacy to answer the demand and inquiries made of Mr. Sachs in prying on other members. Pehaps this should be discounted as just one more figment from among the many e-RICHIE mental masturbations.

I do agree with the bluntness of the penultimate quoted remark that Mr. Sachs does enter conversations only insofar as it serves his own best interests.

[ElvisMerckx]

Let it go.

[Lionel]

jeez...

[4Rings6Stars]

Let it go.

+ 1 million

[christian]

Hey, thanks for contributing. You really make this place awesome.

[Tony T]

http://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/DeadHorse.gif

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/DeadHorse.gif

who the hell IS Paul Taylor???

[eddief]

I found out what he is doing now.

http://www.indyweek.com/artery/archives/2007/07/13/what-could-be-shocking-to-paul-taylor

who the hell IS Paul Taylor???

[oldpotatoe]

I found out what he is doing now.

http://www.indyweek.com/artery/archives/2007/07/13/what-could-be-shocking-to-paul-taylor

Well, no wonder, he's a mixed martial arts fighter--geeezzz and a dancer-cool.

[beeatnik]

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/thread-week-just-case-you-missed-32910.html

[93legendti]

The “Anyone seen Paul Taylor lately?” thread has been locked. In that thread were comments directed at me which I am opening to this thread to respond in kind. It is to rebut poster e-RICHIE (Mr. Sachs) responses that are misstatements and obfuscations to the points made in the Taylor thread concerning shout-downs, fan boy behaviour and omerta. I want to get this out there, on the record. I stand by what I post and accept accountability for its content. Let others do the same. Let your good sense be your guide.



As the above reply concerning my post was swept under the rug as merely “something about something”, the topic was specifically shout downs and aggressive, discourteous fan boy behaviour imposed on other members. One of Mr. Sach's advocates promptly and unwittingly showcased exactly that mode of ill mannered behaviour during the Taylor thread postings. There was no reaction from Mr. Sachs who did not comment on as to discourage or disown this mode of abhorrent, fan boy behaviour. As Mr. Sachs is the beneficiary of such rabid, zealous support it is evident he either does not discourage or is indifferent to its activity. How fan boy activity is fostered and encouraged is open to speculation. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.



A fan boy felt compelled to defend that 2010 post made by Mr. Sachs which was derogatory towards a client who might voice a complaint: Mr Sachs is not entirely truthful in recalling “My post was an agreement to Dave whose words I quoted in reply.” in omitting a comment he felt compelled to post indicative of the lack of trust he burdens to a client by default.

There is stultifying candor in Mr. Sachs remark here in assuming the client a liar and summarily dismissing out of hand whatever issue raised by the client as “stories”. I have never read remarks of this type from any other builder whom disparages and expresses contempt for their clients with insults such as this. Granted, this comment was from 2010 and perhaps a change in attitude has occurred. This post was reread by Mr. Sachs in responding to the Taylor thread and no retraction or explanation was offered. Mr. Sachs did conveniently omit the portion of his post disparaging a client so it is unlikely he was unaware. All the same, his remark of “That's all I remember”, despite the rereading his post, retains deniability. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

I raise these topics because they are central to the core discussion about Paceline members being able to post openly and freely about their experiences, both good and bad, with frame builders. In the Taylor thread alone there have been shoutdowns, aggressive fan boy intimidations and outright lies and half truths by some individuals in maintaining falsehoods, preserving omerta, worship to cult of personality and blaming the client. All while professing there should greater openess, transparency and information flow to help a client better choose and work with a builder. The hypocrisy and duplicity exhibited by some is remarkable. We are all either clients or builders in this discussion and work collaboratively and with mutual respect to successfully bring our projects to fruition. We all share in the responsibility to make it better for both clients and builders and we all share a vested self interest for success. Unforetunately, some also speak in self interest alone and nothing more despite posturing to the contrary. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

This is somewhat Off Topic to the Taylor thread but illustrative of hubris, perhaps manipulative, in dealings with the forum. This also goes to the core of credibility and the trustworthiness of the content and motivations for Mr. Sachs, who is viewed as possessing expertise, is solicited for advice and is beholden to different ethics and incentives: a statement which establishes that a precondition or an agenda be availed before responding to my, or any, post.

Mr. Sachs is a web savvy individual who posts content, comments and forum participation into the anonymous internet firmament as a matter of course with scarcely any provocation or reticence. My post was not an outreach to Mr. Sachs nor was I soliciting a conversation with him. Mr. Sachs level of comfort as a prerequisite before proceeding to post his reply is irrelevant and in so having to announce this beforehand just makes for a drama queen. I do not know what Mr. Sachs to the Paceline Mods, or if this ever actually occurred. I do not believe Paceline Mods would breach any Paceline member's privacy to answer the demand and inquiries made of Mr. Sachs in prying on other members. Pehaps this should be discounted as just one more figment from among the many e-RICHIE mental masturbations.

I do agree with the bluntness of the penultimate quoted remark that Mr. Sachs does enter conversations only insofar as it serves his own best interests.

On occasion other forumites have tried to distract from a valid issue by demanding preconditions (of their choosing) before others should post. I share your feelings.

The point that "stories are often just that" was a little odd. While a truism, it lent no more to the discussion than "where there's smoke, there's fire". I read the point as a knock against the OP. If not, what did it add?


Odd:
"... And for the sake of decency, please only add light, not heat, to this thread. Thanks."

[93legendti]

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/thread-week-just-case-you-missed-32910.html

Thanks for the link. Interesting to see slams against Paceline by people who come here to sell stuff...

[Vientomas]

I sure am glad I didn't open the Paul Taylor thread if this is what it was all about.

[joosttx]

Pehaps this should be discounted as just one more figment from among the many e-RICHIE mental masturbations.



www.mentalmasturbatersanonymous.org

<click it> before your internal eye goes blind.

[SamIAm]

Ritchies reply on Velocipede:

"My opinion is this - sooner or later the best plans can unravel atmo. Some handle it. Some don't. And some need a time out before they can realize there's a issue, and then realize what to do about it. I hope Paul Taylor tames his demons and comes out on top. We all have demons. Tony had them. Curt, Brent, and others had them. I have them. And we have clients, too. For as many conversations you eavesdrop on regarding folks who have a twist of fate with a certain framebuilder, it should not surprise anyone that every framebuilder has a long list of clients who turn a simple order for a bicycle into a long-winded, drawn out, I can't decide on what I want even though my name is up next in the queue ordeal. We all have clients who go missing, who don't reply to specific questions, who don't acknowledge emails or missives, who want to pay us up front so their soon to be ex-spouse can't attach their money, those whose units are done and invoices sent for yet can't pay the balance due, and and and. It's nice that folks think the internet is a great place for a public hanging when one person and the one other person involved have a problem. I get it - it's 2013 and this is where the **** is slung. Just keep in mind that it always cuts both ways.

If someone has a story, tell it. Then at least we'll have one side of it."

Once again, he really thinks the customer is the problem, these builders are doing us a favor. And his band of sycophants play on.

Ask me about my frame buying experience with Rich.

[93legendti]

Ritchies reply on Velocipede:

"My opinion is this - sooner or later the best plans can unravel atmo. Some handle it. Some don't. And some need a time out before they can realize there's a issue, and then realize what to do about it. I hope Paul Taylor tames his demons and comes out on top. We all have demons. Tony had them. Curt, Brent, and others had them. I have them. And we have clients, too. For as many conversations you eavesdrop on regarding folks who have a twist of fate with a certain framebuilder, it should not surprise anyone that every framebuilder has a long list of clients who turn a simple order for a bicycle into a long-winded, drawn out, I can't decide on what I want even though my name is up next in the queue ordeal. We all have clients who go missing, who don't reply to specific questions, who don't acknowledge emails or missives, who want to pay us up front so their soon to be ex-spouse can't attach their money, those whose units are done and invoices sent for yet can't pay the balance due, and and and. It's nice that folks think the internet is a great place for a public hanging when one person and the one other person involved have a problem. I get it - it's 2013 and this is where the **** is slung. Just keep in mind that it always cuts both ways.

If someone has a story, tell it. Then at least we'll have one side of it."

Once again, he really thinks the customer is the problem, these builders are doing us a favor.

Ask me about my frame buying experience with Rich.

Very odd for him to be so kind to Mr. Taylor... As if he knows the other "side" of the story. If he does, he should tell it. If he doesn't, why run interference for Mr. Taylor?

[Aaron O]

Seriously - enough. I don't think ATMO was suggesting that Taylor was somehow being unfairly treated. I don't think he was attacking the validity of the claims. It's pretty well established that he didn't deliver on numerous frames and he didn't return deposits. If it were my money and my let down I'd be FURIOUS - like the OP was, and the other victims.

ATMO's point was that everyone knows and the guy (Taylor) has already been banished to frame builder Hades. The point is made, we know he screwed up. The only thing to do at this point is to pursue criminal action or civil litigation...other than that, it's been thoroughly exposed in the land of vacuum tubes.

I know this might sound crazy, but I also feel badly for Taylor in a certain way- he had a promising career and he had talent...and he destroyed his reputation and name. To quote a fine play/film...the saddest thing is wasted potential. He probably never set out to be a thief, rather he was incompetent and didn't have the resources to meet his orders. It sounds to me like at that point he collected more money trying to deliver his backlog and fell further down the hole. I'm not excusing him - I think it rises to fraud and, were it me, I'd be harassing a federal prosecutor. I'm just saying the dude is down...he can't go further down short of litigation.

I appreciate the OP and other people sounding the warning bell; if not for people like Rugby, more likely would have fallen victim. I thought the yelp link was funny...but I also think that discussing our experience with frame builders is a perfectly valid thing to do. That said, I think the nature of a custom frame is bound to have potential conflict - there is no test ride before hand and the process is rife with possible mis-communication. Most of the time there will be two different, and subjectively valid, perspectives. It's clear that's NOT the case with Taylor. The Yelp joke rings true for me because a lot of people on Yelp make comments with no accountability for their veracity and, often, questionable credentials in making the review.

[Anarchist]

The most disturbing part of all of the babble posted by Richard Sachs was his comment that he had reached out to the admins of this place to "find out" who the OP is.

That belies a tremendous sense of entitlement and self importance, I hope his request was ignored. If not, the is a bigger problem.

[SamIAm]

The most disturbing part of all of the babble posted by Richard Sachs was his comment that he had reached out to the admins of this place to "find out" who the OP is.

That belies a tremendous sense of entitlement and self importance, I hope his request was ignored. If not, the is a bigger problem.

The powers that be still fear this man and will quickly close any thread that might perturb him. The pattern is very familiar, his sycophants begin to chime in, then Rich makes an appearance then the thread is closed shortly thereafter.

One of the most liberating moments for me personally was when I finally saw him for what he truly is and what his frame truly wasn't.

[mister]

^ hahaha

[PQJ]

Ask me about my frame buying experience with Rich.

Wow!! Do you really want people to ask or do you just want to imply it was ****ty? Or maybe you just want to get this locked down (not that it's not headed that way already).


Back on topic:

As a neutral observer who doesn't know or really care about either e-Richie or Rugby, I will say that I can't see how e-Richie's original semi-response to Rugby ~3 years ago (re "stories") was anything other than an unfair attempt to cast doubt on Rugby. And I say that as someone with a modicum of respect for the framebuilder that e-Richie is.


Taking topic to next level:

The Paul Taylor saga has reached it's next inflection point: commercialization. I'm thinking of a board game that's a cross between Clue, Risk and Monopoly. "Where in the world is Paul Taylor"?, with a twist. You get to search for him, you get to acquire bespoke frames and exact revenge on rogue effbuilders in the process of doing so (both the frame acquisitions and the underlying search for Paul), and you get to flay Paul publicly when you find him. Now I just need some graphic designers...

[Mikej]

Wait, ATMO makes bike? j/k. Running a biz is tough, but that is how it goes. The strong survive type of thing, and sometimes people get $crewed.

[BCS]

The powers that be still fear this man and will quickly close any thread that might perturb him. The pattern is very familiar, his sycophants begin to chime in, then Rich makes an appearance then the thread is closed shortly thereafter.

One of the most liberating moments for me personally was when I finally saw him for what he truly is and what his frame truly wasn't.
imperfection wasn't perfection ?

[54ny77]

"Where's the bike?"

http://ffbsccn.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/wheres-the-beef.jpg

[sc53]

The most disturbing part of all of the babble posted by Richard Sachs was his comment that he had reached out to the admins of this place to "find out" who the OP is.

That belies a tremendous sense of entitlement and self importance, I hope his request was ignored. If not, the is a bigger problem.

His request was ignored.
He does not seem to grasp that he is not in control of what other people think -- about sacred cow framebuilders or anything else -- and post on the internet. When he thinks a topic is done, the world needs must comply. "Shed light not heat" -- unless it's him and his fanboys providing the heat! Anyone who's been here for even a little while has become very familiar with how he operates and how his fan club supports him and shouts down anybody with a different opinion or sensibility about how frauds and cheats should be discussed.
I've actually met the guy in person and he was a shy, quiet, timid-seeming fellow. Kind of what you'd expect from a guy who's spent his life working alone with a torch. Obviously he compensates for his quiet reclusive existence big time with his internet persona, which he meticulously grooms, preens and bolsters every hour of every day.

[sc53]

The powers that be still fear this man and will quickly close any thread that might perturb him. The pattern is very familiar, his sycophants begin to chime in, then Rich makes an appearance then the thread is closed shortly thereafter.

One of the most liberating moments for me personally was when I finally saw him for what he truly is and what his frame truly wasn't.

Rob, you are wrong in thinking that anyone is intimidated by him or his persona. We apply the rules of the forum equally to everybody, at least we try to. The thread was closed not because it offended eRichie but because it had devolved into personal, ad hominem aspersions and attacks.

[Tony T]

Thanks for the link. Interesting to see slams against Paceline by people who come here to sell stuff...

Don't piss him off, or you'll get a lifetime ban "across the hall" :)

[SoCalSteve]

Ooops, my mistake. All is good!

[fiamme red]

who the hell IS Paul Taylor???He's the head of a dance company that practices in a building a block away from my apartment.

http://ptdc.org/

[eddief]

This youtube reminded me of Richie. Substitute Richie in place of Lola:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ1kdYIUkJI

[93legendti]

Don't piss him off, or you'll get a lifetime ban "across the hall" :)

I'll take my chances with the Feds...:)

[93legendti]

Rob, you are wrong in thinking that anyone is intimidated by him or his persona. We apply the rules of the forum equally to everybody, at least we try to. The thread was closed not because it offended eRichie but because it had devolved into personal, ad hominem aspersions and attacks.

Yes, my sense is the mods are well aware of his penchant for stirring the pot

[fiamme red]

Thanks for the link. Interesting to see slams against Paceline by people who come here to sell stuff...I love it when certain people write here, "Threads like these on Serotta/Paceline Forum are why I post only rarely now" (as if they were conferring a favor on us masses here with their enlightening posts), or write over there, "i need at least 10 sessions at the shrink for every 1 visit to that place. its painful. always." Then they come back a little while later to sell their stuff in the Classifieds here. :rolleyes:

[christian]

I love it when certain people write here, "Threads like these on Serotta/Paceline Forum are why I post only rarely now" (as if they were conferring a favor on us masses here with their enlightening posts), or write over there, "i need at least 10 sessions at the shrink for every 1 visit to that place. its painful. always." Then they come back a little while later to sell their stuff in the Classifieds here. :rolleyes:I guess I don't see the problem, nor am I surprised; threads like this increase the noise/signal ratio of the forum and detract from the pleasure of coming here. If vsalon had more traffic, I'd probably frequent it exclusively too. The ratio of intersting interesting cycling threads (to me) to off topic and noise threads is substantially better.

That said, the classifieds here are a good place to find like-minded sellers and buyers, and long-time posters can generally be trusted to be good sellers/buyers. Hey, I just listed a SON wheel if anyone needs it!

[I Want Sachs?]

Ritchies reply on Velocipede:

"My opinion is this - sooner or later the best plans can unravel atmo. Some handle it. Some don't. And some need a time out before they can realize there's a issue, and then realize what to do about it. I hope Paul Taylor tames his demons and comes out on top. We all have demons. Tony had them. Curt, Brent, and others had them. I have them. And we have clients, too. For as many conversations you eavesdrop on regarding folks who have a twist of fate with a certain framebuilder, it should not surprise anyone that every framebuilder has a long list of clients who turn a simple order for a bicycle into a long-winded, drawn out, I can't decide on what I want even though my name is up next in the queue ordeal. We all have clients who go missing, who don't reply to specific questions, who don't acknowledge emails or missives, who want to pay us up front so their soon to be ex-spouse can't attach their money, those whose units are done and invoices sent for yet can't pay the balance due, and and and. It's nice that folks think the internet is a great place for a public hanging when one person and the one other person involved have a problem. I get it - it's 2013 and this is where the **** is slung. Just keep in mind that it always cuts both ways.

If someone has a story, tell it. Then at least we'll have one side of it."

Once again, he really thinks the customer is the problem, these builders are doing us a favor. And his band of sycophants play on.

Ask me about my frame buying experience with Rich.
What happened Sam? Would love to know since I am on the fence.

[fuzzalow]

None of my comments were personal in nature – strictly business. I don't like people who play fast and loose with the facts so I put my OP out there for the record – just like I said in the first paragraph. The OP was not written to incite the fan boys, it is unlikely they read to the end of the post before posting their condemnations anyway.

Re: “stories” - short of reporters talking shop at the watering holes surrounding the Grey Lady in midtown, story is perceived as a pejorative term. “That's my story and I'm sticking to it” said the perp to the detective in the interrogation room. Don't agree? If you sit with clients then at your next meeting after they explain their business situation, ask if they are done with their story. Let me know how they react.

It is my opinion Mr. Sachs has no credibility whatsoever in a discussion about openness and transparency in the custom bike marketplace. His entire cult of personality surrounding his brand makes it antithetical to do that – he is after all, an auteur.

I was irritated by Mr. Sachs sense of import and entitlement, in threatening me by flaunting his special access to the Paceline Mods to invade my privacy. All of his stories hinting to his clout & authority are lies.

I am not receptive to fan boy proclivities and I have no dislike for those that do – unless it crosses the line to ill mannered aggression manifested upon other forum members. Here is the thing to never lose sight of: that type of herd mentality is useful only to the figurehead that drives the herd. For every other enterprise in their proximity, it smothers or drives people away. No one who is an independent thinker wants to be part of a mindless rabid cult. No one who is a mature adult wants to be told what to think & what ideas to defend or attack. No one with the intelligence to achieve earning power is susceptible to this group-think. If fan boy behaviour is unchecked and becomes integral to the editorial bent of a forum, it will destroy the economic/business viability of that forum. I believe Paceline will prosper – it has the right editorial, demographic & economic mix IMO. Other forums, perhaps nearby, will fail of their own insufferable self-preocupations.

[firerescuefin]

It's great both places exist. :)

I heard this awhile back, and though crude, it struck me as on the money.

If you don't want to start s*it....don't say s*it :no:

Lobbing grenades in here...and then playing the victim or some kind of cycling altruist is weak....atmo.

[Aaron O]

I get Sach's point and suspect folks might be reading too much into it; it's the same problem with Yelp - you get one side of a story and there is another perspective. We're all adults - we all know that some people are difficult SOBs and most of us have to figure out a way to deal with them. I'm quite sure that e-richie (and every other frame builder) has customers that have valid complaints and I'm quite sure that all of those frame builders have customer they wish they hadn't taken on. Them's the breaks. I do think that the anonymity of the internet can cause problems because it encourages undiplomatic dialogue. Would any of us be speaking like this to one another outside of the vacuum tubes? People write things for humor value - or with a "last word" mentality. I think it can lead to exaggeration.

My wife runs a business and she works her tail off to provide excellent service. She's human - sometimes her (and her people) fail. She does her best to try and fix it. Some of her customers have valid complaints about her and she has valid complaints about some of them. It's business. I've read her Yelp reviews - most are very intelligent and well meaning. Some are silly non-sense to me from people that are unreasonable. She has a very strong rating, but every review that isn't GLOWING hurts her.

It's difficult to own a business and read on line feedback that you can't reply to. If you service 100 people, you're going to have a problem or two...no one is perfect or bats 100. It's how we deal with the errors that defines us. I am very glad that I left the service industry prior to Yelp - I would hate to read about myself knowing my own SLAs were lacking.

I think there is a LOT of value in publicly discussing our experiences with frame builders; how many people did Rugby and the OP save from getting hit? Probably quite a few! I also think e-richie has a valid point - for MOST situations, keep a grain of salt. I think the Taylor case is pretty clear.

One other quick point - I'm a contracts guy...I work all day, minimum 5 days a week, reading, drafting and negotiating contracts. I'm sure that most frame builders would disagree, but I think a contract is reasonable for a builder - customer relationship. Maybe the materials to be used, or a rough time line with included mile stones or SLAs. Whatever warranty, if any. I like formalized contracts.

[93legendti]

I love it when certain people write here, "Threads like these on Serotta/Paceline Forum are why I post only rarely now" (as if they were conferring a favor on us masses here with their enlightening posts), or write over there, "i need at least 10 sessions at the shrink for every 1 visit to that place. its painful. always." Then they come back a little while later to sell their stuff in the Classifieds here. :rolleyes:

Yes, such behavior makes me leery of the seller. It's an interesting strategy. I hope it works out for them...

[LouDeeter]

Late comer to the party. In my opinion, the reference to "stories" is a take off from this quote:

"There are no truths, only stories."- Simon Ortiz

[93legendti]

I get Sach's point and suspect folks might be reading too much into it; it's the same problem with Yelp - you get one side of a story and there is another perspective. We're all adults - we all know that some people are difficult SOBs and most of us have to figure out a way to deal with them. I'm quite sure that e-richie (and every other frame builder) has customers that have valid complaints and I'm quite sure that all of those frame builders have customer they wish they hadn't taken on. Them's the breaks. I do think that the anonymity of the internet can cause problems because it encourages undiplomatic dialogue. Would any of us be speaking like this to one another outside of the vacuum tubes? People write things for humor value - or with a "last word" mentality. I think it can lead to exaggeration.

My wife runs a business and she works her tail off to provide excellent service. She's human - sometimes her (and her people) fail. She does her best to try and fix it. Some of her customers have valid complaints about her and she has valid complaints about some of them. It's business. I've read her Yelp reviews - most are very intelligent and well meaning. Some are silly non-sense to me from people that are unreasonable. She has a very strong rating, but every review that isn't GLOWING hurts her.

It's difficult to own a business and read on line feedback that you can't reply to. If you service 100 people, you're going to have a problem or two...no one is perfect or bats 100. It's how we deal with the errors that defines us. I am very glad that I left the service industry prior to Yelp - I would hate to read about myself knowing my own SLAs were lacking.

I think there is a LOT of value in publicly discussing our experiences with frame builders; how many people did Rugby and the OP save from getting hit? Probably quite a few! I also think e-richie has a valid point - for MOST situations, keep a grain of salt. I think the Taylor case is pretty clear.

One other quick point - I'm a contracts guy...I work all day, minimum 5 days a week, reading, drafting and negotiating contracts. I'm sure that most frame builders would disagree, but I think a contract is reasonable for a builder - customer relationship. Maybe the materials to be used, or a rough time line with included mile stones or SLAs. Whatever warranty, if any. I like formalized contracts.


My reply:

"My opinion is this - sooner or later the best plans

HOW DOES HE KNOW THEY WERE "BEST PLANS" AND NOT A SCAM?

can unravel atmo. Some handle it. Some don't. And some need a time out before they can realize there's a issue, and then realize what to do about it. I hope Paul Taylor

WHY NOT HOPE THE BUYER GETS HIS FRAMESET OR MONEY BACK?

tames his demons and comes out on top. We all have demons.

THEN IT'S NOT AN EXCUSE AND MERELY A DISTRACTION.

Tony had them. Curt, Brent, and others had them. I have them. And we have clients, too. For as many conversations you eavesdrop on regarding folks who have a twist of fate with a certain framebuilder, it should not surprise anyone that every framebuilder has a long list of clients who turn a simple order for a bicycle into a long-winded, drawn out, I can't decide on what I want even though my name is up next in the queue ordeal. We all have clients who go missing, who don't reply to specific questions, who don't acknowledge emails or missives, who want to pay us up front so their soon to be ex-spouse can't attach their money, those whose units are done and invoices sent for yet can't pay the balance due, and and and.

DOES ANY OF THE ABOVE JUSTIFY STEALING FUNDS???

It's nice that folks think the internet is a great place for a public hanging when one person and the one other person involved have a problem. I get it - it's 2013 and this is where the **** is slung. Just keep in mind that it always cuts both ways.

DIDN'T A CERTAIN BUILDER DO THE SAME WITH REGARD TO SRAM RED?
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2012/02/02/leap-of-faith/

If someone has a story, tell it. Then at least we'll have one side of it."

WOULD HE POST THE SAME THING IF A BUILDER BUDDY POSTED ABOUT A CUSTOMER? THE CUSTOMER IS WRONG UNTIL HE PROVES HE IS RIGHT?

[rwsaunders]

One other quick point - I'm a contracts guy...I work all day, minimum 5 days a week, reading, drafting and negotiating contracts. I'm sure that most frame builders would disagree, but I think a contract is reasonable for a builder - customer relationship. Maybe the materials to be used, or a rough time line with included mile stones or SLAs. Whatever warranty, if any. I like formalized contracts.

+1. I learned very early on in the professional services industry that a written agreement is the best tool by which parties can outline expectations, obligations and the process for resolving conflict. Two quotes from a wise old manager come to mind...

"In God we trust...in all others we require a contract."

"A verbal agreement is worth the paper that it is written on."

[54ny77]

On my way to work I typically stop by a local deli at least a few times a week for coffee. They have a sign that reads, "In God we trust.....everyone else, cash only!"

;)


"In God we trust...in all others we require a contract."

[goonster]

Ask me about my frame buying experience with Rich.
Thanks for the reminder . . .

Always wanted to ask: how was your frame buying experience with Rich?

[slidey]

I'm totally behind people like Rugby standing up and shedding light on this issue, and in general on any issue that they feel the society can benefit from shared experiences. Unfortunately, by virtue of going through a few of Richie's replies on this forum, and on VS I can conclude a couple of things for my reference:

1. Don't bother speaking to Richie whilst looking for information on any topic - obfuscation, ego, and in general a poor comprehension of grammar combine together to deliver a heady frothing of babble.

2. Richie is squarely on the side of framebuilders...so your interpretation of what RS meant by his post is not my interpretation at all.

3. Too much shortspeak, too much ego, and for all the light and heat reference, there is nothing but ego shining through his replies. That statement on yelp (is not a joke) is but one example of this. Another eg: What the flying fakk is the atmo all about.

I appreciate the OP and other people sounding the warning bell; if not for people like Rugby, more likely would have fallen victim. I thought the yelp link was funny...but I also think that discussing our experience with frame builders is a perfectly valid thing to do. That said, I think the nature of a custom frame is bound to have potential conflict - there is no test ride before hand and the process is rife with possible mis-communication. Most of the time there will be two different, and subjectively valid, perspectives. It's clear that's NOT the case with Taylor. The Yelp joke rings true for me because a lot of people on Yelp make comments with no accountability for their veracity and, often, questionable credentials in making the review.

To Richie and his fan-boys: I'm not in the least interested in a SMS-speak reply on which I have to run a NLP algorithm to understand. So spare me your justifications, and feel free to put it up on that hallowed cabal of yours that you like to call a forum.

[mister]

My reply:

"My opinion is this - sooner or later the best plans

HOW DOES HE KNOW THEY WERE "BEST PLANS" AND NOT A SCAM?

can unravel atmo. Some handle it. Some don't. And some need a time out before they can realize there's a issue, and then realize what to do about it. I hope Paul Taylor

WHY NOT HOPE THE BUYER GETS HIS FRAMESET OR MONEY BACK?

tames his demons and comes out on top. We all have demons.

THEN IT'S NOT AN EXCUSE AND MERELY A DISTRACTION.

Tony had them. Curt, Brent, and others had them. I have them. And we have clients, too. For as many conversations you eavesdrop on regarding folks who have a twist of fate with a certain framebuilder, it should not surprise anyone that every framebuilder has a long list of clients who turn a simple order for a bicycle into a long-winded, drawn out, I can't decide on what I want even though my name is up next in the queue ordeal. We all have clients who go missing, who don't reply to specific questions, who don't acknowledge emails or missives, who want to pay us up front so their soon to be ex-spouse can't attach their money, those whose units are done and invoices sent for yet can't pay the balance due, and and and.

DOES ANY OF THE ABOVE JUSTIFY STEALING FUNDS???

It's nice that folks think the internet is a great place for a public hanging when one person and the one other person involved have a problem. I get it - it's 2013 and this is where the **** is slung. Just keep in mind that it always cuts both ways.

DIDN'T A CERTAIN BUILDER DO THE SAME WITH REGARD TO SRAM RED?
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2012/02/02/leap-of-faith/

If someone has a story, tell it. Then at least we'll have one side of it."

WOULD HE POST THE SAME THING IF A BUILDER BUDDY POSTED ABOUT A CUSTOMER? THE CUSTOMER IS WRONG UNTIL HE PROVES HE IS RIGHT?

you seem to have missed the point of erichie's post (because you are quite argumentative??? idk)

[FlashUNC]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/175/315/PicardDoubleFacepalm-1.jpg?1316330080

[Black Dog]

This thread is what we need here once in a while. It is healthy, open and helps us set a path for the forum. Go to Velocipede Salon ("across the hall"...as if we are speaking of Voldemort in Harry Potter) and you will see a cadre Voldemorts and a whole gang of Death Eaters-to drag out my Potter analogy. If you dare speak outside of the pre-approved message from the party you are quickly shut down. That is what this place should never become. Roam the interwebs and you will see that we have a great thing going on here and telling people to let it go or shut up is ultimately destroys what we have. If we do not feel free to speak and discuss matters then what is the point?

[mister]

^ i have to disagree to an extent
threads get shut down here all the time

interesting topics come up but lots of members here can't seem to stay out of threads they have no interest in.
lots of noise, the feeling that 5th graders have invaded the forum, many irrelevant posts and personal attacks, locked thread.

[Tony T]

If you dare speak outside of the pre-approved message from the party you are quickly shut down.

Well, it is their "Ball", so to speak, so they can take it and "go home" whenever they want. (It is (and this is) a private forum)

[DreaminJohn]

To Richie and his fan-boys: I'm not in the least interested in a SMS-speak reply on which I have to run a NLP algorithm to understand. So spare me your justifications, and feel free to put it up on that hallowed cabal of yours that you like to call a forum.

As somewhat evidenced by my signature, I'm a fan of Richard Sachs' work but wouldn't consider myself a "fan-boy" (sic). I lurk very rarely "across the hall" and for the most part enjoy my time here.

I'm having real trouble understanding some things. Richard has as much right to express his opinion here as any of us. If I may be so bold as to distill things a bit, you seem not only to disagree with what he's saying but HOW he says it. And imho (atmo?) you absolutely have the right to disagree with anything you like. But when you or anyone else tries to shout down, get personal with, insult, or otherwise insinuate that someone's opinion isn't welcome, THEN I have a problem. The same thing happened to Grant in the original thread. Is this still residual crap when those folks decided to do their own thing?

Argue your point with your prose with as much passion as you can muster. Taking any of the aforementioned liberties diminishes your message and makes you look small.

P.S. I think the Mods need to be more strict with this crap. No warnings, just lock ***** down. Again, just ATMO.

[nahtnoj]

There are some great deals in the classifieds today.

[DreaminJohn]

There are some great deals in the classifieds today.

Why, yes there are!

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=129225


:banana:

[54ny77]

i often find myself asking, when discussing solutions for lasting peace in the middle east, "what is the best chain lube?"

[sc53]

This thread is what we need here once in a while. It is healthy, open and helps us set a path for the forum. Go to Velocipede Salon ("across the hall"...as if we are speaking of Voldemort in Harry Potter) and you will see a cadre Voldemorts and a whole gang of Death Eaters-to drag out my Potter analogy. If you dare speak outside of the pre-approved message from the party you are quickly shut down. That is what this place should never become. Roam the interwebs and you will see that we have a great thing going on here and telling people to let it go or shut up is ultimately destroys what we have. If we do not feel free to speak and discuss matters then what is the point?

Yep, that's how most of us feel. Thank you for posting.

[CNY rider]

I can't believe the seething intensity of the emotions in this thread.

[Len J]

This thread is everything wrong w this forum.
Haters, half-truths and misinterpretation.

May want to hold the mirror up and look at it.

Shakes head.

Len

[christian]

This thread is everything wrong w this forum.
Haters, half-truths and misinterpretation.

May want to hold the mirror up and look at it.

Shakes head.

Len

Yep, that's how most of us feel. Thank you for posting.

[Tom]

Wait a minute, did I read someone complaining about attempted invasion of privacy in context of their authoring something on the internet?

The use of fantasy literature to support the argument is pretty good, too.

This is good stuff, though it does make me reflect upon my own nature. It's sort of a morbid curiosity to keep checking in to see what else has been written, like when I pass a car accident on the highway and tell myself I won't be like all those others and take a look but I do anyway.

Similar to responding when I know it is stupid to do so.

[DarrenCT]

This thread is everything wrong w this forum.
Haters, half-truths and misinterpretation.

May want to hold the mirror up and look at it.

Shakes head.

Len

yup. someone end the madness. drama everywhere. even in the classifieds.

good luck.

Darren

[akelman]

Yep, that's how most of us feel. Thank you for posting.

Wait, are you actually a mod? That's a serious question, by the way.

[Louis]

Interesting how a thread about Paul Taylor becomes a thread about how people asking about Paul Taylor get shouted down, which in turn morphs into a second thread attempting to shout down the folks who allegedly shouted down the other folks. (To say nothing of the complaints about yet a third thread in an alternate universe complaining about the first thread in the original universe.) My head is about to explode.

BTW, this sort of thing can't be good for the world, regardless of what universe you happen to live in.

[FlashUNC]

Interesting how a thread about Paul Taylor becomes a thread about how people asking about Paul Taylor get shouted down, which in turn morphs into a second thread attempting to shout down the folks who allegedly shouted down the other folks. (To say nothing of the complaints about yet a third thread in an alternate universe complaining about the first thread in the original universe.) My head is about to explode.

BTW, this sort of thing can't be good for the world, regardless of what universe you happen to live in.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/009/993/tumblr_m0wb2xz9Yh1r08e3p.jpg

[Tony T]

Wait a minute, did I read someone complaining about attempted invasion of privacy in context of their authoring something on the internet?

I have...asked the mods who he (Fuzzalow) was because I am not comfortable having conversations with strangers (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1347797&postcount=183)

[weiwentg]

This thread is what we need here once in a while. It is healthy, open and helps us set a path for the forum. Go to Velocipede Salon ("across the hall"...as if we are speaking of Voldemort in Harry Potter) and you will see a cadre Voldemorts and a whole gang of Death Eaters-to drag out my Potter analogy. If you dare speak outside of the pre-approved message from the party you are quickly shut down. That is what this place should never become. Roam the interwebs and you will see that we have a great thing going on here and telling people to let it go or shut up is ultimately destroys what we have. If we do not feel free to speak and discuss matters then what is the point?

I agree with this. However, I've read through most of both threads, initially from curiosity and then from morbid fascination. It doesn't seem that this thread is actually adding any new content to the subject. I only checked because it got to 5 (!) pages. I'll stfu now.

[jr59]

The powers that be still fear this man and will quickly close any thread that might perturb him. The pattern is very familiar, his sycophants begin to chime in, then Rich makes an appearance then the thread is closed shortly thereafter.

One of the most liberating moments for me personally was when I finally saw him for what he truly is and what his frame truly wasn't.

"Where's the bike?"

http://ffbsccn.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/wheres-the-beef.jpg

I have it and it's surely not a fav of mine at all. It's pretty, but rides like a POS!

And now before all the fanboys scream and tell me how it was not made for me, please keep in mind that I bought 2 of Rob's bikes at the same time. The RS and an Ellis. The Ellis is my fav bike! Also keep in mind that I have more than a couple of others that were made for me, and they are all good, just like the Ellis best of all and the RS least of all. In fact less than least.

[Aaron O]

I hope we're not getting into some one of us has to be right thing...it honestly looks to me like you're reading into what he wrote and looking to be offended based on past history (which I'm not familiar with).

I don't think any of us know what Taylor did, or why. My GUESS is that it was a bad situation that spiraled out of control - he fell behind on orders, couldn't finance his obligations and robbed Peter to pay Paul. Does what he did rise to fraud? To me...yes...because it's the end result that matters, not the intent.

That said, I think ATMO's point is valid - small businesses can expand too quickly, or get overwhelmed. Paul Taylor is probably not an MBA...it looks to me like he fell into a hole and couldn't get out. He made it worse by not being honest about it. None of that excuses Taylor - it's just to say that he might not have started deliberately creating a fraudulent order.

I don't see anything he wrote as being the malicious attack on victims you're reading it as...I'm just seeing a guy who feels badly for Taylor because he sees how it could have happened - and who hopes he's able to fix his life.

[Aaron O]

I'm totally behind people like Rugby standing up and shedding light on this issue, and in general on any issue that they feel the society can benefit from shared experiences. Unfortunately, by virtue of going through a few of Richie's replies on this forum, and on VS I can conclude a couple of things for my reference:

1. Don't bother speaking to Richie whilst looking for information on any topic - obfuscation, ego, and in general a poor comprehension of grammar combine together to deliver a heady frothing of babble.

2. Richie is squarely on the side of framebuilders...so your interpretation of what RS meant by his post is not my interpretation at all.

3. Too much shortspeak, too much ego, and for all the light and heat reference, there is nothing but ego shining through his replies. That statement on yelp (is not a joke) is but one example of this. Another eg: What the flying fakk is the atmo all about.



To Richie and his fan-boys: I'm not in the least interested in a SMS-speak reply on which I have to run a NLP algorithm to understand. So spare me your justifications, and feel free to put it up on that hallowed cabal of yours that you like to call a forum.

Edit - you weren't lumping me or responding to my post, you were building off of it. I was wondering if what I wrote was sms speak! I try to be plain spoken.

[beeatnik]

I posted the following after Grant wrote off the Paceline.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1347122&postcount=113

"And, finally, I think there are still cats out there who haven't heard of Yelp."

In my OP, I also added a comment about the relative intelligence of Canadians. You know, kind of infantile South Park humor. I thought better about it and deleted the comment. I mentioned Yelp because businesses can have an ambivalent relationship with the site but for the most part it's a decent resource and just part of the current commercial landscape. Hey, there's even Angie's list. Somewhat to my surprise, a dismissive post by ATMO with a fake link ended up leading to a lot of conflict.

I like Yelp.

[merlincustom1]

I have it and it's surely not a fav of mine at all. It's pretty, but rides like a POS!

And now before all the fanboys scream and tell me how it was not made for me, please keep in mind that I bought 2 of Rob's bikes at the same time. The RS and an Ellis. The Ellis is my fav bike! Also keep in mind that I have more than a couple of others that were made for me, and they are all good, just like the Ellis best of all and the RS least of all. In fact less than least.

Serious question. I'm no Sachs fanboy. Why not just sell it then?

[Aaron O]

Serious question. I'm no Sachs fanboy. Why not just sell it then?

He just got it...I suspect he will.

[jr59]

Serious question. I'm no Sachs fanboy. Why not just sell it then?


To lazy to get around to it! That and I'm not going to give it away, and it looks good on the wall.

I've paid a LOT more for art work I hatted!

[merlincustom1]

There's probably some value to a collector of many of these frames made by well regarded effbuilders, maybe down the road awhile after retirement of the builder.

[Chris]

I for one am neither a part of the problem OR the solution. I think this Paul Taylor cat screwed some people over royally and I think he deserves to be outed. I like Richard and I don't see where he was trying to wield his internet persona to intimidate anyone, and if you were, then that speaks to how easily you might be intimidated by an internet persona. Finally, I think some people like to use as many big words as they can in a post.

[akelman]

I've paid a LOT more for art work I hatted!

I'm picturing your house with a Marcel Duchamp vibe.

[jr59]

I'm picturing your house with a Marcel Duchamp vibe.


nope, the ex got all of that crap....errrr....I mean fine art....errrr....no I don't, I mean crap! :cool:

To my eyes, my bikes and frames look a LOT better!

[merlincustom1]

I'm picturing your house with a Marcel Duchamp vibe.

"Your wife has been showing us her Klimpt!"

"Oh, you too?"

[akelman]

Imagine a urinal in this space. Art!

[CNY rider]

I for one am neither a part of the problem OR the solution. I think this Paul Taylor cat screwed some people over royally and I think he deserves to be outed. I like Richard and I don't see where he was trying to wield his internet persona to intimidate anyone, and if you were, then that speaks to how easily you might be intimidated by an internet persona. Finally, I think some people like to use as many big words as they can in a post.

Where's the "like" button?

[slidey]

Glad you got that. I was just about to respond to you saying the same...and yeah, you are plain spoken for sure, helps in having a civil discussion.

Edit - you weren't lumping me or responding to my post, you were building off of it. I was wondering if what I wrote was sms speak! I try to be plain spoken.

[Lionel]

Where's the "like" button?

accross the hall

[professerr]

This thread is everything wrong w this forum.
Haters, half-truths and misinterpretation.

May want to hold the mirror up and look at it.

Shakes head.

Len

I don’t know how you can speak for most of us, but I can say I don’t feel that way at all. I am glad for the way this place is moderated. It is much more a democracy of ideas, and what was said about vsalon and erichie had the ring of truth to me based on my short time on both sites. I suspect there’s great reluctance to post here where neither can control the message. In contrast, so many threads there get locked or pushed around that don’t fit the narrative -- it is like watching fox or msnbc (or an infomercial). I get why there's motivation to do so, but for me it just sours the whole custom and high end thing especially and makes me want to buy a CAAD 10 with 105.

[edward12]

I'm a regular peruser of Velocipedesalon and while I generally enjoy it, there is a culture among the forumites that it overly protective of frame builders.

Threads critical of frame builders, even those who fail spectacularly and convert thier client's funds, are quickly closed down and the critics admonished. Without any factual basis, excuses about the frame builder's poor business plan, personal circumstances, "demons," etc. are offered up to justify abject failure. Based upon my personal experience, this is not how the business world functions - which is why I find RS's statements defending failed builders confusing given his own disciplined business model and highly succesfull brand.

Frame building is a business. Frame builders have a legal obligation to produce frames for paying clients. If the framebuilder cannot build the frame, for whatever reason, the deposit should be returned. To do otherwise is a breach of contract, written or otherwise, and, quite possibly, fraud. And frame builders should understand that if they fail to satisfy thier legal obligations, then they will be castigated publically. They can defend themselves in kind. In my opinion, censoring dissatisfied customers is collusive and serves no good end.

[PaMtbRider]

Note to Richard, if you're not comfortable having conversation with strangers, stay off the internet

[Dave B]

Well I guess I am a fan boy.

I will defer to e-Richie on most things bike related. He has built frames for decades, earned his kudos, his clout etc. His life has been cycling and he has done more to help others then most will ever accomplish. To me his opinion has merit in experience. He knows the world of frame building better then anyone. I don't think he was defending Taylor. I also know if you do not want to play by his (richie's) rules on his experience he will graciously help you find another builder.

I don't always agree with what he says, but he isn't always speaking to me. He can have his opinions just as anyone can have their own. Are we all that sensitive that we have to be put out with what someone else says. If you don't like his or anyone's posts click the ignore button.

I also don't think his online persona is the limit of who he is. I have had several personal emails with him, great short conversations on a variety of things. He has given me his time, his support, and his wisdom, and all sorts of things to help me and my students out.

He has my support. Always will.

So he has ruffled some feathers, some folks don't like his strong opinions, or that people give him a large amount of respect.

Really?


To the OP. I am sorry that you felt so disrespected. I know that feeling and it can sting...a lot. I do hope you writing what you did was able to help a bit. Not everyone will agree with you and you have every right to say what you did.

Cheers

Dave

[slidey]

My post was a culmination of what I discern a culture of 'omerta' and sycophancy between the famous framebuilders and their customers. For instance, your calling for this thread to be locked down goes down as a predictable move in my books. Oh and if you want a better reason for a part of the reason for this symbiotic, yet exclusionary relationship above then look into one of my replies here on the taylor thread - (here (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1347520&postcount=159)).

Also, it is true that I have a problem with the way Richie makes his arguments...this is the internet, what else do I have to go off of? I don't form opinions on people, only on actions...but when every discussion is infiltrated with gibberish like this ATMOBISHTFUWTHHRUIMHOBRBTLDR and spoken in parables then it leads me to conclude that Richie isn't interested in having a discussion => obfuscation of thread => hence proved.


As somewhat evidenced by my signature, I'm a fan of Richard Sachs' work but wouldn't consider myself a "fan-boy" (sic). I lurk very rarely "across the hall" and for the most part enjoy my time here.

I'm having real trouble understanding some things. Richard has as much right to express his opinion here as any of us. If I may be so bold as to distill things a bit, you seem not only to disagree with what he's saying but HOW he says it. And imho (atmo?) you absolutely have the right to disagree with anything you like. But when you or anyone else tries to shout down, get personal with, insult, or otherwise insinuate that someone's opinion isn't welcome, THEN I have a problem. The same thing happened to Grant in the original thread. Is this still residual crap when those folks decided to do their own thing?

Argue your point with your prose with as much passion as you can muster. Taking any of the aforementioned liberties diminishes your message and makes you look small.

P.S. I think the Mods need to be more strict with this crap. No warnings, just lock ***** down. Again, just ATMO.

[beeatnik]

Imagine a urinal in this space. Art!

R. Mutt

[mister]

lol

when dentists and lawyers think they know art...

[nighthawk]

Imagine a urinal in this space. Art!

It's real. And it's clogged.

[Aaron O]

nope, the ex got all of that crap....errrr....I mean fine art....errrr....no I don't, I mean crap! :cool:

To my eyes, my bikes and frames look a LOT better!

:banana:

I take great pleasure in knowing that there is little that I own that my wife will have any interest in ;)

I agree with the comment about not being problem or solution...I think it's helpful when knowledgeable people share their experiences and I also like Mr. Sachs. I didn't think e-richie said anything negative about the victims of Mr. paul and I suspect that there is some internal politics stuff coloring how people read things. I think Rugby and the OP did a great job warning others.

Unlike Yelp, I would take most of the opinions expressed regularly here seriously - but I also think that in MOST cases, things are likely not black/white. Taylor is black/white. The bottom line is that something like ride quality is subjective...how do you quantify it, or argue about it? Not delivering frames isn't subjective. If a large number of people all told me builder XXX's bikes rode poorly, I'd avoid them.

I go here more than across the hall because it's more lively.

[nahtnoj]

democracy of ideas

The best argument against democracy is five minutes reading the average thread.

[54ny77]

the serotta bashing will continue until morale improves....

oh wait, wrong thread!

;)

[mister]

are there really people here that don't know what yelp is?

[DRZRM]

For instance, your calling for this thread to be locked down goes down as a predictable move in my books.

I can't believe I'm going to post in this thread...

Let me make as narrow a statement as I possibly can, because I think people get so bent out of shape they stop actually reading other people's posts.

Slidey, he did not say anything like what you are claiming. He said that everyone, including you and RS, has the right to express his (or should any women ever submit to this testosterone fueled forum again, her) opinion in threads here. He said:

I'm having real trouble understanding some things. Richard has as much right to express his opinion here as any of us. ...

And imho (atmo?) you absolutely have the right to disagree with anything you like. But when you or anyone else tries to shout down, get personal with, insult, or otherwise insinuate that someone's opinion isn't welcome, THEN I have a problem.

Argue your point with your prose with as much passion as you can muster. Taking any of the aforementioned liberties diminishes your message and makes you look small.

P.S. I think the Mods need to be more strict with this crap. No warnings, just lock ***** down. Again, just ATMO.

Seems to me that his concern fits squarely into the rules for the forum stickied at the top of the page.

But rest assured that the core philosophy will be the same: an online community where all are welcome no matter what level of cycling experience and where you can know you will find knowledge, entertainment, new friends, and civil, courteous discussion.

Beyond that...carry on.

[firerescuefin]

Al Gore....look what you've created.:no:


BTW...still like this place...even with all of it's over the top opinions...including my own on occasion.

[Keith A]

I think this one has run it's course and it's time to shut it down. Thanks for contributing...Y'all come back now ya hear :)