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FuelForThought
05-13-2013, 11:05 PM
I bought a Ritchey Break-Away frame a month ago and built it up with an old 105 group from 10 years ago. I*love* the bike. It has already been to Tuscany and O'ahu with me and took me on some epic rides that I will not forget.

The 105 group is performing fine but the wheelset is a 10 year old Ritchey Pro that should be repurposed to trainer duties. The rear hub had gritty bearings. I rebuilt it as best as I could but it does not inspire the confidence needed to carry me on a ride in the middle of nowhere. Or any ride for that matter.

I would like to build a reliable wheelset of reasonable weight. Budget was $500 but can be stretched. My weight is 165 lb.
Ideally, components should be fixable at any bike shop around the world.
The wheel needs to be compatible with Shimano 11-spd as this is what is on my other ride and I want to be able to swap wheels between bike: this new wheelset may be used as a "winter" set (quotes because we are talking California winter).

With this long winded intro, I would like to hear your thoughts on the following build:

Front:
Dura Ace 9000 hub, Sapim Race spokes, Brass Nipples, DT RR440 rim
24 spokes radial lacing *this is to help with packing: left crank arm has to fit through spokes*
Weight= 726 g.

Rear:
Dura Ace 9000, Sapim Race spokes, Brass Nipples, DT RR440 Asymmetric rim
28 spokes 3x lacing
Weight= 886 g

Total cost of components should be $650. This seems like a lot when I paid just $30 more for some blingy Fulcrum Race Zero. But I don't want to consider packing those fancy bladed Al spoked wheels into a travel case.

Ken Robb
05-13-2013, 11:19 PM
For a travel bike I would not trade durability for a small reduction in weight. I think whatever Shimano hubs will allow you to use the cogs you want should be laced to 32 hole rims of your choice--I have had perfect luck with Open Pros--butted spokes and brass nipples.

When you're on the road away from home you aren't racing but you do want to see all the sights and enjoy whatever locally famous rides are available. I would hate to miss any of these rare opportunities while I got a wheel rebuilt in a local shop that may not even be easy to find.

ryker
05-14-2013, 01:57 AM
I think your logic is sound. If you can add spokes and still accomplish the packing job, I would. In any case buy extra spokes and tape them to the inside of your travel case so you have spares on the road.

Ralph
05-14-2013, 05:57 AM
I'm a Campy guy......but my friends swear by Ultegra hubs for reliability. If they are compatible with what you're wanting to do. Would also do 32 spoke wheels for a travel bike.

gearguywb
05-14-2013, 06:47 AM
More spokes is 'mo better, BUT I know in an S&S case it can get difficult to thread the bar through the wheel on 32 spoke rims. Not impossible, but certainly more difficult.

oldpotatoe
05-14-2013, 07:00 AM
I bought a Ritchey Break-Away frame a month ago and built it up with an old 105 group from 10 years ago. I*love* the bike. It has already been to Tuscany and O'ahu with me and took me on some epic rides that I will not forget.

The 105 group is performing fine but the wheelset is a 10 year old Ritchey Pro that should be repurposed to trainer duties. The rear hub had gritty bearings. I rebuilt it as best as I could but it does not inspire the confidence needed to carry me on a ride in the middle of nowhere. Or any ride for that matter.

I would like to build a reliable wheelset of reasonable weight. Budget was $500 but can be stretched. My weight is 165 lb.
Ideally, components should be fixable at any bike shop around the world.
The wheel needs to be compatible with Shimano 11-spd as this is what is on my other ride and I want to be able to swap wheels between bike: this new wheelset may be used as a "winter" set (quotes because we are talking California winter).

With this long winded intro, I would like to hear your thoughts on the following build:

Front:
Dura Ace 9000 hub, Sapim Race spokes, Brass Nipples, DT RR440 rim
24 spokes radial lacing *this is to help with packing: left crank arm has to fit through spokes*
Weight= 726 g.

Rear:
Dura Ace 9000, Sapim Race spokes, Brass Nipples, DT RR440 Asymmetric rim
28 spokes 3x lacing
Weight= 886 g

Total cost of components should be $650. This seems like a lot when I paid just $30 more for some blingy Fulcrum Race Zero. But I don't want to consider packing those fancy bladed Al spoked wheels into a travel case.

Wow, cheap..a 9000 hubset alone is $500 plus 'normal' retail.

Sounds like a good wheelset tho-if built well., altho I would add some spokes..28 radial F if ya gotta for packing, 32h rear.

OR use ultegra hubs and stay an extra day, where ever you are.

Ginger
05-14-2013, 07:08 AM
For a travel bike I would not trade durability for a small reduction in weight. I think whatever Shimano hubs will allow you to use the cogs you want should be laced to 32 hole rims of your choice--I have had perfect luck with Open Pros--butted spokes and brass nipples.

When you're on the road away from home you aren't racing but you do want to see all the sights and enjoy whatever locally famous rides are available. I would hate to miss any of these rare opportunities while I got a wheel rebuilt in a local shop that may not even be easy to find.

Ditto. Exactly.

gone
05-14-2013, 07:53 AM
Yep: 32 spokes, ultegra hubs, open pros. Done.

572cv
05-14-2013, 08:06 AM
Not taking anything away from the thoughtful suggestions, but it does depend a bit on where you travel. I've taken multiple trips to Europe and CA on Hed Ardennes and Bastogne wheels, no issues, knock on forehead (wood equivalent). So there's a data point.

Gummee
05-14-2013, 09:02 AM
Just about every LBS worth its salt is going to have 292/294 spokes in stock. Coincidentally, they're the sizes for a 32/32 Shimano/OP wheelset.

You want fixable everywhere? Don't run off-length spokes of wonky lacing patterns.

HTH

M

carpediemracing
05-14-2013, 10:34 AM
If you choose a strong rim I wouldn't worry as much about spoke count. A strong rim makes for a strong wheel. A light but flexy/bendy rim won't be as resistant to bending as a strong rim that can hold its shape without spoke tension.

I've traveled with various wheel sets in a soft case, from normal 32H box alum clinchers to 18/24H HED Bastognes (aka Ardennes) + 18/24H HED Jet 6/9 (4 wheels in the soft case) to 16/20H Reynolds DV46 (carbon) clinchers. My weight has varied from 155 to almost 200 lbs for those travels, and I was 215 at one point on the 32H box rims.

I consider myself reasonably gentle on wheels although I do try to make very sharp efforts here and there. I rarely dent a rim, in other words, and rarely pinch flat, but I enjoy racing, accelerating hard, and hard turns.

A strong low-spoke-count rim is even somewhat rideable if you break a spoke because the spokes aren't there to make the wheel strong, they're there to keep the hub in place. I've raced on (and place with) a 15 spoke front DV46 and did a 2+ hour group ride through hills on a 19 spoke DV46. In both those instances I broke a spoke, either during the race or just as the group ride started. Both those rims (one tubular, one clincher) were plenty strong enough for me to sit on when unlaced. I wouldn't sit on the box 32H rim unlaced - it would bend.

FuelForThought
05-14-2013, 12:32 PM
Thanks for all the replies. This forum rocks. Same questions asked across the pond yielded nothing useful.
I replied to each topic below.

FuelForThought
05-14-2013, 12:34 PM
I'm a Campy guy......but my friends swear by Ultegra hubs for reliability. If they are compatible with what you're wanting to do.

use ultegra hubs and stay an extra day, where ever you are.

Yep: 32 spokes, ultegra hubs, open pros. Done.

Unfortunately, Ultegra hubs are not 11 speed compatible. Ultegra 6800 i coming soon but the hubs are likely to be the last item to be released and I'd have to wait to September most likely. Ergo Dura-Ace.

FuelForThought
05-14-2013, 12:35 PM
Not taking anything away from the thoughtful suggestions, but it does depend a bit on where you travel. I've taken multiple trips to Europe and CA on Hed Ardennes and Bastogne wheels, no issues, knock on forehead (wood equivalent). So there's a data point.

Are these 18f/24r spokes? I like this C2 rim a lot.

FuelForThought
05-14-2013, 12:40 PM
More spokes is 'mo better, BUT I know in an S&S case it can get difficult to thread the bar through the wheel on 32 spoke rims. Not impossible, but certainly more difficult.

Exactly what I was thinking. The majority suggested 32 spokes but the travel case puts some special constraints. I am worried that the handlebar or the crank arm might bend or break the spokes if things get too tight.

In any case buy extra spokes and tape them to the inside of your travel case so you have spares on the road.

That is a super idea. Will do.

FuelForThought
05-14-2013, 12:55 PM
If you choose a strong rim I wouldn't worry as much about spoke count. A strong rim makes for a strong wheel. A light but flexy/bendy rim won't be as resistant to bending as a strong rim that can hold its shape without spoke tension.

I've traveled with various wheel sets in a soft case, from normal 32H box alum clinchers to 18/24H HED Bastognes (aka Ardennes) + 18/24H HED Jet 6/9 (4 wheels in the soft case) to 16/20H Reynolds DV46 (carbon) clinchers. My weight has varied from 155 to almost 200 lbs for those travels, and I was 215 at one point on the 32H box rims.

I consider myself reasonably gentle on wheels although I do try to make very sharp efforts here and there. I rarely dent a rim, in other words, and rarely pinch flat, but I enjoy racing, accelerating hard, and hard turns.

A strong low-spoke-count rim is even somewhat rideable if you break a spoke because the spokes aren't there to make the wheel strong, they're there to keep the hub in place. I've raced on (and place with) a 15 spoke front DV46 and did a 2+ hour group ride through hills on a 19 spoke DV46. In both those instances I broke a spoke, either during the race or just as the group ride started. Both those rims (one tubular, one clincher) were plenty strong enough for me to sit on when unlaced. I wouldn't sit on the box 32H rim unlaced - it would bend.


Very interesting points. I had always heard that high spoke counts wheels were more rideable if one spoke broke. Good to hear a first hand account that common wisdom may not be correct in this case.

I had considered stronger rims like HED C2 or Kinlin XC-279 but those do not come in offset versions for the rear. While it may not have been a big deal for 10 speed, with 11 speed shimano, the flange dimensions mean that the NDS tension will drop below 60 kgf if using a symmetrical rim (DS tension set at 125 kgf). One could gain a bit of tension by using stronger spokes for the DS but I worry about the durability of such a wheel. Maybe I am just being paranoid.

killacks
05-14-2013, 01:07 PM
knock on forehead (wood equivalent).

...just thought this was a gem. I reserve the right to poach this saying :)

oldpotatoe
05-15-2013, 07:54 AM
Very interesting points. I had always heard that high spoke counts wheels were more rideable if one spoke broke. Good to hear a first hand account that common wisdom may not be correct in this case.

I had considered stronger rims like HED C2 or Kinlin XC-279 but those do not come in offset versions for the rear. While it may not have been a big deal for 10 speed, with 11 speed shimano, the flange dimensions mean that the NDS tension will drop below 60 kgf if using a symmetrical rim (DS tension set at 125 kgf). One could gain a bit of tension by using stronger spokes for the DS but I worry about the durability of such a wheel. Maybe I am just being paranoid.

Maybe. Need to remember that 'some' of us have been building reliable wheels onto non OC rims, with Campagnolo rear hubs, for years. Proper rim, enough spokes, proper spokes, proper tension..it's not that big of a deal. OC rims are a great idea BUT not that many around(Velocity, DT)

oldpotatoe
05-15-2013, 07:57 AM
Unfortunately, Ultegra hubs are not 11 speed compatible. Ultegra 6800 i coming soon but the hubs are likely to be the last item to be released and I'd have to wait to September most likely. Ergo Dura-Ace.

You have a 105 group..intend to upgrade? I'd remember that when you travel, few will have 11s shimano cogsets for a while.

DT350/240, White Ind, others are shimano 11s compatible now.

carpediemracing
05-15-2013, 09:30 AM
Very interesting points. I had always heard that high spoke counts wheels were more rideable if one spoke broke. Good to hear a first hand account that common wisdom may not be correct in this case.


I forgot to link to the video proof of the 15 spoke front wheel :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lgRKWEdG18

I should point out that since I was venturing into unknown territory I really eased back on the bike for a bit. The front end didn't feel wiggly like the wheel was going to fail but at the same time I didn't want to find out the wheel was going to collapse on the 45-50 mph descent (just before the start/finish each lap). I was hesitant to even stand on the hill. After maybe 10 minutes I started trying tentative things, standing, rocking the bike a bit, rocking the bike a bit more, etc. Soon the only thing I was worried about was how much my fork would get beat up by the flopping spoke.

I don't know 11s stuff so I don't know the offset etc. I'm on Campy 10s so it's a bit worse than Shimano 10s. I've been on the Ardennes since early 2010. I want to touch them up a bit now - my frame is very unforgiving due to the tight clearance with the 39 cm chainstays. On a 40.5 cm chainstay bike I'd leave the wheels as they are now.

FuelForThought
05-15-2013, 02:24 PM
You have a 105 group..intend to upgrade? I'd remember that when you travel, few will have 11s shimano cogsets for a while.

DT350/240, White Ind, others are shimano 11s compatible now.

I will be upgrading the bike to Ultegra 6800 at the end of the year. I also would like to use the new wheelset on the non-travel bike in the winter so 11-speed Shimano is a must.

FuelForThought
05-15-2013, 02:46 PM
Maybe. Need to remember that 'some' of us have been building reliable wheels onto non OC rims, with Campagnolo rear hubs, for years. Proper rim, enough spokes, proper spokes, proper tension..it's not that big of a deal. OC rims are a great idea BUT not that many around(Velocity, DT)

There is a reason for this bout of paranoia: see here (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/wheel-re-lacing-need-help-293550.html) for all the gory details. At less than 50% tension ratio NDS/DS and *radial* spoking on the NDS, this wheel was a disaster that did not wait long to happen.

I would be curious about your recommendations for spokes and lacing pattern if I were to go with Shimano FH-9000 and say a HED C2 (ERD 592). Hub dimensions are PCD 44 mm NDS / 45 mm DS; LCtF: 36.5mm; RCtF: 16.5mm; Spoke Hole : 2.2mm.

I was thinking Sapim Laser (2.0/1.5/2.0 mm) NDS, Sapim Race (2.0/1.8/2.0 mm) DS. 28 spokes, 3X NDS, 2xDS.
Tension ratio would be in the 50% range (47% if using identical spokes on DS and NDS). With the 3x lacing and some linseed oil on the threads, this might be enough to keep NDS spokes from going slack?

Kirk007
05-15-2013, 04:40 PM
just to be a contrarian: while I agree a good handbuilt, that you can true and replace spokes on makes mucho sense, I have been traveling for 8 years with a set of Campy protons and some spare spokes in the toolkit. Besides reliability and ride, I like that with the slightly lower spoke count it is much easier to thread handlebars etc through the larger gaps when packing the bike. Easy packing/unpacking processes reduce stress - its supposed to be fun not a chore right? I would think a good set of machine built wheels with Shimano hub could be similarly appropriate.

Now keep in mind the protons do not have hidden nipples and spoke replacement is easy. The fancier, proprietary set-ups may well not be worth the hassle in the event of a problem.

572cv
05-15-2013, 06:03 PM
Are these 18f/24r spokes? I like this C2 rim a lot.

Yes, that is the config. Not Stallion.

572cv
05-15-2013, 06:05 PM
...just thought this was a gem. I reserve the right to poach this saying :)

Thanks! Happy to share any of my questionable wisdom:)

oldpotatoe
05-15-2013, 06:05 PM
There is a reason for this bout of paranoia: see here (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/wheel-re-lacing-need-help-293550.html) for all the gory details. At less than 50% tension ratio NDS/DS and *radial* spoking on the NDS, this wheel was a disaster that did not wait long to happen.

I would be curious about your recommendations for spokes and lacing pattern if I were to go with Shimano FH-9000 and say a HED C2 (ERD 592). Hub dimensions are PCD 44 mm NDS / 45 mm DS; LCtF: 36.5mm; RCtF: 16.5mm; Spoke Hole : 2.2mm.

I was thinking Sapim Laser (2.0/1.5/2.0 mm) NDS, Sapim Race (2.0/1.8/2.0 mm) DS. 28 spokes, 3X NDS, 2xDS.
Tension ratio would be in the 50% range (47% if using identical spokes on DS and NDS). With the 3x lacing and some linseed oil on the threads, this might be enough to keep NDS spokes from going slack?

If built correctly, the NDS spokes don't go slack. As I mentioned, i have built maybe 2500 rear wheels with Campagnolo hubs..Sapim Race both sides, inside pulling, 3 cross and they will be fine...