Fear of Descending

[rounder]

I just read the thread of Wiggo's descent problems in the Giro.

Made me wonder about descending. How fast do you go when you go downhill.

I was on a ride the other day where we were going up and down big hills (for here). Uphill we were going about 3 mph, while downhill we were going up to 40. It was windy and the roads were wet from previous day's rain. I was sort of freaking out about going downhill so fast on roads I never had ridden on...was braking and skidding across the road. At one point, at about 40, the bike wobbled...which I probably induced. Anyway, don't want to have any unnecessary crashes because I want to show up to work tomorrow. On the other hand, do not want to wimp out on rides.

[akelman]

I ride as quickly or as slowly as I feel comfortable. And my comfort level is determined almost entirely by conditions and my familiarity with the road. That said, I'm never a very fast descender and sometimes I'm pretty darned slow. I've always preferred going up to going down, and that preference has only deepened as I've aged and had children.

[charliedid]

Not very...and slower than I used to.

[akelman]

Also, I, too, just read that Wiggo thread. We have a couple of former pros in our group, one of whom was very good back in the day. His ability to descend is absolutely amazing. While I have to struggle to stay relaxed at 40+ mph, he chats away, takes the wax paper off and then munches a sandwich, and casually accelerates (while still talking) to catch anyone who might be off the front. It's fun to watch and a reminder that he's playing a different game than I am.

[rice rocket]

Anyway, don't want to have any unnecessary crashes because I want to show up to work tomorrow. On the other hand, do not want to wimp out on rides.

Which is more important to you?

[henrypretz]

Descending at a speed that you are comfortable with isn't wimping out. Especially when the conditions are sketchy.
A wise, experienced cyclist gave me some tips that helped me a lot. He suggested consciously staying relaxed in the jaw, arms, and shoulders, and also looking ahead and not at the pavement right in front of you. I'm still no speed demon, but keeping those in mind help me avoid my white knuckle descents of the past.

Happy descending!
Henry

[giverdada]

i've been riding my Strong to and from work these days, and it's a bit ridiculous how awesome that thing handles. minutes have been flying off my usual commute times, i get out of bed later, and i'm turning later...like a LOT later. my first really nice road bike was a serotta ti (legend?) that got me onto this forum and onto campy and onto what i love about road bikes in general, and that thing made me a terrible 'driver'. i could turn so late into a turn that i began making a habit of it, and, to anyone nearby, it would inevitably look unplanned, accidental, and probably hazardously haphazard. sometimes things shine a little brighter on the edge...

that said, there's a lot of stuff going on in my life that's a lot more important than railing turns. two little girls. a job that i believe in. a lady to come home to. etc. etc. 40mph is great. 56 mph is great. straight roads. long run outs. dry, smooth tarmac. sweet. just need to make sure we can always come home, right?

[rounder]

Which is more important to you?

lol. They are both important,

[joosttx]

Having children has slowed my descending considerably as well as cantis.

[VTCaraco]

I was reflecting on how slow I've become on descents, too.
I got a case of speed wobbles last year that terrified me. I was slow before that, but dreadfully slow now.
Though it shocks me to type this, I prefer the uphill more, too. It's a control thing for me.
Actually, I prefer flats and rollers. And false flats in the downhill direction make me feel younger again :banana:


Side-note: I've got a buddy at work that lost his leg to cancer and started a foundation designed to get young amputees back into adventure sports of one type or another. He asked if I wanted to ride with him after work last Friday. He's a great guy and we've talked about riding for over a year, so I said yes, of course. He beat me going UP and trounced me going down a local climb. Even with the knowledge that it was a good workout despite the "loss", I quickly realized I was in a foul mood because I got beat. 12 -13 years surely contributed, but I got beat by a guy with one leg. Sheesh. Props to this guy for all that he does and stands for. Top-shelf human being from every point of view. But pride is still pride ;)

[rustychisel]

Descending at a speed that you are comfortable with isn't wimping out. Especially when the conditions are sketchy.


this.

I'm the opposite of a few on here it seems; I'm fast downhill and I like to go fast. 50mph isn't uncommon. When I've crashed (a few times, nearly all self induced) it's the confidence which takes a big knock and I have to work to overcome the nerves, knowing on the sharp descents around here it's as dangerous to be riding the brakes as it it to let the bike run. I don't push the boundaries anymore, but I like to know where the edge is.

[Louis]

Practice and push yourself a little bit each time. (but not too much) Done properly, one can descend way, way faster than putzes like us, so we have lots of room for improvement.

The more often you do something the more comfortable you become. (Unless you're doing it all wrong, and thereby messing up every time - things will horrible and you'll never feel safe.) Riding with guys who know what they're doing and are willing to provide constructive advice is also helpful. But don't just "try to keep up with the really fast guys" - that's a recipe for disaster.

[kgreene10]

I'm a crap descender. There isn't much descending around Austin, but when I raced the Mt Hamilton Classic in San Jose CA last year, I was in a sort of okay position by the top of the climb, but got passed by about 15 guys on the backside descent with 10% grades and decreasing radius turns. I made 12 year old girls on tricycles look tough that day.

Last week, I did Tour of the Gila. We got out there early and I practiced the 3+ mile descent with a handful of switchbacks before the race. I was terrible and kept running myself off the road.

A veteran racer with me sort of cocked his head to the side and pleasantly inquired what in the world I was doing. It turned out that what I was doing was amusingly stupid, but I had such brain freeze while descending I didn't even realize it: I came into every turn looking straight ahead of me and then braked while cornering. As I'm sure you all know, but I didn't seem to grasp, braking makes the bike stand up straight, pretty much foiling your ability to corner or maintain much control.

What I should have been doing: look where I want to go, not where I am, and brake in a straight line before the turn begins, release completely, and let the bike cruise around the corner. Once it clicked, it was like my descending life completely changed in an instant.

The next day was Stage 1. I was with the leaders when we hit the big descent and, armed with my new knowledge, I was completely relaxed. Granted, no one went gangbusters down it, but I was right in there. I took every corner smoothly and confidently and suddenly I was the guy passing people. It was wonderful!

I still wouldn't do this on a wet road or a road I didn't know. I love my son and my ability to chew, form sentences, and walk unaided.

[zmudshark]

I have severe acrophobia. I can not descend at speed unless it is a hill with no overlooks. It's not the speed, it's the perspective.

There are stupid little climbs in greater PHX that I will no longer do, not worth the feeling of nausea for an hour afterwards. If I even stop at the top of a descent I'm comfortable with, and look out over an absolutely non dangerous vista, I'm done. I can hardly keep my balance. I'll race you to the top, but have a car for me to ride down in.

I could bore you to tears with embarrassing stories of my fear of heights. I have been mocked by small children and old ladies with canes.

I will never mock anyone for their descending skills, not Wiggins, not even Andy Schleck, who is way more mockable.



BTW, I'm now of social security age, but have been like this as long as I can remember, even climbing trees as a kid. It has gotten worse as I get older. I don't mind flying, even in a canvas taildragger...go figure.

[DRietz]

I don't classify myself as a good descender, but just as more daring I guess. The whole, "I'm a teenager" thing.

I was awarded a speeding ticket descending Diablo last year. Never felt at risk, though - maybe it's my XC background?

[classtimesailer]

I'm more relaxed and faster without a speedometer which would tell me that I'm going too fast.

[206campyrick]

I've always been a very good descender, and i credit a few people and practice to doing it right. The first mistake most people make is to keep weight in the saddle. Weight should be on the pedals, which lowers your center of gravity. Second, as one person mentioned, you should always be looking at where you're headed, and relax! I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but if you're relaxed in the upper body, and especially in the hands, the chances of speed wobble starting are lessened. If you experience a wobble, do not brake! Level your pedals, weight on the pedals, raise your butt off the saddle slightly so weight is on the pedals and pinch the top tube with your knees. Most speed wobble is due to poor weight distribution and "white knuckling" the bars. On corners, drop the outside pedal and put full weight on it, raising the butt off the saddle slightly, and like skiing, the low center of gravity on the low pedal will help you "carve" the turn. Enough weight needs to be on the front end to maximize weight distribution. Too much weight back will act like a truck with 2 tons of gravel in the back, the bike will understeer, and cause poor handling.

[hokoman]

I used to descend pretty fast, but I crashed goofing around with my friends in the Santa Cruz mountains a long time ago and I can't shake the jitters. I don't race anymore and have no desire to be the fastest down the hill... Although if it was a race, I would be riding to the limit. I am like a light switch.. 99% off and 1% on...

[Willy]

Best advise I ever got (and it was on this forum!) - going down a hill I started to get a major wobble on my front wheel - all it took to fix It was to relax and put my two knees into the top tube - that smoothed the ride and I am no longer paranoid about going down hills.

[soulspinner]

At 56 yo I registered 52mph on a ride in the fingerlakes(15-20 percent grades). Relaxed, its amazing how natural descending gets, and tensed your like 10mph slower, too conservative in corners and layed to waste by your buds......

[oldpotatoe]

I just read the thread of Wiggo's descent problems in the Giro.

Made me wonder about descending. How fast do you go when you go downhill.

I was on a ride the other day where we were going up and down big hills (for here). Uphill we were going about 3 mph, while downhill we were going up to 40. It was windy and the roads were wet from previous day's rain. I was sort of freaking out about going downhill so fast on roads I never had ridden on...was braking and skidding across the road. At one point, at about 40, the bike wobbled...which I probably induced. Anyway, don't want to have any unnecessary crashes because I want to show up to work tomorrow. On the other hand, do not want to wimp out on rides.

Supposed to be fun, cycling, yes?

Why do something on a bicycle that you aren't comfy doing? To 'not wimp out'? So what, it really hurts to fall down.

Kick their ass going up hill..then they are 'wimping out'..anybody can go down hill.

[christian]

I used to be the guy who tested the tires on every descent... 100 kph down the east side of the Fedaia, 94 kph down the north side of Grossglockner to the zoo (pacing a K100RS the whole way).

Then I had kids. Knocked 5 mph right off the top. Now I basically don't exceed my sightlines and brakes. (Well, much...)

[laupsi]

I've always been a very good descender, and i credit a few people and practice to doing it right. The first mistake most people make is to keep weight in the saddle. Weight should be on the pedals, which lowers your center of gravity.

and herein lies the KEY to descending: as stated above, #1.) keeping your weight distribution on the pedals. to state it slightly different; keep your weight squarely on/in the bottom bracket, pushing your effort into the pedals and your weight distribution from your butt and legs into the bottom bracket. (this is not the same as simply squeezing the top tube w/your legs)

doing the above will achieve #2.) staying relaxed, quite easily, because you will have full control over your bike.

this advice was given to me by a Pro at a cycling camp in Mallorca. best advice I ever received for anything cycling related. once understood it becomes quite intuitive. :cool:

[Dan Le foot]

I ride as quickly or as slowly as I feel comfortable. And my comfort level is determined almost entirely by conditions and my familiarity with the road. That said, I'm never a very fast descender and sometimes I'm pretty darned slow. I've always preferred going up to going down, and that preference has only deepened as I've aged and had children.

Me too. Nice to have a well tuned bike that you feel confident with as well.
Dan

[FlashUNC]

Unless I'm familiar with the road and have ridden it several times before, I'm going to be the brake-dragger going down. As others have mentioned, its a safety, comfort and peace-of-mind issue.

I've also learned the hard way that hitting the deck (road rash, broken bones, rehab, etc etc) ain't worth trying to go balls out through every last corner. No one's paying me to do it and as Peter said, shouldn't this stuff be fun?

[weiwentg]

I'm a crap descender. I used to be good enough to keep up with the peloton in races. However, I had a pretty bad car v bike accident.

Since then, sadly, I simply haven't been able to either descend or corner very well. I need to practice, I guess. But it is entirely mental.

I'm still decently fast uphill, though.

[rounder]

Good advice. Thanks all!

[zap]

I'm not very good at it these day's, at least on pavement.

One too many crashes and a number of slips (wet) and resulting close calls. The crashes aren't so bad (sort of) but the potential for breaking something is what gets me.

I learned the hard way that my bones heal slowly.

Anyone notice that those metal guardrail posts of sharp corners?

[David Kirk]

I think there is something that hasn't been directly mentioned. It seems to me that there is a 3 way balance of speed, skill and comfort.

When we are kids and just learning to ride we have very little skill and therefore become very uncomfortable even when rolling along at lower speeds. Once we develop more skill we are able to go faster and still have comfort.

It seems to me that if we want to maintain a certain level of comfort that we either need to keep the speeds lower or we need to increase the skill level. I think one of the things that has changed in cycling over time is a shift from the focus of how to ride a bike well to how to make the most wattage. Both of course are important and if we only work on one of the two we will leave a lot on the table.

I remember very well riding with the older guys and having them show the younger guys how to pick a line in a corner or how to weight the bike properly to carry speed downhill or around a turn. The old guys wanted to teach and the young guys wanted to learn for the most part. The key thing here is that being able to descend well was given nearly the same importance as being able to climb well and it was understood that going downhill and around corners was not a matter or bravery but instead one of skill.

I watch a skilled rider (John Tomac, Jens Voigt, Sean Kelly, Greg LeMond....etc) go downhill and my first thought isn't that they have big balls but that they have real skill...............and that skill came with dedicated practice. The great skill they have makes it seem that they have huge balls but I'll bet they are just at the edge of their comfort level just like the average rider without real skills is when going much slower.

This is a very long way of saying that I think that these skills need to be learned and practiced and that it will make you safer, quicker, and comfortable..........and most importantly it's really fun.

Dave

[etu]

as a below average descender, i've been working on this skill for a while now. making small progress. i think it is important to not put our selves down with value judgements like "below-average" or "wimp". however i do think we deny ourselves a really enjoyable part of the bicycling experience if we just grit our teeth and get through the descent. goal really should be to descend comfortably with a sense of grace and have fun -even if it is a lot slower than others. a useful concept that i came across was the idea of letting go and being in the moment. too much thinking upstairs causes confusion in what should be instinctive. i would highly recommend Conversation with Fear by Mermer Blakslee. i came across this when i was trying to address my own psychological barrier to descending.

[etu]

I will be in Boulder overnight.
Looking forward to visiting your shop and going up and cruising down the local mountains!

[oldpotatoe]

I will be in Boulder overnight.
Looking forward to visiting your shop and going up and cruising down the local mountains!

10-4..here 10am-6pm

[redir]

Fastest for me was 63mph on a straight shot descent with no drive ways or intersecting roads. Now that road is developed so I don't bomb it any more. Cornering on descents is as was mentioned done by weighting the outside pedal and pushing down on the inside bar while pulling up on the outside bar. It makes a HUGE difference in corner control.

IF you think descending a road is scary try a classic Appalachian mountain bike trail descent O.o.

And, since you are going to go where you look you may as well look where you want to go. MTB and Cross will teach you that.

[rounder]

It is hilly where I live. I have been road riding for over 20 years, so I am used to going down hills but don't go down them as fast as I used to. What mainly bothered me was the wet roads with strong wind. When braking, the bike wanted to stand up and go straight (like kgreene said), rather than carve.

[dsb]

I LOVE descending!

But then I love doing this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/dbateman/JENNINGS06.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/dbateman/media/JENNINGS06.jpg.html)

I don't 'push'... I ride at whatever speed I feel comfortable doing...

I wrote something a while back, called Cutting Corners (http://mybloodybikeblog.com/cutting-corners/)... It's probably stuff you already know, but then, maybe not...

[norcalbiker]

The faster you go, the more it will hurt! :eek:

[Dave]

I've always been a very good descender, and i credit a few people and practice to doing it right. The first mistake most people make is to keep weight in the saddle. Weight should be on the pedals, which lowers your center of gravity. Second, as one person mentioned, you should always be looking at where you're headed, and relax! I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but if you're relaxed in the upper body, and especially in the hands, the chances of speed wobble starting are lessened. If you experience a wobble, do not brake! Level your pedals, weight on the pedals, raise your butt off the saddle slightly so weight is on the pedals and pinch the top tube with your knees. Most speed wobble is due to poor weight distribution and "white knuckling" the bars. On corners, drop the outside pedal and put full weight on it, raising the butt off the saddle slightly, and like skiing, the low center of gravity on the low pedal will help you "carve" the turn. Enough weight needs to be on the front end to maximize weight distribution. Too much weight back will act like a truck with 2 tons of gravel in the back, the bike will understeer, and cause poor handling.

Placing weight on the outside pedal does NOT lower your center of gravity. It does place more weight on the front tire, which can easily be proven with a scale.

You should always have the outside pedal down in a turn, so the inside pedal doesn't touch the ground.

Fast turns can be made without weighting the outside pedal. I never bothered to do this and never got passed on a winding Colorado mountain descent. My front/rear weight balance in the descending position is about 45/55, front/rear.

[false_Aest]

Getting spooked on a downhill is a strange + good thing: It's time to re-evaluate your skills and technique; time to fix your mistakes. It takes time to shake that hesitation.


I think I hit higher MPH on descents a few years ago but it was wasted. Now I'm "slower" but end up completing the entire run faster. Funny how that goes.


And anyone who gives a mortal **** for being slow downhill is just an asshole.

Egging someone on who's not comfortable/skilled leads to injury or worse.

[Mark McM]

Placing weight on the outside pedal does NOT lower your center of gravity. It does place more weight on the front tire, which can easily be proven with a scale.

... but only if move your body forward at the same time. Center of gravity depends only on body position, not on whether we're supporting our weight on our feet, hands or butts.

Fast turns can be made without weighting the outside pedal. I never bothered to do this and never got passed on a winding Colorado mountain descent. My front/rear weight balance in the descending position is about 45/55, front/rear.

Yes, weighting the outside pedal is not an absolute requirement (as can be seen in the photo above of dsb). The important thing is that the rider is in a stable position from which he/she can absorb road shocks and quickly respond to variations in the road surfaces. This is the primary reason to move on'es weight to one's feet - it doesn't change the center of gravity, but it does allow us to absorb shock and quickly respond to road surface variations.

[Hindmost]

“The better part of Valour, is Discretion; in the which better part, I haue saued my life”

[professerr]

Though it has been many years since I’ve done so, racing a tight crit is a great way to teach you the surprisingly high limits of your tires and the very high lean angles your bike is really capable of. You (well, certainly not I) won’t hit those limits on a descent down an open, unswept public road, but knowing where they are will give you great confidence that you’re operating inside the performance envelope of the bike.

Obviously,not the main reason to race a crit, but an added plus. And if you've never raced before, you'll feel awesome taking corners faster than you thought possible.

[Polyglot]

Maximum speed is definitely a function of age. Here a few photos from the 80's as I descended Mount Seymour in Vancouver. In the one photo you can make out the speedometer of my boss' car, it read just a tad over 80 km/h. I was going about the same speed in the photo with both arms behind my back (I was attempting to get a more aerodynamic position.) BTW, no helmet, only a kamikaze headband... on a home-built frame... I truly don't think that I would dare do that anymore...

[LegendRider]

One of the best descenders I know is a former elite skier - I don't think that's a coincidence.

Blasting down a paved road on two wheels can be scary, but downhill skiing at race speeds seems positively horrifying.

[rugbysecondrow]

What is my ability to respond to unknown variables? Car pulling out of a driveway, pot hole, deer, road debris or branch etc, can I ride safely enough to manage myself as these variables arise? That is how I descend. Live to ride another mile. I have never felt like a wimp on a bike.

[oldpotatoe]

I will be in Boulder overnight.
Looking forward to visiting your shop and going up and cruising down the local mountains!

Great to talk to you and hope you have a great ride today..that ride to ward will be beautiful( Or jamestown, if you go that way).