Short list for Titanium builders

[rob137]

I am interested in having a custom titanium frame built and am looking for a short list of builders for consideration.

Your imput is appreciated.

[gasman]

Spectrum
Serotta
Moots

[itsalldark]

Serotta
Seven

[Gothard]

Bill Holand,
Spectrum,
Dean.

[Louis]

http://www.strongframes.com/

If you're looking for something from a small shop, then Carl Strong has to be very near the top of the list. I've never ridden one of his bikes, (which get rave reviews) but I can say that he is a super, super guy, and I think many of this forum can confirm that.

Louis

[rnhood]

Cost no object: Moots

Bargain buster: Dean

[Steve K]

Black Sheep Bikes, Fort Collins CO, http://www.blacksheepbikes.com/

[Karbon]

I was in your position till recently, and wanted something different, otherwise I would have gotten a Legend.

List of one; Paduano Racing

www.paduanoracing.com

[slowgoing]

Get a Serotta and see what everyone is raving about.

[Jeff N.]

Seven Cycles. Serotta. Moots. Spectrum. Holland. Titus. Merlin. Independent Fabrications. Carl Strong. OH! Thats right...you said SHORT list. Sorry. Jeff N.

[Blastinbob]

Serotta
Holland
Moots

[vaxn8r]

Bill Davidson

[rob137]

Wow, I did not think the list would be that long. I have some serious research to do. Would it be ridiculous to consider a steel fork for a titanium bicycle?

[MRB]

My vote goes to Carl Strong. He is an experienced racer and talented framebuiler.

- J

[sevencyclist]

For mountain bike, I would go with Seven.

For road bike, I would go with Serotta, Spectrum, or Strong.

[Blastinbob]

Would it be ridiculous to consider a steel fork for a titanium bicycle?

YES!

[Brian Smith]

Wow, I did not think the list would be that long. I have some serious research to do. Would it be ridiculous to consider a steel fork for a titanium bicycle?

not at all.

[columbusslx]

No brainer...look at the upper left of your screen. All the others are nice and well built but the Serotta will be better looking and what else matters? Steel fork...why not? Be different. You may run into issues with most steel forks being 1" and most Ti bikes being 1 1/8" but I think some builders have that solved.

[EPOJoe]

Would it be ridiculous to consider a steel fork for a titanium bicycle?
Here's what I'm throwing on my Legend if my F1 ever gives out:
http://www.sibexsports.com/forks.htm

[rspecker]

From ancient Greek theology/mythology: the "Furies" were old goddesses associated with the reign of Uranus, pre-Zeus, equated with vengeance. The Furies's job was to hound out of any community a perpetrator of the three great sins: a) blasphemy, b) treachery to a host or guest, c) shedding of kindred blood.

The core of Serotta's business is making custom titanium bicycles and they host this site linked directly to their home page. I understand the value of posting educated comparisons. But simple endorsements of other products with no critical or educational content, to me, crosses the line. No one is saying you can't. But not everything you can do you should do.

[IXXI]

Serotta, fer sure fer sure.

And just to be dif't, ever heard of Jones? http://www.jonesbikes.com/

[DRZRM]

But he only asked for a list of builders to compare. I figure put them all out there and most people (with deep enough pockets) will pick the Serotta anyway, at least if they have a chance to test ride 'em.

I ride a Ti Legend road, and the reason I bought it in the first place, oh so long ago, was that of all the ti frames I tested, it rode most like the steel frame I was replacing (a Pinarello SLX). The other ti frames felt too mushy (I'm a pretty big guy). You will not go wrong with Serotta on the road.

For mountain, I think the Moots YBB is the best frame I've ever been on (though I still miss my steel Fat Chance). Frankly, on trails I'm much more forgiving of ti's flexibility. There is a reason why so many other companies paid to license that rear end technology.

Both companies make custom frames. That's about as long as my list needs to be (though I would not throw a Seven out of bed for eating crackers, or bananas :banana: :banana: )

Good luck.

[The Spider]

1. Moots
2. mOOts
3. MooTs

Whenever I see a bike from either of these builders they look great and the riders are very pleased.

It is a short list.

Spider

[Needs Help]

Serotta!

Lifetime guarantee on all frames and forks. Incredible customer service from Serotta headquarters.

[nicrump]

Darren Crisp http://www.crisptitanium.com/

[quattro]

I have owned a Serotta Legend Ti, while it is a wonderful bike and the build was fantastic, I felt it was over built for my 160 lbs. I now ride an Independent Fabrication Crown Jewel Ti and feel it is every bit as good as a Legend. I don't mean to offend anyone on the Serotta forum, I have owned two Serotta road frames and loved them both and would certainly own another, it was just time to move on. Give IF a call, speak to Matt B. Good luck.

[znfdl]

I would go with Tom Kellog at Spectrum Cycles.

I would interview each of the builders to get an idead on their philosophy.

To see my latest Spectrum go to my Pictures, Pictures, Pictures thread.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=12852

[cinelli]

Holland
Serotta
Seven

[Idris Icabod]

Another one, very reasonably priced and so very pretty:

http://www.desalvocycles.com

[Sandy]

S erotta
E xudes
R emarkably
O utstanding
T weaked
T itanium
A dventure



Sandy

[christian]

Serotta.

Unless you're looking for a singlespeed 29er, in which case, call my buddy Matt Chester. But don't call him for anything else, because that's all he builds. He'll be happy to put a steel fork on it, though.

- Christian

[Redturbo]

I have owned a Serotta Legend Ti, while it is a wonderful bike and the build was fantastic, I felt it was over built for my 160 lbs. I now ride an Independent Fabrication Crown Jewel Ti and feel it is every bit as good as a Legend. I don't mean to offend anyone on the Serotta forum, I have owned two Serotta road frames and loved them both and would certainly own another, it was just time to move on. Give IF a call, speak to Matt B. Good luck.

I don't doubt you, but I just don't get this Legend felt over built thing I always read. :confused: I'm 5'7 140lbs and if anything the Ti feels a little soft to me. I guess thats why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream :D imho :beer: cheers

[jdoiv]

Steve Potts www.stevepottscycles.com

suprised no one has mentioned him yet...

[davids]

...my short list would include:


Serotta
Seven
Moots
Independent Fabrications

[Climb01742]

I don't doubt you, but I just don't get this Legend felt over built thing I always read. :confused: I'm 5'7 140lbs and if anything the Ti feels a little soft to me. I guess thats why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream :D imho :beer: cheers

red, i'm 5'11", 150lbs and all four legends i've test ridden over the years felt over-built to me. while my old ghisallo was a total noodle. i have an IF ti CJ that splits the difference, sorta. my first ottrott was way over-built but my second is ideal. someday i'd like to find out if a legend built for me could be ideal, too. it's all so personal and subjective. ;)

[Redturbo]

red, i'm 5'11", 150lbs and all four legends i've test ridden over the years felt over-built to me. while my old ghisallo was a total noodle. i have an IF ti CJ that splits the difference, sorta. my first ottrott was way over-built but my second is ideal. someday i'd like to find out if a legend built for me could be ideal, too. it's all so personal and subjective. ;)
Yep I agree. My legend was built for me and its a keeper. It's my weapon of choice in races above 80 miles.

[OldDog]

red, i'm 5'11", 150lbs and all four legends i've test ridden over the years felt over-built to me. while my old ghisallo was a total noodle. i have an IF ti CJ that splits the difference, sorta. my first ottrott was way over-built but my second is ideal. someday i'd like to find out if a legend built for me could be ideal, too. it's all so personal and subjective. ;)


Most all the builders mentioned here do custom, i.e. your weight and style and intended use of the bike. Test riding off the rack ti bikes may well not be indictive of what you would get made for you. Working directly with the builder would be best to assure your needs are met.

I have never purchased a new Serotta, but if/when I do, (I desire a Legend) I would travel to a well known/respected fitter/dealer who does some volume in custom Serotta's. As an example, a local dealer sent one of his shop rats to the fit school. This guy never owned a road bike, just mtn bikes. Am I expected to entrust him to fit me, knowing he never put any miles on a road bike? And shell out 4K - 5K for this frame? To be clear, this guy is no longer at the shop and I do not believe this shop ever got a formal dealership.

Moral of the post, get to know your fitter/builder before you write the check.

[Ahneida Ride]

No brainer...look at the upper left of your screen. All the others are nice and well built but the Serotta will be better looking and what else matters? Steel fork...why not? Be different. You may run into issues with most steel forks being 1" and most Ti bikes being 1 1/8" but I think some builders have that solved.

Use a CK devolution HS. Problem Solved.
I have this for my F1.

I have a Legend, Bike is Flawless. Serotta needs to be on anyone's SL.

[sg8357]

Wow, I did not think the list would be that long. I have some serious research to do. Would it be ridiculous to consider a steel fork for a titanium bicycle?

How about a ti fork ?

Sumitomo made some.
<http://www.yellowjersey.org/SUMITOMO.HTML>

Check out those Campy 1010 copy dropouts, forged fork crown etc.
A definite example of more money than sense.

If you just need "One Ring, One Cog, One God", try Matt Chester.

Scott G.
Who'd like a Concours with an AW hub.

[Steve-O]

Got a Guru Veloci'ti as I love the geometry. The bike's been great for about 7K miles now...

Guru is probably more well known for their Tri bikes but they make some very nice road frames. You don't see one on the road every day either...

http://www.gurubikes.com/

[Changster]

Steve Potts www.stevepottscycles.com

suprised no one has mentioned him yet...


Wonder if anyone has had any contact with Steve Potts lately. Tried emailing Steve couple of weeks ago and have not heard back.

[ashwinearl]

Super cheap:
Direct to Xacd in China. $600 including shipping and wire transfer fee and they will build a frame to your drawing.

Or work with a reputable middle man like Habanero or Gene Spicer at Spicercycles for $900-$1100 who buys from Xacd

Nelson Ti in California www.ntpbikes.com has the lowest prices for Custom US Ti I've seen.

I heard that Kent Erikson of Moots when out on his own recently.

jade cycles are made by TST I think which has a good reputation. their stock prices are pretty good not sure about the custom upcharge. TST won't sell frames direct to individuals.

Roark Titanium is back. They had some bad press a few years ago with recall. Their prices seem pretty high though when you can go to an individual builder for less.

Kish is the Ti teacher at UBI so you can't get much better than that.


Primus Mootry out of CO www.primusmootry.com has a welder for his Ti bikes that used to weld for Moots and Dean. I just bought a bike off his brother. Here are some pics of the welds:

http://static.flickr.com/30/67348771_cc8329189f.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/31/67348780_3f7e1ffb32.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/28/67348791_66182ca41f.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/27/67348801_49c89541e1.jpg

[97CSI]

Bought a Dean a while back and they were a real pain in the *** to deal with. Nice bikes, but poor service after the sale. Can't recommend them.

[jerk]

jerk's list of fav. titanium bikes:

1. serotta

2. serotta

3. serotta

(those 6/4 merckx/litespeeds were nice bikes too....great geometry, decent build quality, but eddy's into the lighter, stiffer nicer scandium premium tubesets for his race bikes.)

jerk

[musgravecycles]

A master-builder who gets no love is Rich Gangl out of Denver. He works only in Ti. He's a 'ell'ova racer to boot...

Iffin's I was after Ti, my search would stop at his door... or at Spectrum's...

[rob137]

Many thanks for the good information. When I posted my question, I expected to come away with 5 or so bikes to pursue, but we are at 20+ and counting.

As far as getting the right fit, I have 2 steel thorougbreds a Kirk and a Weigle. They fit me perfectly. Will the same dimensions carry over to titanium?

What do I sacrifice by choosing a steel fork?

[vaxn8r]

What do I sacrifice by choosing a steel fork?
Well, it's going to look odd IMO but that may not bother you. Secondly, I don't get why you are looking at ti if you're stuck on getting a steel fork? I think a ti frame and CF fork is the perfect match for ride quality...though I never tried ti/steel. Maybe you should just stick with steel. What are you looking for out of ti anyway?

[Kane]

Face the facts.
1. Ben Serotta runs the premier custom bicycle company in the world. Titanium, steel, carbon and carbon/ti.
2. Serotta designed and pioneered a fit system that is adaptable to many bike stores (and many brands and styles of bikes). Everyone benefits including the riders, the stores and the companies.
3. Serotta is known for being able to custom 'tune' any of there materials for the riders weight and riding style.
4. Ben's testimonial to Clay of City Cycle in S.F. is typical of the class guy that Ben has been for a long time.
5. Litespeed has pioneered many great marketing ideas for bikes and Ben has pioneered many innovations for bikes.

Steel forks on a Ti bike.
My fork was made of Columbus stainless steel by a local builder in Petaluma and frankly it rides great.

[jeffg]

1. Serotta: a custom Legend rules -- most responsive Ti bike I have ever ridden. Kelly B. knows how to design bikes. nuff' said

2. Spectrum: a personal fitting by Tom K. would make Spectrum worth considering

2. Hampsten: the folks at Hampsten will get the design right, and Moots builds a nice ti rig.

[Climb01742]

i've had the good fortune of dealing with serotta over the last few days (no, it's not yet another bike for me ;)) and it included an e-mail exchange with ben. if there is a classier guy or company in the business, i ain't seen it. ben serotta and his entire company have their hearts in exactly the right place. they are truly dedicated to what matters most in cycling. IMO, the combination of a legend and the company and people who stand behind it are unbeatable. dude (if i may) case closed. :beer:

[Fixed]

bro I had a loaner clark- kent that was super a few years. ago won a couple races on it cheers :beer:

[bluesea]

bro I had a loaner clark- kent that was super a few years. ago won a couple races on it cheers :beer:

Didn't Clark-Kent make the early Lemond ti frames?

If I wanted a ti frame it would be Serotta. Its a no brainer.

[djg]

Didn't Clark-Kent make the early Lemond ti frames?



Yep--I had one for a couple of years--rode pretty nice. The source is long gone, btw.

[davep]

What do I sacrifice by choosing a steel fork?

I have a steel fork on my custom Spectrum. I got it because I wanted eyelets for lights,rack and fender, and room for a larger tire. Tom K told me when were discussing options that a carbon fork would ride better on good and moderately bad roads, but the steel would be better on rough roads. I haven't had the opportunity to try it on rough roads yet, but I would agree with him on smooth roads - I think the ride is not as good as a good carbon fork. It also weighs considerably more than a carbon fork. So, it depends on why you want a steel fork.

BTW, I don't think it looks funny, and no one has ever commented on it. But then, most riders have never seen a steel fork :).

[vaxn8r]

I have a steel fork on my custom Spectrum. I got it because I wanted eyelets for lights,rack and fender, and room for a larger tire. Tom K told me when were discussing options that a carbon fork would ride better on good and moderately bad roads, but the steel would be better on rough roads. I haven't had the opportunity to try it on rough roads yet, but I would agree with him on smooth roads - I think the ride is not as good as a good carbon fork. It also weighs considerably more than a carbon fork. So, it depends on why you want a steel fork.

BTW, I don't think it looks funny, and no one has ever commented on it. But then, most riders have never seen a steel fork :).
I guess by "odd" I was thinking the smaller gauge steel fork blades compared to most ti tubesets being oversized. I guess I would need to see one but it seems like it would look out of proportion. Is your bike in the gallery davep?

BTW, I totally agree on steel if you're going for eyelets, fenders and maybe racks. But then I go back to the original question of why not a steel bike?

[taz-t]

Many thanks for the good information. When I posted my question, I expected to come away with 5 or so bikes to pursue, but we are at 20+ and counting.

As far as getting the right fit, I have 2 steel thorougbreds a Kirk and a Weigle. They fit me perfectly. Will the same dimensions carry over to titanium?



Hey! Is this Rob in Atlanta? (small world, huh?) Chris at Atlanta Pro Bikes carries Moots and IF. Jamie, who works there, has a new ti Crown Jewel and they sometimes have a VaMoots in stock. I think I saw a ti Legend at Bicycle Link in Buckhead the last time I was there. Can't comment on the ride - but you can get a closeup look at the build quality.

- Taz in ATL

[davep]

I guess by "odd" I was thinking the smaller gauge steel fork blades compared to most ti tubesets being oversized. I guess I would need to see one but it seems like it would look out of proportion. Is your bike in the gallery davep?

BTW, I totally agree on steel if you're going for eyelets, fenders and maybe racks. But then I go back to the original question of why not a steel bike?

I haven't had a chance to take any good pictures yet, but hopefully will soon. My bike doesn't have exceptionally large tubes, so I don't think it looks out of proportion. But for some of the very large ti tubes I would agree.

As to why not steel? I ask myself that all the time and still don't have a good answer. I guess I wanted the latest and greatest, and couldn't find the bike I wanted in carbon. But I've been thinking about getting another one in steel - but not this year.

[rob137]

Hey! Is this Rob in Atlanta? (small world, huh?) Chris at Atlanta Pro Bikes carries Moots and IF. Jamie, who works there, has a new ti Crown Jewel and they sometimes have a VaMoots in stock. I think I saw a ti Legend at Bicycle Link in Buckhead the last time I was there. Can't comment on the ride - but you can get a closeup look at the build quality.

- Taz in ATL

Yes it is. Thanks for the information, I will make plans to check those out, nothing like seeing the bike up close. When is the next vintage bicycle ride planned?

[rob137]

Well, it's going to look odd IMO but that may not bother you. Secondly, I don't get why you are looking at ti if you're stuck on getting a steel fork? I think a ti frame and CF fork is the perfect match for ride quality...though I never tried ti/steel. Maybe you should just stick with steel. What are you looking for out of ti anyway?

More speed and durability without sacrificing the comfort of steel.

[Litespeeder]

What do you expect to hear on this forum of middle aged cyclists wannabes? Of course they are going to say serotta because that's what they own. The Legend is a nice bike but at that price point there are just better frames out there. I went through this exercise of finding the best Ti frame a few years ago and MOOTS was the clear winner. The serotta legend wasn't even close. It was an ugly slow pig compared to the light, stiff and nimble MOOTS Vamoots SL 6/4 Ti frame.

But don't take our word for it. Go out and test ride them all. Try to be as objective as you possibly can and don't go into it with any preconceived notions. If you approach this objectively I can bet that the MOOTS will end up at the top of your list. The IF crown jewel will be close to the top. The problem with the legend is that it cost almost as much as the MOOTS SL and the IF but it's really not half the bike. Only in American can a mediocre frame builder jack up their prices and increase their sales based on the perception that more expensive must somehow translate to a better product. Oh well, perhaps that's what makes the USA such a great country.

:bike:

[rePhil]

"Oh well, perhaps that's what makes the USA such a great country."

What makes America great is that you can come to this site and post your comments.

[shaq-d]

What do you expect to hear on this forum of middle aged cyclists wannabes? Of course they are going to say serotta because that's what they own. The Legend is a nice bike but at that price point there are just better frames out there. I went through this exercise of finding the best Ti frame a few years ago and MOOTS was the clear winner. The serotta legend wasn't even close. It was an ugly slow pig compared to the light, stiff and nimble MOOTS Vamoots SL 6/4 Ti frame.


rude.

and nietzsche is for kids.

sd

[dave thompson]

Troll :no:

[gdw]

One of the great things about America is that we have freedom of speech. You've exercised that right and the manner in which you expressed your opinion shows us that it really isn't worth considering.

[jeffg]

I love it! Litespeeder has his jingoistic/fascisct tendencies right in his signature line!

I will also consider 28 the onset of middle age from now on (when I bought my Legend) ...

Finally, if 2.9 lbs is too heavy, then so is a Moots SL, btw. (which did not rate as well as a Legend in Tour magazine, for example). It's not like a Moots is as light or stiff as a Scott CR1

[bluesea]

http://radio.weblogs.com/0113064/images/2003/09/29/zippy.jpg

[coylifut]

Only in American can a mediocre frame builder jack up their prices and increase their sales based on the perception that more expensive must somehow translate to a better product. Oh well, perhaps that's what makes the USA such a great country.

:bike:

what you mention is certainly is not exclusive to the U S of A, but that's beside the point. I'm not middle aged, nor do I own a Serotta and I still find your comments unacceptable. Adjust your tone or go away.

[Litespeeder]

First of all let me say that my comments were directed to the poster who initiated the thread. He has asked us to give him honest advice on selecting a Ti frame. My advice to him is to be as objective as possible in his search for a Ti frame and to go into this search with an open mind without any polluted or preconceived notions about Ti frame builders. IMO that’s the best advice that we can give him. I also urged him to base his decision on test rides instead of any subjective comments that he would get on this forum or the MOOTS forum for that matter. But at least in the MOOTS forum, the riders tend to be younger and more race oriented that the weekend riders that seem to congregate on this forum.

The funny thing is that if I would have said that the legend is the best Ti frame, most of you would consider me to be a genius and enlightened. Oh well, in my book it’s better to be honest than it is to be a mouthpiece for the serotta sales team as many on this forum tend to be.


:bike: :D

[runawaybrain]

...my comments...

I am here to learn, and don't pretend to know much about anything. In fact, I always rather like it when someone takes a contrarian view, maybe because I don't feel threatened by views, and different views teach us something different. Simple but true. :)

Anyway, In your pre-edited post, you mentioned that you thought the Serotta Legend did not match the build qualities of a Moots or IF. Can you tell me specifically what you mean by this? Welds? Polish? Alignment?

Thanks.

Chris.

[davids]

...my comments were directed to the poster who initiated the thread. He has asked us to give him honest advice on selecting a Ti frame...
And this is your "honest advice"?
What do you expect to hear on this forum of middle aged cyclists wannabes? Of course they are going to say serotta because that's what they own.
Not only is this hard to accept as "honest advice" and not an ad hominem attack, it doesn't even reflect the advice that us "middle age cyclist wannabes" gave rob137 in this very thread! You're wrong on the facts.

Your first post insulted your felllow forumites. Your second post insults our intelligence.

[coylifut]

It was an ugly slow pig compared to the light, stiff and nimble MOOTS Vamoots SL 6/4 Ti frame.


:bike:

it's your tone. about once a quarter someone asks the "what ti builder" question an we end up here with you taking a cheap shot at the host. we're all friends here. if you'd like to be part of the party, great. if not, leave.

[vaxn8r]

What do you expect to hear on this forum of middle aged cyclists wannabes? Of course they are going to say serotta because that's what they own. The Legend is a nice bike but at that price point there are just better frames out there. I went through this exercise of finding the best Ti frame a few years ago and MOOTS was the clear winner. The serotta legend wasn't even close. It was an ugly slow pig compared to the light, stiff and nimble MOOTS Vamoots SL 6/4 Ti frame....



:bike:

That's not my experience at all and I actually own a Legend so I feel qualified to speak. I can honestly say it's top 1 or 2 best bikes I've ever owned and I've owned a dozen or so race bikes (some of every material) over the years. That's the thing, Serotta makes race bikes. The Legend is a race bike. I'm sure Moots makes a nice bike too though I've never ridden one, but they don't exactly have a road racing heritage. So when you say "ugly slow pig", I have to wonder if you meant the bike or the rider?

I think if anything most regulars on the forum didn't even recommend the Legend because that is such an obvious "given". Go back and read the suggestions and you'll find a ton of other suggestions. But you didn't actually read the thread did you? Naw, you saw the title and hammered out a flame as fast as you could. What I can't believe is you came back to defend it. Personally I think you owe an apology to everybody.

[shinomaster]

At my second to last Cross Crusade race there was this dorko guy at the start who had a crazy tricked-out cross bike. It was a ti Moots with carbon chorus, king headset and some nice wheels ( this was a C race!!!)....he asked us if "anyone else had a problem with their bibs giving them camel toe" I asked "in the front, or in the back".

He did beat me though....

[soulspinner]

Hey. I am middle aged. Wannabe? I was probably riding racing Cat 4 when you were born. Man what an attitude. Ill take the friendship of these old wannabes and ride my slow pig often and surprisingly well thank you. Im with Coylifut.

[1centaur]

I went through this comparison and chose a Moots over a Legend, partly because price-pull marketing does not work well for me in bicycles and I thought I'd get equal build quality at lower dollars, but I was not interested in some of the specific customization that Serotta offers on its frames and I hardly think the Moots qualifies as light or, for that matter, stiff vs. lots of other bikes. If you go on the Moots forum, the tone is very one sided. On this forum, the tone is slanted, but not so extreme as the people here are more experienced with different bikes and more experienced in life. The latter is what informs this part of the thread and is on the mark: different horses for different courses - that trolling post was wasted bandwidth for a group that was never going to agree and not well considered given the host. The original poster presumably expected the pro-Serotta slant of the responses but may have thought it interesting to see which other names came up more often as well. And as for "weekend racers," there are plenty of very serious, strong riders here who like their Serottas a lot. At the very least that makes Serotta a credible alternative in any short list discussion.

[runawaybrain]

I am here to learn, and don't pretend to know much about anything. In fact, I always rather like it when someone takes a contrarian view, maybe because I don't feel threatened by views, and different views teach us something different. Simple but true. :)

Anyway, In your pre-edited post, you mentioned that you thought the Serotta Legend did not match the build qualities of a Moots or IF. Can you tell me specifically what you mean by this? Welds? Polish? Alignment?

Thanks.

Chris.

Hmmm, this is the second time, (here's the first (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=12910) ), I've asked what seemed like a polite, legitimate question only to find the poster unable or unwilling to answer. :confused:

Guess even this forum has it's trolls. Oh well. :)

[Wayne77]

I'm always baffled when people compare a Moots with a Legend (I'm not talking about ride quality, which is very subjective, but on craftsmanship/features). A Moots Vamoots is a very nice bike, pretty welds, etc, but it does not come close to comparing to the Legend on features, custom options, and craftsmanship. The Moots is more or less straight gauged, non custom, with minimal tube manipulation. The Legend is triple butted, swaged, fully customized, etc, etc. Furthermore, the race heritage of the of the Vamoots and Vamoots SL pale in comaprison to the Legend. The Vamoots SL might be a little closer to the Legend due to its 6-4 ti, but one would still have to pay the $300-$400 upcharge for custom options.

A more suitable model to compare to the Moots (on features/craftsmanship at least) would be the non-custom, mostly straight gauged Fierte at $1895.

Litespeeder has an obvious inferiority complex that is most likely his motivation for trolling this forum. I suggest we all ignore him in the future.

[djg]

The funny thing is that if I would have said that the legend is the best Ti frame, most of you would consider me to be a genius and enlightened. Oh well, in my book it’s better to be honest than it is to be a mouthpiece for the serotta sales team as many on this forum tend to be.

:bike: :D

Look, I've been around a bit, but I haven't met that many geniuses in my life and I've never thought anybody a genius on the basis of a bike recommendation. Once in a while, I'll think someone a fool or not on the basis of bike recommendations, but that's about it. You can find your humor where you find it, but I think folks objected to several things. First off, the notion that a frame search could or should be objective seems like a bit of a stretch; and the notion that your own advice might somehow be objective while another's is not seems just ludicrous. As for different perspectives: this is a Serotta board--we've noticed--but lots of folks here ride something other than a Serotta or something as well as a Serotta, and lots of Serotta fans have balanced opinions to offer.

Second, middle-aged is what you become after a certain number of years, if you survive that number of years. Given the alternatives, I'm glad that I'm 45. There are some pretty experienced and knowledgeable folks on this board, including some pretty solid middle-aged racers. I'm a former Cat 3 mediocrity myself, but I'll get back into it one of these days when the kids are a bit bigger and I've raced and trained enough to have a sense of what I like a bike to do, both when I'm racing it and when I'm not. There are folks on this board who've forgotten more about bike racing or bike design, or both, than I'll ever know, and if you had a lick of sense you'd recognize that you could say the same.

Third, the slag on Serotta seems to me entirely unjustified. A legend need not be your favorite bike for any number of reasons. I don't own one myself. But to suggest that Ben Serotta is or was a mediocrity seems more a reflection of ignorance than a seasoned opinion. Serotta knows how to design a road racing bike. It may not be the bike you want, but to fail to recognize that there's something there just seems off to me. Moots may build a terrific bike, but they lack Serotta's track record, and however good the bikes are, many of their fans seem to fasten on attributes that have little to do with what matters to me. Fetishizing smoothy-smooth welds may be your thing, and I guess that there's nothing wrong with that, but for some of us, there's more to it than that.

There's no big secret here: folks objected to your post because you insulted them and the board they like to frequent. Instead of explaining what you liked about your ride, you focused on insulting other rides and the riders who chose them. Then you got a negative reaction. Surprised?

[d_douglas]

I agree with the above - lighten up, Litepeed guy - its just a freakin' bike! No need to insult those who use them. My guess is that if you tested a decal-free Moots and Serotta, you wouldn't be able to tell which one was which (I know I wouldn't)

I am as much to blame for getting caught up in marketing hype as anyone, but the truth is that they're both nice bikes. And following on that thought, I used to snicker when I saw someone riding a Litespeed because it was so conventional, but I now openly acknowledge that Litespeed makes damned nice bikes too.

Over and out. Let's all love one another, hey?

PS for the record - I am saving up the $$$ for a Serotta ti.
PPS I am not middle aged (hmmm - what's the 'middle aged cutoff' age?) If I stay in grad school forever, will I never get to be middle aged?

[Sandy]

It's not in the content, but in the delivery.


Sandy

[Larry]

I am interested in having a custom titanium frame built and am looking for a short list of builders for consideration.

Your imput is appreciated.

Many great frame builders. I think that you need a short list of
custom frame fitters in your area. ........more important info.

This forum is Serotta territory. Serotta
Serotta
Kirk Custom Steel Third.......and if you
insist on ti, have Dave introduce you to
his friend in Bozeman, Carl Strong.

[mike p]

Eriksen
Serotta
Moots
Spectrum

All equal in quality. Price is a different story.


Mike

[72gmc]

My list is Serotta or local--Davidson or Hampsten.

And thumbs up on the steel fork. Although Steve H. could probably talk me into one of those long reach Wound-Ups.

[DarrenCT]

i've heard richard sachs makes good titanium frames. his real work is in carbon fiber though

:banana:

[DarkStar]

Would it be ridiculous to consider a steel fork for a titanium bicycle?
No! Steel fork on my Legend.

[Wayne77]

A blast from the past. 2005? Come on, you guys can do better than that! If we're going to bring an old thread back to life it needs to be much much juicier than this :D

Even better is when old threads resurface that make you shake your head, "Why did I say that?? - I'm such an idiot!!" :rolleyes:

My favorite is one of my first threads I disagreed with "e-R-----", of all people, about the three points of contact and bb hieght - not knowing then who he was/is. Good stuff!!!

Anyone else have any good nugets of "Wisdom" they'd rather not see resurface? BTW, I don't feel guilty about hijacking this thread since it is two years old... :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

Even better is when old threads resurface that make you shake your head, "Why did I say that?? - I'm such an idiot!!" :rolleyes:

My favorite is one of my first threads I disagreed with "e-R-----", of all people, about the three points of contact and bb hieght - not knowing then who he was/is. Good stuff!!!

W----77 is relentless atmo!

[shinomaster]

i've heard richard sachs makes good titanium frames. his real work is in carbon fiber though

:banana:

Are you trying to upset the coach? :no:

[DarrenCT]

i can get back on his good side by giving him tasty pastries from the pastry shop near my place :)

[Fixed]

What do you expect to hear on this forum of middle aged cyclists wannabes? Of course they are going to say serotta because that's what they own. The Legend is a nice bike but at that price point there are just better frames out there. I went through this exercise of finding the best Ti frame a few years ago and MOOTS was the clear winner. The serotta legend wasn't even close. It was an ugly slow pig compared to the light, stiff and nimble MOOTS Vamoots SL 6/4 Ti frame.

But don't take our word for it. Go out and test ride them all. Try to be as objective as you possibly can and don't go into it with any preconceived notions. If you approach this objectively I can bet that the MOOTS will end up at the top of your list. The IF crown jewel will be close to the top. The problem with the legend is that it cost almost as much as the MOOTS SL and the IF but it's really not half the bike. Only in American can a mediocre frame builder jack up their prices and increase their sales based on the perception that more expensive must somehow translate to a better product. Oh well, perhaps that's what makes the USA such a great country.

:bike:

bro why the bad vibs for real it's 98 % rider i agree moots make a fine mt bike but the legend rides as close to a good steel race bike as you are goin to find
i don't own one but i raced on a shop bike one season and bro when i showed up on that bike i got respect from everybody that knew anything .cheers being on a serotta at a race priceless imho

[shinomaster]

Yeah I really miss that Lightspeeder.

[shinomaster]

i can get back on his good side by giving him tasty pastries from the pastry shop near my place :)

Like these?

[Fixed]

bro was that his bike that was cut in 2 ?
cheers i hope not imho

[Simon Q]

If I wasn't on a Serotta Legend, which I am and love, it would be a Baum. For anyone interested in them check out the pics of the Coretto and Cubano in the blog on their website.

[Peter P.]

"Would it be ridiculous to consider a steel fork for a titanium bicycle?"

No; it would not be ridiculous. It would show courage, class, and common sense.

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned the fact that (and correct me if I'm wrong) Serotta's first attempt at a titanium frame featured a steel fork. I believe the review in Bicycling Magazine mentioned that the reason for the choice of a steel bike was Serotta designed the main frame to feel as much like a steel frame, therefore the only choice for a fork to follow that design intention would be a steel fork.

Any weight difference between a steel fork and a carbon fork is irrelevent.

The beauty of Serotta's original titanium frame/fork offering is they painted the fork to match the decal color, red. That tie-in showed some real style.

[Larry]

What do you expect to hear on this forum of middle aged cyclists wannabes? Of course they are going to say serotta because that's what they own. The Legend is a nice bike but at that price point there are just better frames out there. I went through this exercise of finding the best Ti frame a few years ago and MOOTS was the clear winner. The serotta legend wasn't even close. It was an ugly slow pig compared to the light, stiff and nimble MOOTS Vamoots SL 6/4 Ti frame.

But don't take our word for it. Go out and test ride them all. Try to be as objective as you possibly can and don't go into it with any preconceived notions. If you approach this objectively I can bet that the MOOTS will end up at the top of your list. The IF crown jewel will be close to the top. The problem with the legend is that it cost almost as much as the MOOTS SL and the IF but it's really not half the bike. Only in American can a mediocre frame builder jack up their prices and increase their sales based on the perception that more expensive must somehow translate to a better product. Oh well, perhaps that's what makes the USA such a great country.

:bike:

Hah-hah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[michael white]

"Would it be ridiculous to consider a steel fork for a titanium bicycle?"

No; it would not be ridiculous. It would show courage, class, and common sense.

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned the fact that (and correct me if I'm wrong) Serotta's first attempt at a titanium frame featured a steel fork. I believe the review in Bicycling Magazine mentioned that the reason for the choice of a steel bike was Serotta designed the main frame to feel as much like a steel frame, therefore the only choice for a fork to follow that design intention would be a steel fork.

Any weight difference between a steel fork and a carbon fork is irrelevent.

The beauty of Serotta's original titanium frame/fork offering is they painted the fork to match the decal color, red. That tie-in showed some real style.


I wouldn't go so far as to say it shows courage and or class. I think those characteristics are only revealed in how one treats others. Nor do I think it takes much style to paint a fork. However, it's true that steel forks were once pretty common on ti bikes, like De Rosas etc, and that could still make plenty of sense for some.

[djrider]

I have been fortunate to have owned both a custom Moots and a custom Legend ST. I dont know what litespeeder is talking about. The Moots is one of my favorite bikes I have owned and I have owned 17 frames in 4 years trying to find my perfect ride, but the Legend was stiffer, handled better, and was at least as comfortable as the Moots. The Legend is as close to my perfect bike as I have come. As far as being overpriced, compare it to the others and it`s in the same ballpark when you compare triple butted tubing, and paint. I currently own a pinarello Dogma but miss the Serotta , and I just placed my order for my new Serotta.

[Fixed]

"Would it be ridiculous to consider a steel fork for a titanium bicycle?"

No; it would not be ridiculous. It would show courage, class, and common sense.

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned the fact that (and correct me if I'm wrong) Serotta's first attempt at a titanium frame featured a steel fork. I believe the review in Bicycling Magazine mentioned that the reason for the choice of a steel bike was Serotta designed the main frame to feel as much like a steel frame, therefore the only choice for a fork to follow that design intention would be a steel fork.

Any weight difference between a steel fork and a carbon fork is irrelevent.

The beauty of Serotta's original titanium frame/fork offering is they painted the fork to match the decal color, red. That tie-in showed some real style.
i think i saw one in the custom gallery once it was cool
cheers imho

[davep]

"Would it be ridiculous to consider a steel fork for a titanium bicycle?"

No; it would not be ridiculous. It would show courage, class, and common sense.



I don't know about courage or class, but I have one on my Spectrum To so I agree that it shows common sense :). It also let me get fender mounts, rack and lights mounts that were not available on a carbon fork.