STOP the insanity - bike fit and new bike prices

[Smiley]

Well Laura's post praising my fit work with her new bike purchase has made me wonder. First off Laura had NO CLUE that I am a moderator of this forum or a +7300 post member so it was nice of her to say some nice things about me.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=129056

I have been busy of late doing alot of bike fit work especially for Tri Athletes and in short making Lemonade from lemons. Bikes are costing alot of $$$ of late and its not unusual to have an athlete come see me with a +5K purchase. Some of these bike in short must be really modified to make them work and I have been lucky enough to have found the right fixes. But with the price of bikes being so high of late is it smart to fully buy a bike without a third party confirmation of fit. I just did two such fits where as they came to me, I did a custom fit for them on a virtual bike (size cycle) and then we searched the internet to find a stock frame that met their contact points or that we could make work for them. I have done this many times in the past too but it seems that folks don't mind paying my fee NOW and getting independant advice as to what fits them or paying my fee later to learn that maybe they should have searched for a better fiting machine.

I am sure some shop guys here will torch me for this post BUT the facts are facts and I am finding a nice niche in my bike fit work by working to pre-qualify a client to the proper fit. This does warrant a discussion after all,

http://www.dctriclub.org/forum/messages.cfm?tid=B1849BED-D84B-AA78-A00D66477DDCBDED&page=1

[SPOKE]

[QUOTE=Smiley;1344013] "I did a custom fit for them on a virtual bike (size cycle) and then we searched the internet to find a stock frame that met their contact points or that we could make work for them. I have done this many times in the past too but it seems that folks don't mind paying my fee NOW and getting independant advice as to what fits them or paying my fee later to learn that maybe they should have searched for a better fiting machine."

That's how I use my sizecycle.....it does make a huge difference.

[Smiley]

"That's how I use my sizecycle.....it does make a huge difference." by SPOKE

maybe we should franchise :)

your too smart and when can I expect my new Spoke Fixee frame :)

[Ahneida Ride]

Smiley did a fit on a big dude recently. Tried to get his current bike
to work for him. Smiley did his best for him and told him flat out
the frame won't work. You truly need a custom frame.

Smiley did not charge the guy.

[MattTuck]

I think this is generally a good idea if you're going to drop a significant amount of coin on a frame. Today, there are plenty of 'stock' frames that come in at more than the cost of full custom... I wouldn't order a custom frame without a good fit, and the same goes for dropping the same amount of money on a stock product.

Out of curiosity, what is the process you use for figuring out which stock frames fit a rider's numbers? is that just experience from looking at a frame geometry or is there some database that has all that info and can spit out the frames that are appropriate?

[Bruce K]

Matt;

I would think that a customer would come in saying, "I was looking at an 'XYZ Whizbang', or an "ABC GoFast', which model and size would fit me better?" or something along those lines.

Then the fitter could search the geometry fro those particular models and see which would be the best fit.

Otherwise, I would think it would take a lot of research and data base building to categorize bikes by "application", material, etc. to be able to plug in info and have a computer spit out a specific model and size.

But Smiley is right, a "pre-fit" service can save asome folks lots of aggravation and misspent cash.

BK

[Len J]

New riders looking to spend dollars are another unique problem as their fit will change so much over time.

Len


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Smiley]

I think this is generally a good idea if you're going to drop a significant amount of coin on a frame. Today, there are plenty of 'stock' frames that come in at more than the cost of full custom... I wouldn't order a custom frame without a good fit, and the same goes for dropping the same amount of money on a stock product.

Out of curiosity, what is the process you use for figuring out which stock frames fit a rider's numbers? is that just experience from looking at a frame geometry or is there some database that has all that info and can spit out the frames that are appropriate?

I have done it both ways, one as Bruce describes but my experiance tells me where to look and reduce the data base, the other is setting up the Size Cycle for that lusted after model and going that route to confirm or reject :)

[SPOKE]

New riders looking to spend dollars are another unique problem as their fit will change so much over time.

Len


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

My pal Len is correct....new riders are the toughest to fit since their position will change as they learn to support themselves on the bike.

[Len J]

My pal Len is correct....new riders are the toughest to fit since their position will change as they learn to support themselves on the bike.

Yet many of them grossly overspend on the wrong first bike.

Len

[fuzzalow]

New riders looking to spend dollars are another unique problem as their fit will change so much over time.

Len

Agree that this is almost always the case for a new rider. But I'd like to look at this from a glass half full perspective. If using services like Smiley's as a preview to sizing and buying a new frame become more common, maybe this kind of mistake will be a thing of the past - like the old straddle-the-toptube and OK yer good test. But looking back, I gotta laugh because we all did it. If we were lucky, we had somebody who said they knew about bikes to help us out. So it was like the semi-blind leading the blind.

This is a great idea and it is an innovative service to offer.

[Len J]

Agree that this is almost always the case for a new rider. But I'd like to look at this from a glass half full perspective. If using services like Smiley's as a preview to sizing and buying a new frame become more common, maybe this kind of mistake will be a thing of the past - like the old straddle-the-toptube and OK yer good test. But looking back, I gotta laugh because we all did it. If we were lucky, we had somebody who said they knew about bikes to help us out. So it was like the semi-blind leading the blind.

This is a great idea and it is an innovative service to offer.

The other benefit is the in knowledgable not getting sold on a size because that is what is in stock.

Len


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[ericssonboi]

Unfortunately like an open market, if you have the money; someone is willing to make a sale to sell you a product.

If someone walked into your store and asked for advice on what to buy, most often your minimum wage paying sales person will just probe a few questions and recommend something in their price range then send them on their way. Rarely is fit and comfort a top priority for many. For those who spend many hours in the saddle; they appreciate the comfort of a good fit and pain free ride after making many adjustments. And like many said, your riding position changes, you become more flexible, your muscle become stronger to a certain position after riding a long period of time, but this is acquired over time.

[jlwdm]

My fitter has a data base filled with bike specs and component specs and a program that finds the best fits. When I saw it in September it was not quite final. Not sure the current status.

I need a custom frame so the program only found 1 bike with a really weird stem to get to where I needed. I was just updating my fit and not looking for another bike though.

Jeff

[SPOKE]

Yet many of them grossly overspend on the wrong first bike.

Len

True dat.....

[SPOKE]

I usually get customers referred to me after they have purchased the bike....:(
Sometimes I can get them in a good position. Sometimes I have to tell them the bad news that the bike just won't work....

[danl1]

And a good fitting sesssion often has a fair amount of "coaching" in the mix. Flat-out newbies must be a real challenge, but I've witnessed certain highly-rated and well-known fitters working with a particular relatively inexperienced rider, and helping them understand what 'should be' was a big part of the experience, and definitely received by the client as a value add.

And, 90 minutes with an objective, trusted pro does things that years of advice from friends and significant others cannot. Even if they say the same things, in mostly the same way.

[rugbysecondrow]

When I was shopping for my Tri-bike two years ago, I was not wanting to go custom but also not wanting to spend a lot on something that might not work best for me. Smiley put me on the size cycle, talked through size and options, and then when I found I used bike I though would work I sent him the info. I bought a used Cyfac that works great for me.

Smiley is the real deal. He cares about those he fits and truly wants people to feel right on the bike.

[oldpotatoe]

Well Laura's post praising my fit work with her new bike purchase has made me wonder. First off Laura had NO CLUE that I am a moderator of this forum or a +7300 post member so it was nice of her to say some nice things about me.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=129056

I have been busy of late doing alot of bike fit work especially for Tri Athletes and in short making Lemonade from lemons. Bikes are costing alot of $$$ of late and its not unusual to have an athlete come see me with a +5K purchase. Some of these bike in short must be really modified to make them work and I have been lucky enough to have found the right fixes. But with the price of bikes being so high of late is it smart to fully buy a bike without a third party confirmation of fit. I just did two such fits where as they came to me, I did a custom fit for them on a virtual bike (size cycle) and then we searched the internet to find a stock frame that met their contact points or that we could make work for them. I have done this many times in the past too but it seems that folks don't mind paying my fee NOW and getting independant advice as to what fits them or paying my fee later to learn that maybe they should have searched for a better fiting machine.

I am sure some shop guys here will torch me for this post BUT the facts are facts and I am finding a nice niche in my bike fit work by working to pre-qualify a client to the proper fit. This does warrant a discussion after all,

http://www.dctriclub.org/forum/messages.cfm?tid=B1849BED-D84B-AA78-A00D66477DDCBDED&page=1

My fit guy does this all the time, the customer taking the fit sheet to one of a few shops here in the republic, and making sure the bike selected fits the person, using our fit info, often having the sales person talking to my fit guy making sure it's all gonna work.

Not everybody that comes in for a 'new bike fit', wants one of our 4 'brands', we understand that. We also understand that of the 16 or so shops here, only 3 really know how to do a good bicycle fit(us and 2 others).

[fuzzalow]

Not everybody that comes in for a 'new bike fit', wants one of our 4 'brands', we understand that. We also understand that of the 16 or so shops here, only 3 really know how to do a good bicycle fit(us and 2 others).

Exemplary and none less would be received from Vecchio's and oldpotatoe.

The scary number here is 3 outta 16 - less than a fifth of the shops know what it takes to help a customer get setup well on a bike. Sure, they all say they do, but c'mon. It is a lot to ask for a shop to teach a newbie how to position on a bike. But getting them setup right at the beginning can nudge them in the direction to get there - even if the newbie didn't know how or why they got there.

But if they are setup incorrectly, or expediently, by a shop then they are doomed.

[oldpotatoe]

Exemplary and none less would be received from Vecchio's and oldpotatoe.

The scary number here is 3 outta 16 - less than a fifth of the shops know what it takes to help a customer get setup well on a bike. Sure, they all say they do, but c'mon. It is a lot to ask for a shop to teach a newbie how to position on a bike. But getting them setup right at the beginning can nudge them in the direction to get there - even if the newbie didn't know how or why they got there.

But if they are setup incorrectly, or expediently, by a shop then they are doomed.

Yep, we see people who have purchased bicycles 'elsewhere', some really expensive ones, and can't seem to be comfy(best) or be injured as a result.

Asked if they 'did a fit' and most say..sure,he checked standover and then he watched me ride around the parking lot'..

In cycling clothes? No, in street clothes..and off to craig's list the bike goes cuz it doesn't fit.

"but it was a really good deal"...

It's time shops recognize that bike shops are competing with other leisure time activities, for new riders. If the bike doesn't fit and the shop can't make it so, they are gonna hang the bike up and go play tennis or golf.

It's sometimes hard enough to get some 'onto the street' cuz ya know, there are cars out there..they sometimes feel safer on a court or golf course, encouraged on by a crappy bicycle.

[Gummee]

Having been 'that guy' that sends out customers without fitting a bike... I always ask and have been brushed off fairly frequently. IME people are thinking like they did when they were kids and 'close enough is close enough.' Not realizing that there's a world of difference between 'close enough' and 'right.'

Quite often, I'll do a initial fitting when they buy the bike, tell em 'ride for 6mos +, and come back to do the full fit because your position will change over time.

'Course, if the bike is just a clothes hanger in the garage, fit is irrelevant.

M

[jmoore]

The money I've paid for my two professional fits has been the best money I've spent on bicycling of any sort. The fit I had done when I ordered the Bedford was invaluable because I got to bounce a lot of stuff off my fitter. I trust this guys judgement and I know everything is going to be spot on when it's finally built up.

I can see where fitting a brand new rider could be an issue, but it's better than the alternative.

[sc53]

Having been 'that guy' that sends out customers without fitting a bike... I always ask and have been brushed off fairly frequently. IME people are thinking like they did when they were kids and 'close enough is close enough.' Not realizing that there's a world of difference between 'close enough' and 'right.'

Quite often, I'll do a initial fitting when they buy the bike, tell em 'ride for 6mos +, and come back to do the full fit because your position will change over time.

'Course, if the bike is just a clothes hanger in the garage, fit is irrelevant.

M

I shop quite a bit in my LBS and now that spring has sprung overhear customers getting "fitted" on new bikes all the time. This shop was a former Serotta dealer, I bought my two Serottas there, and it recently built up my Bedford and my Black Mountain Cycles monster cross. They have a size cycle out on the floor from their days as a Serotta dealer. However, all the people I have seen getting "fitted" are just having standover checked, then raise the seat to where the leg is bent a little at 6 o'clock, then ride around outside for a minute. I know the shop can do better, and I have seen other customers on the size cycle and on their own bikes on a trainer getting measured and observed. I'm thinking that for the regular, run of the mill customer, the shop just does the typical standover fit; but if you want something more, you can get it, but you have to ask. Anyway, I had Smiley do my fit for my Bedford.

[redir]

Seems to me that fitting a new rider to a new bike is paramount. But after that I can fit myself to any bike since I know what to look for. Most bike shop fits are a joke. My guess is most bike shops have a hard enough time selling the bike and tacking on another $200 bucks for a fit would probably make customers feel like they are getting ripped off.

[tiretrax]

Yep, we see people who have purchased bicycles 'elsewhere', some really expensive ones, and can't seem to be comfy(best) or be injured as a result.

Asked if they 'did a fit' and most say..sure,he checked standover and then he watched me ride around the parking lot'..

In cycling clothes? No, in street clothes..and off to craig's list the bike goes cuz it doesn't fit.



I have never had a bike shop offer to do a fit up front, even for a fee. It's always been a matter of riding a bike and having them tell me whether looks good to them as I ride in the parking lot and/or getting my feedback after riding a few blocks. One shop did make some adjustments, including swapping a stem, once I agreed to buy the bike.

The last time I bought a bike from my LBS, I saw their fit bike and asked if I should get sized on it first. They told me they only use it when someone is getting a custom frame. IMHO, everyone should get sized on that thing first. The capital cost of owning it was sunk long ago. It might save time in the long run of getting people on a bike that fits them well (although cutting into aftermarket sales of stems and seats), and it would make the sales person appear more professional and knowledgeable.

[bobswire]

I guess I'm old school or an old fool but I can pretty much make any off the rack frame in 53-55cm sq. work very well for me. It's not brain surgery but If I was buying a custom frame then of course why not get a fit.

[rugbysecondrow]

Seems to me that fitting a new rider to a new bike is paramount. But after that I can fit myself to any bike since I know what to look for. Most bike shop fits are a joke. My guess is most bike shops have a hard enough time selling the bike and tacking on another $200 bucks for a fit would probably make customers feel like they are getting ripped off.


I could get it close, but I can't look at myself while riding or pedaling to see if I am in the right position. I liken it to a Yoga class, you can get close to the right form, but having the instructor make minor corrections makes a huge difference.

[Len J]

I have never had a bike shop offer to do a fit up front, even for a fee. It's always been a matter of riding a bike and having them tell me whether looks good to them as I ride in the parking lot and/or getting my feedback after riding a few blocks. One shop did make some adjustments, including swapping a stem, once I agreed to buy the bike.

The last time I bought a bike from my LBS, I saw their fit bike and asked if I should get sized on it first. They told me they only use it when someone is getting a custom frame. IMHO, everyone should get sized on that thing first. The capital cost of owning it was sunk long ago. It might save time in the long run of getting people on a bike that fits them well (although cutting into aftermarket sales of stems and seats), and it would make the sales person appear more professional and knowledgeable.

I've moved quite a bit. One way I judge bike shops is by watching other riders on their bikes, especially new riders, and ask them where they got fit. I've been around long enough that I can look at someone on a bike and tell pretty quickly if they have been mis-fit.

Tells me a lot about what shops to avoid. OTOH, seeing a new rider reasonably correctly fit puts that shop on my list to walk into and sense the attitude.

Riding the Monon in Indy and watching....there are way more mis-fit riders than well fit riders.

YMMV

Len

[Ahneida Ride]

We also understand that of the 16 or so shops here, only 3 really know how to do a good bicycle fit (us and 2 others).

Why do I believe that? but I do and That's scary.

But if it's it stock and they are in the store .... we have a sale.
Bike gets ridden for a month and then gets relegated to the back of the garage.

[Gummee]

So not this last weekend but the one before the DC Tri club was riding around my neck of the woods.

I've never seen a collection of badly fitting bicycles like that in my life

M

[rugbysecondrow]

So not this last weekend but the one before the DC Tri club was riding around my neck of the woods.

I've never seen a collection of badly fitting bicycles like that in my life

M

Triathletes are a different bunch. They think they know everything about everything.

[Gummee]

Triathletes are a different bunch. They think they know everything about everything.

...and wonder why they get grief from roadies...

If they'd check the attitude at the ride start, they may learn something. Judging by how badly they ride, its needed.

M

[bluesea]

Is this about how you ain't gonna change the industry at the neighborhood level?

[christian]

This is all predicated on people knowing how to fit, and yes, I'll include some fit "professionals" in that.

I think pubic bone height and the CONI manual will do as good a job for most people...

[bluesea]

^ True that, getting the right sized frame is half the costly and wasteful battle. Otoh in-shop fit these days have made monstrous strides since the '70s.

[jlwdm]

Triathletes are a different bunch. They think they know everything about everything.

They might have strange fits at times, but you have to give them credit as they have a singular focus - speed.

Jeff

[Gummee]

They might have strange fits at times, but you have to give them credit as they have a singular focus - speed.

Jeff...to the exclusion of everything else! Crappy bike handling. No idea that bikes require maint. etc.

I cringed every time a tri bike came into the shop 'cause inevitably it was covered in crap and the chain was a mess.

M

[soulspinner]

...and wonder why they get grief from roadies...

If they'd check the attitude at the ride start, they may learn something. Judging by how badly they ride, its needed.

M

Back when I worked in a shop, Id see triathletes on their tri bikes with the seat too high and every pedal stroke an adventure in keeping the bike straight.

[Ti Designs]

This is all predicated on people knowing how to fit, and yes, I'll include some fit "professionals" in that.

I'm so glad you said that, I was just going to...

I've always seen the real test of a good fitter to be

1) fitting well on their own bike and riding well. This has nothing to do with speed or strength, but if they can't make the fit work for themselves...

2) Understanding that people are different. Rules of thumb like KOPS have no place in bike fitting, and yet people still adjust setback based on KOPS and stem height based on the bar obscuring the front hub.

3) being able to produce a good rider. This is the real test. If you think that explaining how a paceline works is actually going to teach anyone how to paceline, why not bring them into a paceline ride and find out what really happens. Teaching a new rider the skills of cycling is a learning experience in the learning process - something every fitter needs. Seeing how fit on the trainer translates to fit on the road makes all the difference in the world.

How many fitters do this? There's no emphasis on real world testing in the fit schools, if anything there's emphasis on isolation between the fit studio and the real world. I've been to a few fitting schools, there was zero riding. I went to Cervelo's dealer event, they did have a morning indoor ride. I was shocked to see how poorly some of the bike shop people fit on their own bikes. It's embarrassing to be in an industry that doesn't want to see it's own results...

[bluesea]

It's embarrassing to be in an industry that doesn't want to see it's own results...


The industry at retail level sees the results they want to see, and that's moving merchandise out the door, mostly with the least investment possible.

[oldpotatoe]

...and wonder why they get grief from roadies...

If they'd check the attitude at the ride start, they may learn something. Judging by how badly they ride, its needed.

M

Remember that 'triathlon' always is about competing..most 'triathlete's' don't do these three activities for fun, not with such intensity.

Most view the 'bike' as the thing that connects the swim to the run. They aren't converted cyclists, most are either former swimmers or runners. So a lot view the 'bike' portion as a necessary 'evil' and the 'bicycle' as a big pair of shoes...buy it online, make it work, get it over with.

I don't bunch triathletes into the cycling 'bunch' any more than those at miniature golf as 'golfers'.

[redir]

The Eddy B fit which is essentially KOPS has always worked for me. I think it's probably an average over all. In fact my team was sponsored and we all went and got Serotta fits and all they did was raise my saddle from my own KOPS fit. Eventually I lowered my saddle to where it was anyway. I have no idea if Serotta fitting is good or not but point being even if a bike shop did a KOPS fit it would be better then saying, "looks good" and having a disgruntled bike customer on down the road and it takes what? like 20 minutes?

[oldpotatoe]

The Eddy B fit which is essentially KOPS has always worked for me. I think it's probably an average over all. In fact my team was sponsored and we all went and got Serotta fits and all they did was raise my saddle from my own KOPS fit. Eventually I lowered my saddle to where it was anyway. I have no idea if Serotta fitting is good or not but point being even if a bike shop did a KOPS fit it would be better then saying, "looks good" and having a disgruntled bike customer on down the road and it takes what? like 20 minutes?

KOPS is a data point, a place to start, reference..

NOTHING in bike fitting is etched in stone, nothing is a big 'C' constant.

But 'noting' KOPS during the fit process isn't a bad thing. It's not THE thing but like a lot of other data points, useful in the process.

I think it's not quite right to say KOPS has 'no place in the fit process'.

[Len J]

KOPS is a data point, a place to start, reference..

NOTHING in bike fitting is etched in stone, nothing is a big 'C' constant.

But 'noting' KOPS during the fit process isn't a bad thing. It's not THE thing but like a lot of other data points, useful in the process.

I think it's not quite right to say KOPS has 'no place in the fit process'.

I've always thought of these rules of thumb in fit as a starting point. Once you get there, you can look at balance on the bike flexibility Power etc, and adjust accordingly... you have to start somewhere.

Len

[oldpotatoe]

I've always thought of these rules of thumb in fit as a starting point. Once you get there, you can look at balance on the bike flexibility Power etc, and adjust accordingly... you have to start somewhere.

Len

10-4..altho I don't see it as a 'rule of thumb'..semantics, I know, just a place to start along with seat height, knee bend. With the understanding that everybody's legs are different lengths from one another and 'where' varies as well.

[Gummee]

KOPS is a data point, a place to start, reference..

NOTHING in bike fitting is etched in stone, nothing is a big 'C' constant.

But 'noting' KOPS during the fit process isn't a bad thing. It's not THE thing but like a lot of other data points, useful in the process.

I think it's not quite right to say KOPS has 'no place in the fit process'.
That's been my point as long as I've been discussing fits with people. You need to start with a baseline, right? May as well use something that's easy to duplicate: KOPS and stem obscuring the hub and move from there to address the individual's specific limitations/body morphology.

I'll also point out while I can look at someone riding a bike and see 'seat's too high/low,' 'bars are too close/far away,' 'there's a leg-length discrepancy,' etc within a few seconds of watching them ride, I cannot, however, see me riding. All I have to go on are my own sensations. I know I'm fairly close and I know I'm not 'perfect' on my own bike.

M

[christian]

I'll also point out while I can look at someone riding a bike and see 'seat's too high/low,' 'bars are too close/far away,' 'there's a leg-length discrepancy,' etc within a few seconds of watching them ride,Better question -- can you, when driving anywhere in the car with your significant other and passing a cyclist, not comment on this? I can't.

It's a chorus of, "Seat's too low." "Look at that guy rocking his hips - ouch!" and "Nice spin, actually." It's a miracle my wife puts up with me.

[maxn]

Better question -- can you, when driving anywhere in the car with your significant other and passing a cyclist, not comment on this? I can't.

It's a chorus of, "Seat's too low." "Look at that guy rocking his hips - ouch!" and "Nice spin, actually." It's a miracle my wife puts up with me.

Ha ha I do that all the time, but only with a really smooth spin or giant precessing knee wobbles

[christian]

giant precessing knee wobblesIt's fun when you can pick out a Speedplay user from 250m behind!

[Gummee]

Better question -- can you, when driving anywhere in the car with your significant other and passing a cyclist, not comment on this? I can't.

It's a chorus of, "Seat's too low." "Look at that guy rocking his hips - ouch!" and "Nice spin, actually." It's a miracle my wife puts up with me.I'm not sayin nuthin. Nope. Not a word.

...but I'm single right now, so while I keep noticing those kinds of things, I can't point em out to anyone.

M

[fuzzalow]

Jeepers, forget about me being able to point out a riders style & grace, or lack thereof, on the road while in my car. My wife can do it, pointing out to the finest detail. And she does not ride. Boy, that's gotta be a good marriage, shared insanity by association.

Anyway, this kind of ties in to my rant against douchebag roadies (DBR) from another thread about riding a MTB on the MUT. Almost any rider can see another good rider from a mile away - clear as day. Except when the driving obsession is to be a DBR to as many as can be done in a day.

[Ti Designs]

It's fun when you can pick out a Speedplay user from 250m behind!

That's always annoyed the hell out of me. I work with people to solve their cycling injuries for a living, so I have my own little database of how equipment effects the rider. I too watch people on Speedplay X-series pedals and watch the heel kick inward as they push over the top, knowing that almost every case of hip bursitis that I've seen has happened using those pedals. Unless they come to me to solve problems, I don't say anything. I even make it a point to try not to remember what I'm seeing that's alarming. By far the worst case of this is in the winter when I use the Spin bikes at my gym. Spin bikes are injury machines with their 40 pound flywheel, 5:1 gear ratio and nobody uses enough resistance, so the bike is manipulating the rider instead of the other way around. I watched a sub 5' tall girl get yanked and tugged around by a Spin bike until her MCL failed, and I knew it was going to happen. I'm really glad they turn the lights off during class...

[Ti Designs]

I've always thought of these rules of thumb in fit as a starting point. Once you get there, you can look at balance on the bike flexibility Power etc, and adjust accordingly... you have to start somewhere


Most fitters don't know where to go from there. The last fitting school I went to was in 2006, the issue of saddle fore/aft was never covered. Experienced riders know things about fit from their own personal experience - you don't set up your track bike like you do your climbing bike. Bike fitters who learn their trade by going to fit schools often don't know this.

[rustychisel]

Most fitters don't know where to go from there. The last fitting school I went to was in 2006, the issue of saddle fore/aft was never covered. Experienced riders know things about fit from their own personal experience - you don't set up your track bike like you do your climbing bike. Bike fitters who learn their trade by going to fit schools often don't know this.


true that.

I knew this was going to turn into exclusively about fit, because it's the single great imponderable about cycling.

I'd go with oldpotatoe and agree KOPS is but a guide in the process. Pelvis rocking (seen from behind) is always a sign of something wrong. Tell ya what; if you can't ride no hands your balance points aren't sorted, either for track or road. [there isn't anything else, triathletes are scarcely human].

[zap]

Most fitters don't know where to go from there. The last fitting school I went to was in 2006, the issue of saddle fore/aft was never covered.

Really?????

If you paid for this particular blab fest, did you ask for a refund?

[Gummee]

I'd go with oldpotatoe and agree KOPS is but a guide in the process. Pelvis rocking (seen from behind) is always a sign of something wrong. Tell ya what; if you can't ride no hands your balance points aren't sorted, either for track or road. [there isn't anything else, triathletes are scarcely human].
You can see knees not tracking straight very easily too. That whole figure 8 that the knees track? Not so bueno. Means you've got fit issues. Either a leg length discrepancy or something else going on.

M

[rustychisel]

You can see knees not tracking straight very easily too. That whole figure 8 that the knees track? Not so bueno. Means you've got fit issues. Either a leg length discrepancy or something else going on.

M

absolutely agree, but as you note it can often indicate a pre-existing condition which is less easy to treat or resolve.

[coylifut]

You can see knees not tracking straight very easily too. That whole figure 8 that the knees track? Not so bueno. Means you've got fit issues. Either a leg length discrepancy or something else going on.

M

much more likely that you have physical issues that can be tracked up the muscular chain to find the culprit. i've seen very experienced, fast and winning cyclists suddenly or not so suddenly develop knee tracking issues. some of them pedaled their way to the problem through muscle imbalances and tightness, some of them have acute injuries due to crashes.

I don't care how good your fitter is, if your right knee doesn't track because your right soaz is gorked because you broke your left scapula and never got straightened out, you'll have problems.

Back to fitting though. My experience is that the good shops all offer the service and those who spend the $ to participate, leave the shop on the right sized bike. Over time, their bars move down and out and their saddle back. The shop, nor the folks buying the bikes have any idea what kind of an enthusiast they will turnout to be. It's the second round of bike buying where they generally get it right.