Tour de Cagematch: Wiggins vs. Froome

[54ny77]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/04/news/froome-i-will-lead-sky-at-the-tour_284164

Funny comment on Velonews:

"Art O'Connor
I hope Rapha makes an over wrought film about the Gentleman's Slap Fight with dramatic music, sweeping camera shots and releases a $400 limited edition pacifier."

[bluesea]

Would be great to see Wiggo drop out of the Giro. How dare the Brail-man move the standing winner out of the race. :banana:

[bikingshearer]

So the question is: will the battle be kept more or less behind closed doors like Riis-Ulrich in '97, or will we have a full-blown donnybrook in public a la Hinault-Lemond in '86? Either way, this could be big fun.

BTW, keep in mind that in both of the above examples, the defending champ lost to the younger "teammate."

[bluesea]

will the battle be kept more or less behind closed doors like Riis-Ulrich in '97,


Don't want to see Wiggo throw his bike again. :) Would like to see Wiggo win this one and quit the team just to stick it to Brail-man, although in the end the latter wins either way.

[firerescuefin]

Froome has lost 2 grand tours being Wiggos "boy". Win the Giro, and pay your boy back for being a hell of a teammate.

[slidey]

Surely we're past the closed doors phase now. It seems like we're headed towards some egotistical stand-offs.

So the question is: will the battle be kept more or less behind closed doors like Riis-Ulrich in '97,...

On a related note, Go Contador! :banana:

[54ny77]

Can Froome handle the long haul demands of a 3 week stage race at or near the top?

Wiggins has been there done that, so he's got experience on his side.

Oh is Contador racing too?

This year oughtta be good.

[MattTuck]

“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[firerescuefin]

Can Froome handle the long haul demands of a 3 week stage race at or near the top?

Wiggins has been there done that, so he's got experience on his side.

Oh is Contador racing too?

This year oughtta be good.

I'm confused. He's dragged him through 2 grand tours....finishing 2nd in both...should have won the Vuelta (2011)...could've won the TdF in 2012...people forget he lost 1:40 on stage 1 because he wasn't the protected leader, got a flat, and had no one to help pace him back. What exactly has he not done again?...perhaps ride out if the wind/behind a team for three weeks.

[54ny77]

for that 1:40, were he to just have outright attacked wiggins at one of the harder stages seeking to claw back the 1:40, could he have been fired by the team and sent home/yanked? or do you think wiggins would have dug deep into the reserves of experience to minimize the losses, whereupon froome would've eaten crow after wiggins would crush on the tt's? then again froome's no slouch in tt's either, so who knows.

remember that's effectively what contador did against armstrong that year--it was awesome to watch, defying bruyneel orders and just saying adios to everyone. but, he wasn't sacked.

it'll be interesting to see how froome carries himself this year. he's sure had a strong 1st quarter.

I'm confused. He's dragged him through 2 grand tours....finishing 2nd in both...should have won the Vuelta (2011)...could've won the TdF in 2012...people forget he lost 1:40 on stage 1 because he wasn't the protected leader, got a flat, and had no one to help pace him back. What exactly has he not done again?...perhaps ride out if the wind/behind a team for three weeks.

[firerescuefin]

It's Froome's time to shine...he's earned it IMO.


for that 1:40, were he to just have outright attacked wiggins at one stage seeking to claw back the 1:40, could he have been fired by the team and sent home/yanked?

remember that's effectively what contador did against armstrong that year--it was awesome to watch, defying bruyneel orders and just saying adios to everyone. but, he wasn't sacked.

it'll be interesting to see how froome carries himself this year. he's sure had a strong 1st quarter.

[ultraman6970]

IMO wiggo has not interest in the TdF no more, he got one, more than enough... thats why he will try the giro, would be weird if he goes for the triple crown tho... well.. if he wins the giro.

[bluesea]

Froome is looking uber-strong right now. I don't really go with the earned it thing. He's earned respect, but the start of every race is just that.


IMO wiggo has not interest in the TdF no more, he got one, more than enough... thats why he will try the giro, would be weird if he goes for the triple crown tho... well.. if he wins the giro.

So you're saying he's whining, posturing? Probable.

[jlwdm]

I'm confused. He's dragged him through 2 grand tours....finishing 2nd in both...should have won the Vuelta (2011)...could've won the TdF in 2012...people forget he lost 1:40 on stage 1 because he wasn't the protected leader, got a flat, and had no one to help pace him back. What exactly has he not done again?...perhaps ride out if the wind/behind a team for three weeks.

Froome looked good in the tour but the pressure is very different on a team leader v dragging someone around. Also just because riders can accelerate on climbs does not mean they can stay away.

Lots of speculation on what could have happened.

Not a Wiggins fan personally.

Jeff

[ultraman6970]

That's so relative IMO, the cool about wiggo is that he has style and cold blood... you never know if he is burnt or not... like froome dont take me wrong but the little bit I saw of wiggo in the mountains showed that he was ready to climb all by himself.

For example right now I believe more wiggo winning a climbing stage just because he can do it than pozzovivo, that kid hasnt done anything this season.

Well going to miss the 1st stage damm it :)

[firerescuefin]

Froome is looking uber-strong right now. I don't really go with the earned it thing. He's earned respect, but the start of every race is just that.




So you're saying he's whining, posturing? Probable.

With his pat performance and current form...he's earned the right to lead the team at the tdf...a parcours that suits him much better than Wiggins.

[MattTuck]

A few thoughts about this.

Bike racing is an inherently unpredictable pursuit. Crashes have removed team leaders from the race as well as taking them out of contention.

The foundation for Armstrong's first tour was poured at Passage du gois before the road ever tilted up.

If Wiggins and Froome both even get to the tour and are in good condition, it makes good strategic sense to present a 'team in chaos'. It is harder to mark two people compared to one, and there is no down side if the team is tight internally.

I'm pretty sure that I recall Wiggins publicly stating that he would support Froome. I think he's a stand up guy and will honor that. So, in my opinion, this is all theatrics and misdirection...

and even if it is not, I still think it is a strategically sound posture.

[bluesea]

With his pat performance and current form...he's earned the right to lead the team at the tdf...a parcours that suits him much better than Wiggins.

That's what it looks like, and I seriously have my doubts about Wiggo. Instead of Lemond/Hinault, Ulrich/Riis, I see Indurain/Perico '90-'91.

[reggiebaseball]

Can Froome handle the long haul demands of a 3 week stage race at or near the top?

Wiggins has been there done that, so he's got experience on his side.

Froome carried Wiggo on his back through the last TDF, that doesn't earn him enough street cred with you?

[colod]

Nothing better for cycling than intra-team rivalries. (Anything that undermines the ability of DS's to control a race is good.) I'm hoping for Lemond-Hinault style challenges, though it says something about the state of cycling that we've got to view Bradley Wiggins as the modern equivalent of the Badger. :(

[slidey]

I thought about this strategy already, and there was were a few points which made me think this is unlikely.

1. Both Wiggins/Froome are fiery characters, and there is enough truth in their convictions that they each deserve to be the leader. Froome for reasons most have highlighted here, but most of all for the implicit promise that seemed to be made last year to him by Sky for his continued support of the team's goal; and Wiggins since he'll be the defending champion.

2. Both W/F have dramatically different styles of riding leading to each preferring different strategies at different points of the race, and it'd be very hard for the Sky support cast to act as an effective support system for both W/F. It has to be one or the other.

3. #2 above leads me to believe that W/F is a mutually exclusive choice, and Brailsford will know that. Brailsford as the DS, in my estimation, will do anything to achieve the larger goal for Sky - TdF victory regardless of the leader. I'd imagine Brailsford would come off as a colossal muppet if he were to let indecision dictate and squander away the team's choice from the get-go. Losing is one thing, squandering away is doing #2 above.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong...but I fancy the chances of my analysis.

If Wiggins and Froome both even get to the tour and are in good condition, it makes good strategic sense to present a 'team in chaos'. It is harder to mark two people compared to one, and there is no down side if the team is tight internally.

[54ny77]

i honestly barely watched last year's tour and major stage races so i dunno what froome did or didn't do. all i know is he got 2nd. could he have won? who knows. maybe he'd have bonked. maybe he'd have crashed. maybe he'd have scorched his rivals given free reign. we'll never know, and it doesn't matter.

this year is wiggins' and froome's tdf to lose. could be schleck bros style results all over again if someone can capitalize on the rivalry (contador?).

Froome carried Wiggo on his back through the last TDF, that doesn't earn him enough street cred with you?

[Vientomas]

Isn't Sky in the entertainment biz? Looks to me like they are generating some buzz. It's good for business.

[jpw]

Isn't Sky in the entertainment biz? Looks to me like they are generating some buzz. It's good for business.

Exactly.

The whole thing is a crafted media story to generate an audience.

Sky isn't in cycling for the love of the sport. It's a media investment, and this is the ongoing proxy war between media corporations using sport as the battleground.

I really don't know how Wiggins or Froome can keep a straight face when giving their faux interviews.

[Llewellyn]

Isn't Sky in the entertainment biz?

Well they didn't do much entertaining in last year's Tour :mad: :mad:

[firerescuefin]

Well they didn't do much entertaining in last year's Tour :mad: :mad:

I'm not a Sky defender...but wasn't it the other teams that didn't do the entertaining. They placed 2 guys on the top 2 slots...won quite a few stages...and dominated the race.

[MattTuck]

I'm not a Sky defender...but wasn't it the other teams that didn't do the entertaining. They placed 2 guys on the top 2 slots...won quite a few stages...and dominated the race.

Geoff,

It's only entertaining if they win a little. If they win too much, it isn't fun to watch anymore. If a team is too dominant, it sucks. Didn't you get the memo? ;)


I'm looking forward to seeing how the Americans do.

[PQJ]

Froome seems to respond better to the juice than Wiggo. Wiggo will have to play support unless he can tweak his program.

[oldpotatoe]

It's Froome's time to shine...he's earned it IMO.

I like your posts because of,

"Everyone's got a plan...until they get hit - M.Tyson"

Makes me smile everytime I read it.

[firerescuefin]

Froome looked good in the tour but the pressure is very different on a team leader v dragging someone around. Also just because riders can accelerate on climbs does not mean they can stay away.
Jeff

Jeff...did you watch the Tour? He accelerated was going away and sat up and waited...on numerous occasions. There were 2 other stages he could have won outright....and minimized his losses in the TT. I thought Sky had a great win...and Wiggins was a worthy Champion...but last years tour was TT heavy...this years is suited to climbers. If Wiggins chooses to take the "dick" route, I hope Froome blows him off the mountain.

Edit..Added: If Wiggin's stance was that he was the leader of Sky...period...I'd have less of a problem. To laud Froome as a teammate, say you'll have his back in this year's TdF.....then back away (unless this is mind games produced for others by Sky...which is a possibility given Brailsford's love of playing chess games) and create tension in the team and alienate a guy that put it on the line for you is my big issue.

[firerescuefin]

I like your posts because of,

"Everyone's got a plan...until they get hit - M.Tyson"

Makes me smile everytime I read it.

You know why I love that quote Peter (and I think you agree)...because it's spot on...whether your flying F-14s, fighting a fire, riding a bike race...usually battles/conflicts are won when you can take the punch, keep your wits, and respond accordingly. Plans in a vacuum don't survive very long.

[kurto]

could he have won?
Yes. From what I saw, and given many other armchair analysts' opinions, yes, Froome was the stronger rider from start to finish on a course that was basically made for Wiggo. Let's not overlook the difference in route this year. It will be much harder for Wiggo to win this Tour, even with a team supporting him.

[torquer]

It's only entertaining if they win a little. If they win too much, it isn't fun to watch anymore. If a team is too dominant, it sucks. Didn't you get the memo?
Yankees fans were deleted from that CC list.;)

From a purely "sporting" perspective, the list of previous intra-team rivalries isn't that encouraging:
Hinault/LeMond (predates the pharma revolution of the 90's, but who knows what was on their training table.)
Riis/Ulrich (admitted/well-documented PED histories.)
Contador/LA (Spanish beef/Shiner Bock)

But lets also look at Giro/Tour doubles: after Hinault and Indurain, only Pantani and Contador have done that. I like Froome, and wish him well, but he's no Pantani (and certainly doesn't have access to Pantani's "program') and even Contador isn't performing like his pre-beefsteak self. So any talk of back-to-back GT victories by anyone is highly speculative, ATMO.

[ultrafi]

I say let Wiggins and Froome fight it out so that Nibali can escape while they're watching each other.

[CunegoFan]

I say let Wiggins and Froome fight it out so that Nibali can escape while they're watching each other.

Maybe they will be too engrossed staring at their power meters to notice Nibali escaping.

I predict a boring Tour.

[EDS]

Not sure about the internal politics at Sky, but I suspect the decision will be easy if Wiggins goes for it at the Giro - he just won't have enough in the tank to win the Tour as well, so Froome gets the leadership by default. Giro-Vuelta double seems much more doable, but obviously still unlikely.

[cfox]

Maybe they will be too engrossed staring at their power meters to notice Nibali escaping.

I predict a boring Tour.

I really hope Contador can help prevent a boring tour. Love him/hate him he always fights like a mofo, lights things up, and usually wins. Last year's Vuelta was fantastic.

[CunegoFan]

I really hope Contador can help prevent a boring tour. Love him/hate him he always fights like a mofo, lights things up, and usually wins. Last year's Vuelta was fantastic.

That is my hope also, but from what we have seen so far this year, whatever kick-a-pow joy juice Sky is on is so superior to what everyone else is using that they will just ride at front, U.S. Postal style, and no one will be able to stay away.

I think the racing was better in the 90s when everyone could jack to their heart's content. The racing sucks when some guys are juicing and while others are not.

Anyway, I am pulling for Nibali. He has really come into his own in recent years and he has balls.

[corky]

...... Sky Management is noticebly quiet on the subject, leads me to beleive its to psyche out the opposition, and I don't mean anyone in the Sky camp

[tiretrax]

Anyway, I am pulling for Nibali. He has really come into his own in recent years and he has balls.

I recently read a quote that I thought was pretty spot on about Nibali - "He's a 95% rider." Very talented, but won't win a major stage race. I'd love to see him slide in, especially since he didn't seem to get the support he deserved at Liquigas/Cannondale, IMHO.

I think the Wiggins/Froome imbroglio is theatrics and a ratings ploy. I thought last year's TDF lacked any excitement other than the idiots with smoke flares. It was USPS redux, giving me suspicions that Sky had more than coffe and milk in their lattes.

[cfox]

I recently read a quote that I thought was pretty spot on about Nibali - "He's a 95% rider." Very talented, but won't win a major stage race. I'd love to see him slide in, especially since he didn't seem to get the support he deserved at Liquigas/Cannondale, IMHO.

I think the Wiggins/Froome imbroglio is theatrics and a ratings ploy. I thought last year's TDF lacked any excitement other than the idiots with smoke flares. It was USPS redux, giving me suspicions that Sky had more than coffe and milk in their lattes.

??(in bold^^) Nibali won the 2010 Vuelta

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I don't think either of them podium this year. In fact, I wish they would give Sergio Henao a free reign to see what he can do in a grand tour. Same thing for Nairo Quintana on Movistar. Would be good to see a few Colombians lighting it up on climbs, and that Quintana guy can TT, too.

[firerescuefin]

I don't think either of them podium this year. In fact, I wish they would give Sergio Henao a free reign to see what he can do in a grand tour. Same thing for Nairo Quintana on Movistar. Would be good to see a few Colombians lighting it up on climbs, and that Quintana guy can TT, too.

Robert...Are you talking about Froome and Wiggins?

[firerescuefin]

??(in bold^^) Nibali won the 2010 Vuelta

Agreed. Due to bad weather and time on the trainer...I just finished re-watching the 2012 Tour (yes, I've been told it was hard enough to watch the first time:help: ).....Nibali had Basso....occasionally. Wiggins had pretty damn near the whole team...they'd get into the last climb and have at a minimum Rogers, Porte, and Froome, and often times you could add Boasson Hagan. I thought Nibali did what he could. He wasn't the measure of Froome, but to put him out there as a second rate grand tour rider is wrong IMO.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Robert...Are you talking about Froome and Wiggins?

Yep. Wiggins is not looking all that good so far this year, and I don't think Froome will beat Contador or Rodriguez, among others.

I do believe that Froome should lead the team in the Tour, though, and I agree that, had Sky let Froome ride for himself on the Angliru instead of staying with Wiggins too long, he would have won the Vuelta in 2011.

I thought team leadership was cleared up and agreed to by Brailsford, Wiggins, and Froome a long time ago--all agreed Froome would lead. I don't understand all the back pedaling now by Wiggins.

[cfox]

Agreed. Due to bad weather and time on the trainer...I just finished re-watching the 2012 Tour (yes, I've been told it was hard enough to watch the first time:help: ).....Nibali had Basso....occasionally. Wiggins had pretty damn near the whole team...they'd get into the last climb and have at a minimum Rogers, Porte, and Froome, and often times you could add Boasson Hagan. I thought Nibali did what he could. He wasn't the measure of Froome, but to put him out there as a second rate grand tour rider is wrong IMO.

exactly, because as it stands, the grand tour scorecard is:
Nibali: 1
Froome: 0

[firerescuefin]

Yep. Wiggins is not looking all that good so far this year, and I don't think Froome will beat Contador or Rodriguez, among others.

I do believe that Froome should lead the team in the Tour, though, and I agree that, had Sky let Froome ride for himself on the Angliru instead of staying with Wiggins too long, he would have won the Vuelta in 2011.

I thought team leadership was cleared up and agreed to by Brailsford, Wiggins, and Froome a long time ago--all agreed Froome would lead. I don't understand all the back pedaling now by Wiggins.

I think Froome has the measure of Rodriguez...I'm not sure we'll ever see the AC that we saw in the past. Those are the 2 that I'd like to see square off because their both explosive climbers that can lay down a mean TT. Froome, although not as pretty as AC when dancing on the pedals is made in his image.

[bluesea]

Hasn't it been true that putting a grand tour podium level Italian rider in the Giro, is a decision to de-prioritize the chase for the yellow jersey?

[CunegoFan]

I thought team leadership was cleared up and agreed to by Brailsford, Wiggins, and Froome a long time ago--all agreed Froome would lead. I don't understand all the back pedaling now by Wiggins.

A win by Wiggins is worth a lot more to the team than a win by Froome. Brailsford and Wiggins are tight and go way back.

Froome's girlfriend is none too happy about the situation. Read her tweets.

[jlwdm]

Yankees fans were deleted from that CC list.;)

...

But lets also look at Giro/Tour doubles: after Hinault and Indurain, only Pantani and Contador have done that. ....

Roche: Giro, Tour and World Championship.

Jeff

[tiretrax]

exactly, because as it stands, the grand tour scorecard is:
Nibali: 1
Froome: 0

Yes, but Froome was held back twice in favor of Wiggins, costing him the 2011 Vuelta and, most likely, last year's TDF.

I'll try to find the quote about Nibali. Don't get me wrong - I don't think he's second class. IMHO, he doesn't have the gusto to win a lot of races that he should have, such as Paris-Nice this year.

[54ny77]

things got interesting as of today's giro.


:bike:

[slidey]

How do you mean interesting? As in, are you referring to his performance today or have there been some media blurbs as well?

things got interesting as of today's giro.


:bike:

[54ny77]

i mean in terms of wiggins being sick and now completely out of contention for giro g.c., brailsford said team will rally around uran.

what if wiggo recovers and is in top form in july?

hinault/lemond part deux?

How do you mean interesting? As in, are you referring to his performance today or have there been some media blurbs as well?

[axel23]

How about the wild cards on Sky? Maybe both Froome and Wiggins will falter and we'll see Porte (that Tasmanian Devil who dominated Paris-Nice this year) take it all. And then again there's Uran, who climbs so beautifully and may overcome his time trialling limitations.

[slidey]

Ah ok. Well, I heard DQ (on Eurosport) saying a couple of days back that Brailsford had stated expressly that Froome would be the team leader for TdF, so that implies its just Wiggo's ego that'll take a beating. Maybe he'll be vying for the Vuelta...and, we come full circle! ;)

i mean in terms of wiggins being sick and now completely out of contention for giro g.c., brailsford said team will rally around uran.

what if wiggo recovers and is in top form in july?

hinault/lemond part deux?

[chengher87]

But if Wiggins can gain time in the two time trials this year like he did last year in the Tour.....it will be very interesting.

I was glad to see that Sky wasn't stupid enough to have both Henao and Uran drop back to help Wiggins when he shattered.