Light alloy tubular rims

[10-4]

Who makes them? Anything lighter than the Velocity Escape at 390g that's readily available?

[false_Aest]

Ambrosion Chrono ~340g


kinlin is ~440g
HED is ~435

[10-4]

Ambrosion Chrono ~340g


kinlin is ~440g
HED is ~435

Ever used the Chrono? I've used the HED and it's fine, though a little heavy. Same with Major Tom.

[cmbicycles]

Not exactly readily available, but the Mavic Gel 280's are about the lightest I can remember. Somewhere around 300g if I remember correctly. You can still find them from time to time, but haven't been made for years

[Gummee]

Who makes them? Anything lighter than the Velocity Escape at 390g that's readily available?

For doing what? Vintage build? Modern drivetrain? Track?

IME an older box-section tubular doesn't hold up well to the dish of 8/9/10sp wheels. If you go all 'pro' on em and run an 'aero' rim in the back with a box-section front I think you'll be OK. Same as what the pros were running when those 'aero' rims were first becoming popular in the late 80s.

M

[jumpjube]

Yep. Built up my Calfee bamboo with Ambrosio Chrono rims. No complaints.

If I recall correctly, the Chrono's may have a weight limit. That's not a problem for me, however, at 135'ish pounds.

[Lionel]

Mavic reflex or Ambrosio Crono F20

[ergott]

Nothing lighter that's worth building up to a modern wheel save for a front under a light rider. They don't play well with modern hubs.

I have 280g (ish) NOS rims here, but I just use them for stretching tires. 36h. If you are interested send me a message.

[redir]

For doing what? Vintage build? Modern drivetrain? Track?

IME an older box-section tubular doesn't hold up well to the dish of 8/9/10sp wheels. If you go all 'pro' on em and run an 'aero' rim in the back with a box-section front I think you'll be OK. Same as what the pros were running when those 'aero' rims were first becoming popular in the late 80s.

M

When you say don't hold up well what do you mean? I've been running box section wheels on 9-speed Shimano for years. I did however recently had a cracked eyelet. So are you saying that the modern dish is tighter and so there fore puts more stress on these old rims?

[shovelhd]

Not exactly readily available, but the Mavic Gel 280's are about the lightest I can remember. Somewhere around 300g if I remember correctly. You can still find them from time to time, but haven't been made for years

The GEL280 was 280g nominal, and the GL330 was 330g nominal if I remember correctly.

[false_Aest]

In Ergott I trust.

[zap]

The GEL280 was 280g nominal, and the GL330 was 330g nominal if I remember correctly.

Right, then add the weight of eyelets and whatever wear the die goes through during it's extruding lifetime to the nominal weight.

I used GL330 when I raced crits. Did not make for a solid wheel set. The 280's must be worthless unless you weigh 80lbs and your max output is 400w.

[Mark McM]

Right, then add the weight of eyelets and whatever wear the die goes through during it's extruding lifetime to the nominal weight.

I used GL330 when I raced crits. Did not make for a solid wheel set. The 280's must be worthless unless you weigh 80lbs and your max output is 400w.

As noted above, the actual weights of GEL 280 rims was about 300 grams (and the actual weights of GL330 rims was closer to 350 grams).

And as noted, due to their shallow depth and folded-from-sheet construction*, the have both poor cross-sectional stiffness and low yield strength, and don't tolerate the high left/right spoke tension of modern 8/9/10/11spd wheels.

*Modern rims are made rolled from extruded channels. The extrusion process allows wide variation in cross-sectional designs, both in overall shape and in increasing wall thicknesses were required (such as spoke beds and brake tracks). In addition, age hardening alloys may be used in the extrusion process. In contrast, the GEL 280 and GL330 rims were made using a more primitive process, in which sheets of aluminum are folded into the rim cross-section shape. This results in a cross-section with uniform wall thickness (which might have extra material where it isn't needed, too little material where it is needed). Because the cross-section is cold-formed, it usually requires the rim to be made from a more malleable (and weaker) alloy.

[martl]

Yep, the Gel 330s and 280s were weak. Same goes for even lighter vintage stuff like the Mavic OR10 or certain Nisi track rims who would go as low as 220g.

first, these will need 36h setup to be truable/rideable at all, so a heavier rim that will "stand" on 24 or 28 rims might be the better bargain.

They are a bitch to true and prone to potato-chipping any time.

Also :Old school rims are built for old brakes. Using a modern style brake with those hard sandpaper-like brakepads might wear down your GELs faster than you think.

[merckx]

As noted above, the actual weights of GEL 280 rims was about 300 grams (and the actual weights of GL330 rims was closer to 350 grams).

And as noted, due to their shallow depth and folded-from-sheet construction*, the have both poor cross-sectional stiffness and low yield strength, and don't tolerate the high left/right spoke tension of modern 8/9/10/11spd wheels.

*Modern rims are made rolled from extruded channels. The extrusion process allows wide variation in cross-sectional designs, both in overall shape and in increasing wall thicknesses were required (such as spoke beds and brake tracks). In addition, age hardening alloys may be used in the extrusion process. In contrast, the GEL 280 and GL330 rims were made using a more primitive process, in which sheets of aluminum are folded into the rim cross-section shape. This results in a cross-section with uniform wall thickness (which might have extra material where it isn't needed, too little material where it is needed). Because the cross-section is cold-formed, it usually requires the rim to be made from a more malleable (and weaker) alloy.

Where is the welded seam on these rims?

[Grant McLean]

When you say don't hold up well what do you mean? I've been running box section wheels on 9-speed Shimano for years. I did however recently had a cracked eyelet. So are you saying that the modern dish is tighter and so there fore puts more stress on these old rims?

yup. expect more cracked eyelets on the rear drive-side.

-g

[Gummee]

When you say don't hold up well what do you mean? I've been running box section wheels on 9-speed Shimano for years. I did however recently had a cracked eyelet. So are you saying that the modern dish is tighter and so there fore puts more stress on these old rims?Si

I couldn't keep my rear Ultegra/GL330 wheel true to save my life. EVERY ride I'd have to touch it up. ...and I'm light on my wheels. The fronts I never needed to mess with. Other rear wheels I'd built I didn't have to mess with.

I replaced the GL330 with an Escape and that solved all my problems. Hence the recommendation to go 'pro style' and run an 'aero' rear rim with a box-section front. IIRC 7-11 did a Wolber combo like that.

M

[shovelhd]

Right, then add the weight of eyelets and whatever wear the die goes through during it's extruding lifetime to the nominal weight.

I used GL330 when I raced crits. Did not make for a solid wheel set. The 280's must be worthless unless you weigh 80lbs and your max output is 400w.

I had a set of 32h 280's and two sets of 36h 330's when I raced in the 80's. There was a noticeable difference in rigidity between the two builds, but the 280's were race worthy. The Ambrosio's had just come out and were the schiznitz.

[Gummee]

Where is the welded seam on these rims?

You're funny.

Welded seams indeed!

M

[Gummee]

I had a set of 32h 280's and two sets of 36h 330's when I raced in the 80's. There was a noticeable difference in rigidity between the two builds, but the 280's were race worthy. The Ambrosio's had just come out and were the schiznitz.I had buddies that would race on 35h wheels if something happened.

M

[Hindmost]

Where is the welded seam on these rims?

My question too.

Mark M has some good info. He implies that the old rims were made from seamed tubing.

[Gummee]

My question too.

Mark M has some good info. He implies that the old rims were made from seamed tubing.The joints where the parts of the rim extrusions me were pinned and glued.

Welding didn't come into being till the Open SUP CDs years later. Open4CDs were pinned and glued. As were MA series rims.

M

[Mark McM]

Where is the welded seam on these rims?

I don't believe it was torch welded - more like crimped, or pressure welded. In any case, the seam usually runs up the center of the tire bed.

In this cross section of a Gl330, the remnant of the seam is the 'tang' under the tire bed:

http://www8.atpages.jp/atsuyokosasayama/diary/0507-12/s-7186trim.jpg

In the photo you can see the other halllmarks of this folded construction, including uniform wall thickness and the lack of sharp corners. Compare to the modern Reflex tubular rim cross-section:

http://www.cyclebasket.com/smsimg/99/998-3339-full-zzzz1236reflex-99.jpg

[Hindmost]

Thanks, Mark M. I have ridden a lot of these rims and didn't know the details of construction. The early rims were of a softer material that was associated with the nature of the constuction as you pointed out. These rims required 36 and later 32 spokes for structural strength.

[zmudshark]

FWIW, I have a set of 36h G.E.L. 280's laced to Centaur 10s hubs that I ride occasionally.

They are not everyday riders, and the roads are pretty good where I ride. I've never had problems with them. I put them on when I want to keep up with the youngsters on a hard ride. I weigh about 165, 62 YO, and ride old steel.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-EfyySS6iFc8/T5A4DKhoc5I/AAAAAAAAHtM/r9p7kB8HWwE/s640/P1030190.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w4kcH_e9FEw/T5A4Blawt9I/AAAAAAAAHs8/pGelAd9PhNI/s800/P1030188.JPG

[thwart]

I put them on when I want to keep up with the youngsters on a hard ride.I suspect that, having ridden with you, there's a good likelihood you could do that pretty darn well anyway.

Ah, the psychology of bike parts (or framesets, for that matter)... if you think they'll give you an advantage, then they will.

[zmudshark]

I suspect that, having ridden with you, there's a good likelihood you could do that pretty darn well anyway.

Ah, the psychology of bike parts (or framesets, for that matter)... if you think they'll give you an advantage, then they will.

I have more trouble keeping up with the old guys, than the (comparatively) young ones.

There are some really fast old guys in PHX. Rich bastards.

[oldpotatoe]

The GEL280 was 280g nominal, and the GL330 was 330g nominal if I remember correctly.

Actually they were all heavier than 280 and 330g. I suspect they weighed the rim, then installed the eyelets.