Please stop drilling holes in frames for di2!

[MattTuck]

<rant>

In one or two generations of electronic shifting, the groups are almost certainly going to go wireless. We're going to be left with a generation of bikes with holes in them and nothing to fill them with.

I understand the allure of having the newest thing, but I think bikes with internally routed electric cables are going to look very silly in 5 years.

</rant>

[avalonracing]

"Speed holes!"

(Simpsons reference)

[Grant McLean]

<rant>



I understand the allure of having the newest thing, but I think bikes with internally routed electric cables are going to look very silly in 5 years.

</rant>

So no braze-ons for those ordering new steel frames?

-g

[MattTuck]

"Speed holes!"

(Simpsons reference)

Robb,

Hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVV_COOey0E

[MattTuck]

So no braze-ons for those ordering new steel frames?

-g

Right! We sould all ride brakeless fixed until the future arrives ;)



Seriously, of course not. I know the allure of the newest thing and having a frame that does that with grace. And I think the early adopters are pushing the engineers up the learning curve. I just think that if/when it goes wireless, there'll be a lot of bikes with holes in them.

[bicycletricycle]

if u got a steel bike then you can have the holes filled next time it gets a repaint. if you have a carbon bike it will probably have an outdated bottom bracket/headtube standard so it wont matter anyways.

[christian]

I think it'll all get more internal and integrated; but unlikely it'll go wireless.

[cmg]

i googled it, the future's here. http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/128856-Shimano-s-new-Wireless-Shifters-Derailleurs-looking-cool

[SpokeValley]

"speed holes!"

(simpsons reference)

lol

[keevon]

i ggogled it, the future's here. http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/128856-Shimano-s-new-Wireless-Shifters-Derailleurs-looking-cool

That Stefan Schumacher fellow sure is going places...

[jpw]

is there any actual evidence out there that any of the big three are working on wireless systems? I've seen precisely nothing. Show me a snatched photo of a wireless prototype component and then I'm all ears.

[cmg]

is there any actual evidence out there that any of the big three are working on wireless systems? I've seen precisely nothing. Show me a snatched photo of a wireless prototype component and then I'm all ears.

TISO HAS THIS http://www.gizmag.com/tiso-wireless-bicycle-gear-shifting/25496/

[XJBaylor]

I think it'll all get more internal and integrated; but unlikely it'll go wireless.

Someone will do it just because, but I agree that this seems like a poor application of wireless technology.

[jr59]

Wow Matt!

How about this, You build your bike the way you want it.
And I'll build mine the way I want it!

Sounds like a fair plan to me.

Seeing as you have ZERO info on going wireless, and are just guessing that will happen. I don't think I'll take stock in anybody's WAG.

WAG= Wild A$$ Guess!

[flydhest]

Someone will do it just because, but I agree that this seems like a poor application of wireless technology.

I for one welcome our new overlords.

(Simpsons reference . . . new forum rule, either bike content or Simpsons reference.)

[false_Aest]

Settle yourself down kid,

God made this **** for a reason:

http://i-cdn.apartmenttherapy.com/uimages/chicago/120108greatstuff.jpg

If it works for repairing cars, keeping 2" of shims under a staircase in place (yes, I've seen it), and for making 6 sizes of Audrey from Little Shop of Horrors, it'll work on your bike.

[FlashUNC]

I for one welcome our new overlords.

(Simpsons reference . . . new forum rule, either bike content or Simpsons reference.)

http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/kent-brockman---insect-overlords-66141.jpg

[Formulasaab]

Fortunately, there is nothing new in this world. This has all happened before and it will all happen again.

Witness the annoying uselessness of shifter bosses on the downtube today? A braze on little tube to catch the housing up at the headtube is much cleaner. We've even seen internal routing from the headtube on back.

Damn those decades of bike fabricators who didn't anticipate this turn of events appropriately.

[Louis]

Why is wireless such a bad idea? Assuming 1) you have coded transmissions that can't be spoofed, and 2) a system that doesn't have EMI issues every time you ride by that one whatever that messes up your HRM, I think it's a great idea. With a little effort I see no reason why (1) and (2) can't come to pass, and given the extra $ they'll be able to charge for such a device, I'm 100% certain that they're working long and hard at doing it.

[chengher87]

"Speed holes!"

(Simpsons reference)

You my friend, are a genius.

[Ahneida Ride]

<rant>

In one or two generations of electronic shifting, the groups are almost certainly going to go wireless. We're going to be left with a generation of bikes with holes in them and nothing to fill them with.

I understand the allure of having the newest thing, but I think bikes with internally routed electric cables are going to look very silly in 5 years.

</rant>

Correct ....!!!! but what is the REAL reason .... ???

Oh they will tell ya it's for your own good. That is always the story.
They care about us soooooo much.

Bottom line is that it's cheaper to make electrical components then
mechanical components. More profit !

Gimme a 6 speed over PDK and I want mechanical shifting.
It's the I did it concept.

[Ahneida Ride]

and given the extra $ they'll be able to charge for such a device, I'm 100% certain that they're working long and hard at doing it.

Amen !

[Ahneida Ride]

With enough drilling ....

a bike could be a Holy Roller !

and you wonder why I'm in Double Secret Probation

[christian]

Why is wireless such a bad idea? Assuming 1) you have coded transmissions that can't be spoofed, and 2) a system that doesn't have EMI issues every time you ride by that one whatever that messes up your HRM, I think it's a great idea. With a little effort I see no reason why (1) and (2) can't come to pass, and given the extra $ they'll be able to charge for such a device, I'm 100% certain that they're working long and hard at doing it.

Wired system: Battery, computer, contact switches, 2 electronic servos.

Wireless system: Battery/switch/computer/transmitter, battery/receiver/computer/servo, battery/receiver/computer/servo.

Which would you prefer?

[victoryfactory]

"Speed holes!"

(Simpsons reference)Ha Ha Ha Ha

[Louis]

Which would you prefer?

Neither, but that's beside the point.

As each part of the system gets smaller they'll be able to integrate the batteries in each with less and less trouble. I'm with Matt on this. Within 5 years we'll have wireless. In 7 years (from now) the wireless will be very good.

[67-59]

The circle of commerce...

First, they'll charge you to drill holes for your Di2.

Next, they'll charge you to fill the holes when you go to wireless.

Finally, they'll charge you to re-drill the holes when the wireless isn't what you expected.

:help:

[pavel]

if u got a steel bike then you can have the holes filled next time it gets a repaint. if you have a carbon bike it will probably have an outdated bottom bracket/headtube standard so it wont matter anyways.

It's funny because it's true

[christian]

I think the thing to do is not to go mindlessly wireless, it's to follow Dieter Rams's dictum about design following technological progress.

Now that the rear derailleur is being shifted with servos, not with a cable opposing a spring, there's little reason to leave all the expensive parts hanging outboard of the chain stay - current derailleur design is predicated on the cable coming from the front, the spring and cable being opposed, and the spring and cable directly operating the cage.

With electronic servos, we could soon have derailleurs with electronics and servos that sit inboard of the chainstay, and a jack screw managing the cage movement. How cool would that be - all the costly parts could be protected by the frame.

You'll see it first on XTR Di2, I'm sure, because mountain bikes fall over a lot, and because mtb frame manufacturers are more willing to push the envelope of design than road bike manufacturers are.

That's where we're headed. I've actually thought to patent the above design, because I haven't seen it anywhere yet, but I'm not a component manufacturer...

[MattTuck]

The circle of commerce...

First, they'll charge you to drill holes for your Di2.

Next, they'll charge you to fill the holes when you go to wireless.

Finally, they'll charge you to re-drill the holes when the wireless isn't what you expected.

:help:


This is how I understand that Ezra Cornell (of Cornell University) made his money. First he invented a trench digger to bury telegraph lines underground. He used much of his money from that invention to buy timber land. Then the buried telegraph started to short out because insulation wasn't very good, so they elected to go to telegraph poles... he sold his timber to make telegraph poles.

My original post wasn't too serious. Just some friday fun to get us thinking. JR, of course I agree you should do what pleases you. And I don't think that wired di2 is going away anytime soon. But when it does, it'll give those that want it a good reason to order a new frame.

Here's a link to Ultra low power blue tooth. http://www.digikey.com/us/en/techzone/wireless/resources/articles/bluetooth-goes-ultra-low-power.html

Seems like it would be a good candidate for the problem. 6ms latency.

[54ny77]

this guy's totally ready for di2 or campy eps.

sucks for him when things go wireless though.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QxVe-jbT38g/TDjv-9D0NiI/AAAAAAAAAEg/AKkVxv2qNzU/s1600/bmepb486109.jpg

[bluesea]

I'm with Matt on this. Within 5 years we'll have wireless. In 7 years (from now) the wireless will be very good.


I'm too old to worry about what might happen in 7 years.

[christian]

As each part of the system gets smaller they'll be able to integrate the batteries in each with less and less trouble.There's no doubt about that, but there's a physical limitation to how small the two derailleur batteries could get. At the end of the day, you still have to have enough current and voltage to physically move that chain across the cogs or chainwheels.

[Ken Robb]

I'm having fun imagining 50 riders in a pack when multiple bikes have the same frequency for their wireless shifters.

[CunegoFan]

There's no doubt about that, but there's a physical limitation to how small the two derailleur batteries could get. At the end of the day, you still have to have enough current and voltage to physically move that chain across the cogs or chainwheels.

I seems to me the obvious solution is wiring the derailleurs and large battery pack together with wireless control from the shifters.

[SBash]

I'm having fun imagining 50 riders in a pack when multiple bikes have the same frequency for their wireless shifters.

AND the guy with the 8 speed (mechanical) Dura ace leaving them in the dust!:banana:

[jvp]

drone shifting.

[David Kirk]

I'd be surprised if we don't see a move toward wireless. I used the Mavic Mektronic for a number of years (wireless electronic) and it worked perfectly for me. The wired ZAP was not good - but Mektronic really did work and work well if set up properly.

The issue with wireless isn't getting the shifting signal to the changer but it's getting power to the derailleur. This means that each part of the system needs to have it's own battery - which is how Mektronic worked. This could mean that there is a large weight gain with the extra batteries or it could mean a change in design that would allow each battery to be a small watch battery (again like Mektronic).

Where the Mektronic stuff was super clever was the use of the force of the chain spinning the upper derailleur pulley to move the derailleur from side to side. There were two small/light solenoids in the rear changer that just extended and this, along with the upper pulley spinning, made the der go side to side. This meant the battery was very under taxed and could be just a super small and light $3 watch battery. I used to get more than a season out of a battery.

So some very clever thinking will need to be done to get enough power to each part of the system. I would think the biggest challenge would be the front derailleur which needs a good bit of power/leverage to push the chain to the side.

All this said I think wired electric stuff is here to stay and with it holes in frames to run the wires internally.

I suppose we could skip and and all braze-ons and cable routing and just use zip ties to hold everything one - Universal Fitment!


dave

[plugkev]

right! We sould all ride brakeless fixed as much as possible

+1

[oldpotatoe]

<rant>

In one or two generations of electronic shifting, the groups are almost certainly going to go wireless. We're going to be left with a generation of bikes with holes in them and nothing to fill them with.

I understand the allure of having the newest thing, but I think bikes with internally routed electric cables are going to look very silly in 5 years.

</rant>

Do ya really think the number of bicycles plumbed for electronic vs the number that aren't is that large?

Do ya really think that many of the non metal ones will even be around in 5 years?

And since the derailleurs will undoubtedly still be attached to the power source with wires, even for wireless..how many extra holes do ya think there are?

Answer-probably one, for the wire that goes to the interface.

[christian]

I seems to me the obvious solution is wiring the derailleurs and large battery pack together with wireless control from the shifters.Ok, I suppose I could go along with that; obviously (Garmin quaking in their shoes here), it all has to integrate via radio to the head unit/GPS and crank, too.

[rccardr]

No frame holes for me, baby.

I'm going to hang on to my downtube shifters and lugged steel until they make the REAL leap in technology: Brain Controlled Shifting. No batteries, powered by your kidneys so you never have to wee whilst riding.

Tag line: "I think, therefore I shift"

I'm thinking of patenting this, since I haven"t seen it out there yet (gentle poke, 'tho I think Christian is actually thinking in the right direction- until Kidney Power catches on).

[reggiebaseball]

On a recent road trip, my wife flipped out and screamed for me to find the manual for her Nissan Versa.

IT seems, while driving at night, on the highway, in a steady downpour of rain,

a SCARY red light started flashing angrily on her speedometer dial.

This must be urgent! It flashed violently, then illuminated full RED, right in the middle of the speedometer, and she was convinced we might have to pull over or something.

OK, so sort through the manual,
"If the RED flashing light starts and then turns solid red, it means that the TPMS system (tire pressure monitoring) is temporarily unable to monitor the pressure of your tires. Please proceed to Nissan mechanic.

Now, mind you - the tires are not low on pressure, the system than monitors them is temporarily down.


OK, so the rain was f'ing the sensor, the light went off, and the world is fine.


So grateful for all the electronic doo-dads. Silly me lasted all these years with looking at my tires once in a while (or kicking them) and getting my own air. Now I need some retarded machine to f up and scare my wife while I am trying to sleep on a roadtrip.

This epitomizes how I feel about electronic shifting. Uh-oh, my shifting got the 'blue screen of death', sure glad I got the new electro servo powered disc brakes, wait they don't rely on one of the 18 "convenient" watch-batteries I check before each ride, do they?

[reggiebaseball]

this guy's totally ready for di2 or campy eps.

sucks for him when things go wireless though.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QxVe-jbT38g/TDjv-9D0NiI/AAAAAAAAAEg/AKkVxv2qNzU/s1600/bmepb486109.jpg

Ear is still not big enough for Campy EPS "brain" unit, maybe we can drillum revival some more space in his skull?

[palincss]

<rant>

In one or two generations of electronic shifting, the groups are almost certainly going to go wireless. We're going to be left with a generation of bikes with holes in them and nothing to fill them with.

I understand the allure of having the newest thing, but I think bikes with internally routed electric cables are going to look very silly in 5 years.

</rant>

At which point, consider them disposable and trash them.

[palincss]

Why is wireless such a bad idea? Assuming 1) you have coded transmissions that can't be spoofed...

As much energy as the pros put into every form of cheating, doesn't it seem reasonable to assume they'll do all they can to hack into their competitors' systems so they can remotely shift their bikes into the worst possible gear?

[Louis]

As much energy as the pros put into every form of cheating, doesn't it seem reasonable to assume they'll do all they can to hack into their competitors' systems so they can remotely shift their bikes into the worst possible gear?

One might say the same thing about sawing through brake cables so they fail in the first descent. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure the system can be designed such that it's nearly impossible to spoof it.

[KidWok]

No frame holes for me, baby.

I'm going to hang on to my downtube shifters and lugged steel until they make the REAL leap in technology: Brain Controlled Shifting.

Already done! http://youtu.be/lWzdWMapJ-c

I'd be surprised if we don't see a move toward wireless.



Already done! http://happymtb.org/2009/04/01/sram-goes-electric/ :banana:

There really are no new ideas left in the cycling industry are there??

Tai

[rugbysecondrow]

<rant>

In one or two generations of electronic shifting, the groups are almost certainly going to go wireless. We're going to be left with a generation of bikes with holes in them and nothing to fill them with.

I understand the allure of having the newest thing, but I think bikes with internally routed electric cables are going to look very silly in 5 years.

</rant>


A) How does this become rant? Is this really where we are at now?
B) How many frames have internal cables routed and still find a home? It will be OK.

C) When those rich folks sell their bike which now has useless holes, you can buy it an put in whatever you want. You should be a proponant of it.

[SBash]

Ear is still not big enough for Campy EPS "brain" unit, maybe we can drillum revival some more space in his skull?

un f'n real! I bet this guy's a nose picker!:eek:

[danl1]

I already charge too much stuff. Don't want to have to charge my bike. Especially don't want to have to charge both ends of my bike.

[pbarry]

I'm certain similar discussions took place back in the day when Tulio came up with the first derailleur and the quick release lever. Many clung to their rear hubs with wing nuts and one cog one each side...

[christian]

I'm not a Luddite, but I still use wired keyboard and mouse. Because, well, wires, they work.

[T.J.]

Oops

[pbarry]

I'm not a Luddite, but I still use wired keyboard and mouse. Because, well, wires, they work.

You'll come along with everyone else when it's proven technology, especially if a Campy 12 speed EP3 group on a 55cm frame is offered here at a nice price. ;). The wired mouse and keyboard technology, are what, 25-30 years old? We'll all keep riding and enjoying the miles.

[thirdgenbird]

130mm spacing and the lack of disc mounting bosses may threaten a frame's viability before a few unneeded holes


I'm not a Luddite, but I still use wired keyboard and mouse. Because, well, wires, they work.

Posted without a keyboard or mouse.

[happycampyer]

I'm not a Luddite, but I still use wired keyboard and mouse. Because, well, wires, they work.Until you try an Apple magic mouse. Being able to scroll up and down or page forward and back by swiping up and down or right and left is pretty cool.

To the OP, just stick handlebar streamers in the obsolete Di2 holes.

[cachagua]

What did somebody say up there about you build your bike like you like it.

That doesn't account for the influence of advertising, but. . .

[oldpotatoe]

Ear is still not big enough for Campy EPS "brain" unit, maybe we can drillum revival some more space in his skull?

New one for 2014 is gong to be about this size. Just saw some [pix..plus 2 BB30 spindled cranks(oh happy dayz!). For downtube or seat tube or outside(the best idea, IMHO).

[bluesea]

Until you try an Apple magic mouse. Being able to scroll up and down or page forward and back by swiping up and down or right and left is pretty cool.

To the OP, just stick handlebar streamers in the obsolete Di2 holes.



Apple track pads are the new wireless Di2.

[thirdgenbird]

New one for 2014 is gong to be about this size. Just saw some [pix..plus 2 BB30 spindled cranks(oh happy dayz!). For downtube or seat tube or outside(the best idea, IMHO).

A different battery was expected, but a bb30 crankset comes as a surprise. Does it still use the UT design with a bigger spindle or is it all new?

Edit: if anything, figured Campagnolo would adopt bb386. This works in most frames including standard threaded ones. Reports also indicated that thry supported Willer on bb386. http://gear.mpora.com/road-cycling/italian-evolution-the-bb386-bottom-bracket.html

[pdmtong]

New one for 2014 is gong to be about this size. Just saw some [pix..plus 2 BB30 spindled cranks(oh happy dayz!). For downtube or seat tube or outside(the best idea, IMHO).

it will mount inside of the STor DT using the other side of the bottle boss

[Lionel]

interested in more info on these cranks. Where did you see these pics ?

[54ny77]

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/Di2.png

[happycampyer]

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/Di2.pngwonder where he'd put an internal battery?

[pdmtong]

wonder where he'd put an internal battery?

the internal battery here is also shaped like a sharpie/cigar.

sorry i could not help it.

[oldpotatoe]

interested in more info on these cranks. Where did you see these pics ?

secret

[MattTuck]

"Speed holes!"

(Simpsons reference)

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/upload/images/Super_record_shifters.jpg

[corky]

secret

must be very secret, i looked for more but found none...... ah well...


so can you give us a timeframe for piblic consumption?

[oldpotatoe]

must be very secret, i looked for more but found none...... ah well...


so can you give us a timeframe for piblic consumption?

Some of the big US distributors get sneak peak at this stuff..came from one of them..I'm sure it will be 'leaked' soon and you'll see it on bikeradar/cyclingnews or something soon. Not ground breaking.