Lugged Carbon

[colod]

I cannot make up my mind about lugged carbon frames. Sometimes I love them, sometimes I wonder what the point is. Curious about others' impressions.

[zott28]

Have you ridden a Look 585? You'll like it and never question lugged carbon again.

[krhea]

I cannot make up my mind about lugged carbon frames. Sometimes I love them, sometimes I wonder what the point is. Curious about others' impressions.

C40, C50, C59...'nuff said

[colod]

Have you ridden a Look 585? You'll like it and never question lugged carbon again.

Perhaps that's my problem - I have ridden about everything else (lugged steel, tig steel, titanium, aluminum, monocoque carbon) but never ridden lugged carbon. My love is mainly the relatively traditional looks with the idea/performance of carbon. My concern is that it seems that carbon is so useful and transformative that using it in old-fashioned steel forms (that I love) is a little like running an HDTV movie over a 20-year old vacuum-tube TV set.

I'd love to have my doubts erased!

[esldude]

Well the 585 looks like a traditional lugged frame on the outside. It actually has the carbon tube manipulation on the inside. Much more sophisticated design than it appears.

[bart998]

Calfee Tetra Pro and early (2007) Landshark Carbon, both lugged.... both ride great!

[FlashUNC]

Time VXR.

Amazing bikes.

[Johnnyg]

I cannot make up my mind about lugged carbon frames. Sometimes I love them, sometimes I wonder what the point is. Curious about others' impressions.

Independent Fab makes a few carbon lugged frames.

[oldpotatoe]

Have you ridden a Look 585? You'll like it and never question lugged carbon again.

Or a C-40, C-50, C-59...

[SPOKE]

Serotta Meivici........tubes & lugs made right here in the USA.
Custom built for you vs off the rack Look, Time, Colnago.....

[rockdude]

I feel carbon lugged frames are the best riding frames out there. I have a Parlee Z1 that is a magic carpet. Every time, ride a different carbon lugged bike I go wow...

[Likes2ridefar]

I'll be the dissenter...

I've ridden a number of lugged carbon frames with AL, carbon, and Ti lugs from el cheapos to super expensive and don't really see the point besides they look cool and when they first came around allowed interesting custom options that werent generally available for 100% mold carbon frames. Most were great riding bikes.

I dont think they are any better than a full carbon bike of comparable $, and can't compete with the very high end carbon bikes that are much lighter weight.

[christian]

That's not what we're talking about though. We're talking about lugged full-carbon construction versus monocoque full-carbon construction.

[rnhood]

I'll be the dissenter...

I've ridden a number of lugged carbon frames with AL, carbon, and Ti lugs from el cheapos to super expensive and don't really see the point besides they look cool and when they first came around allowed interesting custom options that werent generally available for 100% mold carbon frames. Most were great riding bikes.

I dont think they are any better than a full carbon bike of comparable $, and can't compete with the very high end carbon bikes that are much lighter weight.



I'm mostly in your camp on this. Outside the need for special geometry to suit a unique rider or perhaps riding venue, lugged frames offer nothing over modern monocoque other than greater weight. It does not mean lugged carbon are necessarily inferior, just that they are typically a bit heavier and perhaps encompassing more compromises in achieving the design goals.

In the end, I'm sure its largely academic to most riders (especially riders like us). Its probably better for one to buy what they like and keep smiling. Can't go wrong either way.

[Likes2ridefar]

That's not what we're talking about though. We're talking about lugged full-carbon construction versus monocoque full-carbon construction.

Curious what would make a lugged carbon frame different than a different lug material, besides weight?

[mack]

I personally like the truer road feedback from a lugged carbon frame vs monocoque carbon frame, the later seems, to me, to provide some dullness to the road feel, both certainly have the lightness, stiffness and snap figured out, that is....the quality craftbuilders and producers do.
Carbon frames I've ridden include; Fondriest TF1, Parlee Z1, Look 585, Trek OCLV, Giant TCRsomething, Specialized Tarmac SL, Parlee Z5sl, Colnago c40

[Likes2ridefar]

I personally like the truer road feedback from a lugged carbon frame vs monocoque carbon frame, the later seems, to me, to provide some dullness to the road feel, both certainly have the lightness, stiffness and snap figured out, that is....the quality craftbuilders and producers do.
Carbon frames I've ridden include; Fondriest TF1, Parlee Z1, Look 585, Trek OCLV, Giant TCRsomething, Specialized Tarmac SL, Parlee Z5sl, Colnago c40

try a cervelo r5 or perhaps similarly priced models (~$5k frameset) from other brands. it totally changed my opinion on monocoques just being super light, smooth, but otherwise not very inspiring.

[christian]

Curious what would make a lugged carbon frame different than a different lug material, besides weight?Ceteris paribis, other than joining technique, not much. But I'm having a hard time thinking of a lugged carbon frame using a non-carbon fiber material for the lugs which is otherwise comparable to a Time VXRS, Colnago C59, or Look 585.

[LegendRider]

Is there a functional difference between lugged and tube-to-tube construction? My understanding is the Colnago C50 has a true carbon lug. On the other hand, the Parlee Z1 has mitered tubes that are wrapped in carbon to create the joint. It looks like a lug, but might not fight the technical definition.

[1centaur]

IMO, CF joining technique MUST affect ride impressions, that's just physics, but it's not clear that very similar ride quality cannot be obtained with different joining techniques. Each builder follows his own path to the ride quality he wants to put his name on, so to the OP I advise looking at lugs not as a mismatch of old and new but as a building choice that's about the ride, not the aesthetics.

[colod]

I guess what all this means is I have to go find ways to ride as many C50s and 585s and Parlees as I can. :banana:

[colod]

Have you ridden a Look 585? You'll like it and never question lugged carbon again.

Hmmm: http://boulder.craigslist.org/bik/3685705930.html

[texbike]

Hmmm: http://boulder.craigslist.org/bik/3685705930.html

I REALLY liked my 585 but liked my C50 just a tad bit more...

Texbike

[KidWok]

I'm on an alum lugged Look KG 481 SL...swapping out a Kestrel Evoke. The Look is a bit more comfortable. More than anything, I just like the way the way lugged carbon (or at least older ones) look, especially the skinnier and mostly round tubes. The rest of the bikes are lugged or welded steel with steel forks, so I might be a bit biased.

Tai

[zott28]

I've noticed a few 585 on the bay go for a pretty reasonable price. If you're into buying used carbon take a look.
My 585 is the Optimum, which offers me a different ride than my BMC Pro Machine. Lugged and geometry wise.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BIyTtUfCIAA5IEV.jpg:large

[Keith A]

This is a very interesting topic to me as I have somehow :rolleyes: managed to acquire several lugged carbon frames. The interesting thing is that I didn't seek these out based on their construction, but rather for their reported ride qualities. I've had my Time VXR and C-50 for a while and recently picked up a 585 Ultra. They are all very nice bikes, but do have unique ride qualities.

[559Rando]

Also lugged carbon: 90s Trek 2200 and 2300.

[Climb01742]

This is a very interesting topic to me as I have somehow :rolleyes: managed to acquire several lugged carbon frames. The interesting thing is that I didn't seek these out based on their construction, but rather for their reported ride qualities. I've had my Time VXR and C-50 for a while and recently picked up a 585 Ultra. They are all very nice bikes, but do have unique ride qualities.

Keith, how would you describe their different ride qualities? Thanks.

[Keith A]

Keith, how would you describe their different ride qualities? Thanks.For me (and I'm no expert), I feel like most of the ride qualities is based on the geometry, more so the differences in the carbon usage and/or design.

Time VXR has a steeper HTA and slacker STA which I happen to prefer. It also has a very tight rear end and so it seems to respond quicker to accelerations. When I first road this, I thought the back end was going to be too stiff, but I haven't found that to be the case at all. It really does handle the best (IMHO) of the three. The only downside it is a hair bigger than what I would call my perfect size.

The C-50 has a slack HTA with a 43mm offset fork which makes for some interesting trail numbers. Honestly, when I first rode this I did not like the way the front end handled. I have gotten used to this and it's super stable at faster speeds, but it still isn't my preferred geometry configuration. The size is perfect and I love the look of it. It doesn't seem as quite snappy as the VXR, but responds quick enough when you mash on the pedals.

Finally the Look 585 Ultra. I was actually helping a friend find a bike and he was looking at the 585/595 and I really didn't know much about them and started reading what I could to give him an informed opinion. The more I read, the more I wanted to give this bike a try. So when one popped up on the forum I decided to go for it. I built this up for climbing in the mountains of North Georgia and I must say it performed wonderfully. I was a bit nervous taking an unknown quantity to descend down the mountains at 40+ mph, but I had no problems at all. It has a slightly slacker HTA (73 deg) and uses a 43mm offset fork when a lot of bikes with this HTA use a 45mm offset. It also climbs nicely and feels very efficient so that most of your power is pushing you forward. I went with a medium which has a 54.5mm effective top tube length and it's the shortest one I own, but it too fits very nicely.

One negative for both the C-50 and 585 is the steepish STA which force me to push my saddle most of the way back (I have longish femurs) and I wouldn't mind finding a seatpost with more offset, although the C-50 uses a non-standard seatpost size of 28.0mm.

In summary, my opinion strictly based on the ride & handling is that the VXR > 585 Ultra > C-50. But you know what they say about opinions :rolleyes:

Let me know if you have any other questions.

[Climb01742]

thank you, keith, for taking the time to write such a detailed, interesting reply. much appreciated. sounds like you have three enjoyable variations. ride happy.

[Walter]

I have a C50 and a '11 Madone 6.9 SSL. Both are wonderful to me.

The Trek seems slightly snappier and a slight bit more stable coming down steep downhills. The C50 seems a bit more comfy on bad pavement. Both are 99.9th percentile bikes.

[Lovetoclimb]

It seems the most coveted carbon bikes are the lugged ones:

Time, Look, Colnago

And of those I believe they are some of the only carbon bikes made in the home country at the home factory.

[Steve in SLO]

It seems the most coveted carbon bikes are the lugged ones:

Time, Look, Colnago

And of those I believe they are some of the only carbon bikes made in the home country at the home factory.

I'd add Meivici to that list.

I've owned a C50, have a Time VXRS and a Meivici and I have to say the Meivici is the best of the bunch.

To me the C50 is a Long Haul Trucker: A comfy bike that does everything well but feels just kind of there, not excelling in any particular area. Well-rounded but kind of vanilla for my taste.

The VXRS feels tighter than the C50 and seems a cut above it in the handling department, but I still have some trepidation when pedaling out of saddle...there's a lot of headtube flex. (size XL) Descending, it goes where pointed slightly better than the C50 but not as well as the Meivici.

Meivici: Tightest in the bunch, while managing to remain comfortable for a long ride. It is much more direct feeling, especially in descents, than the other two and feels more a race bike, which is my preference.

This is of course, IMHO, ATMO, EIEIO, etc.

[RkyMtn]

I have a Meivici, too, and it is a super ride. I was able to chat with Ben on the development of the Meivici frame concept and asked why use lugs when you don't have to with carbon. He said that it was the internal routing of the lugs that allowed him to develop the ride feel to mimic the lively feel of a steel bike. Initially he tried many different tube layups and buttings of the tubes and the ride only change very slightly. Once he started messing with the lugs, then things started changing and he was able to develop the super ride characteristic of the Meivici and other lugged carbon bikes Serotta produces.

[c-record]

I've owned an unbelievable number of bikes over the years. Enjoyed most of them but my current Meivici SE is the one that gets ridden and it's superb in about every way. Not just the lugs vs. tube-to-tube or monocoque but Serotta has built a fantastic bike with the Meivici.

[jpw]

is a stock Meivici a compromised ride?

[mcteague]

I have a Meivici, too, and it is a super ride. I was able to chat with Ben on the development of the Meivici frame concept and asked why use lugs when you don't have to with carbon. He said that it was the internal routing of the lugs that allowed him to develop the ride feel to mimic the lively feel of a steel bike. Initially he tried many different tube layups and buttings of the tubes and the ride only change very slightly. Once he started messing with the lugs, then things started changing and he was able to develop the super ride characteristic of the Meivici and other lugged carbon bikes Serotta produces.

This is similar to Seven Cycles use of Ti lugs on the 622 SLX (http://www.sevencycles.com/blog/category/622/). RV says the lugs not only allow full customization but enable the mostly carbon bike have more road feel than all carbon frames.

Tim

[Bob Ross]

My concern is that it seems that carbon is so useful and transformative that using it in old-fashioned steel forms (that I love) is a little like running an HDTV movie over a 20-year old vacuum-tube TV set.

OT: While the 20-year-old CRT obviously won't have the resolution of a modern HiDef set, its color balance/accuracy and true black level will be demonstrably superior to 95% of the HDTVs being sold today.

[Likes2ridefar]

It seems the most coveted carbon bikes are the lugged ones:

Time, Look, Colnago

And of those I believe they are some of the only carbon bikes made in the home country at the home factory.

This very much depends on which group of people you are riding/hanging out with.

Or if you refer to just those being mentioned a lot here on this post, perhaps it's because they are the very best of the very few carbon lugged frames being made.

And just a wild guess, but I'd question how much is actually made in the brand's home country. Most likely the Carbon comes from japan, like pretty much all carbon fiber, and then it's made into tubes somewhere in China. Maybe they makes the lug and/or assemble and paint the frames.

[rnhood]

is a stock Meivici a compromised ride?

My guess is that its the most "uncompromised" ride reflecting the very principles Serotta wanted to put in the bike. When you start altering things, something may have to give - though the main attributes probably remain.

[happycampyer]

is a stock Meivici a compromised ride?That really depends. As I have described previously, before I had a MeiVici built for me, I owned two MeiVicis that I bought secondhand—a custom SE built for a rider who weighs a little less than me (built with mostly 6.5 tubing but 8.5 tubing in the downtube and chainstays), and a stock GS (8.5 tubing throughout). I much preferred the ride of the SE. The GS was overly stiff for me (as were a bunch of other bikes that I had at the time and that I ended up selling—a "stock" Parlee Z3, Look 595, Cervelo R3 SL, etc.). If my only experience riding a MeiVici had been the GS, my impressions of the MeiVici generically would be very different. Of course, for a different rider, the tube selection for the stock MeiVici is perfect.

Of all the carbon bikes I've owned, my second favorite is a Crumpton SL (in fairness to Nick, it's a frame I bought secondhand). That frame is built with tube-to-tube construction. The ride quality of that frame and my MeiVici are very similar, so I don't know that I could say that a particular construction method results in a particular (or necessarily better) ride quality. Rather, I think that the ride quality is a function of the design philosophy and focus of the builder/manufacturer.

[Likes2ridefar]

What I'm trying to say is, there are a lot of great bikes out there made from every material available, none are really better than others when you compare at roughly the same pricepoint, and hardly anyone will be able to ride every one of those.

For ride quality, a change in PSI or tire model, or ksyrium SL to 32H box wheel, or a switch to 25 from 23c will make more of a difference than most frameset changes.

I said earlier the Cervelo R5 is the best ride to date I've been on, and that's true, but it's hanging on my rack as a frameset with a box of parts lying in wait (not enough room to store multiple bikes!) while I ride a Surly Ogre that weighs nearly 30lb's but is a blast to commute on and just as comfortable although not as fast!

[oldpotatoe]

What I'm trying to say is, there are a lot of great bikes out there made from every material available, none are really better than others when you compare at roughly the same pricepoint, and hardly anyone will be able to ride every one of those.

For ride quality, a change in PSI or tire model, or ksyrium SL to 32H box wheel, or a switch to 25 from 23c will make more of a difference than most frameset changes.

I said earlier the Cervelo R5 is the best ride to date I've been on, and that's true, but it's hanging on my rack as a frameset with a box of parts lying in wait (not enough room to store multiple bikes!) while I ride a Surly Ogre that weighs nearly 30lb's but is a blast to commute on and just as comfortable although not as fast!

Reality, what a concept.

[93legendti]

Let's all go back to 531

[jpw]

Let's all go back to 531

Er, no thanks :-)

[c-record]

is a stock Meivici a compromised ride?

I helped a friend purchase a GS carbon Serotta a couple years back and got to ride the bike a couple of times. The standard geo doesn't work quite as well for me and I that made it a little more difficult to get into a position to make power.

Other than that it was a touch less smooth than my Meivici. It was still beautifully constructed and my friend ended up with a great bike without the SE price tag.

[FlashUNC]

This very much depends on which group of people you are riding/hanging out with.

Or if you refer to just those being mentioned a lot here on this post, perhaps it's because they are the very best of the very few carbon lugged frames being made.

And just a wild guess, but I'd question how much is actually made in the brand's home country. Most likely the Carbon comes from japan, like pretty much all carbon fiber, and then it's made into tubes somewhere in China. Maybe they makes the lug and/or assemble and paint the frames.

Can't speak for the other manufacturers, but Time does everything in house, down to weaving the fibers together on these huge looms.

[dd74]

Serotta carbon tubes are made in Poway, CA., FWIK.

[Black Dog]

BMC makes their own tubes and lugs in house.

[s4life]

No love for the Colnago Extreme-C? I thought it was snappier than the C50, albeit a bit less stable going downhill. Haven't tried any other carbon lugged frame though

[rockdude]

I found the Extreme C Pretty harsh for a Lugged frame. Not the velvet ride of a Z1.

No love for the Colnago Extreme-C? I thought it was snappier than the C50, albeit a bit less stable going downhill. Haven't tried any other carbon lugged frame though

[dana_e]

I picked up a Time Edge Racer, it is cyclo-sportif model.

Lugged carbon

Blew my mind, super comfy, light, awesome.

[christian]

I found the Extreme C Pretty harsh for a Lugged frame. Not the velvet ride of a Z1.My Extreme Power is pretty harsh/stiff too. Fine for me - I wanted a "hard core racer" - but it might not be everyone's cup of tea for an all day ride. That said, when I stomp on it to get over a small roller, I fall in love every time. It takes all my meager watts and channels them right to the contact patch.

[rockdude]

My Extreme Power is pretty harsh/stiff too. Fine for me - I wanted a "hard core racer" - but it might not be everyone's cup of tea for an all day ride. That said, when I stomp on it to get over a small roller, I fall in love every time. It takes all my meager watts and channels them right to the contact patch.

totally agree, its a great race machine and is very snappy.

[s4life]

I found the Extreme C Pretty harsh for a Lugged frame. Not the velvet ride of a Z1.

Well that's the idea.. Uncompromising performance

[s4life]

My Extreme Power is pretty harsh/stiff too. Fine for me - I wanted a "hard core racer" - but it might not be everyone's cup of tea for an all day ride. That said, when I stomp on it to get over a small roller, I fall in love every time. It takes all my meager watts and channels them right to the contact patch.

I've been thinking of getting a used one but there are so many fakes out there.. Wouldn't know how to pick an authentic one

[christian]

I've been thinking of getting a used one but there are so many fakes out there.. Wouldn't know how to pick an authentic oneI bought mine from Happycampyer (who never rode it*), who bought it from DarrenCT (who never built it), who bought it from IBC/Gaulzetti, so I'm ok with the provenance of mine. And, tbh, I don't think I've ever seen a faked Extreme Power/C-series Colnago.

Given current prices, I think it's hard to go wrong with C-series Colnagos. Well, except that they're still like $700-1000 more than Look 585s. So if you haven't ridden a 585, that'd be something to look for too.

(* I think Happy did ride my Colnago a few times, but it literally looked new when I bought it. I have seen bikes in shops with loads more wear. I am doing my best to rectify this by riding it on gravel every week and crashing a lot!)

[Grant McLean]

Is there a functional difference between lugged and tube-to-tube construction? .

No.

The difference is tubes and geometry.
But that fact is not going to end the princess and the pea story.

-g

[texbike]

I've been thinking of getting a used one but there are so many fakes out there.. Wouldn't know how to pick an authentic one

I haven't seen any fake C40s, C50s, Extreme Powers, or Extreme Cs. There are however a number of fake EPSs and C59s floating around.


Given current prices, I think it's hard to go wrong with C-series Colnagos. Well, except that they're still like $700-1000 more than Look 585s. So if you haven't ridden a 585, that'd be something to look for too.


Lightly used 585s are pretty cheap and well worth the $$$.

Texbike

[FlashUNC]

I bought mine from Happycampyer (who never rode it*), who bought it from DarrenCT (who never built it), who bought it from IBC/Gaulzetti, so I'm ok with the provenance of mine. And, tbh, I don't think I've ever seen a faked Extreme Power/C-series Colnago.

Given current prices, I think it's hard to go wrong with C-series Colnagos. Well, except that they're still like $700-1000 more than Look 585s. So if you haven't ridden a 585, that'd be something to look for too.

(* I think Happy did ride my Colnago a few times, but it literally looked new when I bought it. I have seen bikes in shops with loads more wear. I am doing my best to rectify this by riding it on gravel every week and crashing a lot!)

Don't forget the V-series from Time. Stuff is the real deal and can be had for relatively little outlay.

[christian]

Don't forget the V-series from Time. Stuff is the real deal and can be had for relatively little outlay.

Zip it, homeslice! VXRS and Ulteams in size Medium s*ck monkey balls. Especially in the white and Assos limited colors.

BTW, any idea where I can get one? :p

[FlashUNC]

Zip it, homeslice! VXRS and Ulteams in size Medium s*ck monkey balls. Especially in the white and Assos limited colors.

BTW, any idea where I can get one? :p

Those things are like hen's teeth. I'm happy to have found a VXR in just the standard livery.

Unreal bikes that more folks need to buy so we have more of them in the used market.

[Keith A]

Our very own Wallymann has one of these...
http://majortaylorcycling.org/bikes/walter_time_vxrs.jpg

[colod]

I haven't seen any fake C40s, C50s, Extreme Powers, or Extreme Cs. There are however a number of fake EPSs and C59s floating around.

Texbike

I've been considering an EPS. How to tell the provenance? I have the serial #, but can't find a good place to look it up. Sorry - I'm new at this bike detective work.:cool:

[texbike]

I've been considering an EPS. How to tell the provenance? I have the serial #, but can't find a good place to look it up. Sorry - I'm new at this bike detective work.:cool:

Do a google search for "Fake Colnagos" or "Fake Colnago EPS". There are several threads out there about them. The two recurring thoughts on how to tell a fake from real is 1. the real ones have braze-on front derailleur tabs (versus clamp on front derailleurs for the copys), and 2. Get a copy of the serial number from the seller so that you can verify with Colnago that it is a real one. Also, I've heard that the sellers on ebay have listed pics of the real thing and then sent something different than what was in the ad

In fact, here is a sample from ebay that is likely a fake: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Colnago-EPS-Frameset-Carbon-Matte-Black-/200916919531?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item2ec794e4eb .

Notice in the shipping details that it specifies 5 days for handling. Seems a bit off to me...

Texbike

[christian]

I don't think that's a fake. Just looks like a used bike. He's a pretty regular seller of used high-end bike parts too. I bet it just takes time to get to the P.O. in Brooktondale, NY.

In any case, it has a f.d. braze-on, the right seat clamp, decaling looks good. That just looks like a good deal to me.

[texbike]

I don't think that's a fake. Just looks like a used bike. He's a pretty regular seller of used high-end bike parts too. I bet it just takes time to get to the P.O. in Brooktondale, NY.

In any case, it has a f.d. braze-on, the right seat clamp, decaling looks good. That just looks like a good deal to me.

You could be right, but to me it seemed like it could be an example of using pictures of an actual EPS in the ad and then shipping something that looked similar but wasn't the real thing. The 5 days handling time (perhaps to order a copy out of Asia to ship to the seller) seemed a bit strange. I'm not familiar with rural NY, but even the furthest spots in BFE Texas are only a few hours from a FedEx or Post Office.

Texbike

[christian]

Yeah, I was joking about that part - he's only 30 mins from Ithaca. But I figure he's a working man who has to get to the LBS and pick up a bike box on Saturday, pack it on Sunday, and ship it Monday. This is my regular schedule...

[texbike]

Yeah, I was joking about that part - he's only 30 mins from Ithaca. But I figure he's a working man who has to get to the LBS and pick up a bike box on Saturday, pack it on Sunday, and ship it Monday. This is my regular schedule...

Yep, I'm on the same schedule between trips.

OK, sorry for the diversion - back to our regularly scheduled program: find a Look 585/595 (or even a KG381 or 481), Colnago C series, or Time VX series and you're golden...

Texbike

[Suntourguy]

The point of lugged carbon must be to not have to make mold ($$$$$$$$). If a company will only sell a few dozen frames per year this makes economic sense. I don't know if this limits what can be done engineering wise but it must to some extent?

[TPetsch]

The point of lugged carbon must be to not have to make mold ($$$$$$$$). If a company will only sell a few dozen frames per year this makes economic sense. I don't know if this limits what can be done engineering wise but it must to some extent?

But the mold limits you to just what comes out of it, lugged frames can account for dozens of variations across all sizes.

[maunahaole]

Recently picked up a 585 Ultra in XXL. I'm amazed at how nice it is for the price that I paid. Drivetrain feels super solid. Silly light. Quick, but predictable handling. Smooth ride. There are lots of 585 frames out there for really attractive prices.

[buddybikes]

Little comment on why Trek 6.9's are built in the states. Reason is that the raw material is export controlled from the US to countries like China. It is aerospace grade that also feeds our defense programs.

[colod]

I shot an email to colnago and they responded quite quickly, and suggested the best way to tell is the bottom bracket. Fakes have a cheap, heavy steel insert while the real thing is a nice alloy insert that's filed carefully, etc. (Not the easiest thing to spot on a built bike on ebay...)
And of course that we should all just go buy a new one from our authorized Colnago dealer. :rolleyes:
Some of us have to buy the used ones to support the guys who buy new!

[texbike]

I shot an email to colnago and they responded quite quickly, and suggested the best way to tell is the bottom bracket. Fakes have a cheap, heavy steel insert while the real thing is a nice alloy insert that's filed carefully, etc. (Not the easiest thing to spot on a built bike on ebay...)
And of course that we should all just go buy a new one from our authorized Colnago dealer. :rolleyes:
Some of us have to buy the used ones to support the guys who buy new!

Cool. However, I think that the real ones have Ti BB inserts.

Texbike

[colod]

Cool. However, I think that the real ones have Ti BB inserts.

Texbike

The email from Colnago said alloy, but I guess titanium (as used in bike bits) is an alloy, right?

[Keith A]

The email from Colnago said alloy, but I guess titanium (as used in bike bits) is an alloy, right?Seems like I read somewhere that both Ti and aluminum have been used. However, I don't know the details.

[Salsa_Lover]

Real EPS have semi integrated headsets, braze on mounts and titanium bb shells,

The Chinese fakes have fully integrated headset ( no pressed in cups ) need a clamp FD and alloy BB shells

[cnighbor1]

I saw a non lugged carbon fiber Colnago frame that had been in an accident. the head tube and fork were sheared off just bhind the top tube and down tube. both tubes just were mitered to the head tube and glued. You could say it was designed strong enough because of were it failed. But looking at those seat and down tubes to the head tube relying on a great miter and some glue YOU WOULD OPT FOR A LUGGED CF FRAME I will never but a CF frame without lugs
Charles Nighbor architect

[colod]

Real EPS have semi integrated headsets, braze on mounts and titanium bb shells,

The Chinese fakes have fully integrated headset ( no pressed in cups ) need a clamp FD and alloy BB shells

Don't seem to be a ton of them for sale out there, but this one is curious (mainly because of the poor photo quality and the - gulp - 105 group).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230968841844?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

[dd74]

A sales guy at a bike shop told me to avoid the C-59 Italia "if you're over 40 yrs. old." He said it was by no means an "everyday rider" and certainly not apt to ride centuries on.

What he recommended was a Look 675. Of course he was selling Look 675s.

[Marz]

I haven't seen any fake C40s, C50s, Extreme Powers, or Extreme Cs. There are however a number of fake EPSs and C59s floating around.



Lightly used 585s are pretty cheap and well worth the $$$.

Texbike

I bought a lightly used 2006 tangerine, small Look 585 in 2011 on Ebay from USA for $700 USD. Finished building it two weeks ago. Never owned carbon as I've been riding mostly steel, Pegoretti Marcelo and Dave Moulton's Fuso.

Maybe it's the honeymoon period but i can't keep off this bike and as someone has already stated, it's like the Marcelo, only lighter. Very happy.

No more bikes to get is the only downside, as I have three keeper bikes now.

[Joachim]

A sales guy at a bike shop told me to avoid the C-59 Italia "if you're over 40 yrs. old." He said it was by no means an "everyday rider" and certainly not apt to ride centuries on.

What he recommended was a Look 675. Of course he was selling Look 675s.

Wow. I would've asked him if I really look that dumb to believe that hogwash.

[christian]

I'm 37, but I don't ride my EP every day. Because stupid work gets in the way. Also, sometimes I like to ride my other bikes. So it's definitely not an every-day bike. More like a 3x a week bike. That's probably what he meant.

[fuzzalow]

Wow. I would've asked him if I really look that dumb to believe that hogwash.

I don't think that question makes the most amusing use of enjoying this person's salesmanship talent.

I would just play out the string with this guy, play straight man to his pitch, ask follow-up questions and just let him keep digging. Any dupe can retread the same 'ol colonic expertise. Who knows, he might really be creative.

Stick 'em on the end of a pin and watch him writhe.

[Joachim]

I'm 37, but I don't ride my EP every day. Because stupid work gets in the way. Also, sometimes I like to ride my other bikes. So it's definitely not an every-day bike. More like a 3x a week bike. That's probably what he meant.

First, I would wager that the salesman has not even ridden a C59 before (btw, I did a century ride for fun last week and a lot of 45+ years on C59's). Secondly, the statement that a Look 675 will be more suitable, just takes all credibility from his initial "C59 not being good for centuries". I would wager again that a Look 675 does not ride less harsh than a C59. Typical sales talk and that is what upsets me. I would really like to ask the sales guy if a steel frame can be raced on.

[soulspinner]

Wow. I would've asked him if I really look that dumb to believe that hogwash.

Havent ridden one yet but its (C59) is getting rave reviews for its damping.........

[dd74]

I would really like to ask the sales guy if a steel frame can be raced one.
I asked him about steel as well. He said it also was too harsh for someone 39+, particularly stainless steel. He recommended the 675 once again.

[Len J]

I asked him about steel as well. He said it also was too harsh for someone 39+, particularly stainless steel. He recommended the 675 once again.

Funniest quote ever. Wonder if he realizes how absurd that comment is.

Len

[Keith A]

I asked him about steel as well. He said it also was too harsh for someone 39+, particularly stainless steel. He recommended the 675 once again.I guess I need to start riding a FS MTB...or of course the 675...or maybe a marshmallow :rolleyes:

[akelman]

Here (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.highcascade.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/HCSC_Marshmallow_bike.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.highcascade.com/blog/tag/the-marshmallow/&h=436&w=575&sz=170&tbnid=7Jyo1MjawLJNIM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=121&zoom=1&usg=__tVjaeu_CelulZA4j_B8Qpkjeny0=&docid=IZXzaYFxPK5uIM&sa=X&ei=26KCUb7sCerw0gGzhYHACA&ved=0CDgQ9QEwAQ&dur=2116) you are, Keith.

[zott28]

I really want to ride a C-40,50 or 59 now, you know...for the experience.
I couldn't imagine it be a $1200 to $1500 more exciting than what I'd paid for my used 585, but maybe if a slot in my stable was to open up and I had the cash around, and it was closes to the same color as one of my other bikes so my wife wouldn't be all the wiser...you know just for the experience. Everyone seems to love them.

[enr1co]

Havent ridden one yet but its (C59) is getting rave reviews for its damping.........

Im one who has been extremely pleased with the compliant yet responsive, lively ride qualities my C59 provides.

Would ride the C59 over my steel Master for a long distance ride as the overall bike is a few pounds lighter to pedal uphill and feel the carbon provides a little more shock absorbtion.

If ever faced being limited to one road bike, the C59 would be the keeper.


http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/3577307/view/P1010612.JPG

[colod]

Well, mainly I was looking for an excuse to want one. And you all have come through. Now to find one I can afford....

[colod]

And with that, and thanks to a PSA in the classifieds, I will be picking up an 07 C50 tomorrow. :banana:
(If it hadn't popped up I was tempted by the 585s, I must say.)

[enr1co]

And with that, and thanks to a PSA in the classifieds, I will be picking up an 07 C50 tomorrow. :banana:
(If it hadn't popped up I was tempted by the 585s, I must say.)

Cool- congrats on the decision and C50 find- definitely meant to be! :cool:

[soulspinner]

Im one who has been extremely pleased with the compliant yet responsive, lively ride qualities my C59 provides.

Would ride the C59 over my steel Master for a long distance ride as the overall bike is a few pounds lighter to pedal uphill and feel the carbon provides a little more shock absorbtion.

If ever faced being limited to one road bike, the C59 would be the keeper.


http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/3577307/view/P1010612.JPG

Id fit well on a 52 sloper. Cool calipers, thanks fer the feedback. Sweet bikes:hello:

[fvracer72]

that bike is soooo freakin' hot

[texbike]

And with that, and thanks to a PSA in the classifieds, I will be picking up an 07 C50 tomorrow. :banana:
(If it hadn't popped up I was tempted by the 585s, I must say.)

Congrats! Are you getting this one?

Texbike

[jpw]

Im one who has been extremely pleased with the compliant yet responsive, lively ride qualities my C59 provides.

Would ride the C59 over my steel Master for a long distance ride as the overall bike is a few pounds lighter to pedal uphill and feel the carbon provides a little more shock absorbtion.

If ever faced being limited to one road bike, the C59 would be the keeper.


http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/3577307/view/P1010612.JPG

what's the max tire size for a C59?

[colod]

Congrats! Are you getting this one?

Texbike

That's the one. Enr1co's (both of them, for that matter) are more my style, but this seems too good to pass up for now. Just have to do more stretching so I can reach the slammed down bars.

[enr1co]

what's the max tire size for a C59?

I ride Vittoria 25's on it currrently. Havent tried anything larger but some folks say they have been able to use 28's depending on the brand.

[Salsa_Lover]

congratulations, that is a beautiful C50

[enr1co]

That's the one. Enr1co's (both of them, for that matter) are more my style, but this seems too good to pass up for now. Just have to do more stretching so I can reach the slammed down bars.

That blue/black is beautiful and a smokin' deal as equipped. Slammed stems look cool but flip it over if more comfortable.

[colod]

Yep - thanks. Pretty psyched. And if I can't make it work for me it it will just be over on the classifieds in a few weeks for someone else to enjoy.

[colod]

Congrats! Are you getting this one?

Texbike

Well, it is smaller than I thought, and has a few more marks and nicks than I thought, but it's still a Record-equipped C50 and felt great spinning around the parking lot, so I bought it anyway. Lugged carbon thread served its purpose!

[SoCalSteve]

A sales guy at a bike shop told me to avoid the C-59 Italia "if you're over 40 yrs. old." He said it was by no means an "everyday rider" and certainly not apt to ride centuries on.

What he recommended was a Look 675. Of course he was selling Look 675s.

Man should be selling used cars, not high end bikes...

That being said, I am a few ( ok, more than a few) years south of 39 and have ridden my share of bikes...carbon, steel, Ti, lugged,tigged,fillet brazed, etc...my C59 is an exceptional ride. It handles well, is fast and very comfortable...

I only own 2 geared bikes these days...my C59 and my Ottrott. Between the 2, the Ottrott is the bike I'd choose to ride on a century, but it would be a close call.

[KidWok]

Well, it is smaller than I thought, and has a few more marks and nicks than I thought, but it's still a Record-equipped C50 and felt great spinning around the parking lot, so I bought it anyway. Lugged carbon thread served its purpose!

Sounds like a great candidate for a "Paceline Groupie"...

Tai

[Marz]

That's the one. Enr1co's (both of them, for that matter) are more my style, but this seems too good to pass up for now. Just have to do more stretching so I can reach the slammed down bars.

Doesn't look like a large drop.

[colod]

Doesn't look like a large drop.

Bought it, took it out today, and had to raise the seat another inch, but it was not bad. If I get rid of my extra inch or so around the belly it would be no problem at all.

And the bike - my first Colnago (and lugged carbon), of course, was remarkable. Believe the hype!

[Marz]

I know how you feel, when I lose my belly, I won't rock from side to side when I'm in the drops.

I'm experimenting with the handlebar height on my newly built 585 and I'm finding that a largish drop is not uncomfortable even with an extra 10kg around my waist.

OT: I hope it's not a problem with 20mm of spacers on top of stem. 15mm underneath and I'm loathe to cut steerer yet. I checked stem clamp and it clamps where expander is.

[Goldenbear]

Have to bump this. After recovering from a nasty crash on my C50 in November 2012, I picked up a lightly used (<100 miles) 585 Proteam in February 2013 after noticing, what I thought was, a crack in the head tube on the C50. Though it was my first carbon frame, I couldn't imagine a better ride.

The 585 has been AMAZING!!! I put 6500+ miles on it last year and it still inspires. Phenomenal bike. It clearly out climbed the C50 and was nearly as smooth on the rough stuff. I've just recently had the C50 checked out by some carbon experts and it checked out okay....just paint! I'm now prepping to rebuild it, and cannot wait to get it back out on the road.

I feel blessed to have two fantastic frame sets.

[Idris Icabod]

Nice bike, but the R8 kind of upstaged it! Is it yours?

[distanc3]

Acquired these recently and cant wait to see all this carbon lugged talk ;)

http://i41.tinypic.com/157iqrn.jpg

[EPOJoe]

Still lovin' the sweet, sweet ride of my Calfee Tetra Pro...

[Marz]

Acquired these recently and cant wait to see all this carbon lugged talk ;)

http://i41.tinypic.com/157iqrn.jpg

Two beautiful Look frames? Too greedy.

Sold my Small Look 585, now have regrets and would love another, white please.

[Auk]

The 585 has been AMAZING!!! I put 6500+ miles on it last year and it still inspires. Phenomenal bike.

The 585's attribute much of their ride to the unicorn mane that is interwoven into the carbon strands of the main tubes.

They ARE incredible frames.

[cnighbor1]

If You had seen the crashed Colnago carbon fiber frames I saw you would buy a lugged CF frame. At a local bike shop on the counter their was a non lugged Colnago CF frame that had its head tube separated from the top and down tubes right near the head tube due to an accident. Looking inside I saw that the two tubes had just been mitered to the HT and glued. no notable increase in thickness at HT.
Wow just for safety I would go with a lugged CF frame
Charles Nighbor

[optonj]

Have to bump this. After recovering from a nasty crash on my C50 in November 2012, I picked up a lightly used (<100 miles) 585 Proteam in February 2013 after noticing, what I thought was, a crack in the head tube on the C50. Though it was my first carbon frame, I couldn't imagine a better ride.

The 585 has been AMAZING!!! I put 6500+ miles on it last year and it still inspires. Phenomenal bike. It clearly out climbed the C50 and was nearly as smooth on the rough stuff. I've just recently had the C50 checked out by some carbon experts and it checked out okay....just paint! I'm now prepping to rebuild it, and cannot wait to get it back out on the road.

I feel blessed to have two fantastic frame sets.

Beautiful bike. I just picked up a NOS 2010 Look 595 Pro Team. Very similar to yours but with an integrated seat post. Came off of the monocoque Look 586. I can definitely tell a difference. The 586 was nice but the 595 just absorbs the road buzz a little better and transfers the power just a little more. I attribute it to the lugged frame.

[greenrositti]

Man oh man--where are you guys finding these NOS 585s and 595s? Me want.

[ultraman6970]

I have a carrera that is lugged

[cnighbor1]

Is the main use of CF lugs to avoid making a mold for the whole frame. and that cost is a lot. Molding CF lugs a lot easier.