OT: What the heck is going on in Boston tonight?

[Louis]

A cop shot dead near MIT.

A running gun-battle between cops and ???? in Watertown, explosive devices detonated by perps...

Crazy

[MattTuck]

My old 'hood. This is crazy.

Have TV, police scanner, various web sites... trying to track this in real time.

[Louis]

The Boston Globe says that they have one of the marathon bombing suspects in custody. Let's hope that this time it's true.

[MattTuck]

I appreciate the coverage, but they're interviewing a guy on live tv, and it sounds like the police are still looking for a suspect on the loose. question the wisdom.

[CunegoFan]

On another website I read, someone with a police scanner in Boston said a report was relayed to the dispatcher about the location of two suspects' apartment. Not long after there was the MIT shooting. This was a few hours ago. The suspects were probably IDed fairly quickly from the pics.

[Louis]

Yeah, they now have very good quality full-frontal pictures of both of them, so even if the Watertown guys are a completely different thing, they will very soon know exactly who the white and black cap guys are.

[MattTuck]

On another website I read, someone with a police scanner in Boston said a report was relayed to the dispatcher about the location of two suspects' apartment. Not long after there was the MIT shooting. This was a few hours ago. The suspects were probably IDed fairly quickly from the pics.

Yep, we probably won't know for certain the chain of events for a while... bottom line is that channel 5 has yet to link this to the marathon bombings, but boston globe is saying one of marathon bombers in custody from this.

they car jacked a mercedes and the antitheft in the car led police to them.

[MattTuck]

Yeah, they now have very good quality full-frontal pictures of both of them, so even if the Watertown guys are a completely different thing, they will very soon know exactly who the white and black cap guys are.

they described the suspect still on the loose as 'the one in the white hat in the photos'

[Louis]

Live TV feed (http://www1.whdh.com/video/7newslive)

They now say that one of the perps is dead.

[MattTuck]

From twitter, he's tweeting the police scanner traffic.


"One more suspect at large. Two accounted for should be revised. One accounted for. One at large." -State Police

police scanner just gave names.

holy ****.


wow! the 2nd suspect they are saying is the missing Brown student.

[gdw]

"On another website I read, someone with a police scanner in Boston said a report was relayed to the dispatcher about the location of two suspects' apartment. Not long after there was the MIT shooting. This was a few hours ago. The suspects were probably IDed fairly quickly from the pics."

BS. Do you really believe that the police would transmit sensitive information like that over the radio so that any twit with a scanner could monitor it?

[CunegoFan]

From twitter, he's tweeting the police scanner traffic.


"One more suspect at large. Two accounted for should be revised. One accounted for. One at large." -State Police

police scanner just gave names.

holy ****.

wow! the 2nd suspect they are saying is the missing Brown student.

Funny that the Reddit guys fingered the missing student as a likely suspect but discussion about it was shut down.

[Louis]

wow! the 2nd suspect they are saying is the missing Brown student.

Lots of speculation on that earlier.

Sunil Tripati

[Louis]

Funny that the Reddit guys fingered the missing student as a likely suspect but discussion about it was shut down.

Crowd sourcing at it's best.

[MattTuck]

"On another website I read, someone with a police scanner in Boston said a report was relayed to the dispatcher about the location of two suspects' apartment. Not long after there was the MIT shooting. This was a few hours ago. The suspects were probably IDed fairly quickly from the pics."

BS. Do you really believe that the police would transmit sensitive information like that over the radio so that any twit with a scanner could monitor it?

Listen for yourself...

http://tunein.com/radio/Boston-Police-Fire-and-EMS-Scanner-s146109/

[CunegoFan]

"On another website I read, someone with a police scanner in Boston said a report was relayed to the dispatcher about the location of two suspects' apartment. Not long after there was the MIT shooting. This was a few hours ago. The suspects were probably IDed fairly quickly from the pics."

BS. Do you really believe that the police would transmit sensitive information like that over the radio so that any twit with a scanner could monitor it?

The reported what he reported. Said it was a beat officer who took a report from someone who said the suspects lived in a local apartment and relayed it to dispatch. The call came in at 9:07.

[Louis]

Both names are apparently now out.

[gdw]

The link isn't working on my computer. If the initial information concerning the suspects whereabouts was put out over the radio so that it could be intercepted by the public than the Boston PD is 30 years behind the times.

[vqdriver]

Listen for yourself...

http://tunein.com/radio/Boston-Police-Fire-and-EMS-Scanner-s146109/

Tried it but times out. It's the top trending station on the tunein app right now.

[MattTuck]

Tried it but times out. It's the top trending station on the tunein app right now.

sorry, i searched 'boston police scanner' and it came up. worked for me and is still working.

https://twitter.com/MichaelSkolnik
https://twitter.com/sethmnookin

these two are doing a decent job.

[vqdriver]

Wow. Found a news radio channel from Boston. WBZ. That fire fight was nuts.

[MattTuck]

4:40am, and "bicyclists coming into work via the greenway need to be stopped!" they're coming into the crime scene...

Props to cyclists for being up and riding that early. They'll wish they took the bike path on the other side of the river this morning.

[bismo37]

Also updates here: need to refresh periodically...

http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/1co395/live_updates_of_boston_situation_part_2/

[Bruce K]

One suspect is reported dead the other on the loose in Watertown as of a few minutes ago (5:00AM local time)

BK

[MattTuck]

A cop shot dead near MIT.


Not to make wild speculations, but doesn't MIT have an experimental nuclear reactor?

[Louis]

Not to make wild speculations, but doesn't MIT have an experimental nuclear reactor?

Probably. We'll just have to wait and see, assuming they are able to clarify things in the next few days.

[eippo1]

This is insane with everything being shut down. Yes, their is a reactor at MIT. Apparently they are Brown students.

[likebikes]

Both names are apparently now out.

where?

[Bruce K]

From what I've heard:

1. Shot MIT cop in his cruiser outside Strata Bldg
2. Rob a convenience store
3. Car jack a Mercedes SUV
4. Car chase and firefight that includes them throwing hand grenades - injuring one cop
5. Suspect 1 killed and 2 edcSpes into neighborhood in Watertown
6. They are now going door to door with SWAT teams

BK

[rugbysecondrow]

When do you guys sleep?

[MattTuck]

When do you guys sleep?

Not last night. Been following it since the shooting at MIT. I used to live literally a block from Mt. Auburn St. in Watertown.... so it's a bit personal.

[paulh]

The media is saying the suspects are brothers from Chechnya.

[rugbysecondrow]

Not last night. Been following it since the shooting at MIT. I used to live literally a block from Mt. Auburn St. in Watertown.... so it's a bit personal.

Good luck with that today. I need my sleep or else I get grouchy. :)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . wondering that myself. :confused: :rolleyes:

BBD

When do you guys sleep?

[likebikes]

Not to make wild speculations, but doesn't MIT have an experimental nuclear reactor?

mit has had a nuclear reactor since 1958. the shooting at mit was a couple blocks from the reactor.

[1/2 Wheeler]

Not to make wild speculations, but doesn't MIT have an experimental nuclear reactor?

If not a "wild speculation" then exactly what is your question.

Don't be ashamed, call it what it is.

[4Rings6Stars]

These shenanigans in Watertown all went down about 2 miles from my apartment... my sister and fiance won't let me ride to work so I'm giving my commuter rig a tuneup.

Can't wait until the city is back to normal and the media leaves...

[saf-t]

http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/6254/web

[93legendti]

"The suspects were identified by law enforcement officials and a family member as Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev, brothers from a Russian region near Chechnya, which has been plagued by an Islamic insurgency stemming from separatist wars."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POLICE_CONVERGE_MASS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-04-19-07-09-32

[bikerboy337]

My family's hometown of watertown... all family and friends are safe at the moment, but have several friends and family in the area of all the activity, so we're waiting to see what is happening here. Everyone is just hunkered down waiting for this to end.

[Bruce K]

Just got in from AM ride in memory of one of our group that passed away a few months ago. Some of the group and his widow just formed "Team Eddie" for this year's Pan-Mass Challenge.

Watching the TV, drinking coffee, hoping noone else is injured and that they catch this guy alive, along with anyone else who might have helped these scumbags in any way.

Stories flying around the news of other threats, a cab stopped in Kenmore Square, 2 men detained, and the bomb squad attempting to open the trunk. It's crazy.

Soon, I will put on my Boston Red Sox hat as a way to join "Boston Day" (we are all wearing something Boston related) and head out to do errands and drop by school to set up my classroom.

Lots to think about and talk about. For everyone affected by the events that are ongoing, STAY SAFE.

BK

[cuda2k]

Keeping all of Boston in my thoughts today. Y'all stay safe while the authorities continue to close the noose on the last guy.

[AngryScientist]

just catching up on the news after a busy morning at work.

this is crazy stuff. i dont know what i'm hoping for, but i hope it works out for the best.

i honestly dont know how anyone who loses a loved one due to such senseless violence, ever comes to terms with it.

i hope the worst of it is over, and no more lives are lost.

stay safe everyone.

[MattTuck]

If not a "wild speculation" then exactly what is your question.

Don't be ashamed, call it what it is.

I suppose wild speculation would have been "they were probably trying to gain access to the MIT nuclear reactor but were stymied." That isn't my contention. Their actions seemed very desperate (car jacking, armed robbery, high speed chase, etc.) and just ending up in a residential neighborhood for a showdown with cops...

My question was pointing out that if their goal was to try to cause mayhem/violence, MIT might not have been the outlier it appeared.

[Bruce K]

Police are now looking for a green 99 Honda Civic that may be headed towards the Canadian Border (aunt and uncle live in Toronto but want nothing to do with them) - might be the sister

I missed the MA plate number but will get it soon

Controlled explosion planned at Cambridge home of these two

Tactical/bomb team at UMass Dartmouth campus searching his dorm. The campus has been evacuated. He had been on campus Tuesday for certain and possibly Wednesday.

This is like living in a bad movie -and I wasn't at the finish line

BK

[Bruce K]

Police just found the Honda

Not saying where

BK

[BumbleBeeDave]

Police are now looking for a green 99 Honda Civic that may be headed towards the Canadian Border (aunt and uncle live in Toronto but want nothing to do with them) - might be the sister

I missed the MA plate number but will get it soon

Controlled explosion planned at Cambridge home of these two

Tactical/bomb team at UMass Dartmouth campus searching his dorm. The campus has been evacuated. He had been on campus Tuesday for certain and possibly Wednesday.

This is like living in a bad movie -and I wasn't at the finish line

BK

. . . when we have BKPNN!* :banana:

*The "Bruce K Paceline News Network"

BBD

[Bruce K]

Well Dave

Stuff going on at son's school, his freind's school, and in freind's neighborhoods - it's a bit nuts

BK

[MattTuck]

This scene comes to mind...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OBYyumgzzg&feature=player_detailpage#t=2392s

[mister]

Lots of speculation on that earlier.

Sunil Tripati

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/19/reddit-sunil-tripathi-apologize_n_3117051.html

[Nooch]

ABC is still looking for the car, Green Civic, MA 116-GC7

[yngpunk]

I suppose wild speculation would have been "they were probably trying to gain access to the MIT nuclear reactor but were stymied." That isn't my contention. Their actions seemed very desperate (car jacking, armed robbery, high speed chase, etc.) and just ending up in a residential neighborhood for a showdown with cops...

My question was pointing out that if their goal was to try to cause mayhem/violence, MIT might not have been the outlier it appeared.

These experimental nuclear reactors on university campuses are actually quite safe and not easily (maybe impossible) to cause a runaway reaction in, unlike what the media would have you think.

If indeed their intention was to gain access to the reactor, not much they could have done with it.

[Louis]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/19/reddit-sunil-tripathi-apologize_n_3117051.html

Yeah, apparently baseless social-media speculation is not yet a viable substitute for patient detective work.

[mister]

also this guy. damn.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10005932/Boston-Marathon-victim-Jeff-Bauman-helped-identify-bombers.html

they blurred out the photo but i saw one that is not cropped or blurred.
you can see his whole right knee joint
you can see about 18" of his shin bone with nothing else around it, pretty much no flesh from the knee down on the left leg, just the bone

so sad

[Bruce K]

Local stations are reporting they have the green Honda.

Sox and Bruins games cancelled. The city looks like a ghost town.

Reports of lots of explosives at their Cambridge home with a controlled detonation coming shortly.

Watertown is still crazy with door to door stuff, armored vehicles, and LOTS of SWAT teams.

Everyone in that neck of the woods be safe!

BK

[Nooch]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ma-rt-9-window-cam

[IFRider]

Car was carjacked last night around the corner from my old office ... This is a little too intense for sure ... Those in Boston and subs, stay safe ...

Warren

[MattTuck]

It seems that Seven Cycles is within the perimeter in Watertown.

[wc1934]

Terrorist's father claims his sons were framed.

http://www.wnd.com/wnd_video/suspects-father-u-s-security-services-set-up-my-sons/

Someone needs to find out where in Russia he lives and give him a dose of reality.

[Louis]

Terrorist's father claims his sons were framed.

Denial is often the first response. No surprise there.

[tuxbailey]

Terrorist's father claims his sons were framed.

http://www.wnd.com/wnd_video/suspects-father-u-s-security-services-set-up-my-sons/

Someone needs to find out where in Russia he lives and give him a dose of reality.

They don't need to be on the run if they are framed. People can't deduce simple logic?

[Bruce K]

Given the number of weapons and bombs found in their home and used during the chase and firefight I think it's pretty safe to say this is not a frame-up

BK

[Ti Designs]

Be safe? There's a 19 year old kid two towns away, being chased by what can best be described as the final chase scene in the Blues Brothers, and the authorities don't want me to leave my house. If I wanted to be any safer I would need to install seat belts on my sofa...

[William]

Denial is often the first response. No surprise there.

The uncle seems to be pretty convinced they did it and that the remaining fugitive should surrender and ask for forgiveness.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t2#/video/us/2013/04/19/nr-briefing-uncle-bombing-suspects.cnn




William

[likebikes]

any more news on the honda?

[Bruce K]

Again, and according to the Commander if the State Police, they've got it and are "processing it"

But they seem to have list him

BK

[Louis]

But they seem to have list him

Yup - either he got away or he's lying dead in a corner in some Watertown basement. Obviously it's just a matter of time until they nab him. Unless he's way more resourceful than one might reasonably expect, I don't give him more than 48 hrs on the run.

[Bruce K]

New firefight just erupted in East Watertown

Lots of firing, lots of police cars and SWAT teams on the move

BK

[wc1934]

tactical units moving in - channel 5 reports a body found on a boat in the back yard in watertown - multiple shots fired etc

[Bruce K]

Boat was covered and stored in a back yard (from overhead photos)

Reports of suspect armed with a rifle

BK

[Louis]

Nobody should take excessive risks to do this, but it will be unfortunate if they can't manage to take him alive. The conspiracy machine will be in top gear if he too ends up dead.

[1centaur]

I was one of the lucky few who made it into my office tower in Boston before the "shelter in place" which is very much not a "lockdown." On my floor, I was joined by a total of 7 people, and we wasted much of our day looking at Twitter feeds (911rush anyone?) and listening to radio through our computers while trying to do work and wondering whether a "request" to stay indoors would have consequences if we went outside. Struck everyone as odd that we were miles from Watertown and the cops were not interested in our part of town but we were kept inside. A clue to the mindset was that officials seemed not to realize a bunch of people were in their offices at 7am when they "locked down" Boston at 8am - they apparently thought people would just stay home. Guess government types leave for work later....

One of the oddest things to me was looking out the window and seeing a cars to people ratio of 100 to 1. I would never expect to see that sight in a major US city again. Sent my two reports who got in home at 2 pm and the building was contacted by officials 40 minutes to say they would like the city's office towers to be emptied. The whole thing felt like dirty nuke fear (including the 3000 foot no fly ceiling) but now seems like simple "get out of our way." As I crossed the Common to get back to my car, it was mildly disconcerting to see that most of the people on the streets were either homeless (the "does anybody have some spare change" guy was talking to a nearly empty theater) and...tourists, wandering around as if stubbornly determined to salvage something of their vacation investment. I was walking faster and with more focus than anybody around me - they were wandering aimlessly and slowly, there being no businesses open to take their money.

A very strange day.

And as I type, it sounds like they are just about to get him.

[Louis]

And as I type, it sounds like they are just about to get him.

I'm guessing that it's unlikely that he'll slip away a second time.

[Bruce K]

Latest report:

Suspect is slice, surrounded, and still moving

FBI SWAT team shown moving in with heavy (.50 cal?) machine guns

Frenetic activity and reporting

BK

[echelon_john]

they're lighting the scene, moving any unnecessary officers out of the line of fire, and getting ready to move. i'm picking up drew's scanner link and getting the live police comms...it's going to be a bad day for boating shortly.

[Bruce K]

Given that the SWAT teams were wearing night vision goggles, I wonder why they're lighting the area?

BK

[Bruce K]

Now reporting suspect is wounded

Police are not willing to approach the boat for fear of more explosive devices/suicide device

BK

[93legendti]

Finally, they're sending a robot in

[vqdriver]

Given that the SWAT teams were wearing night vision goggles, I wonder why they're lighting the area?

BK

maybe so he can't see them. he looks out and all he gets is glare....

[Bruce K]

Reporters now saying there have now been up to eight explosions in succession

The backyard area is dark

Live shots and reporting is very compelling

2 more explosions

BK

[firerescuefin]

Reporters now saying there have now been up to eight explosions in succession

The backyard area is dark

Live shots and reporting is very compelling

2 more explosions

BK

Update Bruce?

[wc1934]

Reporters now saying there have now been up to eight explosions in succession

The backyard area is dark

Live shots and reporting is very compelling

2 more explosions

BK

supposedly pops from some sort of stun guns - flash guns?
man, what a scene - they are trying hard NOT to kill him.

[Bruce K]

Nothing right now

Police appear to be waiting after sending the robot in

Speculation is that the explosions were flash-bangs

Address is 67 Franklin St in Watertown

BK

[likebikes]

not understanding the honda connection, was that a red herring?

[Vientomas]

Update Bruce?

See:

http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/1cpiyo/live_boston_update_thread_part_8/

https://twitter.com/MichaelSkolnik

[Climb01742]

Sign of the times...images of boat in the yard from google and bing.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . on Streetview:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45512109,d.dmQ&biw=1258&bih=873&q=67+Franklin+St+.Watertown+MA&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x89e378195bfc6943:0x45ca5a08ed9dc5fe,67+Fra nklin+St,+Watertown,+MA+02472&gl=us&sa=X&ei=BN5xUenSHc-s0AHjv4G4BA&ved=0CC4Q8gEwAA

[93legendti]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57580534/fbi-interviewed-dead-boston-bombing-suspect-years-ago/

[wc1934]

chopper overhead - keeps shinning lights and then goes away - not sure why- police concerned that there are gallons of gas on the boat (20-40), and they he may have a suicide vest on.
Supposedly he may be wounded from last nites exchange.

[echelon_john]

explosions were flashbangs. their main concerns are:
- 1/2 tank of gas in the boat that they don't want to ignite
- suicide vest that they don't want to ignite
- jurisdiction; fbi vs. local tactical teams

[93legendti]

They are going to have to move in at some point. I'd send a trained K-9 dog to rip the tarp off and see what's going on. Hopefully, they have the capability.

[wc1934]

They are going to have to move in at some point. I'd send a trained K-9 dog to rip the tarp off and see what's going on. Hopefully, they have the capability.

I think they are using thermal imaging (from the chopper)

[texbike]

I'd send a trained K-9 dog to rip the tarp off and see what's going on.

Maybe they could use some of those Navy-trained dolphins! :)

Man, this is craziness. At this point, it sounds like he's cornered. Just wait 'em out and talk him into surrendering. They need him alive to know if this was domestic terrorism sparked by a couple of 20 somethings trying to create chaos for the hell of it or if it really is something deeper with more people involved.

Texbike

[wc1934]

Maybe they could use some of those Navy-trained dolphins! :)

Man, this is craziness. At this point, it sounds like he's cornered. Just wait 'em out and talk him into surrendering. They need him alive to know if this was domestic terrorism sparked by a couple of 20 somethings trying to create chaos for the hell of it or if it really is something deeper with more people involved.

Texbike

yup - hostage negotiator is on site
just hope he does not bleed to death beforehand

[Bruce K]

Boat owner allegedly called police to report there was blood on or coming out of the boat along with a ladder leaning on it that didn't belong

Snipers in place - now just waiting

BK

[Bruce K]

GOT 'EM

Alive

BK

[wc1934]

GOT 'EM

Alive

BK
The chicken**** coward was afraid to die.

[flydhest]

Currently in Istanbul. People here were following this story during the day and wishing for the best. This is good news that they have him.

Can't sleep because of the jet lag but have been watching coverage on CNN and Al Jazeera. Craziness.

[texbike]

GOT 'EM

Alive

BK

Fantastic!

Texbike

[firerescuefin]

The chicken**** coward was afraid to die.

Ding Ding...no problem with maiming/killing women and children...but in the end, a little bitch. In due time.

[93legendti]

Maybe they could use some of those Navy-trained dolphins! :)

Man, this is craziness. At this point, it sounds like he's cornered. Just wait 'em out and talk him into surrendering. They need him alive to know if this was domestic terrorism sparked by a couple of 20 somethings trying to create chaos for the hell of it or if it really is something deeper with more people involved.

Texbike

One of the brothers was interviewed by the FBI after a foreign govt asked us to checkup on him. After that, he went to Chechnya for 6 months. He is foreign born. His social network sites have links to radical Islamic videos. One of the brothers recieved a scholarship here. The bombs they used were very sophisticated.
They know exactly who he is and what this is about.

This isn't domestic terrorism.

On another note:

http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/19/city-of-boston-gave-subsidy-to-bombing-suspects-radical-mosque/

[firerescuefin]

To the intel and law enforcement community. Amazing work!...condolences and well wishes to those killed/injured in the line of duty.... "so that others may live" is a fitting motto.

[Ray]

I'm loving the outpouring of thanks from the Watertown people for the various law enforcement folks as they pull out after a job incredibly well done... Beautiful scene!

-Ray

[eippo1]

Glad they got him. Been a stressful day here. Was going into work around noonish, when we lost power and my wife freaked. So I got to spend a nice "relaxing" day at home. Nice job BPD

[ctcyclistbob]

Congrats to the authorities for nabbing this guy. They're getting well deserved praise from the citizens of Watertown, and everywhere tonight.

My daughter lives in Cambridge and this was a long 24 hours there also.

Thoughts and prayers remain with the victims and their families.

[MattTuck]

Glad to see this come to an end. Like I said, it's my old neighborhood. Now the emotional and physical healing can begin and the criminal justice system can work.

Directions from my old place to where the suspect was apprehended. (http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=92+Barnard+Ave,+Watertown,+MA+02472&daddr=Franklin+Street,+Watertown,+MA&hl=en&ll=42.369943,-71.17615&spn=0.007752,0.021136&sll=42.372703,-71.176476&sspn=0.007752,0.021136&geocode=FV-OhgId5O7B-ymFx7sm9nfjiTHW9PqCXiVJdg%3BFfZ4hgIdYvTB-ykZeVaqHnjjiTEZq87VTWuWHg&oq=franklin&gl=us&dirflg=w&mra=ltm&t=m&z=16)

[Louis]

The chicken**** coward was afraid to die.

You almost sound as if it would have better for him go down in a blaze of gunfire, perhaps taking a few more people with him.

[firerescuefin]

You almost sound as if it would have better for him go down in a blaze of gunfire, perhaps taking a few more people with him.

No...that's not what he was saying...he saying he was a coward...which he was.

[Louis]

No...that's not what he was saying...he saying he was a coward...which he was.

I don't think we needed him to give himself up to conclude that. Anyone who does what those guys did on Monday, attacking helpless civilians, kids, etc, is only going to be considered a hero on Jihadist circles, nowhere else.

[firerescuefin]

..

[Louis]

Wont feed the troll

I suppose I should feel honored by the fact that you consider me a troll.

Have a good night. :)

[wc1934]

You almost sound as if it would have better for him go down in a blaze of gunfire, perhaps taking a few more people with him.

You are VERY wrong in your assumptions - He was a coward and a snake -
He and his brother were part of an evil radical group that had no problem killing 4 innocent people (one, an 8 year old child) and injuring over 170.

I would have had no problem with him going down in a "blaze of gunfire", but would actually prefer him suffer a slow death.

[akelman]

He and his brother were part of an evil radical group

I'm genuinely curious why you say this.

[Louis]

I would have had no problem with him going down in a "blaze of gunfire", but would actually prefer him suffer a slow death.

It's probably better that he's not dead, so they can try to get information from him about any potential co-conspirators or other bombs they may have planted.

As far as slow-cooking as a form a execution, it's considered inhumane, but after someone's done what he did, I can understand the need for retribution. Happily, our society does rise above that.

[Louis]

I'm genuinely curious why you say this.

His high-school friends say he was a great kid. The most likely scenario is that his older brother had undue influence over him. That's not an excuse, but a potential explanation.

[akelman]

His high-school friends say he was a great kid. The most likely scenario is that his older brother had undue influence over him. That's not an excuse, but a potential explanation.

Honestly, I don't know the first thing about either of the brothers -- other than what I've read the past few days. It may well be that they're part of some vast criminal or terrorist network, but I haven't seen much pointing in that direction. Given that, I was and remain curious why wc 1934 wrote what he did.

[wc1934]

It's probably better that he's not dead, so they can try to get information from him about any potential co-conspirators or other bombs they may have planted.

As far as slow-cooking as a form a execution, it's considered inhumane, but after someone's done what he did, I can understand the need for retribution. Happily, our society does rise above that.

Don't object to anything stated above - what I took exception to was your first post which seemed to imply that I would trade/accept more loss of life in exchange for the death of the terrorist.

[wc1934]

I'm genuinely curious why you say this.

Maybe we here in Boston are receiving more news/details than are others.

[Louis]

When it comes to a final show-down with the law, as far as I'm concerned the more cowardly the bad guys are the better. There's plenty of time later to make them pay for what they've done.

[akelman]

Maybe we here in Boston are receiving more news/details than are others.

In age of Twitter, blogs, facebook, and the 24-hour news cycle, I sort of doubt it. But I'm still eager to hear why you said what you said. Would you mind providing a link?

[Louis]

Maybe we here in Boston are receiving more news/details than are others.

From what I've heard, starting in 2008 the older brother turned fundamentalist and went overseas where he learned goodness knows what, maybe how to make pressure-cooker bombs. More will come out in the coming days. His friends say the younger brother was a good kid, but you never really know, and given what's come to pass, apparently they were wrong. Obviously he changed too.

[Louis]

But I'm still eager to hear why you said what you said. Would you mind providing a link?

Here's a start: NYT link (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/20/us/details-of-tsarnaev-brothers-boston-suspects-emerge.html?smid=pl-share)

Edit: NPR spoke to friends of the older guy's gf/wife and he did more than "hit her lightly." Keep in mind that that's his father talking, all the way from Russia.

[firerescuefin]

In age of Twitter, blogs, facebook, and the 24-hour news cycle, I sort of doubt it. But I'm still eager to hear why you said what you said. Would you mind providing a link?

At the end of the day...its a SWAG right now...they could have been well funded/well trained/part of a cell...I think they were most likely trained by someone, but that's a guess...or they could be one-off psychos on a mission...but you knew that already.

[akelman]

Yeah, I read that. I don't think it provides any answers at all.

[Louis]

Yeah, I read that. I don't think it provides any answers at all.

I agree - more questions than answers right now, but the details will come.

[akelman]

At the end of the day...its a SWAG right now...they could have been well funded/well trained/part of a cell...I think they were most likely trained by someone, but that's a guess...or they could be one-off psychos on a mission...but you knew that already.

I don't disagree with any of this. Truly, I won't be at all surprised if it turns out that they have ties to this or that radical organization. But I also won't be surprised if it turns out that they're a couple of dip*****s acting on their own: one of them a serious loser, the other a promising kid who decided to follow a serious loser.

Again, I wasn't asking my question above to start a fight. As I think you know, Geoff, that's not my thing. I was and remain genuinely curious if people know something about these kids that I don't.

[firerescuefin]

I don't disagree with any of this. Truly, I won't be at all surprised if it turns out that they have ties to this or that radical organization. But I also won't be surprised if it turns out that they're a couple of dip*****s acting on their own: one of them a serious loser, the other a promising kid who decided to follow a serious loser.

Again, I wasn't asking my question above to start a fight. As I think you know, Geoff, that's not my thing. I was and remain genuinely curious if people know something about these kids that I don't.

That I do know Ari....Either way, the damage is done (to the lives of those affected)...and whether led by a larger organization or by one-offs (which are much harder to predict)...this will be mimicked and done again....probably on a larger scale.

I have a good friend...deep in the intel community...he said if we knew what didn't happen on a daily basis, we'd be horrified. He and his coworkers jokingly refer to those of us that go about our daily lives thinking its "all good"...scary ****.

[LegendRider]

What year do you think Tsarnaev's final judgment will be rendered? That is, after the trial, likely conviction, appeal, etc. is concluded.

[akelman]

That I do know Ari....Either way, the damage is done (to the lives of those affected)...and whether led by a larger organization or by one-offs (which are much harder to predict)...this will be mimicked and done again....probably on a larger scale.

I have a good friend...deep in the intel community...he said if we knew what didn't happen on a daily basis, we'd be horrified. He and his coworkers jokingly refer to those of us that go about our daily lives thinking its "all good"...scary ****.

Well, it's always about trade-offs and which rights we think are most important. Striking a balance between order and liberty is complicated. As for knowing people in the intel community, we can swap stories some day.

[wc1934]

[QUOTE=Louis;1334049]Here's a start: NYT link (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/20/us/details-of-tsarnaev-brothers-boston-suspects-emerge.html?smid=pl-share)

Edit: NPR spoke to friends of the older guy's gf/wife and he did more than "hit her lightly." Keep in mind that that's his father talking, all the way from Russia.[/QUOTE



A YouTube account with Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s name includes a playlist that features a video dedicated to the prophecy of the Black Banners of Khurasan, which is apparently embraced by Islamic extremist, including Al Qaeda.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/04/19/youtube-account-that-belongs-to-a-person-named-tamerlan-tsarnaev-had-bookmarked-videos-on-terrorism/

http://www.buzzfeed.com/scott/tamerlan-tsarnaevs-youtube-page-focused-on-islam

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/stimulus/2013/apr/19/tamerlan-tsarnaev-chechen-jihadist-boston/

[akelman]

[QUOTE=Louis;1334049]Here's a start: NYT link (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/20/us/details-of-tsarnaev-brothers-boston-suspects-emerge.html?smid=pl-share)

Edit: NPR spoke to friends of the older guy's gf/wife and he did more than "hit her lightly." Keep in mind that that's his father talking, all the way from Russia.[/QUOTE



A YouTube account with Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s name includes a playlist that features a video dedicated to the prophecy of the Black Banners of Khurasan, which is apparently embraced by Islamic extremist, including Al Qaeda.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/04/19/youtube-account-that-belongs-to-a-person-named-tamerlan-tsarnaev-had-bookmarked-videos-on-terrorism/

http://www.buzzfeed.com/scott/tamerlan-tsarnaevs-youtube-page-focused-on-islam

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/stimulus/2013/apr/19/tamerlan-tsarnaev-chechen-jihadist-boston/

Yes, I've seen all of that -- even though I don't live in Massachusetts. I guess we'll learn in the next few days and weeks what's what. Anyway, if you're in Boston, I'm very glad you and yours are safe. I hope the weather clears and you can get out for a ride over the weekend.

[Louis]

It's an interesting question - how someone becomes "radicalized" and chooses to do the horrible stuff that he does? (and it's nearly always a "he" when it comes to mass violence)

Nature? Nurture? Some inherently nasty characteristics that make one person more likely to do this that another? Something done to them when they were kids? Somehow becoming a social outcast? I'm sure folks are studying this to allow us to better understand the bad guys, but I wonder if it's just like so much else, some percentage of the population (thankfully small) is going to susceptible to whatever, be it the siren call of Jihad, or becoming the next Ted Kaczynski?

[goonster]

What year do you think Tsarnaev's final judgment will be rendered? That is, after the trial, likely conviction, appeal, etc. is concluded.

The DC sniper case is probably a good benchmark with respect to community impact and timeline, because there were a number of sticky legal issues, and the VA Supreme court ultimately ruled that Muhammad committed "murder in an act of terrorism."

Shootings: October 2003
First VA trial: Fall 2004 (conviction, death penalty)
Muhammad executed: November 2009

The real question now becomes whether the U.S. Attorney will pursue a federal capital case, since non-military federal executions are very rare. McVeigh was convicted of "destruction by explosives resulting in death", among other things, and from the list of crimes that qualify for the federal death penalty, that is the one that fits this case.

Eric Rudolph (considered a terrorist by the FBI), pleaded guilty to a long list of federal charges, in exchange for avoiding the death penalty.

[Louis]

The real question now becomes whether the U.S. Attorney will pursue a federal capital case, since non-military federal executions are very rare.

Agreed. I'm not familiar with the criteria used to make this call, but I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion in the coming days. If he has significant information to give in exchange for life, that will help him, but given the nature of the crime it's going to be tough to give him a pass regarding the death penalty.

[Ray]

The DC sniper case is probably a good benchmark with respect to community impact and timeline, because there were a number of sticky legal issues, and the VA Supreme court ultimately ruled that Muhammad committed "murder in an act of terrorism."

Shootings: October 2003
First VA trial: Fall 2004 (conviction, death penalty)
Muhammad executed: November 2009

The real question now becomes whether the U.S. Attorney will pursue a federal capital case, since non-military federal executions are very rare. McVeigh was convicted of "destruction by explosives resulting in death", among other things, and from the list of crimes that qualify for the federal death penalty, that is the one that fits this case.

Eric Rudolph (considered a terrorist by the FBI), pleaded guilty to a long list of federal charges, in exchange for avoiding the death penalty.
I think the DC sniper case is the most likely parallel, but I bet they treat this kid more like Malvo than Muhammad. This could all turn out to be wrong, but the little we know so far suggests the older brother spent six months overseas in the last year or so and came back radicalized (that's when all of his YouTube stuff started showing up), but that the little brother was always a good kid until this horrible act. I bet he cooperates as much as he can and ends up getting life, but I doubt they execute him. I bet they conclude that he was unduly influenced by his brother, who it sounds like largely raised him for the last few years.

Unless this is all wrong. Maybe he was a full participant from the earliest planning and if they have that evidence, he probably fries. And he's technically an adult where I think Malvo was still a minor, so maybe they execute him anyway. But based on what little I've read so far, this is my guess.

-Ray

[Louis]

I bet they conclude that he was unduly influenced by his brother

I'm sure that's what his lawyers will argue.

[93legendti]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/459253/20130419/feiz-mohammad-tamerlan-tsarnaev-boston-marathon.htm

[jet sanchez]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/459253/20130419/feiz-mohammad-tamerlan-tsarnaev-boston-marathon.htm

What a crazy site

[93legendti]

http://rt.com/op-edge/tsarnaev-boston-bombing-caucuses-122

Almost as crazy as our immigration "policy"

2 years ago, we could have prevented this:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57580534/fbi-interviewed-dead-boston-bombing-suspect-years-ago/

http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/oct/13/20041013-121643-5028r/

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2013/04/boston-bomber-could-have-been-deported-after-2009-conviction/

[Bruce K]

This thread has run pretty long and pretty straight

Please let's focus on the victims who are struggling to recover, both physically and emotionally, the families who lost innocent lives, the officer who was murdered and the one who is fighting for his life.

The "why" and " how" will hopefully come out soon enough.

Please don't politicize this into left or right

BK

[Chance]

I agree - more questions than answers right now, but the details will come.

Yes, a lot of questions but in my opinion there are also a lot of valuable answers already. Unfortunately we tend to not address them because there is little we can do to act on them.

One that keeps repeating in most of these cases is how these guys live a double life (or at least double mindset) where the majority of their daily contacts have no idea whatsoever about the person they are dealing with. Over and over again every classmate stated the younger brother was just a normal student like everyone else. Obviously we don’t have the ability to know our neighbors or classmates very well at all.

[1centaur]

I too was struck by the interviews with classmates who had absolutely no clue about anything even grumpy let alone dogmatic about the younger one. Maybe in this era of letting it all hang out on Facebook it turns out that real emotional intimacy with one's friends and associates is lower than ever.

[Climb01742]

I too was struck by the interviews with classmates who had absolutely no clue about anything even grumpy let alone dogmatic about the younger one. Maybe in this era of letting it all hang out on Facebook it turns out that real emotional intimacy with one's friends and associates is lower than ever.

i wonder if something the opposite might be happening. once, our private, personal thoughts were either held inside our minds and hearts or shared with only a trusted few, so what we said was, more often, what we actually felt and thought. now, on social media, what we post is seen by more people, discussed by more people, criticized by more people, in particular young people in school and college. so maybe there is more pressure to conform, to say the acceptable thing, rather than what someone might actually believe?

could social media be creating a greater divide between the private and public sides of people? we think of social media as a window to private thoughts. wonder if in some or many(?) cases it's more a socially-acceptable disguise? who knows. what's perhaps less debatable is...social media isn't any more reliably accurate than any other form of human communication.

[Ray]

I too was struck by the interviews with classmates who had absolutely no clue about anything even grumpy let alone dogmatic about the younger one. Maybe in this era of letting it all hang out on Facebook it turns out that real emotional intimacy with one's friends and associates is lower than ever.

It seems like there were plenty of clues that the older one was a pretty bad actor. Aside from the recent youtubes espousing radical religious philosophies, there was the assault on his wife, he sounded like a very withdrawn guy, he'd said on facebook or somewhere that he didn't have any American friends - that he just didn't understand them. So even if he was a nice enough guy to those he had dealings with, it seems like there were plenty of clues with him.

But the younger brother sounds like he didn't leave ANY. A really friendly guy, active socially throughout high school. good student, etc. It sounded like he really grew up in the US and was pretty basically comfortable here. His older brother was old enough to have seen plenty of nasty stuff in the old country before his folks brought them over. So unless the kid was an AMAZINGLY good actor, I think there's a really good chance he WAS the good kid most folks thought he was and just fell under his older brother's influence after he came back from being radicalized. I know in my late teens I was frighteningly impressionable - hopefully not to do anything along these lines, but if someone I'd REALLY loved and respected (and was largely dependent on) had made a compelling enough case, who KNOWS what any of us would be capable of. I'd certainly hope not - I surely can't see it. But I can't say it wouldn't have been theoretically possible. So maybe he just got pulled in by his brother in the past six months to a year. Maybe he really only had to ACT for a relatively short period of time and it was easier not to tip off a lot of people you'd had genuinely good relationships with over the years.

I don't know. The guy's clearly guilty as hell of a heinous act and I have no doubt the least he'll get by with is life in prison, but I suspect he may really have been the nice kid everybody thought he was until fairly recently. And I hope I'm wrong and that he was in deep for a long time because the thought that somebody fundamentally OK but highly vulnerable would be susceptible to being influenced into this level of evil by a close authority figure is almost too frightening to think about. Because if he could do it, there are probably a lot of kids out there who could too. Well, maybe not a LOT, but it doesn't take a lot to do untold horrible things...

-Ray

[Louis]

Obviously we don’t have the ability to know our neighbors or classmates very well at all.

This may be stating the obvious, but I don't think it's quite as bad as that. Some folks are quite genuine, an open book, and what you see it what you get. Others are more complicated and perhaps they don't share all aspects of their personality with everyone. And last, you have folks who actively set out to deceive.

[Chance]

.........

I don't know. The guy's clearly guilty as hell of a heinous act and I have no doubt the least he'll get by with is life in prison, but I suspect he may really have been the nice kid everybody thought he was until fairly recently. And I hope I'm wrong and that he was in deep for a long time because the thought that somebody fundamentally OK but highly vulnerable would be susceptible to being influenced into this level of evil by a close authority figure is almost too frightening to think about. Because if he could do it, there are probably a lot of kids out there who could too. Well, maybe not a LOT, but it doesn't take a lot to do untold horrible things...

-Ray

This may be stating the obvious, but I don't think it's quite as bad as that. Some folks are quite genuine, an open book, and what you see it what you get. Others are more complicated and perhaps they don't share all aspects of their personality with everyone. And last, you have folks who actively set out to deceive.

Not sure it’s all that possible to change to that extreme. In my opinion it’s just that a smart evil person can “act good” without compromising their true nature while a good person can’t “act evil” without becoming so. It’s basically much easier to fake being good. That’s why sickos can hide in plain sight.

[Ray]

Not sure it’s all that possible to change to that extreme. In my opinion it’s just that a smart evil person can “act good” without compromising their true nature while a good person can’t “act evil” without becoming so. It’s basically much easier to fake being good. That’s why sickos can hide in plain sight.

True, there are sociopaths and psychopaths as adults that pull it off all the time. But a young kid transitioning into being a teen doesn't have those kinds of acting chops. They don't have that kind of control over their feelings or emotions. Or at least none I've ever encountered. Or maybe I have...

-Ray

[93legendti]

A 19 year old is capable of being in the Green Berets, Navy Seals, Rangers, or any other special forces unit capable of deception, deep cover and sophistication.

In fact, as one Shayetet 13 operator told me " a 18 year old will fast rope onto a hostile boat. A 40 year old won't."

These "kids" pulled off something that the hapless shoe bomber and panty bomber couldn't.

We're kidding ourselves if we think he's just a "nice kid" gone wrong.

[malcolm]

True, there are sociopaths and psychopaths as adults that pull it off all the time. But a young kid transitioning into being a teen doesn't have those kinds of acting chops. They don't have that kind of control over their feelings or emotions. Or at least none I've ever encountered. Or maybe I have...

-Ray

I think ideology can be quite powerful and when they are religious even more so. I remember reading somewhere "ideologies and religions do not rest on facts or reality; they rest on beliefs, hopes and fears" this often leads to hate and blame. I think these things can lead good people to do heinous things, especially when manipulated by someone with an agenda.

The one that survived is just a kid. Initially I thought they should be publicly hanged, but then what good would that do, no relief for the suffering families and just galvanize others like them. I think now he should have to meet and speak with the families, see pictures of the victims and maybe he will feel just a little of the pain the people are experiencing. The jail as society deems appropriate.

[wc1934]

A 19 year old is capable of being in the Green Berets, Navy Seals, Rangers, or any other special forces unit capable of deception, deep cover and sophistication.

In fact, as one Shayetet 13 operator told me " a 18 year old will fast rope onto a hostile boat. A 40 year old won't."

These "kids" pulled off something that the hapless shoe bomber and panty bomber couldn't.

We're kidding ourselves if we think he's just a "nice kid" gone wrong.

Totally agree.

+1 for what Chance posted:

"Not sure it’s all that possible to change to that extreme. In my opinion it’s just that a smart evil person can “act good” without compromising their true nature while a good person can’t “act evil” without becoming so. It’s basically much easier to fake being good. That’s why sickos can hide in plain sight".

[Louis]

We're kidding ourselves if we think he's just a "nice kid" gone wrong.

He's now 19 yrs old. I think it's safe to assume that at some point he must have been a good kid, because 9 yr old kids don't do this sort of thing. At some point he did go wrong, the only question is why.

[akelman]

In fact, as one Shayetet 13 operator told me " a 18 year old will fast rope onto a hostile boat. A 40 year old won't."

I'll ask again, Adam, did you serve in the IDF? If so, which unit, dates of service, and commander? If not, I'll ask politely -- also again -- that you please stop using ostensible ties the Israeli military to score political points in discussions here.

[Louis]

ties the Israeli military to score political points in discussions here.

Ari, personally, I don't think this sort of name-dropping adds any credibility whatsoever to his argument. If he were to say that he was a child-psychologist, or had discussed adolescent behavior with psychologists who have studied Harris and Klebold, it would be related to the discussion at hand. At this point these connections he touts to the Mossad or Shin Bet or whatever the secret-agent man group of the day happens to be, are just like Ray's statements about the Federal Reserve - you see them, sigh, and move on.

[e-RICHIE]

Ari, personally, I don't think this sort of name-dropping adds any credibility whatsoever to his argument. If he were to say that he was a child-psychologist, or had discussed adolescent behavior with psychologists who have studied Harris and Klebold, it would be related to the discussion at hand. At this point these connections he touts to the Mossad or Shin Bet or whatever the secret-agent man group of the day happens to be, are just like Ray's statements about the Federal Reserve - you see them, sigh, and move on.

To that end I have always wondered about the Boeuf Chaîne. Is that a Missouri based Skull & Bones atmo?

[Bruce K]

I have mixed feelings on the "why" for this kid

If "why" helps us identify others like him and stop them - then great

Otherwise, I am more interested in the "how"

How did they get training? How did they get funding? How did they get supplied? How did they put together their plan?

In my opinion, these are the things we need to know to make our country safer.

BK

[Louis]

To that end I have always wondered about the Boeuf Chaîne. Is that a Missouri based Skull & Bones atmo?

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you...

Edit - OK, here's the rest of the story:

Actually, in a very roundabout way it’s related to cycling:

I was born and grew up in Haiti, which is a super-mountainous place. When I was a kid they used to call truck-drivers and their helpers “Boeuf Chaîne.” It was also applied to guys who pushed/pulled a common type of two-wheel cart. Boeuf being cow, and chaîne, of course chain. I saw it used especially for trucks that carried heavy loads from Port-au-Prince, the main city, which is at sea-level, to small towns in the mountains, but it was probably used for all trucking. It’s origins obviously go all the way back to ox-carts and by extension, guys carrying loads. Fast-forward to today – it’s pretty hilly where I ride in the St Louis area, so as I haul myself up the MO hills I thought back to those days when I used to see super-overloaded trucks grinding up Haitian hills in first gear.



Aside: As the bottom pictures show, Haiti could be a MTB-riding paradise, but there's so little infrastructure. If you go be sure to take an extra Steri-Pen or two.

http://robertgarey.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/img_0276.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkOGQPkjDKMlWIO7U8WGr6ki0A7F90h elo4DJNDWHyPyYS_lH7ow

http://www.reocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9972/Travay.jpg"]http://www.reocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9972/Travay.jpg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTbwGP-hSctw9PU_k8IvIfadYXl31eW8Mpwf896gEDAYVMkaTYk

http://www.dirtragmag.com/userfiles/haiti-14.jpeg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTwqCFAy3CaaG0sLQ2w6msE9yrbNaTuX i9gKe0e3q2EuakpxKiQ

[akelman]

Ari, personally, I don't think this sort of name-dropping adds any credibility whatsoever to his argument. If he were to say that he was a child-psychologist, or had discussed adolescent behavior with psychologists who have studied Harris and Klebold, it would be related to the discussion at hand. At this point these connections he touts to the Mossad or Shin Bet or whatever the secret-agent man group of the day happens to be, are just like Ray's statements about the Federal Reserve - you see them, sigh, and move on.

The thing is, Louis, if Adam served in the IDF, especially in one of the elite units, he has every right to say so and to use his experience as part of a claim of expertise (though it would be unusual for an IDF veteran to do so). But if he didn't serve in the Israeli military, I find his tendency to invoke its commando units, not to mention his tendency to namecheck certain soldiers, upsetting. In the end, I know I should leave it alone, but I'm not going to. Unless, that is, he says that he served, when he served, and with whom, in which case I'll back off immediately and respectfully.

[Ray]

He's now 19 yrs old. I think it's safe to assume that at some point he must have been a good kid, because 9 yr old kids don't do this sort of thing. At some point he did go wrong, the only question is why.

Right. And while its really academic as Bruce points out, I think there's a difference if he was a fundamentally nice kid and his brother just converted him to radicalism and hatred in the past year or so vs whether he's been feeling the hate and working toward this himself for the past several years.

There's something fundamentally different about an 18 or 19 year old soldier, whether fighting for Hezbolla or the US Marines or Israeli special forces, and an older "leader" who recruits and/or trains the kid(s). The kid may go into places a 40 year old won't go because they're not privy to doubt - they've been told "those guys are the bad guys, they're evil, we have to kill them, and without the life experience to really question it, they bring a lot of gung ho enthusiasm to the fight. Someone old enough to have been on one side for long enough to have thought about it, questioned it, even doubted it, and still affirmed the rightness of their direction, bears a lot more responsibility in my mind than the 18 or 19 year old kid soldier.

This feels a little different in some respects since there were only two of them (unless they were directly working with a larger organization) so the lines get blurred and the lines of command were probably a lot different than in an organized army. But there's still something about the gullibility of kids that makes me hold them somewhat less responsible, or at least morally culpable, than people with a few more years of experience under their belt. He's clearly responsible for his actions and he'll have to pay for it, but I'm inclined to blame his older brother in a very different way than I'm inclined to blame him. At least based on what little I know now - further evidence could change my mind.

And, yes, it is academic in terms of how we protect ourselves. But the reality is its going to be very tough to fully protect ourselves from these types of smaller lone wolf attacks than the big 9/11 type stuff. Its kind of miraculous this is the first real hit we've taken of this sort since 9/11.

-Ray

[Climb01742]

I have mixed feelings on the "why" for this kid

If "why" helps us identify others like him and stop them - then great

Otherwise, I am more interested in the "how"

How did they get training? How did they get funding? How did they get supplied? How did they put together their plan?

In my opinion, these are the things we need to know to make our country safer.

BK

Bruce, for me the why is more crucial. Whatever the how, if we stop one kind of how, or 50 kinds of how, someone with a twisted enough why will search out a new how. Ultimately both why and how may never be solvable, but getting to the source of why feels like a greater deterrent long-term. I know it's a debatable point, but the source of hate understood may save more lives than the how of hate...but we sure as hell should pursue both avenues.

[Ray]

Bruce, for me the why is more crucial. Whatever the how, if we stop one kind of how, or 50 kinds of how, someone with a twisted enough why will search out a new how. Ultimately both why and how may never be solvable, but getting to the source of why feels like a greater deterrent long-term. I know it's a debatable point, but the source of hate understood may save more lives than the how of hate...but we sure as hell should pursue both avenues.

There's a side of me that agrees with you Climb, but to the extent that young men are capable of far more enthusiasm that thought or restraint, they've always made good soldiers. And as long as that's the case, we're gonna always be vulnerable to their boy soldiers just like they're vulnerable to ours. At which point the why and the bigger geo/religious/political questions continue to apply to the older leaders but not so much to the kids putting their asses on the line. Same as it ever was... Which I guess is what leads me to mostly agree with Bruce...

-Ray

[Louis]

The religion vs geopolitics angle is important here, because clearly the US is in no way responsible for what the Russians have done to Chechnya. One would think that the primary gripe of any Chechen outfit would be against Putin & co. But these two guys lived in the US, not Russia, so the target was Boston, not Beslan. Presumably if they had lived in Moscow they would have been directed against a Russian target.

So again, it comes down to why they were willing to do what they did. Was it simply because they were Muslim, and therefore hated everything we stand for? We've heard that sort of formulation before, but it's way too simplistic to be useful, and obviously wrong, since only some small percentage of US Muslims take up arms against the US. Lots of disaffected young men do seem to go haywire - maybe it's a testosterone poisoning thing. That correlates a heck of a lot more reliably to mass-killing "evil-doers" than their religion or politics.

[Bruce K]

That's kind of my point

The people that want to harm us will always create a why

I believe we need to identify and cut off the resources for training, financing, and equipping these people.

If we can find the resources, we can, hooefully use the routes of these resources to identify new threats before they become real

BK

[akelman]

Eh, forget it. I'm worried that anything I might say is going to offend someone.

[Bruce K]

True, but coupled with prior warnings from Russian intelligence on the older brother, maybe even these items should have raised a warning.

It's the combination if clues that should be setting off alarms

But you are right, we have been VERY lucky but J also think the hard work of many people in our intelligence community have created some of that luck

I will be curious to see what comes from the three arrests of associates/freinds of the younger brother who he apparently stayed with on Tuesday and possibly Wefnesday night.

BK

[Louis]

Well, somehow the Russians flagged this guy. Unfortunately, the FBI Boston office talked to him years ago but concluded that he did not pose a risk. If we had an unlimited amount of resources then maybe they would have continued to keep an eye on him, but I don't think any of us want to live in that sort of Big Brother is Watching 24/7 environment. As Ari says, there's a balance that must be found, and it isn't easy.

Edit: It looks like Bruce and I responded to Ari's now edited post with much the same stuff.

[Tony T]

This feels a little different in some respects since there were only two of them (unless they were directly working with a larger organization) so the lines get blurred and the lines of command were probably a lot different than in an organized army. But there's still something about the gullibility of kids that makes me hold them somewhat less responsible, or at least morally culpable, than people with a few more years of experience under their belt. He's clearly responsible for his actions and he'll have to pay for it, but I'm inclined to blame his older brother in a very different way than I'm inclined to blame him. At least based on what little I know now - further evidence could change my mind.

He's not 8, he's 19, and not only did he knowingly and maliciously plan and create weapons that killed and maimed, but he was in a position to prevent it from occurring. He is report-ably the one who was integrated in American society, he is the one who had/has American friends who say that they would be a character witness for him. He is the one who betrayed his country (he recently became a USA citizen).

Get what info we can, then put him to death.

[wc1934]

What am I missing? It seems to me that some are willing to give this terrorist a break because he is "only 19" and was a "nice kid", did not fit the image of a terrorist/killer, and may have been led astray by his older brother.
Make no mistake - He is a cold blooded killer - They wanted to inflict as much carnage as possible -

[Louis]

It seems to me that some are willing to give this terrorist a break because he is "only 19" and was a "nice kid", did not fit the image of a terrorist/killer, and may have been led astray by his older brother.

Has anyone here really said that? I must have missed it.

I think folks are just trying to understand what happened, not make excuses or let anyone off the hook.

[Tony T]

...

[wc1934]

Has anyone here really said that? I must have missed it.

I think folks are just trying to understand what happened, not make excuses or let anyone off the hook.

Well since you asked, guess I can start with you:
On page 8 you wrote:
"His high-school friends say he was a great kid. The most likely scenario is that his older brother had undue influence over him. That's not an excuse, but a potential explanation".

and on page 11 you state:
"He's now 19 yrs old. I think it's safe to assume that at some point he must have been a good kid, because 9 yr old kids don't do this sort of thing. At some point he did go wrong, the only question is why".

[Louis]

And so how exactly is that giving him a break?

Perhaps I'm not sufficiently blood-thirsty to meet your standard of retribution, but I don't see how that shows that I'm giving him a break.

[paulh]

Ahmed Ali Al Ghamdi / 21 years of age

Hamzah Salen Al Ghamdi / 20 years of age

Ahmed Al Haznowi / 20 years of age

Probably nice kids when they were taking their "flying lessons" back prior to 9-11-2001. No take offs or landings please, just steering.

[Louis]

Those guys were all trained terrorists - I would expect nothing less of them.

We're talking here about someone who grew up in the US, had US friends who liked him. IMO that's what makes it more interesting. In fact, in a way it makes him even more culpable - treason vs a foreigner who's attacking us.

He put a bomb full of nails in front of an 8 year old kid. When he came to the US he was a 9 year old kid. I suppose for some every bad guy is just that, simply a bad guy, but I think there are differences that are worth exploring.

[4Rings6Stars]

He's not 8, he's 19, and not only did he knowingly and maliciously plan and create weapons that killed and maimed, but he was in a position to prevent it from occurring. He is report-ably the one who was integrated in American society, he is the one who had/has American friends who say that they would be a character witness for him. He is the one who betrayed his country (he recently became a USA citizen).

Get what info we can, then put him to death.

Unfortunately, no death penalty in MA. Instead we will be paying to feed, clothe and make him comfortable for the rest of his life.

[Ray]

Unfortunately, no death penalty in MA. Instead we will be paying to feed, clothe and make him comfortable for the rest of his life.

Not sure about the jurisdiction - its a federal case as I understand it, and the feds have the death penalty. So I'm not sure Massachusetts law applies to this question. I could be wrong, but that's my understanding...

-Ray

[Louis]

Unfortunately, no death penalty in MA. Instead we will be paying to feed, clothe and make him comfortable for the rest of his life.

The Federal death penalty will apply.

[firerescuefin]

A 19 year old man...set a bomb next to a child....and left knowing that the child, his mother, his sister and countless others would be killed and maimed. Given the chance...he would have killed more. I could give a rats @ss on how he became bad...lots of kids go through lots of ****...and don't become mass murderers. He left the marathon...fired off some chilling tweets and went and had a good time at a party. 2 days later he took part in the killing of a cop, tried to kill others...and put one in critical condition, and was finally captured. Ted Bundy was a bad guy...I don't need to know about his mommy issues. Regarding the real source of the problem....there are 10s to hundreds of thousands that would take his place and millions that celebrate what he did. There are state sponsored madrasas in many middle eastern countries that are turning out terrorist minds like wealthy prep schools turn out tennis players and golfers. You're not solving this problem with an nbc after school special. Only after travelling and living in the middle east (war torn countries) did I come to the conclusion that there is slim to no hope. The reality is that this problem will never go away...we can hope to slow it down and limit it as much as possible.

[Louis]

The reality is that this problem will never go away...we can hope to slow it down and limit it as much as possible.

Unfortunate as it might be, I think we can all agree on this.

[Ray]

What am I missing? It seems to me that some are willing to give this terrorist a break because he is "only 19" and was a "nice kid", did not fit the image of a terrorist/killer, and may have been led astray by his older brother.
Make no mistake - He is a cold blooded killer - They wanted to inflict as much carnage as possible -

Trying to get a better understanding of how a onetime normal kid (whether at 6 or 12 or 16 before the transition to terrorist began) turns on his adopted country just months after being granted citizenship is in no way cutting him a break. He's gonna either be put to death or rot in prison - I don't call either option a break - the death penalty would probably seem like the lesser penalty to many who've done hard time in prison.

FWIW, I don't excuse any Nazi soldier for any of the atrocities they committed during Hitler's reign. But in a sense I do blame them less than I blame Hitler and his top commanders for establishing the policies and giving the orders. That's basically the discussion we're having here. I could probably find the case of any normal friendly pre-WWII German kid who went on to become a Nazi equally interesting/disturbing/complex, and worthy of discussion, without letting him off the hook or giving him a break for the actions he took.

-Ray

[paulh]

If he survives, he might be writing out the answers to questions about his childhood.

Currently, Tsarnaev is not in good shape and lost a lot of blood, explained CBS News correspondent John Miller. The suspect has a bullet wound to what appears to be the back of his neck and another to his leg. But it's bullet wound to the neck that is actually pretty intriguing to investigators.

Of course, he and his brother were in a big shoot-out," said Miller. "But [investigators are] saying that wound to the back of the neck is very possibly a suicide attempt. They say it appears from the wound that he might have stuck a gun in his mouth, and fired and actually just went out the back of his neck without killing him. That's one of the reasons he's unable to communicate, but he can understand what they're saying. And they believe there will be a point where he will be able to talk to him.

[Louis]

What a painful irony that he's being treated in a hospital that is also at the very same time treating some of his victims.

[cmg]

Unfortunately, no death penalty in MA. Instead we will be paying to feed, clothe and make him comfortable for the rest of his life.

send him to Texas...

[Bruce K]

If he is charged under Federal laws he can be executed.

There is some quetion as to whether he is an enemy combatant and that will determine whether he has Miranda rights or not. (No Miranda if he is an enemy combatant).

From what I've read, no US citizen has been successfully charged as an enemy combatant so far, and the fact that he is a naturalized citizen complicates things.

The boat he was in looks like swiss cheese and apparently, so does he.

BK

[Ray]

If he is charged under Federal laws he can be executed.

There is some quetion as to whether he is an enemy combatant and that will determine whether he has Miranda rights or not. (No Miranda if he is an enemy combatant).

From what I understand, he'll be Mirandized, the only question is when. There's a period of time when they can exempt the Miranda rights to question a suspect on whether there's any additional immediate danger that he can shed light on - are there any more IEDs out there ready to fire, are there other's on his team about to pull off some other phase of an operation, etc. I think they have something like 36-48 hours to do this, where he's not Mirandized but what he says can still be held against him. I don't know whether that 36-48 hour period starts running from the time of arrest or the time when he can begin communicating, if he's currently unable to. I'm not sure if a judge has to approve this pre-Miranda period or how it works, but that's the only discussion I've heard of not giving him Miranda rights, except for one US Senator's call to treat him like an enemy combatant.

-Ray

[Tony T]

And so how exactly is that giving him a break?.

I don't buy the argument that he was influenced by his brother.

[Tony T]

Those guys were all trained terrorists - I would expect nothing less of them.

There is not enough evidence (yet) to assume that he wasn't a trained terrorist also.

[Tony T]

Unfortunately, no death penalty in MA. Instead we will be paying to feed, clothe and make him comfortable for the rest of his life.

NYT:

"An official said the criminal complaint would most likely include a constellation of charges stemming from both the bombings and the shooting, possibly including the use of weapons of mass destruction, an applicable charge for the detonation of a bomb. That charge, the official said, carries a maximum penalty of death. Though Massachusetts has outlawed the death penalty, federal law allows it."

[oldpotatoe]

Unfortunately, no death penalty in MA. Instead we will be paying to feed, clothe and make him comfortable for the rest of his life.

Federal charge. The US does have the death penalty altho it being used is very rare.

[Ray]

Federal charge. The US does have the death penalty altho it being used is very rare.

True, but it was used on McVeigh after OK City, which seems like a parallel type of attack, although a larger one. He seems a bit more like the older brother, who already got his. Nichols just got life in prison. And I wouldn't be surprised to see the kid ends up being seen more in that backup role and they may not go after him with the death penalty. But depending on what the evidence shows and how helpful he is or isn't in identifying anything beyond the immediate family operation, they might go after him with it...

-Ray

[93legendti]

That's kind of my point

The people that want to harm us will always create a why

I believe we need to identify and cut off the resources for training, financing, and equipping these people.

If we can find the resources, we can, hooefully use the routes of these resources to identify new threats before they become real

BK

Exactly.
Hezbullah manufactured a "why" after their stated purpose dissappeard in 2000.

These "kids" got every benefit from us. Citizenship. Scholarship. What could their complaint be with the USA, other than we aren't Sharia compliant? The "why" isn't rational. Their actions aren't rational. Islam respects/fears strength and feeds on weakness.

[93legendti]

True, but it was used on McVeigh after OK City, which seems like a parallel type of attack, although a larger one. He seems a bit more like the older brother, who already got his. Nichols just got life in prison. And I wouldn't be surprised to see the kid ends up being seen more in that backup role and they may not go after him with the death penalty. But depending on what the evidence shows and how helpful he is or isn't in identifying anything beyond the immediate family operation, they might go after him with it...

-Ray

Nichols wasn't at the scene of the attack and didn't help explode the bombs. The "kid" was and did.

"Main article: Terry Nichols
Nichols stood trial twice. He was first tried by the federal government in 1997 and found guilty of conspiring to build a weapon of mass destruction and of eight counts of involuntary manslaughter of federal officers.[176] After he was sentenced on June 4, 1998 to life without parole, the State of Oklahoma in 2000 sought a death-penalty conviction on 161 counts of first-degree murder (160 non-federal agent victims and one fetus).[177] On May 26, 2004 the jury found him guilty on all charges, but deadlocked on the issue of sentencing him to death. Presiding Judge Steven W. Taylor then determined the sentence of 161 consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole.[178] "

[93legendti]

Anyone see this?

http://in.news.yahoo.com/fbi-hunting-12-strong-terrorist-sleeper-cell-linked-064429368.html

[93legendti]

Of note:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4369837,00.html

[jet sanchez]

Nichols wasn't at the scene of the attack and didn't help explode the bombs. The "kid" was and did.


Nichols knew they were bombs. For all we know, the older brother may have told the younger brother to help him carry backpacks full of water for the runners.

[Ray]

Anyone see this?

http://in.news.yahoo.com/fbi-hunting-12-strong-terrorist-sleeper-cell-linked-064429368.html

And if the younger brother is cooperative in helping to root out these cells / co-conspirators, the government should use the death penalty vs life in prison as an aggressive bargaining chip with him. I hope he was fully tied into the planning and background on this - he'll have that much more information to share if given the incentive to give it up.

-Ray

[firerescuefin]

For all we know, the older brother may have told the younger brother to help him carry backpacks full of water for the runners.

How long did it take you to come up with that:hello:

[Bruce K]

Ideologies etc aside, bombs and all aside, he and his brother murdered three people and maimed or injured many more last Monday. Then on Thursday night, they walked up to an MIT Police cruiser and executed the officer sitting inside. They then carjacked a vehicle, threw explosive devices at police during a high speed chase, exchanged a large amount of gunfire with police, and then, in the end, tried to elude capture and even, it appears, attempted suicide.

These are not the acts of a "nice kid". If he wasn't just as radicalized as his brother then he could have said "no" at many opportunities, like when he went back to his college campus on Tuesday, attending classes and going to the gym. Or when he was hanging out with his pals in New Bedford (though they are currently in custody and being questioned as possibly being connected to all this).

I hope the Feds charge him with enough to put the death penalty in play. I haven't figured out which would be better punishment death, and therefore possibly making him a martyr, or life in prison, where unfortunately, he will get three squares, TV, gyms, education, and all kinds of perks he does not deserve.

If only we could put him in solitary. Small cell, no priviledges, no TV, no contact with the outside world.

He will have to be isolated while in custody I am sure because the threat of injury or death at the hands of other inmates is quite real. Maybe they should just put him in the yard with the general population and all go on coffee break for a while.

BK

[jet sanchez]

How long did it take you to come up with that:hello:

You'd better get used to the idea that he is an American citizen who committed crimes in America and will be tried in an American court.

[wc1934]

From what I understand, he'll be Mirandized, the only question is when. There's a period of time when they can exempt the Miranda rights to question a suspect on whether there's any additional immediate danger that he can shed light on - are there any more IEDs out there ready to fire, are there other's on his team about to pull off some other phase of an operation, etc. I think they have something like 36-48 hours to do this, where he's not Mirandized but what he says can still be held against him. I don't know whether that 36-48 hour period starts running from the time of arrest or the time when he can begin communicating, if he's currently unable to. I'm not sure if a judge has to approve this pre-Miranda period or how it works, but that's the only discussion I've heard of not giving him Miranda rights, except for one US Senator's call to treat him like an enemy combatant.

-Ray

Hey Ray
What you wrote is not quite how I understand it - I believe that they chose not Mirandized him - any incriminating statements can not be used against him (including a confession). However, that does not mean he gets a get out of jail card - just that his statements can not be used - He will still be tried and they feel confident there is enough evidence against him to secure a conviction without his statements.

Instead, they would like to interview him via the public safety exception (stems from NY v Quarles) - can interview him to determine if there are other bombs out there, who else may be involved etc.

Harvard Law Prof - Alan Dershowitz believes this is a bad idea and may open some legal loopholes.

[firerescuefin]

You'd better get used to the idea that he is an American citizen who committed crimes in America and will be tried in an American court.

....You better start coming up with better dialogue/arguments or risk being laughed out of the discussion. He hasn't been read Miranda...I would love to see him tried as an enemy combatant.....but you're right probably won't happen. He's 19...and will break soon enough if he has anything to offer...If not he can rot in isolation until they see fit to execute him.....Water bottles to the runners:help:...don't quit your day job.

[jet sanchez]

Laugh all you like, you have a sitting US Senator eager to throw legal procedure out the window all in the name of blood lust. The limited exception to Miranda was ruled upon in 1984 in a 5-4 decision and it was only meant to be for an hour or two and when there was imminent public safety concern. Now, in the name of terrorism, it is days or more while the DOJ says they are gathering intelligence.

Read this and be worried:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/20/boston-marathon-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-mirnada-rights

[Tony T]

Laugh all you like, you have a sitting US Senator eager to throw legal procedure out the window all in the name of blood lust.

How so? There is an exception to Miranda that applies in this case.
And the blood lust will come after the interrogation when he is put to death, not now.

Any chance of getting this "kid" to Gitmo and possibly some real interrogation?

[Ray]

Hey Ray
What you wrote is not quite how I understand it - I believe that they chose not Mirandized him - any incriminating statements can not be used against him (including a confession). However, that does not mean he gets a get out of jail card - just that his statements can not be used - He will still be tried and they feel confident there is enough evidence against him to secure a conviction without his statements.

Instead, they would like to interview him via the public safety exception (stems from NY v Quarles) - can interview him to determine if there are other bombs out there, who else may be involved etc.

Harvard Law Prof - Alan Dershowitz believes this is a bad idea and may open some legal loopholes.
You may be right. My understanding of the public safety exception is that its a temporary situation where they can question him for some limited amount of time with the sole purpose of determining if there are any immediate threats linked to the operation he was involved in or otherwise knows of. And that during that time, anything he says may still be used against him - I think this is different than questioning him without reading his Miranda rights in that normally any such testimony could NOT be used against him??? This is the part I'm absolutely unsure of but I believe that's the way I heard it explained. But at some point within 36-48 hours after his arrest or the beginning of the questioning period (another thing I'm not sure about), then they Mirandize him for any further testimony about the crime he's accused of, rather than future crimes that may be imminent...

This is all based on my vast legal expertise as a TV watching neophyte, so take it with as many grains of salt as you can get ahold of. Whatever it is, it sounds like it may be moot if he's not in shape to talk to them soon because if enough time has passed without further attacks, bombs detonating, whatever, the need for the exception comes into question...

-Ray

[firerescuefin]

Laugh all you like, you have a sitting US Senator eager to throw legal procedure out the window all in the name of blood lust. The limited exception to Miranda was ruled upon in 1984 in a 5-4 decision and it was only meant to be for an hour or two and when there was imminent public safety concern. Now, in the name of terrorism, it is days or more while the DOJ says they are gathering intelligence.

Read this and be worried:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/20/boston-marathon-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-mirnada-rights

I am well aware of the argument...and I don't agree with your POV or others like it that are far more worried about his rights than the prosecution of those that are involved in this, and the tracking down and extermination of anyone that had anything to do with it....somehow extrapolating his treatment out 30 years and saying that eventually this will lead to us being some sort of police state that will be torturing my grandchildren for being great folks. The Guardian most days isn't worth the paper/cyberspace its written on...mine as well as link CNBC/Comedy Central....you want to disagree....certainly your right...and many will rush to your defense and label me as (fill in the blank)...but don't put out the water bottle defense as some shining example of how this "great kid" was "tricked" into doing this.

[jet sanchez]

I am well aware of the argument...and I don't agree with your POV or others like it that are far more worried about his rights than the prosecution of those that are involved in this, and the tracking down and extermination of anyone that had anything to do with it....somehow extrapolating his treatment out 30 years and saying that eventually this will lead to us being some sort of police state that will be torturing my grandchildren for being great folks. The Guardian most days isn't worth the paper/cyberspace its written on...mine as well as link CNBC/Comedy Central....you want to disagree....certainly your right...and many will rush to your defense and label me as (fill in the blank)...but don't put out the water bottle defense as some shining example of how this "great kid" was "tricked" into doing this.

I have no idea what to think led these guys to do what they did and neither does anyone on these forums, that is my point. I have no doubt that the younger brother was a willing accomplice but, I also have been wrong about things in the past so my thoughts could very easily be wrong about this too. That is all I was getting at.

edit: I also think that it is worth pointing out that we knew he was not going to be Mirandized before he was even captured: http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/graham-mccain-dont-read-boston-suspect-his-miranda

[Chance]

As a recent nationalized American Citizen he should already know that he has the right to remain silent if he so chooses. To me all this “Miranda” discussion seems more academic than substantive. He’s going to be asked questions and he’ll either answer them or not. There is no doubt in my mind he already knows he has the right not to answer if he wants.

On the other hand if we are really talking about using undue pressure (i.e. – torture light) that’s a different matter. However, no one (in a position to decide) is saying that’s on the table.

[witcombusa]

I am well aware of the argument...and I don't agree with your POV or others like it that are far more worried about his rights than the prosecution of those that are involved in this, and the tracking down and extermination of anyone that had anything to do with it....somehow extrapolating his treatment out 30 years and saying that eventually this will lead to us being some sort of police state that will be torturing my grandchildren for being great folks. The Guardian most days isn't worth the paper/cyberspace its written on...mine as well as link CNBC/Comedy Central....you want to disagree....certainly your right...and many will rush to your defense and label me as (fill in the blank)...but don't put out the water bottle defense as some shining example of how this "great kid" was "tricked" into doing this.


Shall we start with the FBI and go up from there? :confused:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/terrorist-plots-helped-along-by-the-fbi.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[firerescuefin]

Shall we start with the FBI and go up from there? :confused:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/terrorist-plots-helped-along-by-the-fbi.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I'll give you an E for Effort.

[firerescuefin]

I also think that it is worth pointing out that we knew he was not going to be Mirandized before he was even captured: http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/graham-mccain-dont-read-boston-suspect-his-miranda

We knew....but there was the public safety argument...and the enemy combatant argument. The public safety was a no brainer...the enemy combatant is understandably (not for me, but I get why it is with others) more contentious.

[Bruce K]

All kind of moot for now as he is in a medically induced coma

BK

[choke]

Laugh all you like, you have a sitting US Senator eager to throw legal procedure out the window all in the name of blood lust. The limited exception to Miranda was ruled upon in 1984 in a 5-4 decision and it was only meant to be for an hour or two and when there was imminent public safety concern. Now, in the name of terrorism, it is days or more while the DOJ says they are gathering intelligence.+11ty billion. The rights of American citizens enumerated by the Constitution can't be taken away from an individual on a whim....or by some "exception".

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." - H.L. Mencken

[Tony T]

The rights of American citizens enumerated by the Constitution can't be taken away from an individual on a whim....or by some "exception".

The "exception" is part of Miranda (which is not part of the Constitution).
And I do not consider this "kid" a citizen, as I would suspect that he was a member of a terrorist cell at the time he became a citizen, so he did not give truthful responses when he was sworn in.

So, just revoke his citizenship, and ship him off to Gitmo.

[Ray]

+11ty billion. The rights of American citizens enumerated by the Constitution can't be taken away from an individual on a whim....or by some "exception".

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." - H.L. Mencken

Not too get too technical, but the Miranda rights were established by the US Supreme Court (Miranda vs ?? - Arizona maybe??) - they were not "enumerated into the constitution". And the public safety exception was also established/affirmed by the US Supreme Court after the Miranda rights had become accepted law. None of it was written into the Constitution - both the Miranda requirements AND the exception grew out of case law to respond to changing circumstances...

-Ray

[Louis]

Well, if he is still in an induced coma, it sounds to me like we're about to have a big discussion on exactly how far we can stretch the definition of "imminent."

[choke]

The "exception" is part of Miranda (which is not part of the Constitution).The "exception" comes from a later case, New York v. Quarles, 467 U.S. 649 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=467&invol=649).


Not too get too technical, but the Miranda rights were established by the US Supreme Court (Miranda vs ?? - Arizona maybe??) - they were not "enumerated into the constitution". And the public safety exception was also established/affirmed by the US Supreme Court after the Miranda rights had become accepted law. None of it was written into the Constitution - both the Miranda requirements AND the exception grew out of case law to respond to changing circumstances...

-RayWhile neither Miranda nor the "exception" are enumerated rights, they are cases which provide instructions and clarification for law enforcement with regard to Constitutional rights, namely the Fifth and Sixth Amendment.

As we all well know, not every citizen is familiar with the Constitution and thus the SCOTUS felt that they needed to be reminded of their right against self-incrimination. From their opinion: "The Fifth Amendment privilege is so fundamental to our system of constitutional rule and the expedient of giving an adequate warning as to the availability of the privilege so simple, we will not pause to inquire in individual cases whether the defendant was aware of his rights without a warning being given. Assessments of the knowledge the defendant possessed, based on information as to his age, education, intelligence, or prior contact with authorities, can never be more than speculation; a warning is a clearcut fact. More important, whatever the background of the person interrogated, a warning at the time of the interrogation is indispensable to overcome its pressures and to insure that the individual knows he is free to exercise the privilege at that point in time."

The "exception" is, IMO, very much in the gray area. The Constitution, with very few exceptions (i.e. Habeas Corpus in the case of rebellion or invasion) does not allow the suspending of a Constitutional right. Strictly speaking Miranda isn't an enumerated right but since it directly applies to two Constitutional rights I don't feel that it is lawful to waive a Miranda reading; obviously the SCOTUS and the DOJ disagree with me. Regardless of my opinion, the manner in which the DOJ applies the "exception" to "terrorist" cases is not in keeping with the spirit in which the SCOTUS approved an "exception".

[Ray]

While neither Miranda nor the "exception" are enumerated rights, they are cases which provide instructions and clarification for law enforcement with regard to Constitutional rights, namely the Fifth and Sixth Amendment.

As we all well know, not every citizen is familiar with the Constitution and thus the SCOTUS felt that they needed to be reminded of their right against self-incrimination. From their opinion: "The Fifth Amendment privilege is so fundamental to our system of constitutional rule and the expedient of giving an adequate warning as to the availability of the privilege so simple, we will not pause to inquire in individual cases whether the defendant was aware of his rights without a warning being given. Assessments of the knowledge the defendant possessed, based on information as to his age, education, intelligence, or prior contact with authorities, can never be more than speculation; a warning is a clearcut fact. More important, whatever the background of the person interrogated, a warning at the time of the interrogation is indispensable to overcome its pressures and to insure that the individual knows he is free to exercise the privilege at that point in time."

The "exception" is, IMO, very much in the gray area. The Constitution, with very few exceptions (i.e. Habeas Corpus in the case of rebellion or invasion) does not allow the suspending of a Constitutional right. Strictly speaking Miranda isn't an enumerated right but since it directly applies to two Constitutional rights I don't feel that it is lawful to waive a Miranda reading; obviously the SCOTUS and the DOJ disagree with me. Regardless of my opinion, the manner in which the DOJ applies the "exception" to "terrorist" cases is not in keeping with the spirit in which the SCOTUS approved an "exception".
Thanks for this - its a very helpful explanation that puts Miranda in context very well. So its not an enumerated right but it basically expands on one by merely requiring that the accused be reminded of that enumerated right in real time. Got it.

And I get that you disagree with the Court's decision on the exception, but given that they did, what would you say is the spirit of their approval of the exception? Let's leave aside this particular case, where it seems to me that the younger brother (I won't use the word "kid" anymore - seems to make some people think its a term of endearment and that by using it I somehow approve of his actions!) may be unable to communicate for long enough to render it sort of irrelevant. If there was an imminent public safety concern, the passage of several days seems like evidence enough it wasn't all that "imminent" even if it still exists. But what types of situations was the exception intended to apply to, designed for...??? And when it IS implemented, what happens to the rights of the accused who has not been Mirandized but is still questioned in a way that may lead to answers that could be self-incriminating?

I've been hearing the various reporters talk about this and I have to admit, I don't even really understand the mechanics of the exception, let alone the spirit with which it was intended...

-Ray

[Vientomas]

From Wikipedia, take it for what it is worth:

The Miranda rule is not, however, absolute. An exception exists in cases of "public safety". This limited and case-specific exception allows certain unadvised statements (given without Miranda warnings) to be admissible into evidence at trial when they were elicited in circumstances where there was great danger to public safety.[8]
The public safety exception derives from New York v. Quarles (1984), a case in which the Supreme Court considered the admissibility of a statement elicited by a police officer who apprehended a rape suspect who was thought to be carrying a firearm. The arrest took place in a crowded grocery store. When the officer arrested the suspect, he found an empty shoulder holster, handcuffed the suspect, and asked him where the gun was. The suspect nodded in the direction of the gun (which was near some empty cartons) and said, "The gun is over there". The Supreme Court found that such an unadvised statement was admissible in evidence because "[i]n a kaleidoscopic situation such as the one confronting these officers, where spontaneity rather than adherence to a police manual is necessarily the order of the day, the application of the exception we recognize today should not be made to depend on post hoc findings at a suppression hearing concerning the subjective motivation of the police officer".[9] Thus, the jurisprudential rule of Miranda must yield in "a situation where concern for public safety must be paramount to adherence to the literal language of the prophylactic rules enunciated in Miranda".
The rule of Miranda is not, therefore, absolute and can be a bit more elastic in cases of public safety.[8] Under this exception, to be admissible in the government's direct case at a trial, the questioning must not be "actually compelled by police conduct which overcame his will to resist," and must be focused and limited, involving a situation "in which police officers ask questions reasonably prompted by a concern for the public safety."[10]
In 2010, the Federal Bureau of Investigation encouraged agents to use a broad interpretation of public safety-related questions in terrorism cases, stating that the "magnitude and complexity" of terrorist threats justified "a significantly more extensive public safety interrogation without Miranda warnings than would be permissible in an ordinary criminal case," continuing to list such examples as: "questions about possible impending or coordinated terrorist attacks; the location, nature and threat posed by weapons that might pose an imminent danger to the public; and the identities, locations, and activities or intentions of accomplices who may be plotting additional imminent attacks." A Department of Justice spokesman described this position as not altering the constitutional right, but as clarifying existing flexibility in the rule.[11]

[Ray]

OK, so in the case where the court established the exception, it was literally a situation where the time taken to read the rights might further endanger public safety - the potential danger is THAT imminent! Which definitely wouldn't apply in this type of situation. And it sounds like the FBI administratively decided to relax the way it's used in terrorism cases. I dont really get how that helps them - just makes it slightly more likely they guy would say something to incriminate himself if he hadn't heard the rights while also giving up useful information about any planned attacks or booby traps left behind? Which may or may not be a legit reason, but is clearly beyond the type of situation the Court was ruling on when they granted it. So, yeah, I'd have to agree with Choke that this is beyond what the Court intended.

This has been illuminating, if not enumerating.

-Ray

[Tony T]

As we all well know, not every citizen is familiar with the Constitution and thus the SCOTUS felt that they needed to be reminded of their right against self-incrimination.

Well, since he lied when he took the oath of citizenship, it can be revoked.
"Enemy Combatant" -- Send him to Gitmo for interrogation,

[choke]

Ray - It looks like you have an answer. I linked the actual case in my reply above to Tony, New York v. Quarles (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=467&invol=649). IMO it's a pretty narrow scope but then I'm not the one making the decisions. I have trouble with any US citizen being denied their rights, regardless of the severity of the crime they are accused of committing.

Well, since he lied when he took the oath of citizenship, it can be revoked.
"Enemy Combatant" -- Send him to Gitmo for interrogation,Do you have proof of that? Even if that is true, until his citizenship is revoked....

[Tony T]

Do you have proof of that? Even if that is true, until his citizenship is revoked....

Do you think he woke up Monday and decided to kill? He was only granted citizenship 7 months ago.

Anyway, no need to revoke citizenship to classify him as an enemy combatant.

[Tony T]

WSJ: Enemy Combatants in Boston (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324235304578436841540252644.html?m od=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read)

"A row has broken out over whether the Obama Administration is violating the legal due process of Boston terror suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev by not reading him his Miranda rights before questioning. The more relevant question for the safety of the U.S. homeland is why the Administration has declined to designate him as a terrorist enemy combatant."

"The flap over reading his Miranda rights is a largely irrelevant distraction. Under a 1984 Supreme Court decision (New York v. Quarles), police can invoke a "public-safety exception" to Miranda for a short period of time. Attorney General Eric Holder has embraced this exception as a way to show that the criminal-justice system can handle terrorists as well as the law-of-war paradigm favored by the Bush Administration."

"This is why Senators Kelly Ayotte, John McCain and Lindsey Graham are urging the Administration to label Dkhokhar an enemy combatant. The Supreme Court has ruled that even American citizens—Dkhokhar is one—can be held indefinitely as enemy combatants. If he cooperates, the combatant designation can be revoked and he can always be transferred to the criminal-justice system for prosecution."

[Vientomas]

Senators citing law correctly? Hamdi v. Rumsfeld:

Justice O'Connor also limited the reach of the Court’s conclusion regarding the executive authority to detain enemy combatants:

“For purposes of this case, the enemy combatant that [the government] is seeking to detain is an individual who, it alleges, was part of or supporting forces hostile to the United States or coalition partners in Afghanistan and who engaged in an armed conflict against the United States there. We therefore answer only the narrow question before us, whether the detention of citizens falling within that definition is authorized.”

In determining that the AUMF was an Act of Congress sufficient to satisfy § 4001(a), the plurality limited the holding to the facts before it, and limited the justification for such detention to the sole objective of preventing an enemy combatant from returning to the battlefield, and then only so long as there continued to be “active hostilities.” While the government argued that by its nature, it is difficult to predict the end of hostilities, the Court stated that the possibility of perpetual detention was troubling. In a “war on terror” the beginnings and endings of conflicts can have blurry definitions and may run the risk of having no clear way to determine the cessation of the conflict. However, the Court accepted the government’s view that “[i]f the record establishes that United States troops are still involved in active combat in Afghanistan, those detentions are part of the exercise of ‘necessary and appropriate force’ and therefore are authorized by the AUMF.” The plurality did not squarely face what Hamdi’s rights might be in the event that hostilities in Afghanistan end and yet the war on terror continues.

[texbike]

That's kind of my point

I believe we need to identify and cut off the resources for training, financing, and equipping these people.

If we can find the resources, we can, hooefully use the routes of these resources to identify new threats before they become real

BK



I would suspect that he was a member of a terrorist cell at the time he became a citizen,

I really think these guys were lone wolves that may have been influenced by any number of sources. However, I doubt very seriously that they're part of a larger cell that supplied them with resources. No organizations have stepped up to claim responsibility or publicly praise the attacks. Several of the primary Chechen groups have condemned the attacks and distanced themselves from the events.

It's not like significant resources were really needed to carry out the attacks. Their weapons weren't that sophisticated or expensive to build. As for the firearms that they had, time and again it's been proven that its extremely easy to acquire guns.

I believe that these guys were outliers - nothing more.

Texbike

[93legendti]

"The victim told police he was driven to a Shell Gas Station on Memorial Drive in Watertown. Inside the car, the brothers "declared to [the victim] that they were the Boston Marathon bombers and would not kill him because he wasn't American," the report said."

As reported in the WSJ today.

"Lone wolves" normally aren't the focus of security cooperation between Russia and the FBI.

[goonster]

life in prison, where unfortunately, he will get three squares, TV, gyms, education, and all kinds of perks he does not deserve.
Apparently you are not familiar with the conditions of incarceration at ADX Florence.

Well, since he lied when he took the oath of citizenship, it can be revoked.

There are rarely-enforced reasons to revoke U.S. citizenship (see Demjanjuk, John), but "lying when taking the oath" is not one of them.

[Tony T]

Apparently you are not familiar with the conditions of incarceration at ADX Florence.

There are rarely-enforced reasons to revoke U.S. citizenship (see Demjanjuk, John), but "lying when taking the oath" is not one of them.


Put him to death, and we won't have to worry about either of these issues.

[Bruce K]

That thought was if he was tried under MA state law

Now that he is charged with federal crimes, you're right - the conditions will more appropriately fit the crimes

BK

[93legendti]

The local chief of the National Security Unit in the United States Attorney's Office, Eastern District of Michigan (a good friend of mine) initiates quite a few revocation actions:

'Section 340(a) provides two distinct legal bases for denaturalization or revocation of citizenship. The first permits the INS to seek revocation if the naturalized person has procured citizenship illegally. "[T]here must be strict compliance with all the congressionally imposed prerequisites to the acquisition of citizenship. Failure to comply with any of these conditions renders the certificate of citizenship 'illegally procured,' and naturalization that is unlawfully procured can be set aside." Fedorenko v. United States, 449 U.S. 490, 506 (1981).

Second, revocation is available if the person procured naturalization "by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation." INA § 340(a), 8 U.S.C. § 1451 (a). (3) Denaturalization on this basis "plainly contains four independent requirements: the naturalized citizen must have misrepresented or concealed some fact, the misrepresentation or concealment must have been willful, the fact must have been material, and the naturalized citizen must have procured citizenship as a result of the misrepresentation or concealment." Kungys v. United States, 485 U.S. 759, 767 (1988).'

[93legendti]

That thought was if he was tried under MA state law

Now that he is charged with federal crimes, you're right - the conditions will more appropriately fit the crimes

BK

Bruce, it looks like there are some unsolved State murders that they think are tied to the older brother. There might be State charges after the Feds are done...

[Louis]

Others may disagree, but personally I think this is a better system than tossing him out to the crowd, allowing them to tear him limb from limb.

[CNY rider]

Others may disagree, but personally I think this is a better system than tossing him out to the crowd, allowing them to tear him limb from limb.

I absolutely want to see him get a fair trial.
Then if he is convicted I want him to die an agonizingly painful death.
Drawn and quartered would fit the bill.

[goonster]

INA § 340(a), 8 U.S.C. § 1451 (a). (3) Denaturalization on this basis "plainly contains four independent requirements: the naturalized citizen must have misrepresented or concealed some fact, the misrepresentation or concealment must have been willful, the fact must have been material, and the naturalized citizen must have procured citizenship as a result of the misrepresentation or concealment."
At this point, there is no indication that any of this occurred. The statute is intended to exclude people who conceal prior convictions, are bigamists, engage in sham marriages or are hiding a Nazi past.

For the sake of argument, I'll say this: if it could be proven that he was involved in the unsolved 2011 murders, about which there is currently a speculative connection to his older brother, that might be cause for denaturalization.

Anyway, this talk is pointless, because in almost every case the objective of denaturalization is deportation. And everybody wants him drawn and quartered here, not elsewhere . . .

[93legendti]

At this point, there is no indication that any of this occurred. The statute is intended to exclude people who conceal prior convictions, are bigamists, engage in sham marriages or are hiding a Nazi past.

For the sake of argument, I'll say this: if it could be proven that he was involved in the unsolved 2011 murders, about which there is currently a speculative connection to his older brother, that might be cause for denaturalization.

Anyway, this talk is pointless, because in almost every case the objective of denaturalization is deportation. And everybody wants him drawn and quartered here, not elsewhere . . .

I don't disagree. Most of the revocations in Michigan involve sham marriages for Islamic terror members, failure to reveal prior terror convictions/associations...

[mister]

looks like there is no foreign terror connections

also read that the older brother wasn't a citizen because he had an arrest for hitting his girlfriend

the possible link to prior murder is interesting, i read some guys were found with their throats cut and weed thrown on their bodies
wonder if older angry brother killed some dudes for selling weed to little brother or something...

[Bruce K]

Little brother was allegedly dealing on campus

They had no discernible income and yet drove a Mercedez and had expensive clothing and shoes

Where did the money come from?

The older one's wife (who he hit) is now being investigated as well

Still no words on little bro's peeps who were arrested the other day ....

BK

[93legendti]

looks like there is no foreign terror connections

also read that the older brother wasn't a citizen because he had an arrest for hitting his girlfriend

the possible link to prior murder is interesting, i read some guys were found with their throats cut and weed thrown on their bodies
wonder if older angry brother killed some dudes for selling weed to little brother or something...

You mean other than the training he got overseas and his birth overseas?
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/t/video/boston-marathon-bombers-mit-shootout-suspects-overseas-training-18995944?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Ftable t%2Fs%3Fp%3Dboston%2Bmrathom%2Boverseae%2Btraining %26fr%3Dipad

[mister]

You mean other than the training he got overseas and his birth overseas?
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/t/video/boston-marathon-bombers-mit-shootout-suspects-overseas-training-18995944?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Ftable t%2Fs%3Fp%3Dboston%2Bmrathom%2Boverseae%2Btraining %26fr%3Dipad

lololol
you're saying he's a terrorist because he was born overseas???

i'm just going off what the FBI has said according to whats been reported.

[Louis]

lololol
you're saying he's a terrorist because he was born overseas???

That must explain my terroristic tendencies. :eek:

[PQJ]

That must explain my terroristic tendencies. :eek:

Me too.

[christian]

Moi aussi.

[PQJ]

Moi aussi.

So you're a terrorist who comes from a crappy rugby-playing nation?? That's doubly bad and you're probably already on a watch list. :)

[MattTuck]

So you're a terrorist who comes from a crappy rugby-playing nation?? That's doubly bad and you're probably already on a watch list. :)

and a penal colony, too!


Some of my fore bearers were Canadian... I'm the #1 threat to your maple syrup supply, eh.

[christian]

So you're a terrorist who comes from a crappy rugby-playing nation?? That's doubly bad and you're probably already on a watch list. :)No, I'm from a crappy non-rugby playing nation*. I was just further inciting the nativists by replying in a foreign language too.

* Apologies to the Swedish Rugby Association (http://iof3.idrottonline.se/SvenskaRugbyforbundet/)

[93legendti]

lololol
you're saying he's a terrorist because he was born overseas???

i'm just going off what the FBI has said according to whats been reported.


Don't be silly.
He is a terrorist who was born overseas and was trained overseas. I guess our definition of foreign differs.

The FBI claimed they didn't know who he was-then admitted they had interviewed him and lost track of him.

Since 2001, he is the 5th terrorist to be interviewed/investigated by our intelligence agencies and go on to commit a terror act.

Russia wanted us twice about him. Because of his domestic contacts? Nope.
Feel free to rely upon the FBI.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2312496/Tamerlan-Tsarnaev-Russia-asked-FBI-investigate-Boston-bomber-just-6-MONTHS-ago.html
You mean other than the training he got overseas and his birth overseas?

[PQJ]

It remains to be seen whether they are in fact 'terrorists' or if this is more akin to Columbine/Aurora/Newtown.

We know they were born overseas. We know one of them went overseas, recently, for an extended period of time. We know one of them was - allegedly - interviewed by the FBI, but for what we don't know. We know one of them is - allegedly - a stoner. We know one of them was - allegedly - more seriously devoted to Islam than the other.

Bla bla bla words words words. Many many facts we don't know. In particular, their motivation.

While no accepted definition of terrorism exists, I think it is commonly accepted that 'terrorism' has 3 elements: (i) violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror); (ii) are perpetrated for a religious, political or, ideological goal; (iii) and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians). [This, courtesy of wiki, I'll add.]

It's clear the instant bombings satisfy prongs (i) and (iii). (ii) may or may not be the case here; time will tell.

Lots of people (not just here) seem awfully certain about lots of facts for which no or scant evidence exists.

I'll add: I'd like to see us take the high road here; no (or at least little) doubt the surviving suspect deserves to die for what he did, but capital punishment is barbaric and has no place in a supposedly civilized society (I know, I know, we're probably not so civilized). If I were to wager on this, I'd say he gets sent to ADX Florence for life.

[buldogge]

Adam...He may or may not have foreign connections and/or training...but...you don't know that.

Stop posting your feelings as facts...frankly, it's tiresome.

Maybe it's time for a ride.

-Mark in St. Louis

[akelman]

Is there a way to PM all of the mods at once?

[buldogge]

Exactly...

We don't need the "state" killing citizens (any more than they already do).

Let's rise to become the "greatest country on earth" that everyone always talks/imagines about.

The high road is exactly what would separate us from "them". Hell, we can even call it "acting christian" if you like.

-Mark

It remains to be seen whether they are in fact 'terrorists' or if this is more akin to Columbine/Aurora/Newtown.

We know they were born overseas. We know one of them went overseas, recently, for an extended period of time. We know one of them was - allegedly - interviewed by the FBI, but for what we don't know. We know one of them is - allegedly - a stoner. We know one of them was - allegedly - more seriously devoted to Islam than the other.

Bla bla bla words words words. Many many facts we don't know. In particular, their motivation.

While no accepted definition of terrorism exists, I think it is commonly accepted that 'terrorism' has 3 elements: (i) violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror); (ii) are perpetrated for a religious, political or, ideological goal; (iii) and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians). [This, courtesy of wiki, I'll add.]

It's clear the instant bombings satisfy prongs (i) and (iii). (ii) may or may not be the case here; time will tell.

Lots of people (not just here) seem awfully certain about lots of facts for which no or scant evidence exists.

I'll add: I'd like to see us take the high road here; no (or at least little) doubt the surviving suspect deserves to die for what he did, but capital punishment is barbaric and has no place in a supposedly civilized society (I know, I know, we're probably not so civilized). If I were to wager on this, I'd say he gets sent to ADX Florence for life.

[PQJ]

Is there a way to PM all of the mods at once?

There is; I've been complained about by one of the fellows here (on the forums; not in this thread) to pretty much all of them simultaneously. To his credit, he included me as well.