A Conundrum... help me decide.

[Nooch]

I've been planning my next bike for a while... well, frame, at least, I've got the rest of the components, a bit of a hobbled 'joe racer' build if you will.

And at first, I've been staunch in planning on it being a Ti racing bike, non-custom geometry, that happens to be a new model just making it to market..

But then I toyed with the idea of getting a custom tig steel rig from a respected builder, and knowing how well regarded they are, I know this wouldn't be a bad decision at all. It would have custom paint, I'd consider this more of a sentimental purchase..

Originally I just planned on getting both -- and then the wife happened to mention that I'd be looking for someplace new to live if I pushed forward with that idea...

About me: I've never ridden either steel or ti. My go to bike is my caad9, which performs wonderfully, and I don't know anything else, really. The one thing I don't like about the caad9 is I think I should have sized down to a 50cm frame instead of a 52 -- i went longer and lower to get some more weight over the front wheel, but it's a little bit of a stretch where I'm at -- I can ride it for hours, but I can't definitively say that it's comfortable. Other than the caad9, I semi-regularly ride my Specialized CruX, again, not much of a benchmark..

Riding will vary anywhere from fast group rides, to commuting, to crit and circuit racing, to long days climbing (reluctantly) the hills of NNJ and the Hudson Valley.

The Ti bike would have stock, racing geometry. The steel bike could be custom, though I don't know that I have any really special fit issues that necessitate it.

I know the Ti bike could be a lifetime frame -- it would be raw/brushed, and would look good year in and year out.. the steel bike would likely need to be refinished every so often. I do tend to 'put it away wet,' if you will. While I'm diligent in maintaining my drivetrain, I don't have the means to always wash the bike the way it deserves..

So I'm a little torn. Right now my daughter is 6 months old, and I've already come to terms with the fact that I may not be racing much at all this year, and who knows about the future. So for racing 5-10 times/year, is the ti race bike really the right bike for me?

The final factor is the cost.. the ti race bike would cost me less out of pocket than the steel... so there's that.

I know there's no wrong decision here, really.. I guess I just need some help organizing my thoughts and priorities with the decision... If I get the ti bike now, there will always be a chance to get the steel bike down the line, after we move, have more room, have more money, etc...

[oldpotatoe]

I've been planning my next bike for a while... well, frame, at least, I've got the rest of the components, a bit of a hobbled 'joe racer' build if you will.

And at first, I've been staunch in planning on it being a Ti racing bike, non-custom geometry, that happens to be a new model just making it to market..

But then I toyed with the idea of getting a custom tig steel rig from a respected builder, and knowing how well regarded they are, I know this wouldn't be a bad decision at all. It would have custom paint, I'd consider this more of a sentimental purchase..

Originally I just planned on getting both -- and then the wife happened to mention that I'd be looking for someplace new to live if I pushed forward with that idea...

About me: I've never ridden either steel or ti. My go to bike is my caad9, which performs wonderfully, and I don't know anything else, really. The one thing I don't like about the caad9 is I think I should have sized down to a 50cm frame instead of a 52 -- i went longer and lower to get some more weight over the front wheel, but it's a little bit of a stretch where I'm at -- I can ride it for hours, but I can't definitively say that it's comfortable. Other than the caad9, I semi-regularly ride my Specialized CruX, again, not much of a benchmark..

Riding will vary anywhere from fast group rides, to commuting, to crit and circuit racing, to long days climbing (reluctantly) the hills of NNJ and the Hudson Valley.

The Ti bike would have stock, racing geometry. The steel bike could be custom, though I don't know that I have any really special fit issues that necessitate it.

I know the Ti bike could be a lifetime frame -- it would be raw/brushed, and would look good year in and year out.. the steel bike would likely need to be refinished every so often. I do tend to 'put it away wet,' if you will. While I'm diligent in maintaining my drivetrain, I don't have the means to always wash the bike the way it deserves..

So I'm a little torn. Right now my daughter is 6 months old, and I've already come to terms with the fact that I may not be racing much at all this year, and who knows about the future. So for racing 5-10 times/year, is the ti race bike really the right bike for me?

The final factor is the cost.. the ti race bike would cost me less out of pocket than the steel... so there's that.

I know there's no wrong decision here, really.. I guess I just need some help organizing my thoughts and priorities with the decision... If I get the ti bike now, there will always be a chance to get the steel bike down the line, after we move, have more room, have more money, etc...

I think ya need to try to ride each, even if not the ideal size, for a lengthy test ride..to see if ya like the ride..if possible.

If that isn't possible, a ti all-rounder would be a great choice, particularly if it's cheaper than the steel and fits you well.

I have lots of steel bikes/frames and a ti framed bicycle and if I could only have one bicycle, it would be the ti frame..Does all I ask of it, VERY durable, all weather bike as well.

[cdn_bacon]

Drink the Ti Kool-Aid.

you will appreciate it more coming from the CAAD. Ti is definitely an all day bike.

I never thought I would actually get the chance to own one. But a frame has generously been provided to me. And I could sit on that all day long. It's still snappy like the aluminum I used to ride. But I find it quiet on the body.

[Nooch]

I think ya need to try to ride each, even if not the ideal size, for a lengthy test ride..to see if ya like the ride..if possible.

If that isn't possible, a ti all-rounder would be a great choice, particularly if it's cheaper than the steel and fits you well.

I have lots of steel bikes/frames and a ti framed bicycle and if I could only have one bicycle, it would be the ti frame..Does all I ask of it, VERY durable, all weather bike as well.

Problem with the Ti is that it won't be an all rounder... it'll be a balls-to-the-wall race bike..

Granted I use my caad9 as an all-rounder, throw 28's on it in the winter, commute, race, etc, I'm not sure if this bike would have the same capability..

[ergott]

I would get the ti bike now. It's a great ride and forget frame material. Best part of my aluminium bike is it's anodized instead of painted. I love having a bike with a finish I don't worry about at all.

Painted bikes look great new and show their ride history with pride. Nothing wrong with that if you know that in the first place.

[ergott]

Problem with the Ti is that it won't be an all rounder... it'll be a balls-to-the-wall race bike..


Curious what the ti bike is. There are some nice inexpensive offerings.

[AngryScientist]

i've got a lot of thoughts on the matter.

why dont we go for a ride one of these coming weekends. i'll ride your beercan on wheels and you can take either my steel or ti bike. i'll have you convinced of the right decision by mile 28.

[Nooch]

Curious what the ti bike is. There are some nice inexpensive offerings.

It's not necessarily that it's inexpensive, although it is far cheaper than their other offerings, but it's price is a benefit of being an employee....

[Nooch]

i've got a lot of thoughts on the matter.

why dont we go for a ride one of these coming weekends. i'll ride your beercan on wheels and you can take either my steel or ti bike. i'll have you convinced of the right decision by mile 28.

this might very well be helpful!! Let me know when -- we can leave from my place and do closter dock to 9w..

[oldpotatoe]

Problem with the Ti is that it won't be an all rounder... it'll be a balls-to-the-wall race bike..

Granted I use my caad9 as an all-rounder, throw 28's on it in the winter, commute, race, etc, I'm not sure if this bike would have the same capability..

Maybe a poor choice of words. A ti frame can be raced no problem at all. Even balls to the wall, type racing. AND crash it hard and it probably won't die. If it does, you will hear about it from a hospital bed.

AND, Nooch writes-"It's not necessarily that it's inexpensive, although it is far cheaper than their other offerings, but it's price is a benefit of being an employee.."

I hear ya brother..there are some benefits to working 'in the industry'..you bethcha.

[Nooch]

Maybe a poor choice of words. A ti frame can be raced no problem at all. Even balls to the wall, type racing. AND crash it hard and it probably won't die. If it does, you will hear about it from a hospital bed.

a poor choice on my end, too -- my consideration in all-rounder vs. 'balls-to-the-wall' is the geometry... while I'm 28 and somewhat flexible, an aggressive geo like this one could work for all-rounder duties (the same as I ride my caad9), but I'd imagine an all-rounder to be slightly less aggressive, possibly with some fender mounts, which wouldn't be an option here..

[christian]

You keeping the CAAD9 and the Crux?

First things first, I'd effect a swap of the CAAD9 to a 50 if that fits you better. Then I'd make some decisions based on whether you're keeping the above.

[oldpotatoe]

a poor choice on my end, too -- my consideration in all-rounder vs. 'balls-to-the-wall' is the geometry... while I'm 28 and somewhat flexible, an aggressive geo like this one could work for all-rounder duties (the same as I ride my caad9), but I'd imagine an all-rounder to be slightly less aggressive, possibly with some fender mounts, which wouldn't be an option here..

No doubt, fit trumps everything...

[fuzzalow]

Problem with the Ti is that it won't be an all rounder... it'll be a balls-to-the-wall race bike..

Whether the bike is an all rounder or a full-on race bike depends on how it is fit to the rider and how it is setup. Short of specialized geometries, for example track or rando geos, I subscribe to the view that there is not that much between road bike geos that can't be made to work well.

It is easy to take a good bike and screw it up with a bad fit. (tm)

[Nooch]

You keeping the CAAD9 and the Crux?

First things first, I'd effect a swap of the CAAD9 to a 50 if that fits you better. Then I'd make some decisions based on whether you're keeping the above.

I would be planning on keeping both, yeah, this would be an addition.. I'm not necessarily sold on trading frames, and haven't had the resources/opportunity to grab a 50cm frame to sample.. and I'm basing that all on the longer/lower principle that the jerk laid out however long ago here on these pages, that with a 1cm shorter top tube and a 1cm longer stem, the weight might be better distributed...

[ergott]

a poor choice on my end, too -- my consideration in all-rounder vs. 'balls-to-the-wall' is the geometry... while I'm 28 and somewhat flexible, an aggressive geo like this one could work for all-rounder duties (the same as I ride my caad9), but I'd imagine an all-rounder to be slightly less aggressive, possibly with some fender mounts, which wouldn't be an option here..

For me position comes first. I want all'rounder bits added to a frame that gets me there first and foremost. If the position works for long, balls to the wall races, it works for everything else I do. I've been trying to get my Zank setup as close to my road bike as possible. Still need a longer stem at this point, but it's only 1cm. The drop is the same.

I still want to know what ti bike simply out of curiosity. If you are comparing a shop deal ti bike to a custom steel which you probably aren't getting a break on, I'm leaning even more towards the ti bike. I love custom bikes, but EP is too good to resist, especially if you don't have any weird fit problems.

[Nooch]

An argument for comparison between the ti bike and my current caad9:

Ti Race Bike:
ST c-c: 48cm
TT: 53.0
ST angle: 73.5
HT angle: 72.5
TT Slope: 4*
Chainstay: 40.6
Fork Rake: 4.3
Front Center: 56.6
HT length: 10.8
BB Drop: 7

Caad9:
TT: 53.5
ST: 50
STA: 74*
HTA: 73*
Chainstay: 40.5
Fork Rake: 4.5
BB Drop: 7.2
Front Center: 57.4
HT Length: 12

Going to a 50cm on the ti just won't do, as the headtube is only 9.5cm, which I'm thinking is just going to be way too short for me.. i could reach it, but I think I'd have a bit of knee to gut interference...

[EDS]

For me position comes first. I want all'rounder bits added to a frame that gets me there first and foremost. If the position works for long, balls to the wall races, it works for everything else I do. I've been trying to get my Zank setup as close to my road bike as possible. Still need a longer stem at this point, but it's only 1cm. The drop is the same.

I still want to know what ti bike simply out of curiosity. If you are comparing a shop deal ti bike to a custom steel which you probably aren't getting a break on, I'm leaning even more towards the ti bike. I love custom bikes, but EP is too good to resist, especially if you don't have any weird fit problems.

He is in my mind obviously talking about a Serotta Pronto.

I doubt the Pronto's final geo will be such that it can't work as an all day/every day bike. I have Serotta's prior attempt at a Ti race bike, the HSG Ti, and it works fine for all the riding I do (except when I am on my other bike, which works fine for all my riding too), and has seen action in all sorts of local races (from Grants Tomb to Battenkill and everything in between), century rides (flat like Montauk century and hilly like a round trip ride to Bear Mountain) and training rides in CP, 9W and beyond.

[PJN]

Custom TIG'd steel "all arounder."

GET ONE.

edit - image moved down a few posts...

[rugbysecondrow]

[QUOTE=Nooch;1332124]
But then I toyed with the idea of getting a custom tig steel rig from a respected builder, and knowing how well regarded they are, I know this wouldn't be a bad decision at all. It would have custom paint, I'd consider this more of a sentimental purchase..



About me: I've never ridden either steel or ti. My go to bike is my caad9, which performs wonderfully, and I don't know anything else, really. The one thing I don't like about the caad9 is I think I should have sized down to a 50cm frame instead of a 52 -- i went longer and lower to get some more weight over the front wheel, but it's a little bit of a stretch where I'm at -- I can ride it for hours, but I can't definitively say that it's comfortable. Other than the caad9, I semi-regularly ride my Specialized CruX, again, not much of a benchmark..


The Ti bike would have stock, racing geometry. The steel bike could be custom, though I don't know that I have any really special fit issues that necessitate it.

I know the Ti bike could be a lifetime frame -- it would be raw/brushed, and would look good year in and year out.. the steel bike would likely need to be refinished every so often. I do tend to 'put it away wet,' if you will. While I'm diligent in maintaining my drivetrain, I don't have the means to always wash the bike the way it deserves..

QUOTE]

Don't over think this. There is no such thing as a lifetime frame...folks say that but it just not the case.

I also think that a custom bike, made for you, will be the bike you will keep longer than a bike that is made out of material A, B or C. This is not a material discussion but rather a best value discussion. In that vain, I would go custom. Gunnar would be a great value if that is where you are coming from. I would (of course) look at Bedford as I have 3 of his bikes in my household, two of which are mine. Warning, owning the Bedfords have cured my bike lust, I don't even look at the classified...beware.

Go custom, get it fit and built for you. That will go further towards making it a bike you will keep for the long term than what material it is made out of. Keep the Caad for racing.

[christian]

I would be planning on keeping both, yeah, this would be an addition..So I guess this leaves me a bit confused. I mean, while I love the Pronto and think it's a great deal, for the usage you describe, it seems to overlap the CAAD9 quite a bit.

I think you risk getting into the situation I'm in - an Extreme Power for Sunday (and Tuesday this week!) riding, and an Allez for racing because, well, I don't want to crash the Extreme Power. What you end up with is two bikes that "do the same thing" but with the attendant increase in maintenance cost, etc.

If I already had a competent race bike (CAAD9 is one and frankly I don't think they get much better for the type of racing you and I do), and a cross bike, I'd be looking for a winter trainer/fender bike/gravel bike, but with a sharp focus on weight, position and road manners.

Basically, I'd be looking for the aggressive geometry of a race bike, but with 47-57mm brakes and fender mounts. This would seem to cover your bases more adequately and with less overlap. And this is something you can only get custom. For me, Hampco Strada Bianca, but with an explicit instruction to Steve that you're looking for a racy winter trainer, would be the thing to go fro.

[ergott]

Does the ti bike have external headset bearings? That has to be added to the stack.

[christian]

Yeah, basically the same as PJN said.

[Nooch]

So I guess this leaves me a bit confused. I mean, while I love the Pronto and think it's a great deal, for the usage you describe, it seems to overlap the CAAD9 quite a bit.

I think you risk getting into the situation I'm in - an Extreme Power for Sunday (and Tuesday this week!) riding, and an Allez for racing because, well, I don't want to crash the Extreme Power. What you end up with is two bikes that "do the same thing" but with the attendant increase in maintenance cost, etc.

If I already had a competent race bike (CAAD9 is one and frankly I don't think they get much better for the type of racing you and I do), and a cross bike, I'd be looking for a winter trainer/fender bike/gravel bike, but with a sharp focus on weight, position and road manners.

Basically, I'd be looking for the aggressive geometry of a race bike, but with 47-57mm brakes and fender mounts. This would seem to cover your bases more adequately and with less overlap. And this is something you can only get custom. For me, Hampco Strada Bianca, but with an explicit instruction to Steve that you're looking for a racy winter trainer, would be the thing to go fro.

Kind of.. also part of the sway toward something else.. Rugby, you get a cookie for naming the other builder in this equation...

so much for being coy :)

it's not to say that the caad won't prove to be redundant.. but it's also a bike that i've grown emotionally attached to -- first real bike purchase, still evokes that bit of glee when I look at it, and is a pretty competent commuter. I don't know if I want to ride a bike worth more than that to my office and lock it up outside, necessarily.

[jamaris]

I would put in another vote for the custom. It will inevitably teach you something more about your fit and what you want out of a bike.

No bike is a perfect custom frame the first time for most people, but often gets someone closer to that "perfect" fit.
It also can be built around the concept of "long and low" while also allowing some leeway (head tube, stem angles, front center) if it doesnt work out for you.

[Nooch]

ergott, you make a good point with the HS, and looking at everything, i think you're right, no cups included... so yeah, that's going to make a big difference -- thanks for complicating things!!

52cm ti race (w/o headset):
reach: 37.2
stack: 52.8

caad9 52cm (internal headset):
reach: 38.2
stack: 52.9

adding the headset 3cm to the HT figures on the ti race, then the 50cm would be looking at 12.5 cm total length, 52cm would be 13.8cm.. my caad9 is setup at 12cm head tube plus 2.5cm conical spacer, so 14.5.. still think the 52cm ti race is the right size, and now looking at it this way, would work the same as the caad9 for all-rounder duties...

i think that helps make the decision -- forgetting about the headset had me scared about the numbers to make the Ti work for me for all round duties.. going at it with the correct numbers, though, makes the Ti look 'right' for me, as it was the original intention...

thanks for helping me talk it out!

angry, i'm still up for borrowing your bikes, though!!

[mtechnica]

I feel like it would be easy to spend a lot of money on a ti or steel frame just to end up with a worse frame than a caad9. Spend carefully, lol.

[PJN]

Yeah, basically the same as PJN said.

Haha. Thanks dud!

Nooch - I think we are on pretty same wavelengths here. I have an aluminum race bike that I LOVE (that like your caad fits 28s while still having balls out racebike geometry). But training on it in the winter (wanted to be able to fit real full fenders and 28s) and the desire to ride really really sh*tty dirt roads in the summer left me wanting something more. Not a water'd down cross bike or sport tour-er. Something that had the same contact points as my race bike and that would ride similarly enough that going back and forth wouldn't be a night/day difference.

I told Joe @ Primus Mootry I wanted a fully fenderable training bike that wasn't a pig and I ended up what is pictured below. Same contact points as my race bike but with 47-57mm brakes. Tig'd steel. A little longer chainstays, a little lower bottom bracket and a little slacker angles to optimize the frame geo for bigger tires (smallest planned tire was 28 - where on my race bike that is the biggest) Fits 35s without fenders with some room to spare.

Zero complaints other than the fork isn't my favorite. I want Joe to build me a steel one at some point but this one has been sufficient so I'm just going to keep riding it.

Really - if you want an all around-er get one. Long ass wet rides aren't so damn miserable. Screw having a ti bike that fills the same role as your caad.

I love this bike. The SKS longboard fenders are pretty sweet too. Highly recommended.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kiy94KN8_0k/UW7zXvLrxKI/AAAAAAAACQ4/Kijl7KMbOVg/s912/P1020951.JPG

[PJN]

Also - if you want to try out an "all arounder"/fenderable training rig without breaking the bank check out the Kinesis T2 available through some of the cheap UK sites. Kinesis knows their **** for mass produced aluminum.

http://www.kinesisbikes.co.uk/products/racelight/t2

The size 48 looks like it would fit you. Probably ride pretty close to you caad.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-n5WYt8xZ93M/TxSdi__zgdI/AAAAAAAAA0k/aGgh0wSbIoc/s800/P1020292.JPG

I had one and it was pretty great. I really never should have sold it but needed to pay some medical bills and it was the only non-custom bike I had.

The fork was WAY nicer than the one on currently on my PM. But damn it just doesn't have the SEX that custom MUSA tig'd goodness brings to the table.

[reggiebaseball]

I think that you love your CAAD9 and almost have to talk yourself into these much pricier options, even as you have less time to ride and a tiny baby to enjoy.

I think you should
1. put all this play money into a college fund. I know you probably already have 5, but the way things are going it is going to cost a billion dollars for her education.

or

1a. plan a trip with family

---
I think you should experiment with a tiny bit of money by getting a CAAD10 frameset in the smaller size and building it up with your parts to resolve your "fit" questions.


Mostly I think you have so few apparent complaints about the CAAD9- even mentioning that it has the tire flexibility to do what you need - that I see no reason for dramatic changes.

[Nooch]

I think that you love your CAAD9 and almost have to talk yourself into these much pricier options, even as you have less time to ride and a tiny baby to enjoy.

I think you should
1. put all this play money into a college fund. I know you probably already have 5, but the way things are going it is going to cost a billion dollars for her education.

or

1a. plan a trip with family

---
I think you should experiment with a tiny bit of money by getting a CAAD10 frameset in the smaller size and building it up with your parts to resolve your "fit" questions.


Mostly I think you have so few apparent complaints about the CAAD9- even mentioning that it has the tire flexibility to do what you need - that I see no reason for dramatic changes.

Hey Reggie,

I appreciate the input..

My impetus for the purchase has several folds. For one, the itch for something new. Two, I work part-time at a bike shop with the sole purpose of spending that money on bike crap. That leads to three, the unresistable deal on the frameset.

The little one does indeed have her share of college accounts set up already -- so that's squared. And she's also been to Disney already :)

Truth is, I just want to exercise n+1.. I've worked in a shop for three years surrounded by custom frames -- it does little to quell bike lust...