Nemesis

[merckx]

There is a nice little poignant piece today in VeloNews about the demise of Nemesis rims. The flood of carbon wheels created this inevitable result for the Nemesis. When I next get called up for Roubaix, I too will ask my mechanic to fit the carbon tubs to my machine. However, until then, I will continue to enjoy my Nemesis tubs and the fatties that are fixed to them. How about you?

[christian]

I have a pair, and a spare. I think I'm good for a while. More alarming is that the latest batch have a new laser etching which is not as nice.

Where they used to say: A.M.B.R.O.S.I.O between the spoke holes they now say AM.BRO.SIO.

Not good, eh.

[FlashUNC]

Article was ridiculous and trying too hard to be Writing instead of playing it straight.

Isn't as if Ambrosio is closing the doors and not making the darn things anymore.

[tmf]

My primary set of wheels is built with Ambrosio Synthesis super pro rims. According to VeloBase, they are 1mm wider and 44g lighter than the Nemesis. I'm guessing the ride is very close to a Nemesis - and these wheels are pure heaven.

My other wheels that get riding time use Record Pave and Mavic SSC blue rims, but I'm really enjoying the Synthesis. I have absolutely no plans to have any carbon rims.

[firerescuefin]

Caley Fretz (the author of that article) is unreadable. This is the same clown that created a stir a couple of years ago by saying that guys building Chinarellos should be considered for NAHBS...His article was called "The Myth of Origin"...and just recently posted an article in the AM talking about the HORRORS related to carbon clinchers and in the PM (on the same day) announced Mavic's new...(wait for it) carbon clincher that in his opinion addressed nearly all of those shortcomings. His writing...I mean advertising...sucks.

[torquer]

The flood of carbon wheel sponsorships created this inevitable result for the Nemesis
FTFY;)
Seriously, if the carbon wheels were really a disadvantage, would the pros still be on them? The potential rewards from a victory in possibly the most prestigious of the monuments has got to outweigh the risk of alienation a second- or third-tier sponsor.
OTOH, considering the source of the story (where I cannot recall ever seeing an Ambrosio ad in all the years I subscribed), maybe this is like Fox News reporting the death of liberalism.

[firerescuefin]

FTFY;)
Seriously, if the carbon wheels were really a disadvantage, would the pros still be on them? The potential rewards from a victory in possibly the most prestigious of the monuments has got to outweigh the risk of alienation a second- or third-tier sponsor.
OTOH, considering the source of the story (where I cannot recall ever seeing an Ambrosio ad in all the years I subscribed), maybe this is like Fox News reporting the death of liberalism.

On a dry dusty day...you can run a 404 with a 27mm tubular and get away with it (they're plenty strong)....Had the day been ****ty, there would have been more than a few more aluminum options on the starting line. What wins on sunday, sells on monday.

[William]

Do you know what nemesis means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent, personified in this case by a 'orrible ****, me.;)






William

[ergott]

I think that as the technology progresses, pro level bikes are less and less appropriate for general road riding. The rims/spokes are proprietary, the brakes are by the bottom bracket, and every company has an answer to what the bottom bracket should be, you are even seeing the front brake being integrated into the fork (Ridley). Nothing wrong with all that on a bike meant to win raced. All of these things make the bike incrementally faster for someone that must win at all costs. Owning a bike like that is like owning a Porsche cup car. It must be a blast to drive/race, but it won't be my first choice for driving to Virginia. Hell I'd love to have that Porsche, but I would never have it as my daily driver.

[teleguy57]

I like my Nemesis on silver Chorus, and deciding what to do with the silver Records that will be inbound shortly.

In the Ambrosio line, there used to be a Montreal (which can still be found) and a Metamorphosis (gotta love the names!) in addition to the still available Nemesis and F20 (which is insufficient for my mass.)

Anyone have info on the Metamorphosis and how it fit into their tubular lineup?

I like the ride of my Nemesis for almost everything, but the closest I get to racing is the Wed night Worlds. Wonder what the riders would choose for cobbled classics if it was up to them. I do recall an article last year about OPQS having Tommeke ride his box sections on the track at an intense speed, then ride a set of 303s at the same speed to prove to him that the Zipps would make a difference.... Certainly didn't hurt him on his solo from 55K out last year.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Do you know what nemesis means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent, personified in this case by a 'orrible ****, me.;)






William

Be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm.

[jet sanchez]

Is there a Nemesis that comes in the 23mm width?

[christian]

Nemesis are already 21mm wide. Mavic Reflex are also 21.3mm wide.

No one needs wider tubulars, unless it's specifically for cyclocross, in which case I guess you can ride Major Toms (23mm wide). But I find the above fine for 33mm tubulars, too.

[merckx]

I think that as the technology progresses, pro level bikes are less and less appropriate for general road riding. The rims/spokes are proprietary, the brakes are by the bottom bracket, and every company has an answer to what the bottom bracket should be, you are even seeing the front brake being integrated into the fork (Ridley). Nothing wrong with all that on a bike meant to win raced. All of these things make the bike incrementally faster for someone that must win at all costs. Owning a bike like that is like owning a Porsche cup car. It must be a blast to drive/race, but it won't be my first choice for driving to Virginia. Hell I'd love to have that Porsche, but I would never have it as my daily driver.

This.

[mgm777]

Do you know what nemesis means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent, personified in this case by a 'orrible ****, me.;)

William


"Big black nemesis, parthenogenesis No one move a muscle as the dead come home" --- Shriekback, 1985

One of my faves from back in the day, a long, long time ago.

[saab2000]

My primary set of wheels is built with Ambrosio Synthesis super pro rims. According to VeloBase, they are 1mm wider and 44g lighter than the Nemesis. I'm guessing the ride is very close to a Nemesis - and these wheels are pure heaven.



The Synthesis is a nicer riding rim IMHO. I have both and prefer the Synthesis. Hard to tell if it's just mental but I am quite certain that I can feel a difference and that the Synthesis ride more smoothly.

[tmf]

"Big black nemesis, parthenogenesis No one move a muscle as the dead come home" --- Shriekback, 1985

One of my faves from back in the day, a long, long time ago.

+1! As a bass player, I've always loved Dave Allen's basslines.

[redir]

I just cracked the eyelet of my box section Campy Barcelona 92 rims. 22mm wide low profile box. Majorly bummed about that. Those rims were used in resent PR.

[terry]

I too like my Nemisis wheels. What's not to like-smooth & durable and easy to build. However, after 500 miles on them I just switched to my 38mm carbon's and I'm faster, no doubt. Faster on the flats, faster up the hills. Same tires(conti comps), same bike. Nemisis are a great training wheel but the pros know what they are doing by racing on carbon.

[firerescuefin]

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gallery/article/paris-roubaix-race-tech-massive-gallery-36957?img=100

:)

[oldpotatoe]

I think that as the technology progresses, pro level bikes are less and less appropriate for general road riding. The rims/spokes are proprietary, the brakes are by the bottom bracket, and every company has an answer to what the bottom bracket should be, you are even seeing the front brake being integrated into the fork (Ridley). Nothing wrong with all that on a bike meant to win raced. All of these things make the bike incrementally faster for someone that must win at all costs. Owning a bike like that is like owning a Porsche cup car. It must be a blast to drive/race, but it won't be my first choice for driving to Virginia. Hell I'd love to have that Porsche, but I would never have it as my daily driver.

What he said!

[colod]

I think that as the technology progresses, pro level bikes are less and less appropriate for general road riding. The rims/spokes are proprietary, the brakes are by the bottom bracket, and every company has an answer to what the bottom bracket should be, you are even seeing the front brake being integrated into the fork (Ridley). Nothing wrong with all that on a bike meant to win raced. All of these things make the bike incrementally faster for someone that must win at all costs. Owning a bike like that is like owning a Porsche cup car. It must be a blast to drive/race, but it won't be my first choice for driving to Virginia. Hell I'd love to have that Porsche, but I would never have it as my daily driver.

Agreed. But if you could afford that Porsche, you might buy it. Or more to the point, enough of us (and our neighbors) would buy them to make it worth the cycling world's Porsche-equivalents produce them.

[torquer]

Interesting thread drift: a discussion about what wheels professionals use in what is generally considered the most physically challenging race on the calendar morphs into "pro level bikes are less and less appropriate for general road riding." Did Grant Petersen join the forum when I wasn't paying attention?

Grant may be on my mind because I just got around to reading a review of his book that came out last year.
"Petersen opens with this salvo: “My main goal with this book is to point out what I see as bike racing’s bad influence on bicycles, equipment and attitudes, and then undo it.” And he goes on to prove, conclusively, that most of what ails the world of cycling comes from nonprofessional riders pretending, or being bullied into pretending, that they’re professionals. The solution, he says, is to emulate kids and other “Unracers” — people who bike for fun and not profit."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/books/review/just-ride-by-grant-petersen.html?ref=bookreviews&_r=0

I think the reference earlier in this thread to Porsche Cup racing was appropriate, given the niche status of bike racing, but I've been thinking more about Nascar as a model for driving behavior (and not in a good way). Tailgaters probably think they're at Tallageda, and too many drivers are already willing to "trade paint" with cyclists.

[reggiebaseball]

I too like my Nemisis wheels. What's not to like-smooth & durable and easy to build. However, after 500 miles on them I just switched to my 38mm carbon's and I'm faster, no doubt. Faster on the flats, faster up the hills. Same tires(conti comps), same bike. Nemisis are a great training wheel but the pros know what they are doing by racing on carbon.

First of all, no you are not faster.

You may think you are faster,
you may have a lighter wallet to lug up hills with carbon rims,
you may have a psychological incentive to think you are faster,


But you're not. The pros race on what they are told to race, and are at a physical peak where minor things (like wheels, which are truly minor) can save precious seconds. You are neither operating at their physical levels, nor embroiled in intense competition.

If you truly want to be faster, loose some weight, train more, or ride without gloves (more aerodynamic benefit than
the best wheels).

If you want to think you are faster, that's fine too,. I put on my white assos bibs, get on a Marcelo with lightweights and pretend I am in the peloton too-

but don't tell
other people out loud that they make you faster, because that is nonsense.

[RedRider]

The Nemesis by Ambrosio has always been one of those pieces of equipment that every cyclist wanted at some point and until recently, they were relatively hard to locate. There was no US distributor and the wheel builders that could get them used them for complete wheel sales. When available the rims alone usually sold for about $125 per.
About 6 months ago, Competitive Cyclist started advertising them for $99.00 per rim, then Back Country (parent co.) via Amazon was offering them at the same price.
In January, they put them on sale for $69 then 3 weeks later $59 and sold out their entire stock.
I bought a "few" and have a pair ready for building today.

[christian]

First of all, no you are not faster.

You may think you are faster,
you may have a lighter wallet to lug up hills with carbon rims,
you may have a psychological incentive to think you are faster,


But you're not. The pros race on what they are told to race, and are at a physical peak where minor things (like wheels, which are truly minor) can save precious seconds. You are neither operating at their physical levels, nor embroiled in intense competition.

If you truly want to be faster, loose some weight, train more, or ride without gloves (more aerodynamic benefit than
the best wheels).

If you want to think you are faster, that's fine too,. I put on my white assos bibs, get on a Marcelo with lightweights and pretend I am in the peloton too-

but don't tell
other people out loud that they make you faster, because that is nonsense.A+ rant.

But really silly. Of course he's faster, ceteris paribus. That's why pros use carbon rims.

[ClutchCargo]

First of all, no you are not faster.

You may think you are faster,
you may have a lighter wallet to lug up hills with carbon rims,
you may have a psychological incentive to think you are faster,


But you're not. The pros race on what they are told to race, and are at a physical peak where minor things (like wheels, which are truly minor) can save precious seconds. You are neither operating at their physical levels, nor embroiled in intense competition.

If you truly want to be faster, loose some weight, train more, or ride without gloves (more aerodynamic benefit than
the best wheels).

If you want to think you are faster, that's fine too,. I put on my white assos bibs, get on a Marcelo with lightweights and pretend I am in the peloton too-

but don't tell
other people out loud that they make you faster, because that is nonsense.

Dude. Chill. Can you explain why wheels that are more aerodynamic and lighter will not increase efficiency and thus make you "faster" (all other things being equal, of course) ?

[reggiebaseball]

buddy,

Michael Phelps benefits from a skinsuit in the pool.
But you wouldn't.
Because you are old, fat, and a sh#tty swimmer compared to him. As are we all.

If Michael Phelps posts about how a skinsuit saves him 1 watt, which may be the difference between gold and silver in the Olympics, I will listen.

But when you tell me that said skinsuit makes you faster at the YMCA on saturdays, it makes me laugh.

[reggiebaseball]

Dude. Can you explain why wheels that are more aerodynamic and lighter will not increase efficiency and thus make you "faster" (all other things being equal, of course) ?

Yes, aerodynamics developed for things like Indy race cars are not applicable to bicycles moving at slow speeds where the mass and aerodynamics of the rider are 100x more relevant than the gear

[firerescuefin]

Yes, aerodynamics developed for things like Indy race cars are not applicable to bicycles moving at slow speeds where the mass and aerodynamics of the rider are 100x more relevant than the gear

I'll role with this one...and agree with both sides. I have a pair of Nemesis wheels as well as some 606s and Bora's. I do "feel" faster on the Boras and they do hold speed (mid 20s +) better than than my Nemesis wheels, but on my normal routes, the difference is much more subjective than objective.

[SBash]

I'm faster with my gloves, cause it covers all the hair on my knuckles.:eek:

[Formulasaab]

Middle ground reasonableness might be here:


Yes, the wheel is a faster wheel.
No, the rider is not a faster rider because of that wheel.
Same rider, no matter the wheel.
Faster wheel with same rider makes a potentially faster package.


But at less than a pro level of skill, fitness, competition, measurement capability, measurement control, and measurement consistency... The difference is for all intents and purposes not measurable and therefore immaterial and thus effectively nonexistent.

????

[canadasteep]

buddy,

Michael Phelps benefits from a skinsuit in the pool.
But you wouldn't.
Because you are old, fat, and a sh#tty swimmer compared to him. As are we all.

If Michael Phelps posts about how a skinsuit saves him 1 watt, which may be the difference between gold and silver in the Olympics, I will listen.

But when you tell me that said skinsuit makes you faster at the YMCA on saturdays, it makes me laugh.

Too funny. Too true.

To me, debating/weighing out merits and theories is great, but sometimes a topic gets old and you need to move on.

[ergott]

Yes, aerodynamics developed for things like Indy race cars are not applicable to bicycles moving at slow speeds where the mass and aerodynamics of the rider are 100x more relevant than the gear

This is an over-generalization. Position is most relevant, but aerodynamics are physical properties and don't have a minimum speed where the laws begin to be abided by.

[cfox]

First of all, no you are not faster.

You may think you are faster,
you may have a lighter wallet to lug up hills with carbon rims,
you may have a psychological incentive to think you are faster,


But you're not. The pros race on what they are told to race, and are at a physical peak where minor things (like wheels, which are truly minor) can save precious seconds. You are neither operating at their physical levels, nor embroiled in intense competition.

If you truly want to be faster, loose some weight, train more, or ride without gloves (more aerodynamic benefit than
the best wheels).

If you want to think you are faster, that's fine too,. I put on my white assos bibs, get on a Marcelo with lightweights and pretend I am in the peloton too-

but don't tell
other people out loud that they make you faster, because that is nonsense.

what a load of BS. You can actually quantify this you know...I have a power meter...if I ride the 9% 1 mile hill near my house at the same wattage, I do actually climb it faster with carbon wheels vs my nemesis. It's pretty much impossible not to. The old "lose some weight" thing is funny. You'd actually be better off losing 1.5 lbs. with wheels vs your gut. Or better yet, do both, they aren't mutually exclusive. Does any of it matter? Of course not! We likely agree there...but as distasteful as it may seem to many, you can actually buy speed.

[terry]

First of all, no you are not faster.

You may think you are faster,
you may have a lighter wallet to lug up hills with carbon rims,
you may have a psychological incentive to think you are faster,


But you're not. The pros race on what they are told to race, and are at a physical peak where minor things (like wheels, which are truly minor) can save precious seconds. You are neither operating at their physical levels, nor embroiled in intense competition.

If you truly want to be faster, loose some weight, train more, or ride without gloves (more aerodynamic benefit than
the best wheels).

If you want to think you are faster, that's fine too,. I put on my white assos bibs, get on a Marcelo with lightweights and pretend I am in the peloton too-

but don't tell
other people out loud that they make you faster, because that is nonsense.

I guess I was way off-base. That nonsense about lighter wheels must be all marketing-why would anyone insider buying carbon wheels since they make no difference. Thank god for the Internet know-it-alls to set me straight.

[redir]

To be honest I can't tell a difference in speed between my deep carbon wheels and my old school box section wheels. I do race competitively too. But I do also know that at least on paper there is a difference, in the amateur pelaton? I don't know. I will say though that the box section wheels ride smoother and corner great while the carbon wheels feel a bit stiff and chatter(y) but they really lighten up the bike too.

[reggiebaseball]

This is an over-generalization. Position is most relevant, but aerodynamics are physical properties and don't have a minimum speed where the laws begin to be abided by.

There are aerodynamic and heat dissipation principles that apply to space shuttle re-entry or hypersonic flight. Special ceramic coating with dimples on the underside that prevent the vehicles from burning up or from tearing themselves apart due to friction in the air flows.

But, Zipp does not (yet) advertise a "ceramic" coating to dissipate heat when I am riding my bike. Though they do have dimples... Because I do not yet ride my bike fast enough to cause the frame to get to 2300 degrees F.

Because, things that matter a LOT at 11,000mph matter NOT barely even a wee bit at 22mph.

On the relative scale of what matters, the aero properties of your wheel are SO very low down it is ridiculous.

It is more accurate for people to say "my carbon wheels make me feel sexy, and that makes me ride harder, and my output is therefore higher and I am faster"

It may be true, but it has nothing to do with the technical merits of the product being discussed.

[ergott]

By all accounts, the most aerodynamic wheels will give you about a half a mile an hour when doing over 25mph or so. This is just a general idea. You won't "feel" that difference per say.

[thirdgenbird]

I'm faster with my gloves, cause it covers all the hair on my knuckles.:eek:

Shave.

[reggiebaseball]

I guess I was way off-base. That nonsense about lighter wheels must be all marketing-why would anyone insider buying carbon wheels since they make no difference. Thank god for the Internet know-it-alls to set me straight.

Terry,
a lot of the stuff you "Believe" was stuff that was fed to you by people with an agenda. Whether it is religion, education, or corporate marketing, most of the "assumptions" you make are learned behavior, based on "guesses" by white men made before you were born, and evolved into "fact".

It is painful and often difficult to face a shift of consciousness to something like "maybe the kool aid I drink is not the truth"

But if it becomes too painful, you can retreat to your structure that reinforces your beliefs, and be comforted.

Wheel aerodynamics is splitting hairs on the back of hairs on the backs of fleas, on the back of the dog.

The drag of a bottle on the downtube is 12X more significant than the wheels. Wearing a skinsuit is WAY more important that wheels.

The people who benefit from aero wheels get them for free (they are professional racers). The people who buy them are trying to buy upgrades rather than ride up grades.

To the guy who thinks his Zipps make him fast, dude get a skinsuit and a teardrop helmet, and you not only will actually be faster, but you will be EVEN COOLER.

[ergott]

On the relative scale of what matters, the aero properties of your wheel are SO very low down it is ridiculous.


You are assuming that all riders have a crappy position on the bike and are 20lbs overweight. I'm 165lbs right now (svelte race weight is more like 158lbs so not much further to go), I can sprint to over 1100W and I already have a 9cm drop from saddle to bar. I've worked on all the other aspects and having the wheels is in addition to that. Granted I don't race anymore, but my style of riding/racing is to jump off the front for a gap, tow the group, help bridge back a small group, and in general I have my nose out there in the wind when it matters.

[Rada]

There are aerodynamic and heat dissipation principles that apply to space shuttle re-entry or hypersonic flight. Special ceramic coating with dimples on the underside that prevent the vehicles from burning up or from tearing themselves apart due to friction in the air flows.

But, Zipp does not (yet) advertise a "ceramic" coating to dissipate heat when I am riding my bike. Though they do have dimples... Because I do not yet ride my bike fast enough to cause the frame to get to 2300 degrees F.

Because, things that matter a LOT at 11,000mph matter NOT barely even a wee bit at 22mph.

On the relative scale of what matters, the aero properties of your wheel are SO very low down it is ridiculous.

It is more accurate for people to say "my carbon wheels make me feel sexy, and that makes me ride harder, and my output is therefore higher and I am faster"

It may be true, but it has nothing to do with the technical merits of the product being discussed.

And re-entering the atmosphere in the space shuttle does?

[ergott]

Terry,
a lot of the stuff you "Believe" was stuff that was fed to you by people with an agenda. Whether it is religion, education, or corporate marketing, most of the "assumptions" you make are learned behavior, based on "guesses" by white men made before you were born, and evolved into "fact".

It is painful and often difficult to face a shift of consciousness to something like "maybe the kool aid I drink is not the truth"

But if it becomes too painful, you can retreat to your structure that reinforces your beliefs, and be comforted.

Wheel aerodynamics is splitting hairs on the back of hairs on the backs of fleas, on the back of the dog.

The drag of a bottle on the downtube is 12X more significant than the wheels. Wearing a skinsuit is WAY more important that wheels.

The people who benefit from aero wheels get them for free (they are professional racers). The people who buy them are trying to buy upgrades rather than ride up grades.

To the guy who thinks his Zipps make him fast, dude get a skinsuit and a teardrop helmet, and you not only will actually be faster, but you will be EVEN COOLER.

You are coming off the polar opposite of the Marketeers. There is some truth to your statements, but since you exaggerate things, use age old cliches, and over generalize so point is lost just as much is the guy selling snake oil.

[reggiebaseball]

You are coming off the polar opposite of the Marketeers. There is some truth to your statements, but since you exaggerate things, use age old cliches, and over generalize so point is lost just as much is the guy selling snake oil.

that's ok, I don't expect to win anyone over

as you know - wheels are a psychological thing and people will not be won over by one fact or another, rather they will pick and choose the facts that support their viewpoint.

Like the studies that Zipp will release showing how their wheels are .5mph faster, for Fabian Cancellara.

Everyone with money to burn has to go through their "deep carbon" phase at some point. I have my own carbon wheels for when I want to race down to get my apple fritter faster.

[moose8]

Speaking of ambrosio nemesis, is this a good deal: http://m.competitivecyclist.com/product-components/2013-chris-king-r45-ambrosio-nemesis-tubular-wheelset-36042.41.1.html

Seems like it with those hubs.

[ergott]

that's ok, I don't expect to win anyone over


Right, but by not sticking to the facts it makes your point no more relevant than the guy that says he slaps on some carbon wheels and his average speed is 5mph more.

[reggiebaseball]

You are assuming that all riders have a crappy position on the bike and are 20lbs overweight. I'm 165lbs right now (svelte race weight is more like 158lbs so not much further to go), I can sprint to over 1100W and I already have a 9cm drop from saddle to bar. I've worked on all the other aspects and having the wheels is in addition to that. Granted I don't race anymore, but my style of riding/racing is to jump off the front for a gap, tow the group, help bridge back a small group, and in general I have my nose out there in the wind when it matters.

Eric, can we get a photo of you in your skinsuit and teardrop helmet please!:)

You shave your eyebrows of course?

Facts, as gathered by some guys at MIT, enabling their "not so physically gifted" cyclists to dominate in collegiate TT

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/bikes-and-gear-features/revenge-nerds

"We've learned that your bike accounts for only 15 to 25 percent of your overall drag; 75 percent of how fast you go is determined by how your body gets in the way of the air. "

"Most people don't realize that a nonaero helmet creates four times the drag of a nonaero wheelset. So you can spend two thousand dollars on a wheelset, or spend two hundred on a helmet and be faster. How you put your race number on matters more than having an aero wheel; today, we glued on our numbers to get them to fit flatter. Then there's water bottle placement: On a round-tubed frame, having a bottle on your seat tube is more aerodynamic than not having one at all, and it's much more aero than putting it on the down tube. And wearing gloves in a time trial will slow you down more than using a nonaero front wheel. "


They conducted aerodynamic studies, of professionals on bikes (Basso visited, among others), then applied the science to more "regular" people, and won.

Summary of results:
"The MIT ranking of value in terms of cost/second saved for practical triathletes is:

Detailed factors, e.g. cable routing, race #, etc.
Helmet
Position
Frame
Wheels

Note - the water bottle shape was actually considered 2nd most important but was tested using a MIT custom designed one not available to the public.

There are trade-offs though, between body positioning aerodynamics and power output efficiency. It's not effective if you are super aerodynamic but losing lots of pedal power because of your positioning. Proper bike fit will help you in this regard since it determines a comfortable and aerodynamic position on the bike."

Calculations of time saved:
"Here are some specific time savings over a 40 kilometer time trial course based on measured data:

6 seconds saved for optimized aero position on the bike
5 seconds saved for racing with a water bottle as opposed to not taking it along
4 seconds saved for an aero helmet over a standard cycling helmet
3 seconds saved for an aero bicycle frame
2 seconds saved for using aero wheels
1 second saved for cleanup details (cabling, brakes, etc)
"

The reason I say ridiculous stuff most of the time is that it is my particular sense of humor, and I don't care whether I enlighten anyone who is resistant to knowledge.
But for those with an open mind I seek to entertain with my profound wit and irony, even as I ROCK THEIR WORLD with knowledge.


I can see that my TED talk on LSD and wheel aerodynamics being banned already!

[ergott]

Eric, can we get a photo of you in your skinsuit and teardrop helmet please!:)

You shave your eyebrows of course?

Fact - teardrop helmets not allowed in mass start races.
Fact - a skinsuit might have been advantageous, but I didn't go that route.

Data on the eyebrow shaving advantage?

[reggiebaseball]

Speaking of ambrosio nemesis, is this a good deal: http://m.competitivecyclist.com/product-components/2013-chris-king-r45-ambrosio-nemesis-tubular-wheelset-36042.41.1.html

Seems like it with those hubs.

it is a good deal with those hubs, several hundred less that I was spec'd by some wheelbuilders for nearly the same thing.

[ergott]

it is a good deal with those hubs, several hundred less that I was spec'd by some wheelbuilders for nearly the same thing.

Can't beat that at all. Nice wheels.

[Formulasaab]

I read somewhere that if Laurent Fignon had cut his hair or tucked his ponytail... We'd have had a different winner in France in 1989.

[reggiebaseball]

You, sir, are no Larent Fignon, nor Greg Lemond.
if you want to constrain the discussion to "benefits of aero wheels for the two top finishers in the TDF" I think maybe we can agree on some things

[ClutchCargo]

Middle ground reasonableness might be here:


Yes, the wheel is a faster wheel.
No, the rider is not a faster rider because of that wheel.
Same rider, no matter the wheel.
Faster wheel with same rider makes a potentially faster package.


But at less than a pro level of skill, fitness, competition, measurement capability, measurement control, and measurement consistency... The difference is for all intents and purposes not measurable and therefore immaterial and thus effectively nonexistent.

????

This is simply not true.

[Lionel]

Nemesis are great wheels for cobbles. If pro had the choice they most likely would pick them as for cobble riding a 50mm carbon rim is just a poor choice. But the sponsors rule.

[cfox]

You, sir, are no Larent Fignon, nor Greg Lemond.
if you want to constrain the discussion to "benefits of aero wheels for the two top finishers in the TDF" I think maybe we can agree on some things

how about weight? If you ride hills weight makes a big difference. To say it doesn't is to say you think a giant flesh magnet is what holds us on Earth. My carbon wheels weigh 1.5 pounds less than my nemesis set. That's a lot. That makes a measurable difference on a very hill ride. It just does, sorry.

these "we're not pros so nothing matters" responses are tiresome. why don't we all just ride allez's (not the 7k one) with 105 and wagon wheels? or better yet, why don't we just kill ourselves?

[Formulasaab]

This is simply not true.

How do you propose I measure it?

I ride on roads with traffic, lights, and wind. That makes 5,246 X the difference of a deep section rim.

By the way... 72% of statistics are made up on the spot.

[Formulasaab]

You, sir, are no Larent Fignon, nor Greg Lemond.
if you want to constrain the discussion to "benefits of aero wheels for the two top finishers in the TDF" I think maybe we can agree on some things

Please clarify, as I can't tell... Are you arguing the point?

I said I read it somewhere. I didn't say it was true or not.
Also, in my previous post, I think I probably supported your opinion.

So I'm not sure where your comment stems from?

[Rada]

Nemesis are great wheels for cobbles. If pro had the choice they most likely would pick them as for cobble riding a 50mm carbon rim is just a poor choice. But the sponsors rule.

So what changed between the sponsors and the teams this year as opposed to past years when teams went with Nemesis rims? Plenty of teams still seemed to be using non sponsored tires.

[FlashUNC]

Didn't one of the continental teams ride the race exclusively with Nemesis rims?

Fretz really crapped the bed with this article. Surprising given his usual low standards.

[christian]

why don't we all just ride allez's (not the 7k one) with 105 and wagon wheels? or better yet, why don't we just kill ourselves?Look, I resent the idea that my cobbled together Allez with Centaur and 26mm bars is somehow only one step better than death. (BTW, it rolls on Record/Nemeses.)

[reggiebaseball]

these "we're not pros so nothing matters" responses are tiresome. why don't we all just ride allez's (not the 7k one) with 105 and wagon wheels? or better yet, why don't we just kill ourselves?

make sure to get some ceramic bearings in those wagon wheels.


Seriously,
I am happy to help you spend money on cycling, I just know that Zipp wheels are a poor place to do it.
There are a ton of things we could get that would improve your cycling experience,

custom, made to measure frame from lightweight modern steel alloys
handlebra
maybe new or better shoes,
good tires! Seriously, if you ride Continentals buy some Veloflex before changing wheelsets.
bike fit if you have not seen a real expert
windtunnel testing
maybe a helmet with no holes for aero improvements
or how about big dollar bibs that you never tried because they were too extravagant, give some a shot!

[reggiebaseball]

Look, I resent the idea that my cobbled together Allez with Centaur and 26mm bars is somehow only one step better than death. (BTW, it rolls on Record/Nemeses.)

actually the novel Steven King is writing about you is called "The Reaper" and any soul unfortunate enough to be passed by you on your Allez dies a tragic death later that day.

[christian]

Well, we'll all live forever then.

[cfox]

Look, I resent the idea that my cobbled together Allez with Centaur and 26mm bars is somehow only one step better than death. (BTW, it rolls on Record/Nemeses.)

nice wheels for a slightly-better-than-death mobile! I love shimano, but the cheaper campy groups are way sexier than 105

make sure to get some ceramic bearings in those wagon wheels.
are ceramic bearings lighter? cuz light wheels help you go faster up hills. Just thought I'd write that again.

[reggiebaseball]

are ceramic bearings lighter? cuz light wheels help you go faster up hills. Just thought I'd write that again.

well, since you only ride up hill, you can eliminate your brake tracks and shave a few more grams.

regardless, the big fat ass completely stomping you on the downhill, that's gonna be me on my Lightweights.

[cfox]

well, since you only ride up hill, you can eliminate your brake tracks and shave a few more grams.

regardless, the big fat ass completely stomping you on the downhill, that's gonna be me on my Lightweights.

lightweights rule...well done! I walk downhill, though, tends to get my bike dirty

[1centaur]

Can wheels make you slower?

[reggiebaseball]

hills make me slower.

[nighthawk]

Talking while riding makes you slower.

[echelon_john]

Riding with me makes you slower.

[redir]

LOL reggie is cracking me up in this post. Sounds like sour grapes but I have to agree to a point. like I said earlier, I bought into the aero phantasy and (granted I got a set of 50mm carbon wheels for a song since I do guitar repair and had a client barter with me ;) ) got some deep carbon hoops, but I have heard people say they are amazing and this and that and honestly I don't notice a difference except that they sound different on the road and are noticeable stiffer then my box wheels.

Still when I look down at my boxes when riding I can't help but think of all the wind they are gobbling up as apposed to my deep carbon hoops :)

[1/2 Wheeler]

Dude. Chill. Can you explain why wheels that are more aerodynamic and lighter will not increase efficiency and thus make you "faster" (all other things being equal, of course) ?

Simply because all other things are never equal in the real world.

[1/2 Wheeler]

...

By the way... 72% of statistics are made up on the spot.

B.S.

I'm pretty sure it is 76%!

[bcm119]

It's about time there was an entertaining bike-related thread on here. Nicely done reggiebaseball.

[oldpotatoe]

Can't beat that at all. Nice wheels.

I agree as long as they didn't let the guy that sweeps the floor build them.

''Always wanted to fix a transmission", comes to mind with 'some' MO places.

[Black Dog]

True. Tough love but true.

First of all, no you are not faster.

You may think you are faster,
you may have a lighter wallet to lug up hills with carbon rims,
you may have a psychological incentive to think you are faster,


But you're not. The pros race on what they are told to race, and are at a physical peak where minor things (like wheels, which are truly minor) can save precious seconds. You are neither operating at their physical levels, nor embroiled in intense competition.

If you truly want to be faster, loose some weight, train more, or ride without gloves (more aerodynamic benefit than
the best wheels).

If you want to think you are faster, that's fine too,. I put on my white assos bibs, get on a Marcelo with lightweights and pretend I am in the peloton too-

but don't tell
other people out loud that they make you faster, because that is nonsense.

[Black Dog]

what a load of BS. You can actually quantify this you know...I have a power meter...if I ride the 9% 1 mile hill near my house at the same wattage, I do actually climb it faster with carbon wheels vs my nemesis. It's pretty much impossible not to. The old "lose some weight" thing is funny. You'd actually be better off losing 1.5 lbs. with wheels vs your gut. Or better yet, do both, they aren't mutually exclusive. Does any of it matter? Of course not! We likely agree there...but as distasteful as it may seem to many, you can actually buy speed.

And you were able to quantify this in a double blind study with multiple replicates and no variance among all potential confounding factors? The wheels are faster, but can you parse out how much of the speed is due to the wheels and how much is due to placebo?

[Black Dog]

how about weight? If you ride hills weight makes a big difference. To say it doesn't is to say you think a giant flesh magnet is what holds us on Earth. My carbon wheels weigh 1.5 pounds less than my nemesis set. That's a lot. That makes a measurable difference on a very hill ride. It just does, sorry.

these "we're not pros so nothing matters" responses are tiresome. why don't we all just ride allez's (not the 7k one) with 105 and wagon wheels? or better yet, why don't we just kill ourselves?

Yep faster by a few seconds at 9% grade over 1 km at 350 watts. That is what the mass difference in your wheels saves you. If you start a rebuttal with rotational mass just remember that once you are at speed it does not matter and ignoring the mass of the human is crazy. Go to http://bikecalculator.com and plug in your numbers and see that the speed differences that you are claiming fall within natural variances. So yes, they are faster, by a very small margin, and there are several other things that have as much influence one way or the other. No one is saying that they are not faster, the facts bear this out, however your claims of perceived and measurable differences given the conditions that you are under simply are not defendable with evidence you put forth.

[54ny77]

I tend to eat spaghetti faster from a deep dish bowl vs. from something with a more shallow profile.

[bigreen505]

Speaking of ambrosio nemesis, is this a good deal: http://m.competitivecyclist.com/product-components/2013-chris-king-r45-ambrosio-nemesis-tubular-wheelset-36042.41.1.html

Seems like it with those hubs.

On the surface it is a good deal. However, I had a wheelset built by them once. I think they used loctite on the spokes. After a few thousand miles (more than 3,000, less than 5,000) the NDS spokes would go slack. I would plan on having a reputable wheel builder relieve, tension and true the wheels.

[thirdgenbird]

It looks like alloy wheels were still in play at the tour down under a few months ago:

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gallery/article/tour-down-under-2013-big-gallery-36244/57

[redir]

I tend to eat spaghetti faster from a deep dish bowl vs. from something with a more shallow profile.

Carbo load will make you faster even still ;)

[Rueda Tropical]

Since wearing a non-aero helmet causes four times as much drag as using non-areo cycling wheels. Why spend the money on aero wheels and continue to wear a non-aero helmet? A TT helmet is a lot cheaper then a set of Zipps if you really want to go faster.