the jerk is not alone in being right

[Dr. Doofus]

was talking to an ex-pro last week who is thinking about bringing in some bikes and selling em...anyway, he said they'll be race bikes, not, as he put it "tourist" bikes like one of his teams had to ride (US brand...not trek)....

of course, there is nothing wrong with tourist bikes. every bike for its proper application. but in aiming for the middle, maybe major makers are not getting it right either way....

fella's visions boils down to tighter f-c, shorter TT, low HT than on most US production designs...more like a Ridley or CSK or even Quattro Assi...can you say setback post, long stem and more weight over the front? Doof knew you could...if the bikes come out in 18mos doof will get one....

[Argos]

Any hint to a brand, Doc?

[bluesea]

the jerk is always right.
:beer:

[bostondrunk]

not, as he put it "tourist" bikes like one of his teams had to ride (US brand...not trek)........

So he was from the Sierra Nevada team?

[Dr. Doofus]

ain't sayin

ain't hintin

its too much fun to watch dudes guess

don't want the cat in question to be pissed off at the doof

[Brian Smith]

So he was from the Sierra Nevada team?

Ha. Right.
Bet not, BD.

[Dr. Doofus]

Ha. Right.
Bet not, BD.

the brass monkey is funky

once again

[Bill Bove]

Did Sierra Nevada ride stock frames? If a pro racer does not know how to tell a builder to build a custom bike for him he should not be complaining about the way it rides :argue:

I rode a Ridley Damocles for a while last spring and liked it very much, the aluminum version of it in the same size had too long a top tube, couldn't size down as it was the small already.

My all time favorite "race" bike is still my stock Colorado Al. when the need is for speed I prefer it over my custom Legend Ti. Interestingly both bikes have the same components and they differ only in millimeters in size, set up and geometry.

[Dr. Doofus]

Did Sierra Nevada ride stock frames? If a pro racer does not know how to tell a builder to build a custom bike for him he should not be complaining about the way it rides :argue:

I rode a Ridley Damocles for a while last spring and liked it very much, the aluminum version of it in the same size had too long a top tube, couldn't size down as it was the small already.

.

some pro teams have no choice but stock

you talking about the aeron?

Doof won't build up his size M aeron until the ribs are healed, but it looks like the geo in his size is identical to the carbon stuff

[bostondrunk]

Ha. Right.
Bet not, BD.

Just guessing....:)
I guess that leave's RS's cross team.....;)

[e-RICHIE]

Just guessing....:)
I guess that leave's RS's cross team.....;)


mad painful, eh.

[manet]

bills' parting thought seems relevant:

http://www.billbottrell.com/intvw/intvw7.htm

[Dr. Doofus]

drunk just bein the drunk



and how many US teams you kids think are on custom bikes? yeah...sure...a domestic pro gets a custom fuji/canondale/litespeed/specialized/quattro assi/trek/whatever junk seasilver was on/giant...orbea will do customs for 1-2 clubs, so pros don't get off the rack unless they ask for it...but that's not as common as you'd think....

[bostondrunk]

mad painful, eh.

eh? who? qui est?

[e-RICHIE]

eh? who? qui est?


it's happy hour here.
this'll have to wait.
e-RICHIE©™®

[Brian Smith]

Did Sierra Nevada ride stock frames? If a pro racer does not know how to tell a builder to build a custom bike for him he should not be complaining about the way it rides :argue:


No stock sized frames for the SN team, but they are the stock tubesets, which speaks good things I think.
We did 'em nice because we did (at least some of) 'em twice.
We flew Dan out to do additional fittings to resolve some fit issues.
Ever wonder how the SN scheme framesets ended up available for sale?

I'm not sure that I agree though, BB, about what the rider should know.
What should happen if what they know they want is in contrast to what the builder knows is right?

I know of one story where exactly that situation ended up causing a drastic change in design policy for a certain respected frameset building enterprise.

Even though I think I had some good ideas about what I wanted to ride (and couldn't get built for me) before I could build it myself, I usually deferred to what the builder wanted to do. I think I like some unusual stuff and ah happy to suffer the consequences, but I think that is mroe the exception than the rule as far as riders being satisfied with a frameset is concerned.

Unless someone already had an example they liked of a geometry configuration I didn't feel comfortable building for them, I would resist doing it. It's a complicated collection of compromises and optimizations and many riders could be surprised by the ramifications of what they 'know' how to tell a builder to build.

[coylifut]

fella's visions boils down to tighter f-c, shorter TT, low HT than on most US production designs...more like a Ridley or CSK or even Quattro Assi...can you say setback post, long stem and more weight over the front? Doof knew you could...if the bikes come out in 18mos doof will get one....

How tall are you and what's distance between the tip or your saddle and the middle of your bars?

[e-RICHIE]

We did 'em nice because we did (at least some of) 'em twice.

why?

It's a complicated collection of compromises and optimizations and many riders could be surprised by the ramifications of what they 'know' how to tell a builder to build.

agreed, major-league like.

[Dr. Doofus]

coy, you way faster than this doof...and doof is not unusually proportioned....1m 84, saddle tip-bar center around 56.2cm...the gunnar has a 57 top, and with a 120 stem everything is groovy.

the ridely has a 56.5 tt will setup with a stella 120 (which ends up being 125 if you measure it on top, rather than on bottom the way they do)....

the guy in question's idea is a bit lower, a bit shorter than most production stuff...so set it up with a long stem, low stem...not everybody would be able to ride that, and even though Doof's lousy cat 4 butt rides around 8.5-9cm of drop (no spacer on the gunnar to get that 9cm...probably 1 cm of spacer on the Ridley), he'd be running 15-20mm of spacer on something like this dude envisions...

[Brian Smith]

why?


I'm not privy to 100% of the details, but was told it was fit-related issues, possibly primarily of the TT bikes.

Handling-wise, the new numbers appeared still very typical, so I never had a question about it.
Except, of course, what's going to happen to the previous bikes?! ;)

[Sandy]

Most of us aren't racers. Hence, most of us don't need race bikes, whatever they are.


Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

Most of us aren't racers. Hence, most of us don't need race bikes, whatever they are. Sandy

a race bike is a bicycle that is properly designed for
comfort, position, and efficiency. period. if it is not
any of these, you can't finish the race - and win. i
daresay that a race bike is the best choice for most
folks, unless carrying panniers and/or mounting fenders
is sought. again - race bikes, properly designed race
bikes - are for riders. entering a race is not part of
the equation.

[manet]

4 fit + comfort, especially thems that need to sit on
the top tube:

http://www.63xc.com/wadef/clown.jpg

[Brian Smith]

the guy in question's idea is a bit lower, a bit shorter than most production stuff...so set it up with a long stem, low stem...not everybody would be able to ride that, and even though Doof's lousy cat 4 butt rides around 8.5-9cm of drop (no spacer on the gunnar to get that 9cm...probably 1 cm of spacer on the Ridley), he'd be running 15-20mm of spacer on something like this dude envisions...

I get you now, ofod - you meant 9cm saddle to bar drop.
Now that seems much more normal to me.
Before, when you just said drop, since most people speak of "drop" meaning
"bb drop," that's what I thought you meant, and 9cm would be tres unusual.
One of my favorite bikes had 9cm saddle to hbar drop.

[manet]

O' gawd:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.revla.com/images/height-handlebars.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.revla.com/fitting.htm&h=140&w=175&sz=4&tbnid=eWv2BsJs-l4J:&tbnh=76&tbnw=95&hl=en&start=106&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhigh%2Bhandlebars%26start%3D100%26svn um%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

[Sandy]

Aren't comfort, position, and efficiency criteria that differ greatly from person to person, even for the same person over time? I wouldn't think that a comfortable bike would necessarily be an efficient bike or vice versa. There may be an optimal position on a bike, but perhaps a cyclist doesn't have the flexibility or core strength or has physical limitations or lacks superior fitness,.... It seems to me that comfort, position, and efficiency are not always an easy mesh, and are probably influenced by the builder's design philosophy and personal cycling background, and the cyclist's own experience base and evolution as a cyclist.

I guess that a fitter and/or builder who can integrate comfort, position, and efficiency into a build that yields the most efficient mix of the 3, with a future flexibility to make changes as the cyclist evolves, is what one might call the master fitter and/or builder.


Sandy

[vaxn8r]

a race bike is a bicycle that is properly designed for
comfort, position, and efficiency. period. if it is not
any of these, you can't finish the race - and win. i
daresay that a race bike is the best choice for most
folks, unless carrying panniers and/or mounting fenders
is sought. again - race bikes, properly designed race
bikes - are for riders. entering a race is not part of
the equation.
You are my hero! :) :)

Thanks for validating my obsession with "race bikes".

[e-RICHIE]

Aren't comfort, position, and efficiency criteria that differ greatly from person to person...
yes. that's why no two bicycles are set up alike.
alike enough, that is.
...even for the same person over time?
yeah. if not, buy a new bicycle. like your levis, the car,
and that hoover you push around, bikes are consumer goods.
consume!
I wouldn't think that a comfortable bike would necessarily be an efficient bike or vice versa. There may be an optimal position on a bike, but perhaps a cyclist doesn't have the flexibility or core strength or has physical limitations or lacks superior fitness,.... It seems to me that comfort, position, and efficiency are not always an easy mesh, and are probably influenced by the builder's design philosophy and personal cycling background, and the cyclist's own experience base and evolution as a cyclist.

I guess that a fitter and/or builder who can integrate comfort, position, and efficiency into a build that yields the most efficient mix of the 3, with a future flexibility to make changes as the cyclist evolves, is what one might call the master fitter and/or builder.

Sandy
as far as the rest of this goes, you either "believe it" or
you don't. i think that position and comfort override everything.
if you are a high end bicycle consumer and cannot get the
correct position or be comfortable, either you have the wrong
bicycle or you are not exercising enough of your muscle groups
(yoga. stretching. training miles. intervals...), and you need to
in order to fully realize the potential of what is missing.

[manet]

yes. that's why no two bicycles are set up alike.
alike enough, that is.

yeah. if not, buy a new bicycle. like your levis, the car,
and that hoover you push around, bikes are consumer goods.
consume!

as far as the rest of this goes, you either "believe it" or
you don't. i think that position and comfort override everything.
if you are a high end bicycle consumer and cannot get the
correct position or be comfortable, either you have the wrong
bicycle or you are not exercising enough of your muscle groups
(yoga. stretching. training miles. intervals...), and you need to
in order to fully realize the potential of what is missing.

http://www.ptv-scandinavia.se/vips/pics/photos/LightInTunnelLossy.JPG

http://ccs.calpoly.edu/fun/otherimages/ithinkiseegod.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

http://www.ptv-scandinavia.se/vips/pics/photos/LightInTunnelLossy.JPG

http://ccs.calpoly.edu/fun/otherimages/ithinkiseegod.jpg

manet-issimo...
all pics. no text.
are you steven hawkings or something?
hey - thanks for reading.
e-RICHIE©™®

[manet]

manet-issimo...
all pics. no text.
are you steven hawkings or something?
hey - thanks for reading.
e-RICHIE©™®

tanks butt eyed rather:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/bocker/0310/19/NYHETER-19s99-oliver_sachs-57.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

tanks butt eyed rather:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/bocker/0310/19/NYHETER-19s99-oliver_sachs-57.jpg


i dated a borsalino once.

[manet]

i dated a borsalino once.

like'd getting felt up did she?

http://www.getahaton.com/thumb/phpThumb.php?src=../prodimages/Borsalino-Como.jpg&w=500&q=85

sweet.

[coylifut]

coy, you way faster than this doof...and doof is not unusually proportioned....1m 84, saddle tip-bar center around 56.2cm...the gunnar has a 57 top, and with a 120 stem everything is groovy.

the ridely has a 56.5 tt will setup with a stella 120 (which ends up being 125 if you measure it on top, rather than on bottom the way they do)....

the guy in question's idea is a bit lower, a bit shorter than most production stuff...so set it up with a long stem, low stem...not everybody would be able to ride that, and even though Doof's lousy cat 4 butt rides around 8.5-9cm of drop (no spacer on the gunnar to get that 9cm...probably 1 cm of spacer on the Ridley), he'd be running 15-20mm of spacer on something like this dude envisions...

I'm thinking about getting a Fuji as budget race iron. our team manager is a fuji dealer because he buys them en masse for the track. I'd get one size smaller than my current ride which means I'd go from a 120 to a 130 stem.

[manet]

randy newmans' favorite bed time story:

http://www.public.asu.edu/~orlich/kundera1.gif

[e-RICHIE]

like'd getting felt up did she?

http://www.getahaton.com/thumb/phpThumb.php?src=../prodimages/Borsalino-Como.jpg&w=500&q=85

sweet.

there was never any confusion.
ever.
http://hull534.freeshell.org/DeliciousExported/images/256

[manet]

there was never any confusion.
ever.
http://hull534.freeshell.org/DeliciousExported/images/256

just in case:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://webvision.umh.es/webvision/imageswv/conebaxons.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://webvision.umh.es/webvision/amacrines2.html&h=405&w=540&sz=57&tbnid=_GREny01_PgJ:&tbnh=97&tbnw=130&hl=en&start=14&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsynapse%2Band%2Bdendrites%26svnum%3D1 0%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

[e-RICHIE]

let's just get this over with.
kick me.
http://spinaltapfan.com/atozed/TAP00191.HTM

[Dr. Doofus]

manet?

seems more like the henry darger of the serotta board

(which means he fits right in)


anybody else notice that manet appeared around the same time that csb vanished?

[Too Tall]

Can't be the same guy odof. We don't allow him to use the computer and the mural ain't done yet...busy guy.

[manet]

h. darger? moi? merci...

another fine outsider:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gallerywalk.org/FB_DedtoVanGogh.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gallerywalk.org/PM_Bess.html&h=157&w=175&sz=22&tbnid=t73ZxHNZYO8J:&tbnh=85&tbnw=95&hl=en&start=6&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dforrest%2Bbess%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den %26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

[bostondrunk]

was talking to an ex-pro last week.................................or even Quattro Assi.......

QWert don dang doof, dig? This dang dib the first I'd herd anyone mention da Quattro Assi dang name around here. Is that what yer god JS is a ridin dees days, dang doof, dobbs, dig it?

[Dr. Doofus]

drunk man...you hurtin...

ain't got no gods

and spinelli ain't bringin in no bikes

and he ain't ridin no william lewis scag next year...

but those QA's do have a nice geo for a race bike...low, with a long stem...much good even for a drunkman

[bostondrunk]

drunk man...you hurtin...

ain't got no gods

and spinelli ain't bringin in no bikes

and he ain't ridin no william lewis scag next year...

but those QA's do have a nice geo for a race bike...low, with a long stem...much good even for a drunkman
whats a willy lewis skank?

[Dr. Doofus]

whats a willy lewis skank?

quattro,

assmunch :bike: :beer: :bike: :beer:

[Bill Bove]

[QUOTE=Dr. Doofus

you talking about the aeron?

Doof won't build up his size M aeron until the ribs are healed, but it looks like the geo in his size is identical to the carbon stuff[/QUOTE]

Nah Doc, it's a Compact, size small. They didn't import this one last year and may not this year. We special ordered a couple of them for us but haven't really liked them. Mine had too long a top tube and the other guy here thought the steering on his (same size) was too nervous. I'm 5'8" and like a shortTT/long stem, he's 5'9" likes a longTT/short stem, niether one of us likes long walks in the rain or pinada coloda's though.

Brian, if I were getting a bike from say e-Rich I'd tell him my dimensions and how I wanted the bike to handle and leave the details to him. I'd imagine that unless the SN guys had something that really worked for them they'ed do the same.

[bostondrunk]

..

[Dr. Doofus]

thought you'd like that one, BD

[Serotta PETE]

a race bike is a bicycle that is properly designed for
comfort, position, and efficiency. period. if it is not
any of these, you can't finish the race - and win. i
daresay that a race bike is the best choice for most
folks, unless carrying panniers and/or mounting fenders
is sought. again - race bikes, properly designed race
bikes - are for riders. entering a race is not part of
the equation.


Right to the point and very well stated!!!!


PETE

[quattro]

Good Dr., how did I get dragged into this mess?!

[sg8357]

Right to the point and very well stated!!!!


PETE

Now we just have to define what kind of racing the bike is designed for.
This time of year I'm riding at night on crappy roads, a 1950ish
Learco Guerra might be a better choice than a Fuji Team SL.
If I lived in Walnut Creek and was racing over Mt. Tam, I might want
a different bike than the Team SL.
The race bikes of today are products of build to rule for short, paved
stages with team cars, so people ride longer on variable surfaces sans
teams cars, might want something a bit different.

Scott G.
So trust the Intelligent Designer, be he E-Richie or Jan Heine.

[Dr. Doofus]

Good Dr., how did I get dragged into this mess?!


blame BD

Quattros (of the assi and audi variety) are ok by the doof