Titanium seattube damage

[tuscanyswe]

I use my bikes for work but im very carefull in how i treat them. They are like my babies since i havent got any real ones yet.

So today when i was washing my bike after the winter i discovered damage to the seatube. I was very suprised as i couldent understand how it got there. I have had no incidents with this bike at all and its in such a weird place.

Its not a dent, its not a ding. Best way to describe it would be a cut.

Puzzled by this i went to my lbs. After looking over the frame the mechanic says its mark (s) from a cutter / grinder.

Thats when it hits me. A month ago or maybe more i lost the key to my bikelook down an elevator. They wanted 200 bux to get the key so i opted for the nearest bike store and let them brake / open the lock for me so i could continue my ride. Took no more than 5 min to cut trough the look in 2 places and i was happily on my way soon after. With a minimal expense (or so i thought at the time) and a new bike lock.

As it turns out, they cut into my frame with the grinder. I probably witnesses it but the mechanic said it was just the pedal when i saw it skip at one time. Bike was dirty so there wasent anything standing out as i got it back. I was prolly dumb not to inspect it after but it just dident occur to me at the time that a mechanic could be so sloppy with such a nice frame.

Took it back to that shop today and waiting to hear back from them (tuesday/wednesday)

This is a Seven butted frame (argen tubing i believe). I have ridden the frame since then for a month atleast and have noticed nothing but the tubing is most likely really thin in this area?

What is a reasonable compensation for something like this? I dont know what to ask or say really. Im just bit gutted.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8381/8602268061_0500d24c39_c.jpg

[rugbysecondrow]

This is a tough one. A grinder in the hands of somebody inexperienced is trouble. It is a somewhat inexact tool.

I am not certain there is a reasonable compensation. I think you might be SOL, with a lesson learned.

[csm]

I'd be surprised if the responsible party owned up to it or offered any compensation. Small claims court perhaps?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[eddief]

but seems like a lot a do about not too much. seems if you loved it so much you might have seen the issue a long time ago. it's a commuter, right? find a cute little decal, stick it over the flaw, and just keep riding. or i guess you could go to court.

if you ever decide to refinish the frame, you could have the painter stick some filler in the scratch and paint on a nice seat tube panel.


So today when i was washing my bike after the winter i discovered damage to the seatube. I was very suprised as i couldent understand how it got there. I have had no incidents with this bike at all and its in such a weird place.

Its not a dent, its not a ding. Best way to describe it would be a cut.

Puzzled by this i went to my lbs. After looking over the frame the mechanic says its mark (s) from a cutter / grinder.

Thats when it hits me. A month ago or maybe more i lost the key to my bikelook down an elevator. They wanted 200 bux to get the key so i opted for the nearest bike store and let them brake / open the lock for me so i could continue my ride. Took no more than 5 min to cut trough the look in 2 places and i was happily on my way soon after. With a minimal expense (or so i thought at the time) and a new bike lock.

As it turns out, they cut into my frame with the grinder. I probably witnesses it but the mechanic said it was just the pedal when i saw it skip at one time. Bike was dirty so there wasent anything standing out as i got it back. I was prolly dumb not to inspect it after but it just dident occur to me at the time that a mechanic could be so sloppy with such a nice frame.

Took it back to that shop today and waiting to hear back from them (tuesday/wednesday)

This is a Seven butted frame (argen tubing i believe). I have ridden the frame since then for a month atleast and have noticed nothing but the tubing is most likely really thin in this area?

What is a reasonable compensation for something like this? I dont know what to ask or say really. Im just bit gutted.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8381/8602268061_0500d24c39_c.jpg[/QUOTE]

[kestrel]

200 dollars to go into an elevator shaft via the inspection door?????
A 2 minute job at best.

Only true solution is to replace the tube. Doubt that will happen.

Polish the spot a bit and chalk it up to experience. Ride on!

[tuscanyswe]

Dont know how it works in the states but here most elevators are runned by companies not in the building. They would need to get on of there guys there with express speed so thats probably more of the cost than opening the hatch.

Not a commuter. Messengerbike. If you were to inspect your frame every time it gets dirty during swedish winter riding in the city, you would do little else. During these months i just hose the worst of and clean the drivetrain.

Come spring i enjoy making it look like new again. Not this time so much tho.

[eddief]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-HUNGARY-STICKER-STRIPE-FLAG-DECAL-BUMPER-BIKE-MOTO-/280710016490?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415b9eedea


Dont know how it works in the states but here most elevators are runned by companies not in the building. They would need to get on of there guys there with express speed so thats probably more of the cost than opening the hatch.

Not a commuter. Messengerbike. If you were to inspect your frame every time it gets dirty during swedish winter riding in the city, you would do little else. During these months i just hose the worst of and clean the drivetrain.

Come spring i enjoy making it look like new again. Not this time so much tho.

[lhuerta]

...I think it adds a bit of character to your raw Ti frame. Rub down a bit with steel wool and ride on! Lou

[tuscanyswe]

...I think it adds a bit of character to your raw Ti frame. Rub down a bit with steel wool and ride on! Lou

I like character ; )

Just prefer its my character leaving marks. But really, more than anything im just suprised a mechanic would use a grinder on such a nice frame without taking precautions for potential skips with such a tool.

[Fishbike]

The first question is whether the mark has damaged the integrity of the frame. It doesn't look like it in the photo. If if does, you have a legitimate claim with the bike shop and it should be responsible for the repair. If the problem is just cosmetic, then get thee some Scotch Brite (you may need to start with something a little more abrasive) and commence a rubbin'. I know it hurts. But they are tools and they do get a little banged up when actually used or worked on.

[djg21]

Go ride your bike. It looks to be purely cosmetic. Think of it as karma for dropping your key down the elevator shaft.

If you are that concerned about the cosmetic, you might try to buffing out some of the mar with scotchbrite.

[eddief]

that would be a great customer service response. not sure what they could do to smooth out the problem. what would satisfy you? if you know what you think is fair, then you could present that to them. would some amount of money do the trick? if you went to resell your frame on the used market, i do think that gash would detract from the value by some real amount. just how much is hard to say. if it is a keeper no matter what, then you can call it a keeper with a small flaw.

i think this sticker is a reasonable approach:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Swedish-Flag-Sticker-Sweden-Vintage-Sports-Car-Racing-Decal-Volvo-Saab-/330867533924?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d093de864

[tuscanyswe]

Dont think the photo really show the damage. I have buffed alot of ti frames and parts with scotchbrite. This is a cut and it wont buff out. Id measure the deepth but the frame is at the shop.

Yes more worried about integrity down the line than the look of it. Not a big deal cosmeticly if i buff around the actual cut.

[eddief]

than we can appreciate as it is shown in the photo.

Dont think the photo really show the damage. I have buffed alot of ti frames and parts with scotchbrite. This is a cut and it wont buff out. Id measure the deepth but the frame is at the shop.

Yes more worried about integrity down the line than the look of it. Not a big deal cosmeticly if i buff around the actual cut.

[Mr Cabletwitch]

I would say the shop that cut your lock of did you a solid in the first place. They didn't have to cut the lock of for you, so it would really be a little harsh to punish someone for trying to help you out. Buff it and ride.

[tuscanyswe]

It may be nothing to worry about at all just id like to have some reinsurance of that and thats hard to get here since no ti builders or retails around and pics only say so much.

Yes resell is an issue for me. I have a Moots cross as well that ive been trying to sell cause the seven fit me slightly better. No luck in selling the Moots for the price i wanted. So listed the seven aswell as it would make better sense from an economical view since i bought the Seven used and the Moots i bought new. I actually had a buyer lined up for this.

Im not really that mad, honestly. Just sharing an unfortunate incident looking for feedback from fellow riders. I told the shop when i left it there today that i don't know what compensation i was looking for cause i dont really. Also said im not looking to be a pain in the butt cause its not my thing. Just asked them to look at it and tell me what they thought would be reasonable and if they could provide some insight to the possible damage and the integrity of the frame. They told me they would look at early next week.

[tuscanyswe]

I would say the shop that cut your lock of did you a solid in the first place. They didn't have to cut the lock of for you, so it would really be a little harsh to punish someone for trying to help you out. Buff it and ride.

Not trying to punish anyone for anything. Think you got the wrong idea here.
Its a service they provide and charge money for tho. How is that different from crimping your seattube when overtightening a front derailleur for instance?

I get what you mean tho im just not sure i agree.

[Tony T]

Ti tubes are thin, that cut looks deep, but hard to tell from the picture. You're right that the cut may be more than cometic.

[Mr Cabletwitch]

Not trying to punish anyone for anything. Think you got the wrong idea here.
Its a service they provide and charge money for tho. How is that different from crimping your seattube when overtightening a front derailleur for instance?

I get what you mean tho im just not sure i agree.


I don't think I understood. I thought is was a situation where you walked into the shop and either asked or they offered to cut off your lock. Didn't realize it was a service they advertised and you paid for, I guess then I would be a little ticked off too.

[tuscanyswe]

I don't think I understood. I thought is was a situation where you walked into the shop and either asked or they offered to cut off your lock. Didn't realize it was a service they advertised and you paid for, I guess then I would be a little ticked off too.


Well i dont know if its something they have listed on their price list of services or not. But i called them as they were closest to my location and asked if they did this. They said sure np just come up. Mechanic did it in a few minutes. Then i was charged i think something like 40 bux. Dunno if i kept the receipt or not.

[RedRider]

It's impossible to assess the damage from a photo and since it is a Seven they are the only one that can really determine if it is structural or cosmetic. I suggest having a knowledgeable Seven dealer evaluate it or contact the Factory direct. If it is necessary, do not let anyone but Seven make a repair.
Determine the damage and the cost of repair/refinishing then see if the "locksmith" will step up.

[cachagua]

Hard to assess with only the photo to go on. . . maybe document it carefully, then go on riding it and keep an eye on it, but I wouldn't expect catastrophic failure.

However if there's a lesson here, it isn't tube thicknesses or grinders or elevator shafts, it's spare keys. Living alone for a while, I learned this the hard way, several times. Spare keys and MORE spare keys.

[ctcyclistbob]

It's impossible to assess the damage from a photo and since it is a Seven they are the only one that can really determine if it is structural or cosmetic. I suggest having a knowledgeable Seven dealer evaluate it or contact the Factory direct. If it is necessary, do not let anyone but Seven make a repair.
Determine the damage and the cost of repair/refinishing then see if the "locksmith" will step up.

Yes, have Seven inspect, advise, and possibly repair. It's a nice frame and seems worth the cost of shipping back and forth (maybe the shop will cover this). If there is a high cost associated with any repair, then you can decide, but at least you'll know.

glad Påsk, or Buona Pasqua

[Ken Robb]

My layman's view is that it doesn't appear that it could "weaken" the tube more than a couple of holes for cage bosses.

[Peter P.]

I'm with Mr. Cabletwitch on this one.

Both parties are partially responsible for this problem. The mechanic is partially responsible for not at least making an attempt to protect the area. But you are partially responsible, and the situation wouldn't have occurred in the first place, if you didn't lose your key. The shop got you out of a real jamb, even if you paid them for their services. I'd be embarrassed to seek compensation.

I wouldn't be surprised if that blemish could be sanded out with a strip of emery cloth and Scotchbrite pads.

[eddief]

to have them rotate your tires. While they are doing that, they accidentally overtighten a lug nut and break off the stud. You pay, leave, and somehow when you get home you notice one wheel is missing the BOLT. Whose fault is that? Seems the cause and effect of the blem in the seat tube is pretty certain, so the shop did Tuscany no favor. Apparently a ham handed mechanic with a grinder phucked up his bike. may god punish each of us who loses a key.

I'm with Mr. Cabletwitch on this one.

Both parties are partially responsible for this problem. The mechanic is partially responsible for not at least making an attempt to protect the area. But you are partially responsible, and the situation wouldn't have occurred in the first place, if you didn't lose your key. The shop got you out of a real jamb, even if you paid them for their services. I'd be embarrassed to seek compensation.

I wouldn't be surprised if that blemish could be sanded out with a strip of emery cloth and Scotchbrite pads.

[AgilisMerlin]

If so inclined, send or visit a respectable builder and have them fill it (puddle it) with a rod.

just a thought.

[tuscanyswe]

Let me say it again..

Im not concearned with the visual stuff. If Its only a blem and the integrity of the frame has not been impaired its no biggie at all.

Hopefully its nothing. Lets hope for the best.

[mike p]

Doesn't look that serious but I'd be pissed as the shop employee should have really taken his time and been very careful! That said your probably SOL! How much time passed from grinder fix till you noticed damage? If it wasn't very little time at all like a matter of a few days I think your gonna chalk it up to lesson learned!

Mike

[tuscanyswe]

Doesn't look that serious but I'd be pissed as the shop employee should have really taken his time and been very careful! That said your probably SOL! How much time passed from grinder fix till you noticed damage? If it wasn't very little time at all like a matter of a few days I think your gonna chalk it up to lesson learned!

Mike

I think you may be right. The annoying thing is i actually thought to myself that i should tell him to put something between the frame and lock but i bit my tounge and dident say anything cause i know how frustrating it can be to have someone tell you how to do your job. So instead i just said its an expensive frame so please be careful as i watched the procedure.

Its been atleast 3 weeks... bugger.

[joosttx]

It's your fault dude. Don't drop keys down elevator shafts and not have spares. Don't let grinders come that close to your baby. Own it move forward.

[pdmtong]

It's your fault dude. Don't drop keys down elevator shafts and not have spares. Don't let grinders come that close to your baby. Own it move forward.

its harsh but I'd have to agree.also you did not notice/mention it right away. it's very hard to come back later and say, "remember when you took a grinder to my lock?"

I have no idea how to assess the tube integrity other than send it to seven or ask some ti builders for their opinion....

[tuscanyswe]

Yeah perhaps thats the cards im dealt.

Just shipping back n forth to seven or other reputable builder is prolly more cash than id like to spend investigating. Guess that settle which cross frame is a keeper then. This fits me abit better so maybe its for the best :)

Im sure it will all pan out in the long run. Win some loose some i guess.

[Tony T]

It's your fault dude. Don't drop keys down elevator shafts and not have spares. Don't let grinders come that close to your baby. Own it move forward.

The OP paid someone to provide a service, and they did not take proper precautions (i.e., protect the frame), so the LBS is at fault.

The OP's only 'fault' was not inspecting the frame before he took possession of the bike, and because of that, there is nothing he can do at this point.

[djg21]

The OP paid someone to provide a service, and they did not take proper precautions (i.e., protect the frame), so the LBS is at fault.

The OP's only 'fault' was not inspecting the frame before he took possession of the bike, and because of that, there is nothing he can do at this point.

**** happens sometimes. The bike wasn't irreparably damaged and the damage is purely cosmetic. If the shop hadn't been willing to help, the bike would still be locked up or the OP would be out $200.

If the LBS had charged hundreds of dollars to cut the lock, that would be one thing. But that was not the case. Give the LBS a hard time, and it will never go out of the way to help you or anyone else ever again. The OP shoulld suck it up and think of the minor blemish as a $200 stupid tax.

[tuscanyswe]

**** happens sometimes. The bike wasn't irreparably damaged and the damage is purely cosmetic. If the shop hadn't been willing to help, the bike would still be locked up or the OP would be out $200.

If the LBS had charged hundreds of dollars to cut the lock, that would be one thing. But that was not the case. Give the LBS a hard time, and it will never go out of the way to help you or anyone else ever again. The OP shoulld suck it up and think of the minor blemish as a $200 stupid tax.

- how do you know "the damage is purely cosmetic" ?
- And no it would not still be locked up. There are more than 1 shop or locksmiths around. Its not like its hard for a person with the tools to brake a bike lock..
- Should ppl ask before hand how much the charge is and then if its to small expect the job to be poorly done or ask to pay more?

In this particular case i dont care cause i should have inspected and i wont hold it against them should they say its not really much they can do. But that is some weird reasoning from you imo.

[Tony T]

**** happens sometimes. The bike wasn't irreparably damaged and the damage is purely cosmetic. If the shop hadn't been willing to help, the bike would still be locked up or the OP would be out $200.

The LBS ****'d up, and they knew that they ****'d up, but they said that it was the pedal that got hit when the grinder skipped.

So, not only was the LBS mechanic incompetent, but a liar as well.

....yeah, the OP should just "suck it up", and be "thankful" that the LBS only charged him $40. :rolleyes:

[tuscanyswe]

I dont think he knew he hit the frame. He dident act like it but hard to say i guess.

Questions like this is why i choose to post it here instead of a forum with local bikers. Just curious to c what ppl think about this and more convenient when you can talk openly without sounding like you are trying to spew **** on a particular bike store. + my love and quest for knowledge of TI are more shared here. Btw do you all pronounce TI as TIE? Meet an american the other day on the street asking me where i got my TIE bike.

[TPetsch]

Like Kestrel mentioned earlier, at this point I would break out my Dremel and polish the area until all the grind marks -potential crack hazards- are gone, than a little creative Scotch Bright'ing to try and match the original finish and hope for the best. Chalk it all up as another life lesson learned.

[eddief]

gotta get me a Tie bike.

I dont think he knew he hit the frame. He dident act like it but hard to say i guess.

Questions like this is why i choose to post it here instead of a forum with local bikers. Just curious to c what ppl think about this and more convenient when you can talk openly without sounding like you are trying to spew **** on a particular bike store. + my love and quest for knowledge of TI are more shared here. Btw do you all pronounce TI as TIE? Meet an american the other day on the street asking me where i got my TIE bike.

[jet sanchez]

You are SOL but it is just a scrape, who cares?

[Louis]

Polish it as best you can and keep riding it. Check it at the end of every ride and if nothing happens after a while check it once a week. Keep lengthening the inspection intervals until you're tired of checking it and you're convinced that it's fine.

If that approach won't work for you because you're too worried about it, then either get rid of the frame or have it fixed. I have no idea who's responsible for paying for the original abrasion.

[DukeHorn]

Tough call. The 3 weeks is an issue. What's to prevent any of us from going back to a LBS and claiming that a chip/dent/gouge from our daily commute is due to something they did a few weeks back?

For all the bike shop knows, maybe some bike thief took a hacksaw to a bike lock and marred the finish of the bike (that happened to a friend of mine).

Also, if you called it out at the time of damage, who knows how it would have been resolved. The guy may have refused to cut your lock off and you may have given in.

[joosttx]

its harsh but I'd have to agree.also you did not notice/mention it right away. it's very hard to come back later and say, "remember when you took a grinder to my lock?"

I have no idea how to assess the tube integrity other than send it to seven or ask some ti builders for their opinion....

You right are I was harsh. My apologies to the OP.

[djg21]

- how do you know "the damage is purely cosmetic" ?
- And no it would not still be locked up. There are more than 1 shop or locksmiths around. Its not like its hard for a person with the tools to brake a bike lock..
- Should ppl ask before hand how much the charge is and then if its to small expect the job to be poorly done or ask to pay more?

In this particular case i dont care cause i should have inspected and i wont hold it against them should they say its not really much they can do. But that is some weird reasoning from you imo.

The damage appears to me minimal given the size (a couple mm) and depth of the blemish. I'd just watch it for a few rides to make sure there is no cracking. Some of the Ti bikes I've owned over the years had larger scratches from rocks and road debris, crashes, etc.

I didn't mean to sound curt, but we all do stupid and regrettable things from time to time and have to accept the consequences. The shop appears to have gone out of the way to help you. I'd be gracious and let it go.

The analogy that comes to mind is a person rescued from peril suing the Good Samaritan.

[WickedWheels]

As a shop owner...

If a mechanic does something like that and it's a mechanical problem and/or bothers the rider then I'd suck it up and have the bike repaired by the manufacturer. In this case ask Seven to put in a new seat tube. Then the lesson is on me and there would be no more lock removal "services".

3 weeks later is a tough one, though... if a customer brings the bike back and the mechanic says "no way I did that"... especially if it's a customer that I didn't know real well I honestly don't know what I would do.

I had a customer with a Parlee (that I sold) whose wheels came out of true (that I sold) and rubbed a mark in his frame. I fixed the wheels, sent the frame back for repair (paid for it myself) and gave him a loaner (my personal bike for 3 weeks). He came back with a wobbly wheel again, this time with a major gash in it. I'll be re-rimming it and re-lacing it (also on me) even though it's his fault this time around. But this guy is a very good customer and I sold him his stuff.

My point is that if you're a regular at the shop it's not a bad idea to approach them (in a nice way) to let them know that you think this happened. Perhaps they will make it right in some way. If they don't, and I wouldn't necessarily expect them to, don't hold it against them. 3 weeks later is a very tough call.

[oldpotatoe]

We all have these stories.

Merckx frame cold set(and we have done hundreds) and the brake bridge pops off..126 to 130mm. My $.

Getting a stuck BB out of an aluminum Cinelli track frame(we didn't sell it), tool slips, big bango in the down tube. My $.

Build a set of DT4645..rear one makes all sorts of noise at the eyelets(first one I've seen, built hudreds). DT/Paceline warranties the rim(great guys, BTW) but my $ to rebuild it.

Lady buys a set of shimano MTB pedals..brings them back, says she can't get out of them...won't let me try to fix the problem..DEMANDS her $ back, starts to do the chicken-hands on hips, nose out..So I do. I suspect she found them for less $ somewhere. Pedals looked like crap, even tho only a week old..all scrapped up.

Lady gets fit by my fit guy..been doin' it for 3 decades. VERY interesting guy, been all over, very friendly in a GOOD way. Lady calls and threatens a law suit cuz he was so rude to her.

The joys of retail. Labor of 'like' for sure.

[Marz]

My layman's view is that it doesn't appear that it could "weaken" the tube more than a couple of holes for cage bosses.

^ this.

[eippo1]

One thing I will add to this is that I've done a fair amount of stuff with a finder including scoring metal etc and that looks exactly what I'd expect to see from an errant hit. Wouldn't take much to make a heck of a mark on it and I would be concerned especially with the thin tubing of titanium. A grinder chews through thick steel like butter, a glance off Ti would likely cause major damage.

Stuff happens and this is one of those things where stuff happened offering a service that was paid for. Hence, even if it's not fair, the shop should probably cover a replaced tube. I work in a shop and have seen the scenarios that oldpotato describes often enough (especially that last one), and if something happens where the a service is being provided, such as when a customer wrecked on a test ride, the shop ended up paying for it.

[avalonracing]

Ever cut a Titanium bolt with Dremel. It sparks like the coolest thing you have ever seen. I would think that if the grinder did touch that frame they guy using it would have noticed.

[pbarry]

From the image posted, the grinder mark looks to be .005" deep +/-. OK to ride IMO. Send a large cropped image file to Seven and see what they say.

[eddief]

an old potatoe :). each one sounds like it would take a month off your life.

We all have these stories.

Merckx frame cold set(and we have done hundreds) and the brake bridge pops off..126 to 130mm. My $.

Getting a stuck BB out of an aluminum Cinelli track frame(we didn't sell it), tool slips, big bango in the down tube. My $.

Build a set of DT4645..rear one makes all sorts of noise at the eyelets(first one I've seen, built hudreds). DT/Paceline warranties the rim(great guys, BTW) but my $ to rebuild it.

Lady buys a set of shimano MTB pedals..brings them back, says she can't get out of them...won't let me try to fix the problem..DEMANDS her $ back, starts to do the chicken-hands on hips, nose out..So I do. I suspect she found them for less $ somewhere. Pedals looked like crap, even tho only a week old..all scrapped up.

Lady gets fit by my fit guy..been doin' it for 3 decades. VERY interesting guy, been all over, very friendly in a GOOD way. Lady calls and threatens a law suit cuz he was so rude to her.

The joys of retail. Labor of 'like' for sure.

[tuscanyswe]

I heard back from seven and they said its most likely nothing to worry about but to keep an eye on it. Thats abit of a relief even tho pics just say so much.