Good job Bill/Ben

[Jason E]

I give y'all **** all the time for not doing this, yet here you have done just this and it is pimp.

No article required, find it if you want, but the picture says what needs to be said.

http://serotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Officer_Final_Build-8.jpg

[texbike]

I give y'all **** all the time for not doing this, yet here you have done just this and it is pimp.

No article required, find it if you want, but the picture says what needs to be said.

http://serotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Officer_Final_Build-8.jpg

I saw that across the hall. Definitely one of the sharpest out of the factory in awhile. If this is the path that they're taking, there may be hope after all... :cool:

Texbike

[regularguy412]

Woot! Few visible wires.

I could wake up next to that.

Mike in AR:beer:

[buddybikes]

It needs pedals to ride....

[spiderman]

That's a stunner!

[TPetsch]

Now "That" is one sweet looking ride!

[Bruce K]

I believe "that" is the new Pronto.

The first (or one of the first) off the production floor.

Very slick.

BK

[TPetsch]

I believe "that" is the new Pronto.

The first (or one of the first) off the production floor.

Very slick.

BK

I thought the Pronto -& Fondo- was a new -reasonably priced- Ti frame?... "This" one looks to be Carbon?

[Jason E]

That's not a Ti bike.

[FlashUNC]

No way that's Ti.

Is purty either way.

[LegendRider]

http://serotta.com/tom-officer/

It's a MeiVici SE.

[chuckroast]

I really, really like the graphics on that.

[MattTuck]

I really, really like the graphics on that.

yep.

We eat with our eyes first. Even if you make the best riding bike in the world, if you don't spend the time on the design/graphics, it will not capture people's desires.

[Louis]

I find this to be quite amusing - I know that for ages it's been fashionable to criticize Serotta, even as they hosted the very forum on which that b!tching was taking place, but did anyone seriously think that Serotta had stopped making bikes like this? (or bikes that match some other arbitrary definition of what the kool kids call "proper")

[MattTuck]

I find this to be quite amusing - I know that for ages it's been fashionable to criticize Serotta, even as they hosted the very forum on which that b!tching was taking place, but did anyone seriously think that Serotta had stopped making bikes like this? (or bikes that match some other arbitrary definition of what the kool kids call "proper")

I thought they were making Huffies again. ;)

[firerescuefin]

I find this to be quite amusing - I know that for ages it's been fashionable to criticize Serotta, even as they hosted the very forum on which that b!tching was taking place, but did anyone seriously think that Serotta had stopped making bikes like this? (or bikes that match some other arbitrary definition of what the kool kids call "proper")

No...they weren't reaching anyone but their core fan base..and even they were losing faith n the direction of the company. If your not relevant with a customer base that is big enough to pay your bills...you're done. Agreed JasonE...diggin it:cool:

[happycampyer]

It's not just the bike, but who is riding it—Tom Officer, who is one bad mo fo on the bike, and one of the nicest guys off of it.

Serotta Tom Officer » Serotta (http://serotta.com/tom-officer/)

[93legendti]

I give y'all **** all the time for not doing this, yet here you have done just this and it is pimp.

No article required, find it if you want, but the picture says what needs to be said.

http://serotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Officer_Final_Build-8.jpg

Just our size.

I like it.

[Louis]

No...they weren't reaching anyone but their core fan base..and even they were losing faith n the direction of the company. If your not relevant with a customer base that is big enough to pay your bills...you're done.

When I read "It is pimp" I interpret that to mean "I like this bike for what it is." I'm not a mind-reader, but the kudos I've seen have commented on how "proper" the bike looks, implying that somehow for a while they were not willing or able to make that type of bike.

[Jason E]

They were not able to show a connection to the industry in being able to build and set-up, market and show an aggressive and to me (and others) attractive bike.

They've got low quality grainy picks on their website of bikes with awkward bar and saddle set up, long head tubes by proportion, and uninspiring graphics.

This presumption that I am solely enjoying the bike because the cool kids like the way it is set up is garbage and myopic. This bike is closer to the way MY bikes are set up, and I can relate to it as both aesthetically pleasing AND something that to me is set up as able to be ridden.

To your most recent post, respectfully; it is pimp. I DO like it for what it is. It is how MY bikes look. They may have been willing to build, but they were not showing.

W.T.F.... I give them a hard time, apologize when they belly up with a bike I want to buy and I'm a shallow elitist. Last I checked, marketing starts here, not with a trek 7100.

Nothing personal, Louis.

[Louis]

They were not able to show a connection to the industry in being able to build and set-up, market and show an aggressive and to me (and others) attractive bike.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally don't go for bikes with that much slope on the TT, so that particular frame isn't my sort of thing, but I can understand that others might like (or need) that layout.

[flyhippy]

I'm just digging the lugs... But not sure why people are impressed by the decals - I think the color scheme looks like crap and hate the new dura ace cranks. Wont find me dropping what has to be well over 6 grand for this (won't even take the time to see what the price is).

[sevencyclist]

I like it! Hope it will roll for many happy miles.

[carlucci1106]

...it looks pimp, because you would have to be one (pimpin ain't easy) to afford this bike.

9000 DA Di2: check
custom graphics: check
$2000+ Wheelset: check
Meivici frame: check

What's that, about $16K?

Still waiting to see what $4K is going to buy, and that is wherein the real challenge lays.

I believe Serotta can make a beautiful custom bike. Perhaps they should offer some graphics like this one on the Pronto for a small upcharge. The half painted look is cool. Like Winter Bicycles, the "ready custom" should have really custom-looking paint scheme as a standard offering. I really like that about Eric E's new bikes. Still looks custom. If the Pronto looks like the Fondo, it will not excite someone who thinks $4K+ is a lifetime bike. Which, for a lot of people out there, it is.

[Jack Brunk]

Not trying to be one but what is special about the bike? I know Officer from the Vsalon is supposed to be a real beast but What set's this bike apart from a bunch of other really nice carbon frame makers? Good on Serotta for getting back into racing. If that bike is +10k then well not that good, maybe. I just got back from 3 hours of climbing my you know what off so maybe I'm off. Being on the west coast, I'd love a hard core titanium 29er marathon titanium bike. Marathon mountain biking is huge from the rocky mtn's west.
Sorry for the dirt rant!

[pdmtong]

Not trying to be one but what is special about the bike? I know Officer from the Vsalon is supposed to be a real beast but What set's this bike apart from a bunch of other really nice carbon frame makers? Good on Serotta for getting back into racing. If that bike is +10k then well not that good, maybe. I just got back from 3 hours of climbing my you know what off so maybe I'm off. Being on the west coast, I'd love a hard core titanium 29er marathon titanium bike. Marathon mountain biking is huge from the rocky mtn's west.
Sorry for the dirt rant!

hey jack (uh er richard?....hey, just kidding!) ..Let me just say I love dirt as much as you. hence my ventana full-suspension tandem that wife and I single track on.

but, the answer to your question SHOULD BE because now the rider can have a no-holds-full-gas race machine AND (because of rider specific geo and pipes) optimize the spider-diagram for every parameter that matters - handling, stiffness, comfort, power xfer, [insert bicycling magazine characteristic here]. so you get what you expect...from say a tarmac SL4 and waaaaay more. the classic serotta ride. the artisan craftsmanship. the fully vertically integrated mfg yada yada. I know that your meivici 1 and 2 didn't work, but assuming they did, finally here we have a proper race rig with an aspirational kit and paint/decal... a far cry from 56 cm bikes with 19cm HTs

BTW I love the paint treatment to the fork

[Matthew]

I think it looks great. If this was one of us average Joe's showing off this bike in the custom or production bike sections this thing would get all rave reviews from everyone. But since it is on Serotta's site and is ridden by someone with the company there is the need for some of you to criticize it like virtually everything else they do. If this had Firefly logos you would be falling all over yourselves to compliment it and would not even mention the price. We get it. It's expensive. And you can easily spend over ten grand on a foreign made production bike too.

[Peter B]

It's not just the bike, but who is riding it—Tom Officer, who is one bad mo fo on the bike, and one of the nicest guys off of it.

Serotta Tom Officer » Serotta (http://serotta.com/tom-officer/)

Quietly doing what needs to be done. Good work Bill & Ben.

How 'bout we all keep an open mind and let these guys demonstrate their vision.

[Bruce K]

Yeah, not the Pronto quite yet (got fooled by the new graphic) but the Pronto is their new Ti race bike headed for a much lower price point than Officer's all-out racer.

BK

[rnhood]

I'm sure its way out of my price range but if I was to get a Serotta, that would be it. Dura Ace drive train, C35 wheels, carbon, great paint and graphics....really nicely spec'd out.

[beeatnik]

That's s dope Italianese cockpit. Getting tired of all the ENVE.

[soulspinner]

This bike does what Baum, Vanilla, and Spectrum do. The look and performance blend into lustworthy (even if Im not worthy). I really like the look.

[soulspinner]

that's s dope italianese cockpit. Getting tired of all the enve.

+1

[William]

It hit the mark, that's why you are all talking about it mainly in the positive. That's exactly what they need to do to get some momentum going for the brand. If they can hit the same mark with the Pronto the buzz continues to build. I don't think anyone here really ever complained about the build quality of Serotta, it's been the interface with the public that has been lacking up until now. The "look" (that excites) and the "hook" (a price range that people will buy into) is what's needed.






William

[LegendRider]

It hit the mark, that's why you are all talking about it mainly in the positive. That's exactly what they need to do to get some momentum going for the brand. If they can hit the same mark with the Pronto the buzz continues to build. I don't think anyone here really ever complained about the build quality of Serotta, it's been the interface with the public that has been lacking up until now. The "look" (that excites) and the "hook" (a price range that people will buy into) is what's needed.

William

Nice summary - agree fully.

By the way, I'd like to see a cost comparison between the Serotta and a Colnago C59 and a Parlee Z1x -- both hand-made lugged carbon frames.

[ergott]

By the way, I'd like to see a cost comparison between the Serotta and a Colnago C59 and a Parlee Z1x -- both hand-made lugged carbon frames.

No you don't;)

Seriously, I won't consider the Meivici over a C59 or similar unless I was going to do something that the C59 can't. I can ride normal geometry so that's not an issue for me. What would be a killer bike and would make me get a Meivici is getting a Meivici Pave. The potential customization of the Meivici is where it surpasses all but a few other builders working in carbon.

If they want to sponsor me with one of those I'll be sure to give it some great press (I'm quite sure it would deserve it) and ride the snot out of it.

[oldpotatoe]

Nice summary - agree fully.

By the way, I'd like to see a cost comparison between the Serotta and a Colnago C59 and a Parlee Z1x -- both hand-made lugged carbon frames.

Cost or price?

According to an online place that sells Colnago-it would be about $13,000, but I think the pictured Serotta would be about $16,000-no?

Colnago F/F, C-59 is about $5000.

Mevici is $8295, F/F

Parlee is about $7000, F/F

But even me who is 'puter dumb, can find this stuff.

[LegendRider]

Cost or price?

According to an online place that sells Colnago-it would be about $13,000, but I think the pictured Serotta would be about $18,000-no?

Colnago F/F, C-59 is about $5000.

Mevici is $8295, F/F

Parlee is about $7000, F/F

But even me who is 'puter dumb, can find this stuff.

OK, so you made me do my own research...
WrenchScience has the Colnago at $5,900
Above Category has the Parlee at $6,900

Colnago has the cache, but my experience with warranty support is poor. Nevertheless, plenty of people will jump at the C59 - it's a gorgeous bike. Parlee seems like the clear winner here - thought I'd never pay that kind of money for a frame. (Ironically, I own a custom Z1x, but it was purchased before the prices skyrocketed.) So, it comes down to how Serotta justifies the premium.

[oldpotatoe]

OK, so you made me do my own research...
WrenchScience has the Colnago at $5,900
Above Category has the Parlee at $6,900

Colnago has the cache, but my experience with warranty support is poor. Nevertheless, plenty of people will jump at the C59 - it's a gorgeous bike. Parlee seems like the clear winner here - thought I'd never pay that kind of money for a frame. (Ironically, I own a custom Z1x, but it was purchased before the prices skyrocketed.) So, it comes down to how Serotta justifies the premium.

Sold Colnago..if there is a warranty, it was a warranty from the distributor. The 'factory' never had a warranty, citing it was a 'racing frame' and no warranty, grazie. PLUS online sale prices meant couldn't complete(Maestro-UK).

Sold Parlee also, and the sales of such went to zero after Bob raised his prices about 40%.

Asked him at NAHBS in Portland about this and he mentioned, 'yep, expensive, even I can't afford one'..giggle, giggle..I didn't think it was very funny.

Talked to 3 owners of Parlee who bought frames from me and asked all if they would buy one at the higher prices and they all said -no. Even the gent that owned a Ferrari.

[AngryScientist]

So, it comes down to how Serotta justifies the premium.

i dont know if the other players do custom tuned carbon tubes, but if you read the article on the Serotta site linked about Tom and this bike, he mentions that he is choosing a Serotta because he wanted a bike tuned for him specifically. he indicates that other carbon frames that fit him are not particularly optimized for a rider of his weight, but made to cover the masses that might buy the bike.

custom custom custom is where Serotta shines. he also mentions that (both in the article and his comments across the hall) that he was very happy with the thorough fit process involved with getting the frame made.

i dont know tom personally, but his resume speaks for itself, and while i am also critical of Serotta, Tom's endorsement says a lot IMO. they are very much in the game, and i think they do bring a lot to the table.

[shovelhd]

He's a great friggin guy. I race with him a lot.

[93legendti]

If bikes are compared by price only, let's make sure to bring up Habanero ti bikes every time Moots is discussed.

[mjb266]

He's a great friggin guy. I race with him a lot.

This is just as important if not more so than making a bike look great. Tom can ride and is generous in sharing his knowledge of the sport with others. Keep putting awesome folks on awesome bikes.

[oldpotatoe]

If bikes are compared by price only, let's make sure to bring up Habanero ti bikes every time Moots is discussed.

Nice, exactly the same, BTW..sold those too, a few. Very nicely made frames.

Or the Z4/5 and the Mevici. Or the Fondo/Pronto and the Hab.

[William]

C'mon guys, I don't care who's is longer.;) Keep it civil.:)






William

[jpw]

I believe "that" is the new Pronto.

The first (or one of the first) off the production floor.

Very slick.

BK

No.

It's a Meivici. Wake up :rolleyes::)

[jpw]

Sold Colnago..if there is a warranty, it was a warranty from the distributor. The 'factory' never had a warranty, citing it was a 'racing frame' and no warranty, grazie.
.

no warranty? who would agree to those terms of purchase? that has to be in contravention of consumer law.

[jpw]

Cost or price?

According to an online place that sells Colnago-it would be about $13,000, but I think the pictured Serotta would be about $16,000-no?

Colnago F/F, C-59 is about $5000.

Mevici is $8295, F/F

Parlee is about $7000, F/F

But even me who is 'puter dumb, can find this stuff.

it's about finding the sweet spot on the price elasticity of demand curve. Hopefully they've each found theirs.

[beeatnik]

The C59 is sold with a seat post!

Dealer cost is below 3500...at least that's what my buddy who rides a murdered out one paid for his. So, a good shop would have some room on the price. And, IIRC, Colnago has their NA headquarters in Chicago so all warranty claims would go through there.

OK, so you made me do my own research...
WrenchScience has the Colnago at $5,900
Above Category has the Parlee at $6,900

Colnago has the cache, but my experience with warranty support is poor. Nevertheless, plenty of people will jump at the C59 - it's a gorgeous bike. Parlee seems like the clear winner here - thought I'd never pay that kind of money for a frame. (Ironically, I own a custom Z1x, but it was purchased before the prices skyrocketed.) So, it comes down to how Serotta justifies the premium.

[Pete Mckeon]

:) your face (that is one independent of price - for all the expensive and you still need a pair of wheels (to complement and make you smile) and then the group that does the same things.:eek:


Yes I am biased about SEROTTA but the other main brands are good also. PArlee's have a nice but a different ride. their are many Pinarello, Willier, Trek, and SEROTTA here this week in TX, I have my old trusty Ti going over the cattle crossings and avoiding the dung heaps.

There is a lady from Colordo which has a Willier carbon and also Campy SR EPS as well as campy wheels. She has then working very well for her smile and riding.

True custom bikes are not only tube length but angles and make up ot the carbon in order to deliver the type of ride you want. It makes a big difference from those that just have a specific length and angle for a given set of riders. read 'ANGRY SCIENCE " post for real info:cool:


if you quote the price of any of these to a non cyclist you might have them laughing silently at you. Always tell them a figure of about $5k no matter what cost - for they will be astounded but not think you are completely nuts

[Bruce K]

jpw

I already admitted to jumping the gun and missing the lugs

The paint scheme got me

Maybe you should read the whole thread before jumping in

:fight:

BK

[rustylion]

No, that is not the Pronto; it is the MeiVici SE we built for Tom.

However, Tom will also be competing on a Pronto in 2013.

Our internal riding/testing Pronto prototypes are in production now and we will be out on the roads with them soon. Hoping to get them to the market shortly.

Thanks.

I believe "that" is the new Pronto.

The first (or one of the first) off the production floor.

Very slick.

BK

[jpw]

jpw

I already admitted to jumping the gun and missing the lugs

The paint scheme got me

Maybe you should read the whole thread before jumping in

:fight:

BK

I did read it. I still wanted to rib you for it, so I did. Sue me :)

[rustylion]

You are right! The timing on changing it is a matter of too many things to do with too little time and resources.

The website is being updated slow but sure. This week we completed the SE rebuild. Other parts soon so stay tuned to www.serotta.com.

Thanks.

They were not able to show a connection to the industry in being able to build and set-up, market and show an aggressive and to me (and others) attractive bike.

They've got low quality grainy picks on their website of bikes with awkward bar and saddle set up, long head tubes by proportion, and uninspiring graphics.

This presumption that I am solely enjoying the bike because the cool kids like the way it is set up is garbage and myopic. This bike is closer to the way MY bikes are set up, and I can relate to it as both aesthetically pleasing AND something that to me is set up as able to be ridden.

To your most recent post, respectfully; it is pimp. I DO like it for what it is. It is how MY bikes look. They may have been willing to build, but they were not showing.

W.T.F.... I give them a hard time, apologize when they belly up with a bike I want to buy and I'm a shallow elitist. Last I checked, marketing starts here, not with a trek 7100.

Nothing personal, Louis.

[Bruce K]

I know, Bill

Again, got fooled by the new paint scheme and didn't notice the lugs

So can we see a Pronto, pronto, please?

BK

[rustylion]

The pronto will have 2- and 3-color very cool finish options as well as incredible build kit choices. I think you will like what you see....soon.

Thanks.

...it looks pimp, because you would have to be one (pimpin ain't easy) to afford this bike.

9000 DA Di2: check
custom graphics: check
$2000+ Wheelset: check
Meivici frame: check

What's that, about $16K?

Still waiting to see what $4K is going to buy, and that is wherein the real challenge lays.

I believe Serotta can make a beautiful custom bike. Perhaps they should offer some graphics like this one on the Pronto for a small upcharge. The half painted look is cool. Like Winter Bicycles, the "ready custom" should have really custom-looking paint scheme as a standard offering. I really like that about Eric E's new bikes. Still looks custom. If the Pronto looks like the Fondo, it will not excite someone who thinks $4K+ is a lifetime bike. Which, for a lot of people out there, it is.

[rustylion]

A bit more to comparing those frame sets than simply whether they are hand-made lugged carbon frames and then stop at the price....

Just saying...

Thanks.

Nice summary - agree fully.

By the way, I'd like to see a cost comparison between the Serotta and a Colnago C59 and a Parlee Z1x -- both hand-made lugged carbon frames.

[LegendRider]

I think Serotta is really smart to sponsor individual athletes like Tom since they don't have the budget to outfit a team. Tom's street cred is unquestionable.

Serotta should probably find a West-coast equivalent masters racer stud and do the same thing.

As for price, when comparing these "super bikes" I wonder how price sensitive the actual buyers are. I know NO ONE who walked in the door of an LBS and walked out with $10,000+ bike. Obviously these people exist, I just don't know who they are.

[rustylion]

Just don't want to overpromise and underdeliver.

The custom headsets is holding us up at the moment....we do not have a confirmed delivery date yet.

We have enough headsets for our own internal testing bikes so we will have Prontos out on the road shortly...

Thanks.

I know, Bill

Again, got fooled by the new paint scheme and didn't notice the lugs

So can we see a Pronto, pronto, please?

BK

[oldpotatoe]

no warranty? who would agree to those terms of purchase? that has to be in contravention of consumer law.

Like I said, when Trialtir and Todson imported them, they did a 1 or 2 year warranty but Todson ended up with a basement full of BiTitans..double downtube, russian ti,,lots broke at the BB.

No consumer law I know of says ya gotta have a warranty, AFAIK. Besides, Italian company, don't think they cared about US law.

[jpw]

Like I said, when Trialtir and Todson imported them, they did a 1 or 2 year warranty but Todson ended up with a basement full of BiTitans..double downtube, russian ti,,lots broke at the BB.

No consumer law I know of says ya gotta have a warranty, AFAIK. Besides, Italian company, don't think they cared about US law.

That sounds like a financial disaster.

I can't imagine buying any product that lacks a warranty of some sort - 'fit for purpose'?

[LegendRider]

A bit more to comparing those frame sets than simply whether they are hand-made lugged carbon frames and then stop at the price....

Just saying...

Thanks.

If I had narrowed my choice to a Z1x or MeiVici SE how would you attempt to persuade me to the Serotta? The Z1x has five tube options, so it appears there is some ability to tune the ride characteristics. Reading the marketing info, I can't distinguish between the two.

http://www.parleecycles.com/z1-overview/
http://serotta.com/bicycles/meivici-se/

I know tone is difficult to convey online and I want to make sure you understand this is a sincere question, and I'm not trying to take a dig at Serotta. I genuinely want you to succeed.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . for Tom's bike:

http://serotta.com/tom-officer-meivici-se-build-gallery/

BBD

[jr59]

A bit more to comparing those frame sets than simply whether they are hand-made lugged carbon frames and then stop at the price....

Just saying...

Thanks.

This is the heart of the problem, both here on the forums, and in the real world.

[Jason E]

Just don't want to overpromise and underdeliver.

The custom headsets is holding us up at the moment....we do not have a confirmed delivery date yet.

We have enough headsets for our own internal testing bikes so we will have Prontos out on the road shortly...

Thanks.

Interesting teaser.... Looking forward to it! ETA?

[cmbicycles]

I give y'all **** all the time for not doing this, yet here you have done just this and it is pimp.

No article required, find it if you want, but the picture says what needs to be said.

http://serotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Officer_Final_Build-8.jpg

It's VCU colors, just in time for the NCAA tourney

[rustylion]

It would be a privilege to detail for you what I beleive I have learned in the last 5 months about what we do, what others do and where we think the differences might be.

But I wonder if we took this discussion offline, whether it might be more appropriate and respectful of the forum? Then, it would be up to you to share whatever you want but at least, I'm not billboard advertising all over the forum. PM me if you want. Or, email and/or call.

I would be excited to hear from you....

Thanks for the question.

If I had narrowed my choice to a Z1x or MeiVici SE how would you attempt to persuade me to the Serotta? The Z1x has five tube options, so it appears there is some ability to tune the ride characteristics. Reading the marketing info, I can't distinguish between the two.

http://www.parleecycles.com/z1-overview/
http://serotta.com/bicycles/meivici-se/

I know tone is difficult to convey online and I want to make sure you understand this is a sincere question, and I'm not trying to take a dig at Serotta. I genuinely want you to succeed.

[rustylion]

I would say my answer is appropriate.

I arrived here recently as a cycling consumer who only knew what I read (not much from Serotta) or experienced myself riding/racing Serottas and lots of other brands. Like a dentist, I've had to extract what we do and why it matters from everyone here, Ben included. To move forward with the brand and our messaging, I really had to determine what I had to work with.

I was wide open to finding out we were the same as everyone else. All I cared about was knowing "what is" so I could craft a company/brand direction that could be validated by other-than-hype, rhetoric and/or opinion.

So, in answer to your comment: yes, in the real world I sincerely believe we have a distinguishable bike. No, I don't think it respectful for me to use the forum to blah-blah the details behind why we believe that. For that, you can go to our website, read our blogs, listen to our owners, visit a Serotta Factory Professional or take a comparative test ride(same fit, same wheels, same route).

Not sure where you are geographically, but you are welcome to take that demo ride here with me in Saratoga Springs. Bring your favorite bike, we will give you another one and then we will point you to some awesome test ride routes.

Thanks for challenging us...
This is the heart of the problem, both here on the forums, and in the real world.

[Pete Mckeon]

It really depends which you like the ride and looks (and puts a smile on your face more.). I have a hsg and rode a Z5 at ride the rockies they both were excellent but different rides) As many know I am Serotta biased for a long time so:bike::


If I had narrowed my choice to a Z1x or MeiVici SE how would you attempt to persuade me to the Serotta? The Z1x has five tube options, so it appears there is some ability to tune the ride characteristics. Reading the marketing info, I can't distinguish between the two.

http://www.parleecycles.com/z1-overview/
http://serotta.com/bicycles/meivici-se/

I know tone is difficult to convey online and I want to make sure you understand this is a sincere question, and I'm not trying to take a dig at Serotta. I genuinely want you to succeed.

[Climb01742]

I Not sure where you are geographically, but you are welcome to take that demo ride here with me in Saratoga Springs. Bring your favorite bike, we will give you another one and then we will point you to some awesome test ride routes.

Thanks for challenging us...

Bill,

If someone were to travel to the factory, which frames might be available for test rides? Speaking for myself, I'll never buy another custom frame based on 'trust us, we'll get it right' from any builder. That batting average is way below the Mendoza line.

But beginning with a known quantity as a baseline, i.e. a specific test frame, getting to a great outcome by saying I like this, I wish this were different, that would be a process I could believe in.

A bike you don't like is expensive at any price, while a bike you love and ride the crap out of is cheap at any price. Well, ok, at least reasonable at any price.

Thanks.

[Pete Mckeon]

:bike::)Bill,

If someone were to travel to the factory, which frames might be available for test rides? Speaking for myself, I'll never buy another custom frame based on 'trust us, we'll get it right' from any builder. That batting average is way below the Mendoza line.

But beginning with a known quantity as a baseline, i.e. a specific test frame, getting to a great outcome by saying I like this, I wish this were different, that would be a process I could believe in.

A bike you don't like is expensive at any price, while a bike you love and ride the crap out of is cheap at any price. Well, ok, at least reasonable at any price.

Thanks.

[shovelhd]

I would say my answer is appropriate.

I think the point he is trying to make is that a lot of people feel that Serotta is in the state they are in because they didn't differentiate themselves. The brand messaging wasn't clear. They stood on their laurels of being at the top of the sport with famous names riding their product for too long. They did not update their branding and marketing to keep up with the times. They expect people to know who they are, know what they are about, and why their product commands a premium. People are excited about the transformation of the company and want to hear more, but it's not time yet. It causes frustration.

I think Tom's bike is drop dead gorgeous and a fantastic start.

[Climb01742]

There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance. In the past, it felt at moments, that serotta was on the wrong side of that line.

Bill, thus far you're communicating on the right side of the line. But where I think there may be a disconnect is...many potential customers may remember the arrogance. While its fair of you to say that the arrogance was before your time, it may not be wise to act as if it didn't happen. Every brand is a continuum. This thread is an example. Steps you are taking are seen one way by you. But as this thread points out, others see today's steps through the prism of past (mis)steps. Unless the past is addressed somehow, it may haunt you for awhile. Addressing it may put it to rest. There certainly are different brand management theories for how the past and the present should be addressed. There is no more reasonable or thoughtful poster on this forum than 1centaur. Taking his comments to heart is usually a good idea, even his views on economics.;)

[jr59]

I would say my answer is appropriate.

I arrived here recently as a cycling consumer who only knew what I read (not much from Serotta) or experienced myself riding/racing Serottas and lots of other brands. Like a dentist, I've had to extract what we do and why it matters from everyone here, Ben included. To move forward with the brand and our messaging, I really had to determine what I had to work with.

I was wide open to finding out we were the same as everyone else. All I cared about was knowing "what is" so I could craft a company/brand direction that could be validated by other-than-hype, rhetoric and/or opinion.

So, in answer to your comment: yes, in the real world I sincerely believe we have a distinguishable bike. No, I don't think it respectful for me to use the forum to blah-blah the details behind why we believe that. For that, you can go to our website, read our blogs, listen to our owners, visit a Serotta Factory Professional or take a comparative test ride(same fit, same wheels, same route).

Not sure where you are geographically, but you are welcome to take that demo ride here with me in Saratoga Springs. Bring your favorite bike, we will give you another one and then we will point you to some awesome test ride routes.

Thanks for challenging us...


I think the point he is trying to make is that a lot of people feel that Serotta is in the state they are in because they didn't differentiate themselves. The brand messaging wasn't clear. They stood on their laurels of being at the top of the sport with famous names riding their product for too long. They did not update their branding and marketing to keep up with the times. They expect people to know who they are, know what they are about, and why their product commands a premium. People are excited about the transformation of the company and want to hear more, but it's not time yet. It causes frustration.

I think Tom's bike is drop dead gorgeous and a fantastic start.

First Bill, you missed my point.
Shovel touches on it a bit, buy not enough. Serotta needs to educate the younger riders into why they are better that a custom Trek, or a parlee, or a calfee or any other brand. besides they cost more!

You can say blah, blah, blah on your blog all day every day and the only people you are telling is your fan club. That may make you feel good, but it isn't going to help one bit. Those people already believe! You need to educate the masses!

As far as me coming to Saratoga Springs anytime soon again. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! Not because of Serotta, just personal reasons. As far as you guys giving me a bike to ride to compare, maybe it would be better. Different for sure, better, doubtful. As Tom Kellogg and Dave Wages make very nice bikes.

Besides, Serotta didn't want to sell me a bike when I wanted one, They told me NO, have to go to the dealer and the dealer was over 500 miles away! I know this was before your time, but still. Would you be in a hurry to buy a bike from a company that did this to you if the roles were reversed? I HIGHLY doubt it!

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. And I wish you well, but until you can convince the public why your bikes are the most money, you are going to spend a LOT of time, effort and your money on a bike co that doesn't sell well!
Good luck!

[Jason E]

[shaking head] Every single Serotta post spirals down...

It is not my forum, so I have nothing but my opinion... That said I was hoping to post this pic so people could feel good about the brand we've been bashing on.

Let's take a break and wait for some Pronto pics...

[Len J]

Just don't want to overpromise and underdeliver.

The custom headsets is holding us up at the moment....we do not have a confirmed delivery date yet.

We have enough headsets for our own internal testing bikes so we will have Prontos out on the road shortly...

Thanks.

What would the reasons be to use a custom headset?

Wouldn't it make more sense to use something available in the market?

You have my curiosity up.

Len

[William]

[shaking head] Every single Serotta post spirals down...

It is not my forum, so I have nothing but my opinion... That said I was hoping to post this pic so people could feel good about the brand we've been bashing on.

Let's take a break and wait for some Pronto pics...

As Climb apply touched on, there are a lot of people who were putt off by past actions of the company and many are still looking at Serotta today with the fires still smoldering. To be fair to both sides, anyone with past negative experiences will look at the new Serotta through the smoke. The new Serotta wants to move forward and have people forget the past, but that isn't going to happen. As many of you in business know, it takes years to build a good name and reputation, and little time at all for it to get trashed when a company can't or won't communicate and respond.

I know it may be hard for some of you to let go (and yes, I had a few issues of my own with the old Serotta), but it's a new company with new leadership that's trying to navigate the rocks of the past to get to clear water. I for one am willing to give the new captain a chance to pull it out. Constructive criticism is fair, raking the new owner for transgressions of the old...not so much. Imo of course.:)








William

[Len J]

As Climb apply touched on, there are a lot of people who were putt off by past actions of the company and many are still looking at Serotta today with the fires still smoldering. To be fair to both sides, anyone with past negative experiences will look at the new Serotta through the smoke. The new Serotta wants to move forward and have people forget the past, but that isn't going to happen. As many of you in business knows, it takes years to build a good name and reputation, and little time at all for it to get trashed when a company can't or won't communicate and respond.

I know it may be hard for some of you to let go (and yes, I had a few issues of my own with the old Serotta), but it's a new company with new leadership that's trying to navigate the rocks of the past to get to clear water. I for one am willing to give the new captain a chance to pull it out. Constructive criticism is fair, raking the new owner for transgressions of the old...not so much. Imo of course.:)








William

It's better this way than if no one gave a ****. :)

The trump card, the reason people care so much is because the bikes are so awesome. I've owned 4, still have 2, and they are just great bikes. Hard stop.

But the brand has been so eroded over the last several years that its frustrating to those of us that love the bikes.

I personally am really enjoying the re energizing of the brand that is happening. You can smell it coming before you can see it. I suspect the majority of the comments are aimed at providing useful feedback to Bill from people like me that want them to succeed. Of course there are a few that don't fall into that category, but you are never going to get 100% buy-in.

Toms description of his first ride on his Meivici across the hall resonates with all of us that have bought a Serotta. That's the differentiator......the hard part is communicating that in a way that people believe and more importantly value enough to pay the premium.

I'm seeing progress and look forward to seeing how they solve that problem.

Len

[BumbleBeeDave]

They expected people to know who they are, know what they are about, and why their product commands a premium.

. . . with one small but important edit added.

Serotta DID expect these things--in the past. Living close to the factory myself, I've talked to Bill enough to know this is not true anymore. He has reached out and engaged--and really listened--on many more levels than has been talked about on this board.

But he is walking a very fine line. As another poster says, what is one person's confidence is another person's arrogance. It's all a matter of personal point of view--and that is inevitably influenced by past experiences.

To succeed he has to exude confidence to win over many former customers and dealers, potential new customers and dealers, and investors. On the other hand, he also has to show the right amount of humility when it's needed in dealing with the people who remember only the bad side of the old Serotta. He also somehow has to convince many to stop grinding, drop their axes for a moment, and give a fair listen to the message he is trying to get across.

So the ultimately important ingredients in this comeback for the company seem to be innovative, new, buzz-creating product AND exactly the right messaging to get people to just listen and give them a fair chance. It's that second part that's most difficult. They've always had great products. They just have been (let's be honest about this) piss-poor in getting the message across.

So far I think he's doing a good job of all of this. Never in my wildest dreams two or three years ago would I have imagined there would be a new CEO in place who really knows a lot about business, cycling, racing, AND who is engaging in an intelligent way on a Saturday morning or ANY morning with members of this board.

They're gonna make some mistakes in all this, but they are going to be minor compared to mistakes of the past.

BBD

[jpw]

It was Serotta Competition Bicycles, and has become Serotta Custom Bicycles. Spot the difference.

It begs the question. What is the atomic unit of the new Serotta?

[beeatnik]

Firefly
Moots
Gaulzetti
Crumpton
IF
Vanilla/Speedvagen
All the brands in the Pro Peloton except Fuji
Parlee
Baum
Pegoretti

All luxury items, all overpriced and if you think by pointing out that a Serotta goes for twice as much as a whatever, then you don't understand the discretionary goods market. Also anyone who worries about paying 30% more for a frame that only .5 % of the world's population could afford, well, shouldn't be managing money. Which is to say, all this is an abstraction. When I watch Top Gear (a show that only features vehicles owned by a few thousand human beings and presents them as commonplace items), I dont think, "wow that Zonda shouldn't retail for 5x more than the GTR." I think, "this show features some really expensive f o o k i n cars." Expensive bikes are toys. And people who spend their money on them are....um....ya. Good luck Serotta. There are a lot of rich dudes in America.

[ergott]

snipped

Nice post.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

[Serotta_Carbon]

If I had narrowed my choice to a Z1x or MeiVici SE how would you attempt to persuade me to the Serotta? The Z1x has five tube options, so it appears there is some ability to tune the ride characteristics. Reading the marketing info, I can't distinguish between the two.

http://www.parleecycles.com/z1-overview/
http://serotta.com/bicycles/meivici-se/

I know tone is difficult to convey online and I want to make sure you understand this is a sincere question, and I'm not trying to take a dig at Serotta. I genuinely want you to succeed.

Fair question and one which I've addressed many times internally but the info never seems to have made it to the masses....

During the development process of the Meivici we did a tremendous amount of mechanical testing of our existing products to use as a benchmark to measure it against. Most notably was the Ottrott cause it was the flagship model at the time and is also tunable by using composite tubes of varying stiffness properties. (As well as what we can do with the Ti parts...)

As we worked towards the goal of meeting and then exceeding the stiffness properties of the Ottrott we noticed that the increases weren't quite as linear as we expected and there was a point of diminishing return in total frame stiffness as we increased the stiffness of the descrete components. Tubes, stays, etc.

This got us looking at the lugs as descrete components as well and we designed a series of tests to quantify their properties. We began by benchmarking the titanium weldments used in the Ottrott and verified what we already knew...metal is pretty darn good stuff! We then did the same with the composite lugs and found they were close in stiffness but not quite the same. So, we then went to work on making composite lugs that were as stiff or stiffer than the titanium weldments. Over the course of this excercise we experimented with various lay-ups and materials selections including tweaky high modulus fibers but ultimately found wall thickness and the size of the fillets had a greater contribution to the stiffness of the lug. After several iterations we were making composite lugs that exceeded the stiffness of the titanium lugs thus acheiving our goal.

Does this make it better than the other frames that make similar claims of tunability by changing tube stiffness? That's difficult to say but I would go so far as to say we're getting more bang for our buck out of the tubes. This we can measure...

I'm finding it kind of fun to share this information with you shortly after reading Tom Officer's review of his Meivici and I can just picture him scratching his head and wondering how a frame that looks so normal could perform as it does in terms of stiffness and putting the power to the ground. Looks can be deceiving and it's all the time and expense we put into the front end of the project that makes the Meivici work the way it does.

A sincere answer for a sincere question from LegendRider. This is a major difference between the two frames you mentioned and one which we feel adds value to the product in terms of performance and durability.

1697858133

1697858134

1697858135

[Climb01742]

Serotta Mike, I'm sure I speak for many here when I say, thank you for sharing your knowledge. Your hands on insights are invaluable. I hope you'll have many more chances going forward to get the 'inside' story out. Great stuff.

[pbarry]

Aw, heck, now I want one--a Meivici. Enough honest tech talk and you can hook a segment of your potential customers. Mike, your post is way better than any ad copy. :hello:

Now, how about a financing program..

[rnhood]

Yes, good information and pictures. It starts painting a different company picture than what we deduce from reading the internet chat rooms.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that should be in a blog of its own on the Serotta web site.

BBD

[572cv]

Aw, heck, now I want one--a Meivici. Enough honest tech talk and you can hook a segment of your potential customers. Mike, your post is way better than any ad copy. :hello:

Now, how about a financing program..

I'm totally impressed with my old meivici. Now I have a little better sense as to why that is. More publicity of this sort in more channels isn't a bad idea.

[LegendRider]

Serotta Mike -

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response to my question - I really appreciate it.

(Forumites, check classifieds for Parlee Z1x!)

[Peter B]

. . . that should be in a blog of its own on the Serotta web site.

BBD

Absolutely agree. Get the message out!

[Bruce K]

Explains why my Meivici is the best riding Serotta I own and will never part with.

Thanks for the info.

BK

[Elefantino]

WTT: 62x59 MeiVici for 2002 Kia Sedona (only 146K miles) with Serotta downtube sticker on the windshield. And a Thule four-bike rack.

Lines are open.

[jpw]

. . . that should be in a blog of its own on the Serotta web site.

BBD

+1.

Yes, there should be a tech blog. The tech of the product is what Serotta should have been 'selling' (marketing) for years now.

Consumer: "why am I paying this price?"
Serotta: "because of this, this, this, and this tech"
Consumer:"OK, now I get it. I'll take half a dozen"

This is the age of information, the network society. Got to get it out there. Companies need to turn themselves inside out. Now more than ever before the consumer of the product IS the company, and the silo/ bunker approach will not cut it.

[jr59]

+1.

Yes, there should be a tech blog. The tech of the product is what Serotta should have been 'selling' (marketing) for years now.

Consumer: "why am I paying this price?"
Serotta: "because of this, this, this, and this tech"
Consumer:"OK, now I get it. I'll take half a dozen"

This is the age of information, the network society. Got to get it out there. Companies need to turn themselves inside out. Now more than ever before the consumer of the product IS the company, and the silo/ bunker approach will not cut it.

This^^^

The market place, if Serotta is to surive, needs more of this. It at least gives some reasoning of the cost difference! not just they are better!

More stuff like this out in the real world. The masses of bike buying public, will at least help sell more bikes/frames!

Glad to see it!

[jpw]

Explains why my Meivici is the best riding Serotta I own and will never part with.

Thanks for the info.

BK

would you care to elaborate on this? I'm all ears.

[shovelhd]

This^^^

The market place, if Serotta is to surive, needs more of this. It at least gives some reasoning of the cost difference! not just they are better!

More stuff like this out in the real world. The masses of bike buying public, will at least help sell more bikes/frames!

Glad to see it!

I think there's a fine line between differentiating your product and disclosing proprietary methods and materials.

[Serotta_Carbon]

I think there's a fine line between differentiating your product and disclosing proprietary methods and materials.

This is quite true and thank you for pointing it out to the other readers!

Although I try to be as informative as possible in my posts there have and will be times when I need to draw the line and pull the "need to know" card.

This is a competitive business and information and technology can be time consuming and expensive to aquire but can be given away at the click of a mouse.

As you said it's a fine line we walk and we can't share every detail.

Thanks for understanding!

[rustylion]

Thanks, Mike, for some great posts but for also disclaiming why we might feel the need to draw a line in the communication sand. We may have been too reclusive in the past but can't go overboard to compensate.

Together - all of us here at Serotta and those interested in the community - will find a healthy balance between open book and need to know.

Thanks all for your interest.

This is quite true and thank you for pointing it out to the other readers!

Although I try to be as informative as possible in my posts there have and will be times when I need to draw the line and pull the "need to know" card.

This is a competitive business and information and technology can be time consuming and expensive to aquire but can be given away at the click of a mouse.

As you said it's a fine line we walk and we can't share every detail.

Thanks for understanding!

[FlashUNC]

FWIW Bill and Mike, I've loved the videos you're posting to Facebook putting the frames and forks through their paces.

Watching that Pronto flex and the fork machine do its magic was, well, frightening. But its also great to see the rigor y'all go through before pushing something out the door.

[ergott]

That is an excellent share. Companies like Specialized have done some sharing of the testing involved in their R&D without giving much away. You know what you can share and what you can't.

I agree that showing some of that on the website shows what Serotta can do.

[Bruce K]

I have compared my Serottas several times over the years but I will give it one more go

I have owned a 1999/2000 Concours, and still
own a custom 2005 Concours CX, a 2003 Ottrott, and a 2007 Meivici.

The Concours was my first "real" road bike. It rode well and was comfortable. I did many centuries and a bunch of long charity rides and I loved it.

As my cycling improved and weight dropped, my wife bought me the Ottrott frame as a 50th birthday present. It is my Jaguar, my touring car. It is smooth, comfortable, fairly efficient. It handles really well and has seen descending speeds in excess of 50mph without a wobble or a whimper (from me).

The Meivici is my Ferrari. It is noticeably quicker to respond to inputs both from pedals and steering. It too is very stable in high speed descents but is a little twitchier, but not in a bad way. It's just quicker in all aspects. For some reason the Meivici climbs a little better, goes a little faster, etc.

I have talked with guys who were involved in the design and build at the factory and we've talked about the 2 bikes in general and mine in particular as I specified tubing and fork stiffness, so I understand the differences.

Additionally, the Meivici carries the original logo of the Davis Phinney Foundation on the seat tube, my name on the top tube, and Ben 's signature on one chainstay

At some point I might let go of the Ottrott if I thin the herd, but the Zmeivici will be kept and ridden until it can't go anymore

BK

[shovelhd]

That's one hell of a collection.

[Bruce K]

The Concours now belongs to 93Legendti

The cross bike is now predominantly a commuter/winter bike

But they all came in my pre-school teacher life when I owned a construction company

BK

[BumbleBeeDave]

The Concours now belongs to 93Legendti

The cross bike is now predominantly a commuter/winter bike

But they all came in my pre-school teacher life when I owned a construction company

BK

Bruce is still having a good time even as an "old fogey" school teacher. Through my exclusive connections I was able to obtain this surreptitiously shot image from one of his more subdued (or is that subdude?) class presentations . . .

BBD

[pdmtong]

The Concours now belongs to 93Legendti

The cross bike is now predominantly a commuter/winter bike

But they all came in my pre-school teacher life when I owned a construction company

BK

you were a pre-school teacher who owned a construction company as well? interesting duality

[SPOKE]

I'm really happy to see the new attitude blooming at Serotta!!!!
I love seeing more of the technical details making their way to us (potential customers)!
I've been a huge fan of the brand since about 1989 but had to settle for working on the Serottas that my pal Pete had (yes....our very own forum member formerly known as Serotta Pete) until about 1999 when I bought my Legend.
During my search for this bike I looked at Moots and Seven too. I felt that all three, Serotta, Moots, & Seven, could build me a great bike that had great ride qualities and fit. The big difference for me was the shaped tubes that Serotta used. The tapered stays as well as the Colorado Concept tubes in the main triangle just looked more like a fine classic steel bike. The others were nicely built but didn't use the tapered tubes. This detail was the reason I bought the Legend.
The interesting thing that I found during the search/education process none of the dealers were able to share with me why one bike was better than the other in any specific detail other than one had generally nicer looking welds than the other. I found this very disappointing.
I suspect the new attitude at Serotta will finally address this situation. More contrast to the competitive product on the market will help a bunch. I don't think this needs to be a battle on the forums but the dealers need this type of training /knowledge in order to better sell the product in this competitive environment.

[jpw]

I'm really happy to see the new attitude blooming at Serotta!!!!
I love seeing more of the technical details making their way to us (potential customers)!
I've been a huge fan of the brand since about 1989 but had to settle for working on the Serottas that my pal Pete had (yes....our very own forum member formerly known as Serotta Pete) until about 1999 when I bought my Legend.
During my search for this bike I looked at Moots and Seven too. I felt that all three, Serotta, Moots, & Seven, could build me a great bike that had great ride qualities and fit. The big difference for me was the shaped tubes that Serotta used. The tapered stays as well as the Colorado Concept tubes in the main triangle just looked more like a fine classic steel bike. The others were nicely built but didn't use the tapered tubes. This detail was the reason I bought the Legend.
The interesting thing that I found during the search/education process none of the dealers were able to share with me why one bike was better than the other in any specific detail other than one had generally nicer looking welds than the other. I found this very disappointing.
I suspect the new attitude at Serotta will finally address this situation. More contrast to the competitive product on the market will help a bunch. I don't think this needs to be a battle on the forums but the dealers need this type of training /knowledge in order to better sell the product in this competitive environment.

In the Olympic games bicycle aesthetics road race Serotta took gold, Moots bronze in a mass photo finish, and Seven? DNF. A harsh critique I know, but some people are born with an eye for artistic detail and some are not.

[54ny77]

exemplary.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152139225708475&set=a.485665448474.288576.56628518474&type=3&theater

"Christmas came a little early for NYC firefighter and triathlete Matt Long this year...

You may recall the picture and brief story we posted several weeks ago, after Hurricane Sandy flooded his home and then blew flames over what remained, torching or soaking everything in his house and garage, including his beloved Serotta... All coming only a few years after an infamously horrible accident with a bus left Matt with a prognosis for survival of less than 1%.

Signature collaborated with Serotta to help get Matt riding again. The result? Ben Serotta himself drove down to our NYC studio this past Saturday to present Matt with a custom-finished Meivici - coincidentally, seven years to the day after the accident that changed Matt's life. The bike features decals commemorating Matt's I WILL FOUNDATION, which he established in the wake of his accident and experiences to inspire the traumatically injured and ill to keep striving and pushing themselves.

A full story will be written in a few weeks... In the meanwhile, Signature wishes happy holidays and safe travels to all."