Speedvagen content

[T.J.]

The guys are changing things up a little over at the Vaniila Worshop. Makes good sense to me . Just passing this along in case you dont follow the blog. Thought you guys might be stoked to see lead times down so much. The following was cut and copied from their site


The newest development for the 2013 cross run isn’t on the bike, it’s when we’re building the bikes. Up until this point, we’ve built our Road Racing and Cross Racing Machines in groups of 30. This is a small number in the world of large scale manufacturing, but in our shop, 30 bikes, with the level of detail that each frame gets, is a massive undertaking. Because we love trying new things that help us improve our process, we are going to test a new scheduling model for this batch of cross bikes and our hunch is that we’re going to dig it and that the new method will extend into Road as well. Here’s how we see it going down:

We will have three deadlines for deposit: April 1st, May 1st and June 1st.
Frames will be built on a rolling schedule, so the earlier your order is in, the sooner you get your bike (assuming we have all of your details confirmed)
April orders will be shipped in June/July, May orders in July/August, and June orders will ship in August/September. (Approx 8-10 week turnaround) As of today, we have one slot open for the April build window and a small handful available for May and June.
I asked Sacha to go a little deeper into the Why? Here’s what he had to say:

“There are a lot or reasons that building smaller batches makes sense, chief among those is a quicker turnaround time for racers. When we build a full run of 30 bikes, we basically need to start the process 6 months ahead of time, which isn’t a big deal, except that in spring, not a lot of people are thinking about what cross bike they want to be racing come September. And something just doesn’t feel right about cutting off orders for the following year’s Road Racing Machines in August. I want for someone to get excited about a Speedvagen in December when they’re thinking about their road season, and call us up and for us to build a bike for them. Period.”The bikes continue their evolution and get better (sometimes subtly, sometimes by leaps and bounds) each year. Things to know about this batch of mud eating, gravel spitting, barrier destroyers are:

We will be offering a carbon fiber seat tube upgrade this season
The 2013 color palette includes Milky White, Matte Army and Fluorescent Yellow. And Surprise Me! but we can’t say more.
Popular upgrades including the Speedvagen Integrated cross stem, carbon seat post head and Di2 integration will return.
We continue spec the best components available from ENVE Composites, Paul Components, Fizik saddles and DT Swiss among others.

[reggiebaseball]

who is building the bikes now, is it still DeSalvo?

[pdmtong]

In line with his focus on process improvements. That purple SM with the gold drops was pretty sweet. But, what is happening with core Vanilla?

[MattTuck]

What is the Speedvagen brand trying to be? I always get the feeling it is like a more elite version of IF or Seven. I know that ever builder is trying to find his/her own niche and figure out what their brand means; to me, the speedvagen brand just comes across as being somewhat contrived and only possible because it's the cool kids that are are doing it.


Before you flame me, I still believe that the bikes are out of this world bitchin' and the build quality/attention to detail is among the best in the biz. I'm just trying to get my head around the brand. Some of the paint schemes are amazing as well.

[akelman]

I really like my 'Vagen. As you say, it's an excellent, steel bike: light, stiff, goes where I point it. It also fits me unusually well (though not as well as it did before I had my surgery -- sigh). And again as you say, I love the paint, including the minor flaws here and there.

One thing you're missing, though, is that the Vanilla Workshop's customer service is genuinely fantastic. Sacha answers the phone as often as not when I call, and he's always ready to help out with whatever nonsense I have in mind. He's also terrific, in my experience, when it comes to supporting the used market for his brand.

Finally, although I know that Vanillas and 'Vagens are indeed hyped, nobody around here (with here being NorCal) seems to have any clue that the kewl kidz approve of the brand. In fact, people around here have no clue what my bike is, as it's not a Specialized/Trek/Giant or even an IF/Seven/Serotta.

[akelman]

As for what Sacha is trying to accomplish, my sense from having read some stuff is that he wants to run a business that's sustainable over the longterm, wants to build race bikes for people who will ride them fast (both in and out of races), and wants to build the occasional boutique (still very sensible, though) creation for a very select group of customers. And from what I can tell, he's totally making his business model work, which, in this economy, is pretty amazing.

[akelman]

Sorry, I just realized that I should add one more thing: all of the above is atmo. I'm not friends with Sacha; I've only spoken to him on the phone a few times. I'm not an insider when it comes to his brand; I've only owned a few of his bikes. And I'm certainly not in any position to speak for him; I'm just some guy on the internet.

[T.J.]

What is the Speedvagen brand trying to be?



The following is all my opinion so take it for what it's worth . When it comes to custom hand made bikes it's the experience you are buying as much as a bike. I would wager that most of the builders out there can build you a bike that will perform exactly how you want . The whole experience with Vanilla was stellar for me. I asked ALOT of stupid questions during the process and Sacha never treated them as such. The guys are now friends and I am a fan for life. Take MR Pres on here, he has had more IFs than I can count and I would wager to say its the relationship with those guys that keeps him on that brand more than the bikes themselves, I totally understand that.

[MattTuck]

As for what Sacha is trying to accomplish, my sense from having read some stuff is that he wants to run a business that's sustainable over the longterm, wants to build race bikes for people who will ride them fast (both in and out of races), and wants to build the occasional boutique (still very sensible, but still boutique) creation for a very select group of customers. And from what I can tell, he's totally making his business model work, which, in this economy, is pretty amazing.

Ari,

Yep, this makes total sense. Wasn't being critical of Sacha, the bikes or his dedication. I know I had a talk with Dave Kirk about he economics of being a frame builder. Despite the prices on frames, these guys are not lighting their torches with $100 bills... there are a lot of costs, especially if you start employing more than just yourself. Having a sustainable business has got to be a priority if the industry is going to support itself.

That said, the feeling I got from Speedvagen comes out of Sacha's waitlist for his custom Vanilla frames... (now, I think there's a waitlist to get on the waitlist) If I were on the Vanilla waitlist and I knew he was churning out 30 bikes a year that were ordered after mine, and will be delivered WAY before mine, it would irk me a bit. That's what I meant about the cool kids comment -- that he can do it because the bikes are in such demand. I also get the vibe, because of the waitlist, that getting a speedvagen is almost a privilege... like he's doing the rider a favor by building these bikes. again, it's just my perception, warped as it may be.

I still think the bikes are cool, and from a business strategy and brand architecture standpoint, it is fascinating. I probably think about this stuff too much!

[akelman]

If I were on the Vanilla waitlist and I knew he was churning out 30 bikes a year that were ordered after mine, and will be delivered WAY before mine, it would irk me a bit. That's what I meant about the cool kids comment -- that he can do it because the bikes are in such demand. I also get the vibe, because of the waitlist, that getting a speedvagen is almost a privilege... like he's doing the rider a favor by building these bikes. again, it's just my perception, warped as it may be.

I think people on the waitlist know the score. And my own experience indicates that whatever your perception may be -- and again, I agree that these bikes are hyped -- Sacha in no way makes his customers feel like buying from him is a privilege. As I said above, the customer service at the Vanilla Workshop is as good as any I've ever experienced. So yes, the brand has taken on a certain aura, but that aura doesn't emanate from the builder or his business.

I guess another way of putting what I just said is that there are very, very few dissatisfied Vanilla/'Vagen customers out there (yes, people sell there bikes, but that's different). Much as is the case with Dave Kirk or Kelly Bedford, you almost never hear a bad word from the people who have actual experience with the builder and the brand.

[I Want Sachs?]

Market place ecomonics. If you market it right, it will sell. The actual product needs to be good enough to hold water. It is certainly viewed as "more desirable" than something like Della Santa among the kewl kids, even though Della Santa probably has saddled more happy and comfy riders in his lifetime than Sasha. ATMO

[akelman]

I've had one of Roland's frames as well: great builder, great guy, great bikes.

[MattTuck]

The 2013 color palette includes Milky White, Matte Army and Fluorescent Yellow. And Surprise Me! but we can’t say more.[/I]


PS. I want to see that Milky White, can't wait until we have some pics. Not so excited about fluorescent yellow :no: Farnese Vini beat you to the punch on that ;)

[fuzzalow]

I too have owned a Della Santa and it is a superb bike.

I don't think that comparing Roland to Sacha is equitable to either builder as they are not in each other's space for the type of bikes they build.

Roland builds bikes steeped in as much race tradition and know-how from Mr. Della Santa as desired or usable to his clients - the client just has to say to Roland where to stop the needle pointer along that continuum.

Sacha is unmatched with his creativity and craft in mastering steel artisanship across multiple genres and constructions of the bicycle. Lugged or fillet, rando to racing. Whoa.

IMO the only other builder world-wide that has pushed the envelope forwards to the same degree of ingenuity and creativity as Sacha has would be Dario.

[Joachim]

While I would definitely consider a Speedvagen (again) in the future and my email contact with Sacha has been nothing short of stellar. However, when I called to speak about the finer details and ready to send my cash over, I got some guy that sounded like he smoked too much of nature's relaxation grass and couldn't give me a decent answer on my questions. That totally turned me off on throwing down 4k+ on a Vagen (it would've been a custom). Maybe I was the odd one out. But I will end with what I started....I would definitely consider one again. :)

[Dave B]

The following is all my opinion so take it for what it's worth . When it comes to custom hand made bikes it's the experience you are buying as much as a bike. I would wager that most of the builders out there can build you a bike that will perform exactly how you want . The whole experience with Vanilla was stellar for me. I asked ALOT of stupid questions during the process and Sacha never treated them as such. The guys are now friends and I am a fan for life. Take MR Pres on here, he has had more IFs than I can count and I would wager to say its the relationship with those guys that keeps him on that brand more than the bikes themselves, I totally understand that.

Absolutely it matters the relationship. When IF was in Boston before Gary joined I became pals with Joe Ingram. Emailed him so often we began talking about family, life, stuff unrelated to bikes. Bracken had promised me a mtb on a firm due date and failed to deliver. I was beyond pissed and Joe laid into me and set me straight. We were good enough pals that he could do that to a "customer."

The relationship grew then into a joke when I began racing cross I signed in a race as part of the JIFC racing team. The Joe Ingram Fan Club. We got a giggle out of that.

I became pals with more folks, emailed them ideas and they were polite to answer them. When they would prep for NAHBS I would order pizzas to the shop from here in Indy, cookies from a cool cookie place Tyler told me about, whe I married my wife we had shot glasses made with our names and the date. I sent everyone at IF one.

Gary made my wife a one of a kind IF branded Baileyworks purse.

I spent thousands on bikes as well as tons of bottles and other gear. I probably convinced about 12 different folks to buy bikes from them. Joe and Gary asked me to be on their Grassroots team not because of my ability, but for how much I promoted the brand. Whe I would sell stuff here I would include loads of stickers, bottles, hats, etc from IF for free. That got back to the folks at IF.

I am grassroots for life according to Gary as long as I don't violate the a$$ho,e policy.

When loads of folks left it was weird for me as I felt I had to choose pals or company. I was never given that ultimatum as Tyler is perfectly happy doing what he is doing...and quite well I must say.

So when I began my new cross bike I hadn't worked much with IF on a new bike in awhile (gave up bike for a bit) and was unsure how I would be received.

I worked with Toni (Gary's wife) and Jesse and have had a blast. I haven't put a fraction of the effort I did before into IF yet they have treated me like I was part of the family. Toni is awesome and we talk about our kids, riding, and ideas on the GR team. Jesse has me talking and vetting people in the Midwest near me. The factory is turning out great stuff and Gary has had his vision of IF guide the success. He and the crew have done an amazing job of seeing IF thrive. I am very grateful for their hard work.

When IF headed out to this years show in Denver, Chris Rowe stopped and crashed for the night. We had never met, but had a blast with a few beers, great stories, and so on. Yet another relationship built on good characters.


What TJ mentioned about finding a builder and all of the stuff you read about **** I write or what he writes about SV is why we are so passionate about the bikes and folks. IF bikes are great, but I still think it is because of the folks behind the scenes,

People make our lives better. Friendships make our lies better. Bikes make our lives better. When you can combine those three...you will find something special.

Sorry TJ for high jacking the thread, but I know how strongly you feel about the guys out west and that passion resonates with me.

Cheers

Dave

[rphetteplace]

While I would definitely consider a Speedvagen (again) in the future and my email contact with Sacha has been nothing short of stellar. However, when I called to speak about the finer details and ready to send my cash over, I got some guy that sounded like he smoked too much of nature's relaxation grass and couldn't give me a decent answer on my questions. That totally turned me off on throwing down 4k+ on a Vagen (it would've been a custom). Maybe I was the odd one out. But I will end with what I started....I would definitely consider one again. :)

Maybe Sacha was on vacation or had a sick kid and the guy answering the phone is the high school kid that sweeps the floors......just saying.

[Joachim]

Maybe Sacha was on vacation or had a sick kid and the guy answering the phone is the high school kid that sweeps the floors......just saying.

Yes, that could have been the case (he wasn't, since I checked with someone that knows the workshop). My point is that even with that experience I would still consider one since Sacha's reputation is stellar, but they should keep that guy off the phones.

[Pete Mckeon]

:banana: Folks I Know who have them like them and frames
are lusty.:)
What is the Speedvagen brand trying to be? I always get the feeling it is like a more elite version of IF or Seven. I know that ever builder is trying to find his/her own niche and figure out what their brand means; to me, the speedvagen brand just comes across as being somewhat contrived and only possible because it's the cool kids that are are doing it.


Before you flame me, I still believe that the bikes are out of this world bitchin' and the build quality/attention to detail is among the best in the biz. I'm just trying to get my head around the brand. Some of the paint schemes are amazing as well.

[Peter P.]

I think Sacha White has a brilliant concept in the Speedvagen brand.

He's created an image, it results in demand, and there's no denying there's a lot of value built into the frames. I'm often jealous of those that own one.

I consider it VERY generous of him to offer his batch concept.

While I can understand MattTuck's reservations about Speedvagens "jumping the queue" vs. a Vanilla custom, I sorta view it as the Speedvagens create the cash flow to keep the business flourishing and perhaps because of that, take precedence.

[pdmtong]

If you were already in the vanilla queue, and considering a "race bike" it makes sense to use you spot for lugged or for fillet. and because you want sacha on the torch. those are great reasons. but, if you are just wanting a hand made go-fast bike, I think it makes more sense to go SV, and use your precious spot for something where the whole of sacha's craft, innovation and creativity can come to the fore. I think of SV as a nice complement to the more intricate creations (lights, racks, etc.) coming out of vanilla, and a way to address the wants of a myriad of constituents who appreciate his approach.

I would never disrespect the great work of the many builders at the top tier by saying everything Sacha does is the very top of the top. But, as FUZZALOW so aptly states, the accolades come his way because Sacha is unmatched with his creativity and craft in mastering steel artisanship across multiple genres and constructions of the bicycle. Lugged or fillet, rando to racing. Whoa..

That artisanship is evident in spades in my lugged road. It's the whole of the craft that I feel makes it special

[fuzzalow]

Maybe Sacha was on vacation or had a sick kid and the guy answering the phone is the high school kid that sweeps the floors......just saying.

My point is that even with that experience I would still consider one since Sacha's reputation is stellar, but they should keep that guy off the phones.

Gentlemen you are both entitled to your opinion but IMO sometimes you just gotta go with the flow. When I phone a place like Vanilla I know before making the call that it is not Corporate, no phone droids, no calls may be monitored to ensure high quality, no press 1-2-3 for blah blah blah. So I temper my reaction & expectations, speak slowly and interact with whom I am speaking with at whatever level keeps the conversation moving.

Sometimes not everything about the experience is in service of "What you want, When you want it and How you want it". Perhaps the milieu into which you speak is driven by craft and not by money. Your world is not everyone else's world too. Have the sophistication to interact with someone in theirs.

use your precious spot for something where the whole of sacha's craft, innovation and creativity can come to the fore. I think of SV as a nice complement to the more intricate creations (lights, racks, etc.) coming out of vanilla, and a way to address the wants of a myriad of constituents who appreciate his approach.

Very true and a vexing choice to make for a Vanilla when there is now the option for SV. I conveyed this to Sacha - my desire for a rando bike was driven purely by the possession of an object d'art that whould be built and wind up mounted to my wall rather than ridden on the road. So I almost reluctantly went road.

[rugbysecondrow]

If you were already in the vanilla queue, and considering a "race bike" it makes sense to use you spot for lugged or for fillet. and because you want sacha on the torch. those are great reasons. but, if you are just wanting a hand made go-fast bike, I think it makes more sense to go SV, and use your precious spot for something where the whole of sacha's craft, innovation and creativity can come to the fore. I think of SV as a nice complement to the more intricate creations (lights, racks, etc.) coming out of vanilla, and a way to address the wants of a myriad of constituents who appreciate his approach.

I would never disrespect the great work of the many builders at the top tier by saying everything Sacha does is the very top of the top. But, as FUZZALOW so aptly states, the accolades come his way because

That artisanship is evident in spades in my lugged road. It's the whole of the craft that I feel makes it special

Sacha is unmatched with his creativity and craft in mastering steel artisanship across multiple genres and constructions of the bicycle. Lugged or fillet, rando to racing. Whoa.





I say this as somebody who has consumed no kool-ade nor hater-ade, but I would say that "unmatched" is poetic, but not true. What I think he leads the niche industry in is marketing. He has created this image, this desire, this emotion in people. Good for him, he is in a business which require all of that for profit so I am happy for people who are successful. To equate or represent the impact of marketing as something unmatched in artisanship is a huge stretch though.

[Joachim]

So I temper my reaction & expectations, speak slowly and interact with whom I am speaking with at whatever level keeps the conversation moving.

Sometimes not everything about the experience is in service of "What you want, When you want it and How you want it". Perhaps the milieu into which you speak is driven by craft and not by money. Your world is not everyone else's world too. Have the sophistication to interact with someone in theirs.


I knew it was going to be taken to wrong way. We keep on talking here about the "experience this", "experience that", "that's why you go with a custom builder, its all part of the package" etc etc etc. While they might be driven by craft, the least that can be expected is a direct answer to a few standard questions (not even saying intelligent), just not a "uhhh, dude, yeah, I guess thats possible, but uhhh, I don't know, hmmm". Yes, point well taken. I will adjust my expectations. As I said before I was probably the odd one out and then again, Sacha doesn't need my 4-5k. At the end of the day it's still a business and I am not calling the Bulldog in Amsterdam to order 25 grams of Swazi Skunk. Sacha did a great job of answering my initial questions and he is an excellent example of how it should be done. He is also the only reason (and COAT) I will consider them again.

[fuzzalow]

I say this as somebody who has consumed no kool-ade nor hater-ade, but I would say that "unmatched" is poetic, but not true. What I think he leads the niche industry in is marketing. He has created this image, this desire, this emotion in people. Good for him, he is in a business which require all of that for profit so I am happy for people who are successful. To equate or represent the impact of marketing as something unmatched in artisanship is a huge stretch though.

What can I say, everybody has a favorite.

If by marketing by Vanilla, you meant guerrilla marketing by the apostolic, then perhaps yes. If meaning ad dollars, social media, etc. then certainly not. Vanilla has not attended NAHBS for the last several years. Image, desire and emotion is important. Sacha has the craft to create and foster those attributes. You levy marketing here as a term of derision. I disagree.

Use of "unmatched" as poetic? Sure, why not? Beats "see cat, see cat run".

[FlashUNC]

I've had one of Roland's frames as well: great builder, great guy, great bikes.

I'll third that.

Process with him has been a joy so far. I need to usually block off a half hour or so when I call, for all the stories I get, and they're all fantastic. And I know I'll be getting an awesome bike later this year.

Why Roland's not in heavier demand is beyond me.

[reggiebaseball]

um,
as far as I know
Sacha White doesn't build these bikes, I dont believe he ever has.

He designs them, his "workshop" hosts them during their construction,
and rotating "guest" builders actually make them.

To wit, my initial question,

who is building Speedvagens in 2013?,
because I don't think it is DeSalvo any more.


Speedvagen is the next evolution of the custom builder - rather than the individual artisan (Kirk, Vanilla), it is the era of the branded aesthetic - like Firefly, Ritte and others.

[David Kirk]

um,
as far as I know
Sacha White doesn't build these bikes, I dont believe he ever has.

He designs them, his "workshop" hosts them during their construction,
and rotating "guest" builders actually make them.

To wit, my initial question,

who is building Speedvagens in 2013?,
because I don't think it is DeSalvo any more.


Speedvagen is the next evolution of the custom builder - rather than the individual artisan (Kirk, Vanilla), it is the era of the branded aesthetic - like Firefly, Ritte and others.

I don't know if the bolded part is really an accurate way to portray how it works - or at least how I think it works. I have no insider info nor any personal experience with the SV but as I recall Sacha and his crew do all the operations on the SV aside from the welding and that they bring in a specialist to handle an operation (tig welding) they have less experience with. IMO welding is just one of a hundred tasks involved in building a frame and accounts for a small proportion of the time required to do the entire build. Welding isn't building, but just one step in building. I don't know the real numbers but I feel safe in saying that it might take very roughly 10 hours to build the frame from start to finish and far less than 1 hour to do all the welding.........while the Vanilla workshop guys do the other 9 hours of work.

I'm sure Sacha can jump in and tell me if I have it wrong.

Dave

[soulspinner]

I knew it was going to be taken to wrong way. We keep on talking here about the "experience this", "experience that", "that's why you go with a custom builder, its all part of the package" etc etc etc. While they might be driven by craft, the least that can be expected is a direct answer to a few standard questions (not even saying intelligent), just not a "uhhh, dude, yeah, I guess thats possible, but uhhh, I don't know, hmmm". Yes, point well taken. I will adjust my expectations. As I said before I was probably the odd one out and then again, Sacha doesn't need my 4-5k. At the end of the day it's still a business and I am not calling the Bulldog in Amsterdam to order 25 grams of Swazi Skunk. Sacha did a great job of answering my initial questions and he is an excellent example of how it should be done. He is also the only reason (and COAT) I will consider them again.

Ahhh, about the Swazi Skunk.........:rolleyes:

[reggiebaseball]

I don't know if the bolded part is really an accurate way to portray how it works - or at least how I think it works. I have no insider info nor any personal experience with the SV but as I recall Sacha and his crew do all the operations on the SV aside from the welding and that they bring in a specialist to handle an operation (tig welding) they have less experience with. IMO welding is just one of a hundred tasks involved in building a frame and accounts for a small proportion of the time required to do the entire build. Welding isn't building, but just one step in building. I don't know the real numbers but I feel safe in saying that it might take very roughly 10 hours to build the frame from start to finish and far less than 1 hour to do all the welding.........while the Vanilla workshop guys do the other 9 hours of work.

I'm sure Sacha can jump in and tell me if I have it wrong.

Dave

That makes perfect sense, I am sure that you are right and I am wrong.
I m still curious who is performing the TIG welding on the frames, whether it is still Mike DeSalvo, or someone else rotated in (unless it is improper to ask this)

[David Kirk]

That makes perfect sense, I am sure that you are right and I am wrong.
I m still curious who is performing the TIG welding on the frames, whether it is still Mike DeSalvo, or someone else rotated in (unless it is improper to ask this)

I see no reason why it would be improper to ask.......nothing wrong with asking.

dave

[PQJ]

To equate or represent the impact of marketing as something unmatched in artisanship is a huge stretch though.

A gander through vanillas offerings might disabuse you of that notion. Among bespoke effbuilders, vanilla appears to be unmatched in the variety and style of bikes offered. And as for the impact of marketing, and as but one data point, this particular bike aficionado learned of vanilla bikes from across the hall.

[christian]

My wife had a Vanilla, recently sold. It was a very nice bike - lug shorelines were clean, paint was very good, details were nice - painted fenders and pump, polished dropouts - the head badge was nice.

If I were to pick one nit, it would be that the rear brake arch was positioned quite high, necessitating modification of a 47-57mm caliper to fit. I think this was done in an attempt to make the rear fender line nice. The fork, on the other hand, had a pretty short span.

As far as "unmatched in craft" though, I don't agree. I think Vanilla may only, as Douglas Brooks geneously would have it, have peers, but the bikes I've seen by JP Weigle, Chris Kvale, Richard Sachs, David Kirk, Mike Zanconato, Dave Wages, Eric Estlund, are at least equivalent, both in construction and aesthetic gestalt.

I do think that Sacha had a very well-developed new aesthetic, combined with good building, which was pretty unique in 2003/4/5. A lot of current, newer custom steel frame makers still look like they're doing their own take on either 1970s De Rosas or on 2006 Vanillas. That speaks to Sacha's influence.

[fuzzalow]

As far as "unmatched in craft" though, I don't agree. I think Vanilla may only, as Douglas Brooks geneously would have it, have peers, but the bikes I've seen by JP Weigle, Chris Kvale, Richard Sachs, David Kirk, Mike Zanconato, Dave Wages, Eric Estlund, are at least equivalent, both in construction and aesthetic gestalt.

Most of the replies, not necessarily yours, have fixated on my use of "unmatched" as though is was a stated as a definitive repudiation of every other builder's work.

This fixation to one word is missing the point being made and also takes what I said out of context. I was stating the view that Sacha's work, in it's breadth and scope of different constructions and different types of bikes, was indeed unmatched by any builder. He has moved the definition of the aesthetic and fabrication vanguard forwards. More than attributed to any other modern day builder including the builders listed above. All are good, none forged ahead with a body of work like Vanilla.

My original quote:

Sacha is unmatched with his creativity and craft in mastering steel artisanship across multiple genres and constructions of the bicycle. Lugged or fillet, rando to racing. Whoa.

[Pete Mckeon]

for race bikes folks like Richard Sachs and Tom Kellogg have many more years of experience in building and fitting,

Folks like Dave Kirk easily match Sasha in built and beauty as does K Bedford and Ellis Cycles among many I oculd list and still miss some that should be on the list.
As to marketing of a product SASHA has none close to him. (Just my views
not based on any science. ). His presentation is like an Italian Ferrari or Ducati........to me LUST

Most of the replies, not necessarily yours, have fixated on my use of "unmatched" as though is was a stated as a definitive repudiation of every other builder's work.

This fixation to one word is missing the point being made and also takes what I said out of context. I was stating the view that Sacha's work, in it's breadth and scope of different constructions and different types of bikes, was indeed unmatched by any builder. He has moved the definition of the aesthetic and fabrication vanguard forwards. More than attributed to any other modern day builder including the builders listed above. All are good, none forged ahead with a body of work like Vanilla.

My original quote:

[T.J.]

saCha

[William]

saCha

Not to be confused with sriraCha (though both are hot).;)




William

[Pete Mckeon]

Sacha White Vanilla:crap: PETE:beer:

[pdmtong]

Folks like Dave Kirk easily match Sasha in built and beauty as does K Bedford and Ellis Cycles among many I oculd list and still miss some that should be on the list.

Pete, again you and others miss the point. We are not talking about singular comparisons, ie my lugged vanilla is "better" than your lugged kirk. That would be a ridiculous conversation to have.

we are talking about a single builder (sacha) who has demonstrated excellence across a breadth of styles and construction methods. That is where the accolades come from.

Other builders might be able to do that, but choose not to. Of those that have, who else evokes the same overall lust, from a tricycle, to a PBP rando, to road to cross to city to track?

As for marketing...the vanilla website is ancient, he doesn't come to NAHBS, the Forbes and WSJ articles are long past. He isnt doing any marketing, his customers do it for him. Note the parade of frames people post up and on the SV blog. Viral marketing...in today's world far more effective than a paragraph on the webpage from the mother ship.

[christian]

Of those that have, who else evokes the same overall lust, from a tricycle, to a PBP rando, to road to cross to city to track?
Obviously I'm a big fan of Vanilla, and have already said what a huge influence on other builders I think Sacha had.

For me, in 2013, when I look at the full oeuvre of present builders who build across the whole spectrum - track, road, cx, city, touring, mtb, and knife-sharpening - Eric Estlund at Winter stands alone.

[Pete Mckeon]

I was not dealing with a single comparison but was saying a frame designed to the specs and requirements of the rider.

If it works for Sacha that is good but it does not take the many other builders and place them as inferior,.

I never mentioned lugs verses tig or material types or models.

Each of the builders I mentioned can and do stand on their merits, They are different than SACHA not worse and "better" is determined by the buyer of the product and their needs.

Sacha does create a demand just as Porsche, Ferrari, Tiffany, etc do, That does not make them superior is all sectors they market in.

I am just saying decades of experience and working with teams is not trivial in creating a wonderful product. Not agreeing is not "missing a point" It is just a different perspective of things,:) Lets not fight over it, In fact the thread should end (yes this is my last post on it) I am not a moderator but just a cyclist who likes others and this forum..

Pete (red will be on me if we ever meet)


Pete, again you and others miss the point. We are not talking about singular comparisons, ie my lugged vanilla is "better" than your lugged kirk. That would be a ridiculous conversation to have.

we are talking about a single builder (sacha) who has demonstrated excellence across a breadth of styles and construction methods. That is where the accolades come from.

Other builders might be able to do that, but choose not to. Of those that have, who else evokes the same overall lust, from a tricycle, to a PBP rando, to road to cross to city to track?

As for marketing...the vanilla website is ancient, he doesn't come to NAHBS, the Forbes and WSJ articles are long past. He isnt doing any marketing, his customers do it for him. Note the parade of frames people post up and on the SV blog. Viral marketing...in today's world far more effective than a paragraph on the webpage from the mother ship.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

This SV looks pretty hot: http://www.flickr.com/photos/42587323@N08/8559134691/

But, then again, I am a sucker for purple bikes.

[reggiebaseball]

that bike has a painted headset.

the headset has little painted color coded stripes on it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/42587323@N08/8559278873/in/photostream/

It is something my girlfriend might say is hot, but you Uncle Jam?

Paint is only 1mm deep.

Speedvagens may be the goods, but these paint jobs begin to resemble the cupcakes my wife buys at the fancy cupcake store.
http://theberry.com/2012/04/04/fancy-and-fun-cupcakes-39-photos/

To each his own, but I am right.

edit: I reserve the right to order a SV in that color scheme for my girlfriend.

[fuzzalow]

This SV looks pretty hot:

Yes it does. Swaged head tube junction at the headset...the incremental bits add up.

[T.J.]

Paint is only 1mm deep.


True and I will still be racing mine when the paint is nicked, chipped and worn off. Great thing is there are tons of builders for the tons of different tastes.
I love my bike and in the end it doesn't matter if anyone else does or not.
I see bikes all over the internet that do nothing for me that other people drool over. Again, as long as the owner loves it all is good

[rugbysecondrow]

What can I say, everybody has a favorite.

If by marketing by Vanilla, you meant guerrilla marketing by the apostolic, then perhaps yes. If meaning ad dollars, social media, etc. then certainly not. Vanilla has not attended NAHBS for the last several years. Image, desire and emotion is important. Sacha has the craft to create and foster those attributes. You levy marketing here as a term of derision. I disagree.

Use of "unmatched" as poetic? Sure, why not? Beats "see cat, see cat run".

I haven't studied what they did to say what methods they employed, nor does it matter. They are very successful at marketing.

Marketing is not a negative term, in fact it is good to see folks getting work.

They build good bikes, some say great bikes...but that is not much different than many other shops. Innovative...they are just bikes, how much innovation is there really?

[pdmtong]

It is just a different perspective of things,:)

Pete (red will be on me if we ever meet)

'89 Haut Brion and I am on a plane tomorrow!