Updated or new steel?

[colod]

Greetings. I've been lurking about for a while here and perhaps not coincidentally, I'm coming to think I want to get back to a steel or perhaps ti frame. (my last steel ride was a late 80s Serotta. After the down tube cracked, I went to a titanium Dean, which I loved until it was stolen, and since have had fun with a series of carbon bikes. They have been fun, and the weight savings are amazing, but when you need to lose 20 pounds, having a 15 pound bike may not be necessary).

Anyway, I'm not looking to go crazy with a custom Speedvagen or anything, and I'm also not going full vintage either (my father has an early 70s Allegro if I want that). I'm thinking about finding a nice, steel frame to work up with modern componentry. Something like a De Rosa Corum looks ideal but too pricey for me at this point. If I go with an older frame, does anyone have advice? How old is too old in terms of fitting things like newer cranks or shifting systems, etc? How troublesome is working with old forks and quill stems these days? Other caveats?

Sorry for the wordy post, and Thanks for any thoughts you can share.

PS - if anyone has something they want to swap for a basically new (under 500 miles) Guru RL with SRAM Red, let me know!

[zennmotion]

If your starting points are steel, modern components, modern performance, tight budget and new-

Then I think you're looking for a Tig welded frame. They're less expensive than lugged models because there's less labor in the finish work, so bang for the buck- structurally not superior or inferior to lugged and fillet construction if you care more about riding it than admiring it while sipping your espresso. Modern steel is superior to older steel in every way, so unless nostalgia is driving your purchase, forget retro, you'll enjoy what's happened to steel in the past 15 years or so, and modern components look out of place on old standard skinny tubes. Off the top of my head, stand out builders in affordable Tig welded steel include Hampsten, DeSalvo, Rock Lobster, Indep Fab, Pacenti, Gaulzetti, Primus Mootry, Bilenky, Waterford/Gunnar. I'm sure others will add other favorites as possibilities. It took me a little time to grow to like Tig- as much as I love the aesthetics of a fine lugged frame, I love Tig for it's no-nonsense, smooth lines- the beauty is in the builder's design, and it presents no limitations in geometry and choice of tubing. I'd start by looking at builders who specialize in Tig construction, put your money into good handbuilt wheels and modest mid-line components, you'll have an amazing, affordable bike. If you want/need to save, be patient keep your eye out for a used Tig frame that fits, they can be surprisingly inexpensive if you find one you like.

[Louis]

Most bike frames depreciate so quickly, that as long as you know your size and don't have your heart set on buying a brand-new custom, it's easy enough to find a gently-used, but still quite recent in every way, model at a significant discount over new. All it takes is patience and time on the forum.

Good Luck :bike:

[Rada]

I have an '88 Appel frame with a carbon fork and modern components and it rides just as well if not better than any modern steel bike I have ridden. It weights just a bit over 17lbs, with some not so weight weenie wheels, which I can live with. Building up an older frame with modern components is usually pretty straight forward stuff.

[soulspinner]

if your starting points are steel, modern components, modern performance, tight budget and new-

then i think you're looking for a tig welded frame. They're less expensive than lugged models because there's less labor in the finish work, so bang for the buck- structurally not superior or inferior to lugged and fillet construction if you care more about riding it than admiring it while sipping your espresso. Modern steel is superior to older steel in every way, so unless nostalgia is driving your purchase, forget retro, you'll enjoy what's happened to steel in the past 15 years or so, and modern components look out of place on old standard skinny tubes. Off the top of my head, stand out builders in affordable tig welded steel include hampsten, desalvo, rock lobster, indep fab, pacenti, gaulzetti, primus mootry, bilenky, waterford/gunnar. I'm sure others will add other favorites as possibilities. It took me a little time to grow to like tig- as much as i love the aesthetics of a fine lugged frame, i love tig for it's no-nonsense, smooth lines- the beauty is in the builder's design, and it presents no limitations in geometry and choice of tubing. I'd start by looking at builders who specialize in tig construction, put your money into good handbuilt wheels and modest mid-line components, you'll have an amazing, affordable bike. If you want/need to save, be patient keep your eye out for a used tig frame that fits, they can be surprisingly inexpensive if you find one you like.

+1

[martl]

If I go with an older frame, does anyone have advice? How old is too old in terms of fitting things like newer cranks or shifting systems, etc? How troublesome is working with old forks and quill stems these days? Other caveats?

Somewhere in the early eighties, rear dropout spacing changed from 126mm to 130mm. Fitting a modern hub in a 126mm frame is no problem in my experience, but some folks are pickier than me, so to stay safe you can look starting from that aera. Frames of that vintage will also already support short reach brakes with allen key nuts - getting brake performance as we are used to getting from a modern bike is an issue with bikes older than that.

I am not aware of other major caveats with modern componentry on older frames.

Quill stems are still around in abundance, either as NOS parts or brand new (Nitto). They look nicer on classic steel tubed frames anyway, just check what ahead-style stems do to the nice lines of a new lugged Gios or Casati.
Same for classic headsets.

The rest of the gear should fit.

So its up to you - you can get probably a very nice "vintage" classic steel frame for a fraction of the cost of a newly made one, if you look aside the "big names".

[vav]

SUperProdigy 2003 Steel Tig welded outfitted with Red. Bunch of steel bikes here on the forum fron the 90s and 2000s with modern components on it. One of the things I'd consider is head tube diameter as good quality 1 inch threadless carbon forks are hard to find or are expensive.

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/?ui=2&ik=7222878b00&view=att&th=13d73ef85e340be9&attid=0.1&disp=inline&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P8ycmx2YR7Yd-8FnOozmxyf&sadet=1363870799066&sads=4iX8U2ygqdzWQxoYkVgEW9aIDGM&sadssc=1

[oldpotatoe]

SUperProdigy 2003 Steel Tig welded outfitted with Red. Bunch of steel bikes here on the forum fron the 90s and 2000s with modern components on it. One of the things I'd consider is head tube diameter as good quality 1 inch threadless carbon forks are hard to find or are expensive.

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/?ui=2&ik=7222878b00&view=att&th=13d73ef85e340be9&attid=0.1&disp=inline&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P8ycmx2YR7Yd-8FnOozmxyf&sadet=1363870799066&sads=4iX8U2ygqdzWQxoYkVgEW9aIDGM&sadssc=1

Ritchey, good quality, still made, not expensive, easy to find. Yes aluminum steerer but not a big deal, IMHO.

[yankees1]

Consider a Bedford as well.

[tmf]

I have an '87 Serotta NX that I still ride a fair amount. I decided to upgrade the components from C Record with retrofriction DT shifters to Record 8 speed. I thought about upgrading it to 10 speed with silver components, but I had two sets of 7sp wheels I wanted to keep using (my Record Pave rims still have many more miles in them!). I was using a 1" quill adapter (lets you use 1-1/8" threadless stems on a 1" threaded fork), but decided to go back to a quill stem. I found the 3T Evol stem which is a quill, but has a removable front plate so you can remove/swap the bars without taking the tape and levers off. The other quill stems with that feature had unfavorable reviews from what I found.

I could easily upgrade the components to 10 or 11 speed if I wanted to, but I'm enjoying it the way it is now. I think it's a great balance between a vintage bike that rides like a newer one. One thing I've found that helps the ride of older steel frames is to run 25 width tires if you don't already.

[oldpotatoe]

I have an '87 Serotta NX that I still ride a fair amount. I decided to upgrade the components from C Record with retrofriction DT shifters to Record 8 speed. I thought about upgrading it to 10 speed with silver components, but I had two sets of 7sp wheels I wanted to keep using (my Record Pave rims still have many more miles in them!). I was using a 1" quill adapter (lets you use 1-1/8" threadless stems on a 1" threaded fork), but decided to go back to a quill stem. I found the 3T Evol stem which is a quill, but has a removable front plate so you can remove/swap the bars without taking the tape and levers off. The other quill stems with that feature had unfavorable reviews from what I found.

I could easily upgrade the components to 10 or 11 speed if I wanted to, but I'm enjoying it the way it is now. I think it's a great balance between a vintage bike that rides like a newer one. One thing I've found that helps the ride of older steel frames is to run 25 width tires if you don't already.

What did ya do with the C-Record stuff? Shifters, RD, Deltas(?), crankset...I use C-Record on my Merckx and am always looking for these things

[tmf]

What did ya do with the C-Record stuff? Shifters, RD, Deltas(?), crankset...I use C-Record on my Merckx and am always looking for these things

I sold it all last summer. I still have the hubs with the Record Pave wheels, and the headset on the bike. My brakes were Cobalto. Some of my friends had Deltas at the time, and I decided to go with the blue jewels :)

I still think C-Record holds the crown as the most beautiful components of all time. I wish I still had my track bike with the Sheriff Stars...

[axel23]

+1

most bike frames depreciate so quickly, that as long as you know your size and don't have your heart set on buying a brand-new custom, it's easy enough to find a gently-used, but still quite recent in every way, model at a significant discount over new. All it takes is patience and time on the forum.

Good luck :bike:

[redir]

You can upgrade an old bike with modern components but it often times can cost as much or more then buying a budget bike with 105 or similiar. I think it's fun to work on bikes so I'd push for the upgrade. I have a lot of bikes and honestly the best riding bike I have is my '83 Guerciotti and that's compared to a nice GL, a newer Lemond, Cervelo, Moots and a bunch others. I won't put modern components on my Guerc because I like it classic and vintage but if I did it would ride like a dream and probably be reasonable light weight. There's just something about it that makes it perfect, maybe it's the geometry IDK. It's made of SLX fwiw.

[bfd]

SUperProdigy 2003 Steel Tig welded outfitted with Red. Bunch of steel bikes here on the forum fron the 90s and 2000s with modern components on it. One of the things I'd consider is head tube diameter as good quality 1 inch threadless carbon forks are hard to find or are expensive.



Yes, 1" threadless carbon forks use to be hard to find, until now! Get yourself a Columbus Minimal fork. It comes in 1" steerer tube size and works really well. I got one and find it as stiff as my old kestrel ems fork, light at about 325g (that's the weight quoted by a US distributor) and reasonably price ranging from about $220 (UK retailers) to the list of $350. Lots cheaper than the Serotta carbon fork which also comes in 1". Good Luck!:eek::butt::banana::cool:

[maverick_1]

@colod,

If you ever decided to go Italian, do check out Pelizzoli.
http://www.pelizzoliworld.com/

reasonable priced framesets, custom built for you.
Fillet brazed is his speciality.

De Rosa Corum is made from lightweight steel tubesets, I believe it's EOM16.5. It's pretty thin and dents easily (I had one Viner made from EOM16.5), something which you need to consider. Another option would be the De Rosa Primato.

Cheers

[rccardr]

For about $1200 you can build a 20 pound-ish bike with performance that's as competitive as you are. Late 80's steel lugged frame with Shimano 105/Ultegra/DA drivetrain, 9 or 10 speed STI's, decent wheelset and tires. Example of Columbus Tenax with compact 105 9 speed double, Cane Creek wheelset with ceramic bearings, Vittoria Open Corsa's:
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/87%20Schwinn%20Tempo%20black%209%20sp/87Tempoblack9sprightside.jpg

Knock $100 off that if you like DT shifters. Example of Columbus SL with Dura Ace 7700 9 speed double, Mavic/Shimano wheelset, Vittoria Pro III's:
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/85%20Schwinn%20Peloton/85Pelotonrightside.jpg

You can go upscale on the frame if you want, moving the total to $1700. Probably not much performance improvement, but it might make you feel sportier. Example of Columbus SLX with DA 7700 and STI's, 9 speed double, 7700 hubs with Campy Lambda rims:
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/89%20Green%20Merckx%20CE/93GreenMerckxCErightsidepartialbuild.jpg

I do it all the time and with some careful shopping can also use nice bits like aero Campy seatposts, Cinelli and 3TTT stems and bars, upscale saddles, etc.
Frames (or complete bikes with a good frame and older components that can be sold on eBay/here/BF to defray part of the total cost) aren't that hard to find.

[texbike]

Greetings. I've been lurking about for a while here and perhaps not coincidentally, I'm coming to think I want to get back to a steel or perhaps ti frame. (my last steel ride was a late 80s Serotta. After the down tube cracked, I went to a titanium Dean, which I loved until it was stolen, and since have had fun with a series of carbon bikes. They have been fun, and the weight savings are amazing, but when you need to lose 20 pounds, having a 15 pound bike may not be necessary).

Anyway, I'm not looking to go crazy with a custom Speedvagen or anything, and I'm also not going full vintage either (my father has an early 70s Allegro if I want that). I'm thinking about finding a nice, steel frame to work up with modern componentry. Something like a De Rosa Corum looks ideal but too pricey for me at this point. If I go with an older frame, does anyone have advice? How old is too old in terms of fitting things like newer cranks or shifting systems, etc? How troublesome is working with old forks and quill stems these days? Other caveats?

Sorry for the wordy post, and Thanks for any thoughts you can share.

PS - if anyone has something they want to swap for a basically new (under 500 miles) Guru RL with SRAM Red, let me know!

What a great time to be looking into steel bikes! It seems that there hasn't been a better time or a better selection. Not only do you have 20 years of high-end, performance-oriented steel bikes to choose from on the used market (that can easily adopt modern components), but you also have an incredible array of custom steel options to choose from, as well as some really cool, budget-oriented steel steeds.

Old(er) - Pinarello, Merckx, Serotta, DeRosa, Colnago, etc, etc, etc

Custom - Alliance, Strong, DeSalvo, PM, Yamaguchi, Kirk, etc, etc, etc

Budget - Soma Smoothie, Black Mountain Road, Surly Pacer, etc, etc, etc

What size bike do you ride? As others have pointed out, there is a wealth of lightly-used steel bikes floating around. Case in point is the Serotta CIII that Liberace currently has for sale. That's a fantastic bike for a great price.

Good luck with your search!

Texbike

[colod]

Thanks for all the excellent insights and advice. The fork and dropout spacing issues are just the sort of concerns I have and want to be sure I understand before I pick something up.

I generally ride a 54/medium these days, but have been on a larger bike before (I have a fairly typical Italian build - longer torso, shorter legs). So I am very, very tempted to try that Colorado III that's listed and put a short stem on it. Just not ready to jump yet.

I will keep lurking about and looking at the options. Thanks again.

[Ken Robb]

Colorado III (sometimes called C III) and CSi are wonderful bikes by Serotta.

Waterford bikes and their less-expensive Gunnar bikes are also excellent. I think a Gunnar may be the best value available in new steel bikes. Check their website for current pricing and upgraded paint and/or custom sizing. All of them built by the same crew from the same factory in Wisconsin.

I am also a fan of Rivendell bikes: custom, or stock frames like Rambouillet, Romulus, Legola, etc.

[redir]

FWIW it's not too difficult to DIY cold set the rear triangle to the proper width. I've done it on several bikes.

[retrofit]

Here is my 1980 Gios Super Record fitted with 2004-ish 10-speed Record/Chorus mix and low cost Fulcrum 5 wheels. I asked my LBS to cold set the rear to 130, they suggested 128 in case I wanted to revert to using a vintage gruppo, so I went with 128.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7140/7464585284_2ac0729a00_c.jpg

[dd74]

I don't get the entire "cold setting" thing. The steel flexes, doesn't it? So won't it flex back to a 126mm after a 130mm has been on it? I've put a wheel with a 9-spd cassette on my '85 Colnago, rode around on it for a while, then went back to an older 126mm wheel with a 6-spd cassette. There was no problem with the changing back and forth.

[Marz]

Here is my 1980 Gios Super Record fitted with 2004-ish 10-speed Record/Chorus mix and low cost Fulcrum 5 wheels. I asked my LBS to cold set the rear to 130, they suggested 128 in case I wanted to revert to using a vintage gruppo, so I went with 128.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7140/7464585284_2ac0729a00_c.jpg

I have to find one of these in my size, 53tt or 54tt with coins in the forks before I shuffle off. I have the matching track frame (need repaint). Bewdiful!

[Frankwurst]

I don't get the entire "cold setting" thing. The steel flexes, doesn't it? So won't it flex back to a 126mm after a 130mm has been on it? I've put a wheel with a 9-spd cassette on my '85 Colnago, rode around on it for a while, then went back to an older 126mm wheel with a 6-spd cassette. There was no problem with the changing back and forth.

Explained here: http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

[Louis]

I don't get the entire "cold setting" thing. The steel flexes, doesn't it? So won't it flex back to a 126mm after a 130mm has been on it?

Plastic vs Elastic deformation.

http://www.cyberphysics.co.uk/graphics/graphs/stress_strain2.gif

[choke]

I don't get the entire "cold setting" thing. The steel flexes, doesn't it? So won't it flex back to a 126mm after a 130mm has been on it? I've put a wheel with a 9-spd cassette on my '85 Colnago, rode around on it for a while, then went back to an older 126mm wheel with a 6-spd cassette. There was no problem with the changing back and forth.I think the main benefit (outside of easier wheel changes) is that it makes the dropout faces parallel. If the dropouts are chrome it's a lot harder for the quick release to get a good bite on them if they aren't parallel.

[thirdgenbird]

I love me some Campagnolo 10 on vintage steel: Cheap, reliable, sexy, fast (everything I am not)

[AgilisMerlin]

have at it:

http://velospace.org/marketplace :banana:

[rounder]

There are lots of ways you can go. Buy a new bike, go to Craig's list etc.

The most fun I ever did was to buy a frame off ebay. Never did any thing like that before. Bought a ciii frame that looked about the same shape as what I was used to riding. Then bought components off ebay also. For things I did not know what I was doing, I bought from the shop.
The bike turned out great and still love it. The shop found the missing parts and built the bike up. It was one of the most fun things I ever did.

Good luck. Hope it helps.

[Rudy]

What did ya do with the C-Record stuff? Shifters, RD, Deltas(?), crankset...I use C-Record on my Merckx and am always looking for these things

I have that group on a bike you could look at Oldpotato. And a second set of wheels with those Mavic Gel rims. I'm in Durango but visit the Front Range monthly to visit my aged father.

[colod]

The most fun I ever did was to buy a frame off ebay. Never did any thing like that before. Bought a ciii frame that looked about the same shape as what I was used to riding. Then bought components off ebay also. For things I did not know what I was doing, I bought from the shop.
The bike turned out great and still love it. The shop found the missing parts and built the bike up. It was one of the most fun things I ever did.
.

This, along with thirdgenbird's mix of Campy 10 and steel, is just what I'm envisioning. Can't wait to find the right frame to get started.

[SpokeValley]

Speaking of nice steel...(not mine, btw...yet)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261185569419?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649