Getting blown (around) on carbon wheels

[dd74]

Is it safe to assume the heavier a wide profile carbon wheel set is (50mm or more), the less the rider will be blown around by wind or passing traffic.

I've been looking at two wheel sets; the Carbonsports Meilenstein and the Campagnolo Bora Ultra 2s, and their have been numerous complaints about the Meilensteins being nearly too dangerous to ride in windy conditions simply because they're so light.

Anyway, just wondering if anyone has an opinion on this. Thanks.

[shovelhd]

I can't comment on the two you are comparing, only in generalities. So much depends on the rim profile and your position on the bike. Rim depth and wheel weight are only a part of the equation. Rim shape, wheel build, spoke count, spoke shape, and recently, rim width and tire width play a part in handling. If your position on the bike is more comfort/touring oriented and you ride primarily on the hoods, you may have less weight on the front wheel than if you were in a more aggressive position and riding in the drops.

I own two sets of aero wheels. My training set has 50mm Gigantex rims (primarily slope sided) , CX-Ray spokes, 28/24, I forget the build. I get tossed around more on these than on my Zipp 404's. 58mm, toroidal, 18/24. Even though the Zipps are lighter and deeper, they are less affected by the wind, at least for me and my bike.

[madcow]

At 130'ish pounds I certainly can't be said to be a heavy weight. I get blown around a fair bit but have never been able to feel a difference in the wind based on wheel weight. It should be far more related to rider weight than wheel weight.

More importantly though is the rim depth and shape. I've ridden tons of aero wheels over the years, and have to admit the Lightweights were sometimes sketchy in the wind. I'd say there is little to no difference in the LW and Boras in terms of push from the wind. If handling in the wind is a big concern the best bet is to look at Enve SES or Zipp Firecrest, both of which do really well in the wind. My 6.7 Enves (60mm front and 70mm rear) handle as well or possibly better than the older 45mm Enve.

[Likes2ridefar]

Is it safe to assume the heavier a wide profile carbon wheel set is (50mm or more), the less the rider will be blown around by wind or passing traffic.



My experience says NO. It's more the shape of the rim and not the weight. Perhaps both combined influence each other when all else is equal.

I think the wider more rounded rims from companies like Zipp and HED perform significantly better than the more standard V shaped ~19mm wide carbon wheels.

[cfox]

I went from Enve 65's to Lightweight Standard III's. The Enve's were horrible in crosswinds, the LW's are fine (by fine I mean perfect). Whatever the rim depth diff is, it made a huge difference. I really don't get pushed around at all with the LW's and I weigh 145 lbs. As of last fall the Meilensteins are actually not as deep as the Standard III's, so they'd be even better in crosswinds.

[Likes2ridefar]

I went from Enve 65's to Lightweight Standard III's. The Enve's were horrible in crosswinds, the LW's are fine (by fine I mean perfect). Whatever the rim depth diff is, it made a huge difference. I really don't get pushed around at all with the LW's and I weigh 145 lbs. As of last fall the Meilensteins are actually not as deep as the Standard III's, so they'd be even better in crosswinds.

That's interesting. I weigh 10lb's more and found the standard III to be a terrifying experience while racing in Thailand 2 years ago on some steep, sketchy descents with winds.

To me the lightweights looked like a very fancy version of the reynolds 46 before reynolds added that lipsuck technology (sorry whatever it's called, but I forget) and those are about the worst handling wheels I've ever ridden.

by worst, I mean at high speeds or just generally riding around when it's windy. The assaults and higher end 46c and 46T as well as the 66mm version. All were awful for where I typically ride in NW CT with steep, curvy fast short descents.

[rice rocket]

I thought the Lightweights were just all v-shaped?

I've only ever ridden Zipp 404s pre-dimple and then some FLO 90s (blunt nose, 23mm wide, parallel brake tracks). Even at 90mm deep, they felt better than the 404s. And those felt better than my Ksyrium SLs.

[dd74]

I went from Enve 65's to Lightweight Standard III's. The Enve's were horrible in crosswinds, the LW's are fine (by fine I mean perfect). Whatever the rim depth diff is, it made a huge difference. I really don't get pushed around at all with the LW's and I weigh 145 lbs. As of last fall the Meilensteins are actually not as deep as the Standard III's, so they'd be even better in crosswinds.
cfox - I may have asked you this, I know I asked someone this, but how's the braking with the Lightweights using the included pads? My Boras Ultra 2s brake very well, as I don't get the "pulsing" that I do with Zipps.

If I go with Lightweights, I would hope the braking would be comparable to how the Boras brake.

BTW, thanks for your insight (as everyone else) about the wind factor re. these deep carbon rims.

[madcow]

Rice rocket brought up a good point when he mentioned the Ksyriums. Spoke size seems to play a large role in push from the wind. So wheels like LW and Ksyrium will definitely push more than the same wheel built with something like a CxRay.

[dd74]

Rice rocket brought up a good point when he mentioned the Ksyriums. Spoke size seems to play a large role in push from the wind. So wheels like LW and Ksyrium will definitely push more than the same wheel built with something like a CxRay.
Hmm. I know nothing about the spoke size of LWs, I only know they're carbon spokes. Would what you mention have to do with the spokes on LWs being lighter, smaller, flatter? How do they compare to CxRay spokes?

[Likes2ridefar]

Rice rocket brought up a good point when he mentioned the Ksyriums. Spoke size seems to play a large role in push from the wind. So wheels like LW and Ksyrium will definitely push more than the same wheel built with something like a CxRay.


I ride mavic elites fairly often and never really feel like they handle poorly in the wind, but the higher end mavic wheels like the SL do feel like they blow me around more so than other wheels.

the only difference I can see is the spoke edge is wider but is about the same depth as the Elite spoke.

but then I've raced a number of times on the carbone SLR which has wide, thin carbon spokes sorta like the LW wheels, and felt like it handled pretty decent especially since I thought it was going to be a really bad experience. This was in Indonesia on bad roads and crazy descents. :confused:

From what I've read, the addition of spokes doesn't really effect aerodynamics that much.

[reggiebaseball]

some thoughts,

you need to really try these wheels, at this price point.

I applaud your desire to collect information from faceless people on the interweb, and your scrutiny of those reports you have read. you are doing your homework and taking stuff with a grain of salt.

As you know, what you read tells you more about the riders than the gear.

Further, your experience will depend on your weight and how windy it really is where you are. (you do not say)

A light wheel on your steel frame will descend differently than on a Parlee Z5SL, and you do not mention the intended application for said wheel. (you do not say)


Finally, I think you are considering the wrong wheels in both cases.

Even though you can get slamming prices, doesnt mean the Mielenstein will roll better than the Standard, or that the Bora Ultra Two rolls better than the Bora Ultra one.

The wheels are different and you can own BOTH (and give up nothing tangible) if you buy Bora Ones and LW Stds


Finally, coloclimber has a comparative review on weightweenies, check it out.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=90184

He is lighter than me by a bunch but his views are spot on.

My 2c
Bora - roll baby roll, heavier rim and smooth hubs roll forever, easily repaired more common
LW- bling, lighter, stiff, faster spin up but do not maintain speed as well, so sexy that random people ask you about them


Everyday bike gets Boras and special fast day bike gets LW.

oh, and getting blown sideways on a carbon wheel is a completely secondary concern compared to making panic stops or descending hugs grades, or riding in the rain with them - I would be thinking more about that personally.

[Likes2ridefar]

oh, and getting blown sideways on a carbon wheel is a completely secondary concern compared to making panic stops or descending hugs grades, or riding in the rain with them - I would be thinking more about that personally.

fwiw, I was literally blown off the road when a freak gust nailed me two years ago during a race when using zipp 404s, the version before they went wide. but who knows if that would've happened with other wheels. probably!

carbon wheels and rain...just dont do it unless you are being paid to do it.

[dd74]

some thoughts,
I live in SoCal. The wheels are intended for just riding, i.e. climbing descending, fast flat work. Some racing. Steel frame, Campy SR EPS 11.

Thanks for the thread. I stumbled on the same one last night while trolling around.

[carpediemracing]

Not my clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8qgjyqibwY

[Likes2ridefar]

Not my clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8qgjyqibwY

great! love the guy trying to remount...

[cfox]

cfox - I may have asked you this, I know I asked someone this, but how's the braking with the Lightweights using the included pads? My Boras Ultra 2s brake very well, as I don't get the "pulsing" that I do with Zipps.

If I go with Lightweights, I would hope the braking would be comparable to how the Boras brake.

BTW, thanks for your insight (as everyone else) about the wind factor re. these deep carbon rims.
oh, man I am going to really out myself here as a $$ wheel junkie. I used to have Boras as well. I found braking on the Boras to be decent, but very squeaky unless I toed-in the pads a lot. The LWs brake better than the Boras; the brake track is very uniform and the wheels don't pulse. I think the clear coat on the Boras makes them grabbier.

[dd74]

oh, man I am going to really out myself here as a $$ wheel junkie. I used to have Boras as well. I found braking on the Boras to be decent, but very squeaky unless I toed-in the pads a lot. The LWs brake better than the Boras; the brake track is very uniform and the wheels don't pulse. I think the clear coat on the Boras makes them grabbier.
Cool. PM'd you.

[firerescuefin]

oh, man I am going to really out myself here as a $$ wheel junkie. I used to have Boras as well. I found braking on the Boras to be decent, but very squeaky unless I toed-in the pads a lot. The LWs brake better than the Boras; the brake track is very uniform and the wheels don't pulse. I think the clear coat on the Boras makes them grabbier.

Interesting... I've got some new bora 2s and don't find them grabby or squeaky with the supplied pads or the Reynolds blue.

[dd74]

Interesting... I've got some new bora 2s and don't find them grabby or squeaky with the supplied pads or the Reynolds blue.
Don't let Campy know you're using anything other than the supplied pads. They'll void your warranty.

[TPetsch]

Not my clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8qgjyqibwY

Conditions appear to be very reasonable for the guy in the car :)

[reggiebaseball]

I live in SoCal. The wheels are intended for just riding, i.e. climbing descending, fast flat work. Some racing. Steel frame, Campy SR EPS 11.

Thanks for the thread. I stumbled on the same one last night while trolling around.

ok this guy you describe is going to want Boras.

You have already made the conscious decision to not necessary go for lightest (EPS, steel rather than SR or Red and carbon), you make conscious choices based on convenience (ie, my butt likes how steel rides, and my hands like EPS)

The Boras descend great as they roll smoothly, they hold their speed better on flats and rollers because the additional rim weight, they are also more common and more repairable.

This guy should be on a set of Bora Ones.

However , the set of Nemesis tubulars on record hubs for sale for $475 in the Classifieds today rolls just as nice as the Boras, though comes with a weight penalty, and is likewise easily repairable and strong.

In almost all cases, descending, carbon braking is more technique intensive. I have had many scares on easy grades when I am rolling at 30mph downhill and someone jerks across the bike lane to make a right- braking in a panic is effortless on AL rims as you know, braking on LW or Boras requires an extra 40 feet, feathering, and nerves of steel or else I lock up and slide sideways. This is only problematic in panic stops, if I can forsee a stop ahead then I can dump speed no problem on carbon.

I think in a blind empirical test you would find that 90% of riders, maybe more, are faster on box section AL tubulars, because they can throw themselves into descents and corners and break with authority. Likewise tapping your brakes in a pack works differently with carbon than AL you have to be more attentive to not run up someones arse.

I know, for me, I "feel" like I am faster on LW or Boras, but I bet my split time on the Nemesis around my daily route is indeed faster.

I will also say that a lot of tendencies to be twitchy, jumpy or too light that people experience with ultra light wheels is also with them mounted to a 800gram carbon frame and that my steel rides nice on ultra light wheels- it feels more solid.

I am 100 kilos so stopping is hard and side wind has less effect. Riders at 140 lbs may find the opposite.

[dd74]

Good advice. Thank you, reggiebaseball. It's worth thinking about.

[Lionel]

Bora U2, they are awesome wheels. You cannot go wrong with them. I find the braking with campy new red pads in the dry absolutely perfect. As good as nemesis.

[martl]

Is it safe to assume the heavier a wide profile carbon wheel set is (50mm or more), the less the rider will be blown around by wind or passing traffic.

I've been looking at two wheel sets; the Carbonsports Meilenstein and the Campagnolo Bora Ultra 2s, and their have been numerous complaints about the Meilensteins being nearly too dangerous to ride in windy conditions simply because they're so light.

Anyway, just wondering if anyone has an opinion on this. Thanks.

My experience with standard Lightweights is that they can be tricky to ride fast (say, downhill) in a crosswind - tricky, not unmanageable. I blame the shape more than the weight.

Also it seems to depend on fork rake or frame geometry. On certain bikes it seems more noticeable than on others.

I do think "heavier wheels hold the speed better" is more myth than fact. The inertia difference between a 300g and a 500g rim is neglectible.

I played with the calculator on http://www.analyticcycling.com/ a bit and a comparison between to wheelsets with front/rear wheel Inertia of 0.04/0.05 to an otherwise identical one with 0.06/0.07 is calculated as giving you 0.038 seconds advantage over 4000m.

Maybe better demonstrated by this thought experiment: take the wheel out of the frame, hold it on the axle or put it in a truing stand, and spin it. Then brake it down to zero with your fingers. How much force did you need? How far is that amount of force gonig to drive a system of ~65-85kg (rider+bike)? :)
Picture a bike+rider a few inches off the ground, both wheels spinning at 35km/h. Now lower the bike so the wheels contact the road. Will the bike shoot forward, or will it just stop dead? If you roll a few mm, how many more mm do you get by using 500g rims instead of 300g ones?

[Lionel]

I blame the shape more than the weight.


I agree with that. My Tune/aerolite/winium low profile light carbon wheels are the best descending wheel I own. They are 1080g and very easy to position on corners et change trajectory at the last minute. Keeping them at speed on the flat is quite a bit of work though.

[soulspinner]

At 130'ish pounds I certainly can't be said to be a heavy weight. I get blown around a fair bit but have never been able to feel a difference in the wind based on wheel weight. It should be far more related to rider weight than wheel weight.

More importantly though is the rim depth and shape. I've ridden tons of aero wheels over the years, and have to admit the Lightweights were sometimes sketchy in the wind. I'd say there is little to no difference in the LW and Boras in terms of push from the wind. If handling in the wind is a big concern the best bet is to look at Enve SES or Zipp Firecrest, both of which do really well in the wind. My 6.7 Enves (60mm front and 70mm rear) handle as well or possibly better than the older 45mm Enve.

Thanks for posting. You have the opportunity to try all this stuff and many of us dont. Love the fairwheel bike site. Helped me choose hubs 4 next wheel build. Great reviews ...........