Serotta R & D

[pbarry]

Blog post from Ben regarding frame testing and the historical underpinning of their test protocols.

http://serotta.com/time-to-grin-and-bear-it/

“Testing…1,2,3…Testing”

Behold the body of our new F5 and S5 fork! It’s so fresh out of the mold in our carbon composites facility in Poway, Calif., that we just want to put it on a bike and ride it.F5 Fork Prototype

But we can’t. We have to grin and bear the wait.

First comes a battery of tests – tests that we use to measure its stiffness, strength and durability. The test data give us a clear picture of what we have designed, engineered and built. But then there is more: We still need to capture the “road feel,” so we head out onto the road and ride our prototypes. Only when we’re happy with the results – the test data and the on-the-road feel – will the fork go into production for our new race bike, the Pronto. As a bike guy’s bike guy, this threshold is one of the most exciting times. And like the eve of a holiday that you know is going to be great, the anticipation hurts. But we know it’s the right way – the only way – to move forward.

We really hate the wait because if anyone on this planet could build a fork blindfolded and tell you it will be fine and be right, it would be Mike Lopez, who leads our composites team in Poway. To me, Mike is both a composites wizard and a cycling industry sage. Someone once said to me, “Mike might forget more in a day about composites than the average bike person would learn in a lifetime,” which I didn’t agree with. I don’t think Mike is forgetting anything just yet, including how to maintain the discipline to continue to do things the right way even though he has the experience to be able to justify taking shortcuts. More than anything else we like Mike because we happen to share the view that you learn much more from breaking things than simply building them and then watching them ride down the road. If you take this faster, easier shortcut you never know what margin of success you have, whether the product is good or how long it will last. We also long ago agreed that if anyone should be a test dummy, it should be me, not one of our customers.

Our beloved bike industry, as a whole, apparently doesn’t always agree. In time, I’m guessing consumer protection protocols will catch up, but for now this is an industry that trusts itself a little too much. It has a history of doing things just because someone who is ready to pay, or someone in sales or marketing asks “can you do this?” and we say “yes” because we can and making stuff is fun. As a confident young frame builder I felt the same way – until 1988, that is.
Andy Hampsten became the first American to win the Giro d'Italia in 1988, riding a Serotta.

Andy Hampsten became the first American to win the Giro d’Italia in 1988, riding a Serotta.

Back then, with more than 10,000 frames delivered since 1972 and an unbelievably low failure rate of less than 0.05 percent, we changed tubing suppliers and suddenly found out the hard way not to take bicycle building for granted. In our fifth season of building bikes for the famous 7-Eleven Pro Team, suddenly we had one, then several failures in the field. Although nobody was injured, results were affected and most of all there was a cost to the confidence and trust of our customers, not to mention our pride and integrity. Even today, I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I had the first call from the team in Europe. I was absolutely devastated, dumbstruck and felt blindsided because we had no idea why the frames failed or what was at the root of the problem.

We immediately went to work with two third-party testing facilities – one at nearby Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and the other at a private testing company – to find answers, and from the answers, a path forward. Within a few weeks we knew well what had gone wrong. Poor material from a new supplier was ultimately the culprit, but I knew that blaming the supplier was not the solution. The team trusted us to deliver bicycles that would never fail under race conditions, just as we had for the previous four seasons, and we were responsible for letting them down.

I made the decision then and there to never again be at the mercy of trust. From that point forward we immediately instituted in-the-lab testing programs that have become an integral part of who we are and everything we build. In many ways, from a design and innovation perspective this crossroads freed us to continue to create our own path forward.

Building and riding prototypes always will be a significant part of product development. “Road feel” is subjective and doesn’t accurately measure performance or predict longevity or safety. And as for the value of experience, we also understand that there are many, many variables at play in determining whether a product is barely adequate vs. great. Exhaustive testing protects us all from unearned optimism. And testing – in the lab and out on the road – takes time.

Recently I’ve said that drilling extra holes at critical points in metal tubes and the use of disc brakes on road bikes are two common practices that we believe are still insufficiently proven to be universally OK. While it’s always nice to be the first at something, if we have to choose between being first or being the best, we’ll take being the best every time. And we will always, always be the safest. We’ll continue testing those options – along with our new front fork – and we guarantee there will be sufficient testing behind it before we deliver an order.

In the meantime, hoping to see you out on the road,
Ben

[firerescuefin]

Wasn't one of those failures the reason A. Hampsten had Slawta build him his bikes.

[tmf]

Does anyone have specifics on what types of failures the frames were having?

I had one of the True Temper 7-11 team frames, and it developed a crack on the downtube between the shifter bosses (during the Mt. Crested Butte stage race...). I was very lucky it didn't fail crossing one of the cattle guards. :eek:

[jr59]

To me, and IMO;

This shows a lack of R&D.

Not a positive at all. In fact, just the opposite!
A total lack of R&D. They changed tubing without any R&D!

[firerescuefin]

To me, and IMO;

This shows a lack of R&D.

Not a positive at all. In fact, just the opposite!
A total lack of R&D. They changed tubing without any R&D!

I think Ben readily admits his past ignorance...while saying "never again" pretty clearly. They have taken plenty of heat lately (unfair IMO) for being too conservative with regard to their testing. Coming from his perspective (given this story)...it makes more sense.

[TPetsch]

Thanks for posting that Blog Post, it was an interesting read. ...Sheds some insight on Serottas thoughts on a topic that was discussed here recently.

[Grant McLean]

This shows a lack of R&D.

Not a positive at all. In fact, just the opposite!
A total lack of R&D. They changed tubing without any R&D!

It happened 25 years ago. I think it's suppose to be a positive that
they learned a very important lesson a long time ago that they continue
to follow this day.

-g

[rnhood]

No different in corporate entities with big R&D budgets (like the one I work for). Its a matter of diligence, not so much R&D - though its related. You want to change a part to save money, or potentially offer more value to the customer (although its almost always the former), testing is paramount. Its an unacceptable risk to implement the new part just because it has a UL recognized label or some other agency approval.

[e-RICHIE]

From the 2006 thread atmo -

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=206130&postcount=25

[cash05458]

I could be wrong but I get the feeling that Richard does not like Ben and his bikes...? nothing wrong with that of course...but is that the general idea from Sachs about Serotta?

[Peter B]

I could be wrong but I get the feeling that Richard does not like Ben and his bikes...? nothing wrong with that of course...but is that the general idea from Sachs about Serotta?

That's not the way I read his linked post. Sounded like a defense of Ben-as-builder to me.

[CNY rider]

If you want to know Richard's opinion wouldn't it be better to just ask him?

[echelon_john]

I don't know the answer to that, but reading the thread Richard referenced, I'm not seeing any dislike--passive or otherwise--toward Serotta. Quite the opposite, in this case. True Temper had QC problems that are pretty well documented.


I could be wrong but I get the feeling that Richard does not like Ben and his bikes...? nothing wrong with that of course...but is that the general idea from Sachs about Serotta?

[jr59]

From the 2006 thread atmo -

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=206130&postcount=25


This is more or less IMO; one of the best things that Mr. Sachs has written and I have read.
Thanks ritchie!

[cash05458]

you are prolly right...I read it as abit more edgy but think I was wrong...no idea really...maybe he has given an opinion before? Would be interesting anyhow...

[happycampyer]

That's not the way I read his linked post. Sounded like a defense of Ben-as-builder to me.That's how I read it as well. Ben's blog leaves out details than have been given on this subject over the years. It wasn't just that Serotta switched suppliers—True Temper was a new sponsor of the team, and Serotta was required to use their tubing. In an interview (http://www.roadbikeaction.com/fly.aspx?layout=content&taxid=96&cid=75) that appeared a couple of years after Richard's post, Ben explained the situation in more detail:

"They invited us to make the bikes as exceptional as we could, and one thing we did was bend the chainstays, which was something we had started doing with the Olympic track bikes to provide more heel clearance. The accidental discovery was that the riders said it made the bike stiffer and ride better. Most people thought the bikes got damaged in shipping when they saw the chainstays. That was when True Temper came along. They had great enthusiasm and wanted to get in on the high-end scene and Ochowicz wanted more money for the team.

Around this time we also started getting pressure to build the bikes lighter. Lighter than we wanted, actually, and we didn’t have the backbone to push back. Between the team’s prodding and True Temper’s insistence on reliability, we started using thinner wall tubes, and it didn’t work out. To this day I still remember getting the first call about a broken frame. By the end of the spring campaign we probably had ten broken frames, but it might as well have been a hundred. It was such a shock because we had never seen failures like that before. True Temper was very responsible and wanted to learn what the cause was so they could learn from it. For the Tour de France we built new frames with heavier tubing, but by the end of the season the relationship was pretty damaged."

[cash05458]

"Most people thought the bikes got damaged in shipping when they saw the chainstays."

That one makes me chuckle...that is going back a ways...

[e-RICHIE]

I could be wrong but I get the feeling that Richard does not like Ben and his bikes...? nothing wrong with that of course...but is that the general idea from Sachs about Serotta?

That's a terrible thing to say and to write here. And it's the furthest from the truth, too. We have been friends since the early '70s as well as peers in the trade. And for the longest time, I was among the brand's staunchest supporters here on this board when so many others wanted to take potshots at it (and Ben) for anything and everything.

Ben (the company...) wasn't the only entity caught out by True Temper's rush to take over the top of the food chain back then. It was an era that preceded nonferrous materials being accepted in the peloton. It was an era in which other steel suppliers were susceptible to competition. And it was an era in which someone at True Temper (a company that was owned by Emhart, Allegheny International, and then Black + Decker in the course of five years...) found a butting machine in a corner of the factory and wondered how to put it back into use - originally it was part of their golf shaft fabrication situation atmo - and someone suggested making bicycle tubing. Within two years True Temper was a player. And then they decided to get real fancy with their RCX material. Serotta (and others, too) was collateral damage in the material supplier's rush to take even more of the pie away from the traditional European mills.

[cash05458]

Hey...apologies Richard...misread and misunderstood your link...t was a very long day at work...very sorry...

[firerescuefin]

.

[e-RICHIE]

Hey...apologies Richard...misread and misunderstood your link...t was a very long day at work...very sorry...
.


Accepted - no worries.

[cash05458]

thanks...meant no offense at all...honest...read quickly and had no idea of history or attitude...just a tired off the cuff read and speak and my fault...

[pbarry]

My bad for not quoting the entire post. Fixed. The context is important.

[mike p]

Whatever mistakes were made all those years ago Serotta survived and even prospered. Their downfall came many years later when they strayed from those racing roots.

Mike

"Around this time we also started getting pressure to build the bikes lighter. Lighter than we wanted, actually, and we didn’t have the backbone to push back. Between the team’s prodding and True Temper’s insistence on reliability, we started using thinner wall tubes, and it didn’t work out. To this day I still remember getting the first call about a broken frame. By the end of the spring campaign we probably had ten broken frames, but it might as well have been a hundred. It was such a shock because we had never seen failures like that before. True Temper was very responsible and wanted to learn what the cause was so they could learn from it. For the Tour de France we built new frames with heavier tubing, but by the end of the season the relationship was pretty damaged."

[e-RICHIE]

thanks...meant no offense at all...honest...read quickly and had no idea of history or attitude...just a tired off the cuff read and speak and my fault...

We're past it atmo. Here -:p:) .

Anyway, re the OP and the linked text, Ben got jobbed - period. True Temper screwed the pooch. their RC tubing was, according to my opinion - some of the single best material EVER, especially considering the era. It wasn't the gauge, the butt transitions, or even that it was seamed. It was remarkable Cro-Mo in an era in which it was sorely needed. Then they decided to heat treat it (RCX) and make all sorts of changes - and eventually lost it all as well as alienated so many of the cats who helped them build a brand from nothing.

[pbarry]

It happened 25 years ago. I think it's suppose to be a positive that
they learned a very important lesson a long time ago that they continue
to follow this day.

-g

Exactly. You read the whole post. I should have quoted everything Ben said. The last two paragraphs bring the lesson learned in '88 around to the present.

Building and riding prototypes always will be a significant part of product development. “Road feel” is subjective and doesn’t accurately measure performance or predict longevity or safety. And as for the value of experience, we also understand that there are many, many variables at play in determining whether a product is barely adequate vs. great. Exhaustive testing protects us all from unearned optimism. And testing – in the lab and out on the road – takes time.

Recently I’ve said that drilling extra holes at critical points in metal tubes and the use of disc brakes on road bikes are two common practices that we believe are still insufficiently proven to be universally OK. While it’s always nice to be the first at something, if we have to choose between being first or being the best, we’ll take being the best every time. And we will always, always be the safest. We’ll continue testing those options – along with our new front fork – and we guarantee there will be sufficient testing behind it before we deliver an order.

[pbarry]

We're past it atmo. Here -:p:) .

Anyway, re the OP and the linked text, Ben got jobbed - period. True Temper screwed the pooch. their RC tubing was, according to my opinion - some of the single best material EVER, especially considering the era. It wasn't the gauge, the butt transitions, or even that it was seamed. It was remarkable Cro-Mo in an era in which it was sorely needed. Then they decided to heat treat it (RCX) and make all sorts of changes - and eventually lost it all as well as alienated so many of the cats who helped them build a brand from nothing.

Richard, thanks for bringing your perspective. I'm wondering how much the True Temper tubing changed after heat treating was started: Did it become significantly less straight, enough that you needed to orient a bend so it was in the vertical plane? [Or, is that just part of what you do as a frame builder with any tube?] Did you observe any seam failures with RCX?

[e-RICHIE]

Richard, thanks for bringing your perspective. I'm wondering how much the True Temper tubing changed after heat treating was started: Did it become significantly less straight, enough that you needed to orient a bend so it was in the vertical plane? [Or, is that just part of what you do as a frame builder with any tube?] Did you observe any seam failures with RCX?

The seam was what they used to make a sheet into a tube. Once a tube, it played no role and, as far as I am aware, its role was played. In other words, that it was a seamed tube rather than drawn was not part of any equations except how TT decided they could best make a tube.

I never used RCX because I thought it was a dumb idea from day one. It had an elongation factor (if that is what it's called...) of 8 percent - and that was very low. The tubes needed more ability to bend. The RCX was brittle, and i am using that as a lay term. Add to the known (or later to be know) issues that some makers were adding front derailleur bosses to the frames AFTER they were made - a HUGE no no atmo - and you were adding insult to injury so to speak. The company also had other running errors during this time period, the worst culprit of which involved many batches of pipes oriented incorrectly prior to length trims, making it such that parts were being sent out with butts in the wrong places by a large margin. It was as if someone added a 12" gap in the saw one day and, until it was caught, the pipes had their thick and thin sections in the exact opposite areas of where there were designed to be.

[likebikes]

andy hampsten's bike was a landshark, not a serotta because of quality problems, no?

but a landshark with serotta paint and decals is still a serotta, no?

[happycampyer]

andy hampsten's bike was a landshark, not a serotta because of quality problems, no?

but a landshark with serotta paint and decals is still a serotta, no?The bikes ridden by 7-11 in 1988 were "Huffys," with 7-11 team paint and "Huffy" on the downtube and seat tube (although "Serotta" appeared on the chainstays of the Serotta-built bikes). The official, behind-the-scenes builder was Serotta, but because of the problems with the True Temper tubing, some 7-11 team members had their own bikes made. Someone has attempted to create a timeline of the builders of the 7-11 bikes here (http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/2000/04/history-of-bikes-used-by-team-7-eleven.html
), and the author mentions that Bob Roll had a bike made Ugo DeRosa. John Slawta had previously built bikes for Hampsten before the 7-11 days. Here's an interview with Andy in which he describes the background of the Giro-winning bike:

Historic Pro Bike: Andy Hampsten's 1988 7-Eleven Huffy Giro d'Italia (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/historic-pro-bike-andy-hampstens-1988-7-eleven-huffy-giro-ditalia)

Note that the chainstay is blank on the bike that Hampsten is riding in the photo. A Huffy built by Slawta is a Slawta. I suspect the fact that the True Temper fiasco meant that the bike that was ridden to victory in the '88 Giro was built by someone other than Serotta is a fact that still haunts Ben Serotta (and has a lot to do with Serotta's fanaticism about testing and quality control, including machining most of their parts instead of sourcing them from suppliers, etc.).

[evo111@comcast.net]

e-richie

"...adding front derailleur bosses to the frames AFTER they were made - a HUGE no no atmo -"

Can you enlighten us on this. Thanks.

I know you built frames from True Temper tubing in the past - which tube set did you use?

[oldpotatoe]

andy hampsten's bike was a landshark, not a serotta because of quality problems, no?

but a landshark with serotta paint and decals is still a serotta, no?

Yes

No

[Ahneida Ride]

I heard that ....

Some frames were built specifically for hilly stages.

They were loved so much, there were used ubiquitously, not as designed.

[pbarry]

I heard that ....

Some frames were built specifically for hilly stages.

They were loved so much, there were used ubiquitously, not as designed.

Believable. Ritchey had an ultralight steel frame in the 90's with, iirc, a 140lb. weight limit, and a one year warranty..

[cmbicycles]

e-richie

"...adding front derailleur bosses to the frames AFTER they were made - a HUGE no no atmo -"

Can you enlighten us on this. Thanks.

I know you built frames from True Temper tubing in the past - which tube set did you use?

I would assume that since the heat treated rcx tubes were very brittle, welding/brazing a der boss would make it even more brittle and more prone to failure.

[BenSerotta]

Greetings cyclists. I can to tell you up front that I reluctantly enter into the fray by posting this....

I thought that some of the commentary in response to my recent R&D testing blog (which someone then copied and posted on this forum) merit further comment. Here goes:

The basis of that blog post was to tell a truthful story about an important milestone in the evolution of our business that took place twenty-five years ago and in so doing provide an inside perspective on our approach to product. Some readers understood this and others clearly did not. It seems to me that there are those who want to take us to task for how we took a hard lesson and turned it into a lifetime positive..

From my perspective, twenty-five years ago there were no small builders doing lab-style testing and few large manufacturers did, either. We were the first of the small builders to adopt regular testing protocols (other than riding). Of course, we wish we had made that decision even sooner; hindsight always gives clear vision. Like the majority of small builders today, we looked to our past experiences, listened to our vendors and listened to our customers and made decisions. Just like today, our customers (in this case the 7-11 team) pressed both the tubing sponsor and ourselves to provide lighter and lighter product. In fact we built many frames that were not intended for long-term use (meaning 1-3 months) and we did in fact make that point clear to the team. So a second regret I have is that I didn’t have the courage of confidence to tell them they didn’t know enough about what they were asking for. We were supposed to be the experts and we acquiesced to their demands for lighter bikes, and more money that would come from a new sponsor. Another lesson learned. As an aside, over the years, many of these bikes (short term use) have been sold and resold… so much for heeding warnings of longevity.

I’d also like to say that the tubing supplier worked diligently and cooperatively to come to grips with what was causing the failures. They had in fact underestimated the difference between the rigors of world-class professional racing (in the spring classics) and everything else. It would be appropriate to note too that hundreds of frames built with the same tubing that was used to make the team bikes remained faithful in the field to their owners for years and I am sure some are still out there. There was never a need for a product recall.

During that fateful spring (1988), we faced a curious conundrum. The tubing supplier had paid to be a part of the team and a part of the process. I felt that until testing revealed the root cause of the material problems, we should take nothing for granted, wondering too if we had unwittingly changed anything in our process that would have caused the failures. In short, we treated the sponsor as a partner, and in a manner that if the tables were turned we’d want to be treated- with respect. During that time, the team was clamoring for new frames that would be “just like the ones we built for the previous four seasons,” but we also strongly believed in integrity. How could we build frames from Columbus (solve the problem of team needing bikes immediately?) and put another supplier’s logo on board? (Oddly different from someone paying us to put another bike brand’s name on a frame we made, which we did many times, for many brands). This hesitancy is what initiated allowing a few frames to be built by other builders with other materials for portions of that season. It came as a great irony that the team was very happy with the bikes provided the following year by Merckx that were quite substantially heavier than our earlier heavier, failsafe bikes.

Fast forward to today, it would be fair to say we have a conservative approach to change having been embedded in our DNA way back then. Not because we don’t believe in change or want to change, but we are conservative in how and why and when changes are made, whether they are major or minor, new models or tweaks. It is simply more important to me that we are right, honest and that the things we say about our product can be said with the same integrity as the products are built. It is not my place nor intention to pass judgment on other builders, many of whom I have the greatest respect for as talented craftspeople (there are some female builders out there too!) and/or simply as good people. Further, I’m not here to tell you not to buy another builder’s bike that has holes drilled in places we think is a bad idea or for any other reason. I’m just telling you we don’t and why we don’t. Drilling holes is easy. We have the talent and the equipment to make/do pretty much anything. We’re not challenged in that regard I assure you.

Next week we’ll be showing (blog) photos of a road bike with disc brakes that was built last fall. We all love the way it looks and the few who have ridden it like the ride a lot too. We make bikes and something different, something new is always exciting. But as I’ll explain in my blog, we’re not sure we will bring the bike to production because we’re not convinced it is a product that is ready for market. Nothing to do with the frame. It’s the braking systems. Candidly many people behind the technology don’t think bikes like this should be brought to market either….while they may be pro-use safe, they are not in our opinion consumer-use safe. But that’s for next week’s blog.

Thanks for your time and caring,
Ben

PS…
I’ve been chided both on this forum and within our company for my complete lack of participation on any cycling forum. For the record that’s principally for three reasons: 1) I’d rather be doing something that feels productive to me; 2) There are people around me who have always brought my attention to whatever meaningful information that is in the forums, so I’ve been fortunate in that regard; 3) I take everything said about my company (no less about myself) very personally and I realize I could easily get sucked into endless volleys of drivel, explaining, defending or whatever… which brings me back to my #1 reason, I’d rather spend my time doing something else, something productive. And by the way, whoever came up with that expression, ‘it’s not personal, it’s just business’ has to be a true jackass. Anyone that ever accomplished anything of real meaning or value achieved that goal through personal commitment.

How anyone else spends their time is a personal choice, and by no means am I passing judgment on anyone’s use of forums like these and I absolutely get that they can be a good source of information and entertainment. I do visit forums in other genres from time to time, recently visiting some regarding guitars, cars and appliances and I get that in any electronic community there is great, thoughtful commentary, always peppered with posters who just want to be heard in an arena where everyone with time on their hands has an equally high soapbox.

[rnhood]

Thanks for your comments and participation Ben, we appreciate your insight. My company also conducts endurance testing so I can relate well to the air cylinder fixtures that Serotta Carbon posted pictures of earlier (testing forks). Testing is expensive and time consuming, and some companies bypass these critical steps and take unintelligent risks. The fact that Serotta is doing this is a mark in your favor, and a big one at that. It instills confidence when one purchases your products.

I hope to see more of the "behind the scenes" activities in the blogs.

[Bulldozer27]

Greetings cyclists. I can to tell you up front that I reluctantly enter into the fray by posting this....

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I hope you and Bill don't get caught up in feeling the need to defend/explain/clarify/correct everything that gets posted on this forum with regards to Serotta. I've been on a certain mountain bike forum for years, and during that time, I've seen at least two manufacturers alienate forum members (and ultimately kill sales) because they got sucked into all that is bad about internet forums. To some degree, a manufacturer having a presence ina place such as this a lose/lose scenario.

[jpw]

Next week we’ll be showing (blog) photos of a road bike with disc brakes that was built last fall. We all love the way it looks and the few who have ridden it like the ride a lot too. We make bikes and something different, something new is always exciting. But as I’ll explain in my blog, we’re not sure we will bring the bike to production because we’re not convinced it is a product that is ready for market. Nothing to do with the frame. It’s the braking systems. Candidly many people behind the technology don’t think bikes like this should be brought to market either….while they may be pro-use safe, they are not in our opinion consumer-use safe. But that’s for next week’s blog.



Looking forward to this blog entry with keen anticipation.

The bike sounds very intriguing, and without giving away confidential details, has it been prototyped with a 130mm or a 135mm rear axle, and I wonder what the fork span and tire clearance measurements are?

[Bruce K]

Are you asking is it a cross / Fondo bike, or just a road bike?

Or something else?

It begs the question, if road bikes with discs aren't consumer safe, why did the industry push forward with cross bikes with discs for the consumer, and why do some manufacturers seem to be phasing out canti frames at the top end?

Excellent stuff from Ben that should lead to some interesting conversation

BK

[jpw]

Are you asking is it a cross / Fondo bike, or just a road bike?

Or something else?

It begs the question, if road bikes with discs aren't consumer safe, why did the industry push forward with cross bikes with discs for the consumer, and why do some manufacturers seem to be phasing out canti frames at the top end?

Excellent stuff from Ben that should lead to some interesting conversation

BK

Colnago and several other manufacturers are offering a road bike with disc brakes in 135mm axle spacing. I'm curious to know how Ben sees that with this disc prototype.

Recent thread on this subject;

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=126314&highlight=volagi

[Ahneida Ride]

By chance, many moons ago, I ran into the guy who was significantly
involved in the building, design and testing of the legendary F1 fork.
He was not a "formal" Serotta employee.

He was anal about quality and safety.
My Legend had a F1 for many years. Great fork.
The F1 is a testimony to Serotta's quest for quality.

[happycampyer]

I suspect Ben watched (or read about) 'cross Nats in Verona this past January and it reminded him eerily of the True Temper debacle in 1988. The industry pushes for innovation to sell more bikes, but the braking technology isn't quite ready for prime time, or at least not for Joe Consumer who is unlikely to understand the limits of the equipment. Maybe bikes could come with a warning label on the toptube: "Do not ride in cold, wet, muddy conditions; on steep descents lasting x miles if you weigh over y pounds, etc."

Of course, I still want a gravel road bike with discs...

[54ny77]

Land Shark (Leipheimer's):

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3358/3331480040_dd2dd8f99e_o.jpg

[jpw]

I suspect Ben watched (or read about) 'cross Nats in Verona this past January and it reminded him eerily of the True Temper debacle in 1988. The industry pushes for innovation to sell more bikes, but the braking technology isn't quite ready for prime time, or at least not for Joe Consumer who is unlikely to understand the limits of the equipment. Maybe bikes could come with a warning label on the toptube: "Do not ride in cold, wet, muddy conditions; on steep descents lasting x miles if you weigh over y pounds, etc."

Of course, I still want a gravel road bike with discs...

I've been riding with a front disc brake for the last three years. I've never had an issue other than an organic pad wearing away in bad conditions in just one ride.

why would joe consumer and disc brakes not mix well? a calpier rim brake going down hill in the wet can be quite 'exhilarating'.

[happycampyer]

I've been riding with a front disc brake for the last three years. I've never had an issue other than an organic pad wearing away in bad conditions in just one ride.

why would joe consumer and disc brakes not mix well? a calpier rim brake going down hill in the wet can be quite 'exhilarating'.i was thinking of stories like this:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/news/bright-future-for-disc-brakes-fades-briefly-under-a-coating-of-verona-mud_271112

Apparently, riders with cantis didn't experience the same problems. Granted, it seemed like a "perfect storm" of bad conditions. I have BB7s on an old YBB and have never had issues either. Frankly, carbon wheels in the wet and carbon clinchers in a variety of conditions can be hazardous, so it's not as if people aren't taking risks with their equipment choices.

[jpw]

i was thinking of stories like this:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/news/bright-future-for-disc-brakes-fades-briefly-under-a-coating-of-verona-mud_271112

Apparently, riders with cantis didn't experience the same problems. Granted, it seemed like a "perfect storm" of bad conditions. I have BB7s on an old YBB and have never had issues either. Frankly, carbon wheels in the wet and carbon clinchers in a variety of conditions can be hazardous, so it's not as if people aren't taking risks with their equipment choices.

I'm really looking forward to Ben's disc blog this coming week. I hope there are photos of the prototype, as I want to see where the caliper attaches to the frame, chain or seat stay. My money is on chain stay.

[bfd]

And by the way, whoever came up with that expression, ‘it’s not personal, it’s just business’ has to be a true jackass. Anyone that ever accomplished anything of real meaning or value achieved that goal through personal commitment.

Really Ben, you don't know who came up with the expression?! Guess what, its from a MOVIE!

Here's a hint:

Tom: Your father wouldn't want to hear this! This is business, not personal, Sonny!

Tom: Even the shooting of your father was business, not personal, Sonny!

Sonny: You're taking this very personal. Tom, this is business and this man is taking it very very personal.

MICHAEL (to Sonny): It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business.

I bet you can guess the movie....:eek::butt::banana:;)